Because "we" made then that way. The large majority of MMO players are quite happy playing easy themepark games that are fun and casual. If that wasnt the case then the investors wouldnt be putting money into that type of game.
The thing most people on this site fail to realise is that Most People Disagree With You. These forums have an unrepresentatively high amount of Sandbox / Ex SWG players on them. For every 1 post on mmorpg.com saying themeparks are lame and sandboxes are the way of the future, there are probably 5000 people that are happily playing themeparks and not posting on forums.
You are the minority. That doesnt make you wrong. You are probably right, but the majority of MMO players just want to have fun, and themeparks give them that.
That may or may not be true. Difficult to tell, really.
Its possible that its BECAUSE easy, casual-friendly MMOs are all that's really being made these days, thats all that people are playing. Such games are a lot easier to develop, after all. If a challenging AAA title were to emerge with death penalties, slow leveling, complex battle mechanics, and and a much slower solo experience vs grouping, it could very well become popular.
In other words, just because most fast food restaraunts sell hamburgers, that doesn't mean the people want nothing but hamburders. (suddenly I have a craving for tacos. guess I know what I'm getting for lunch today)
I've played WoW, Rift, am currently playing SWTOR, and have tried a lot of other casual-friendly MMOs, not because they're what I prefer, but more because they're what's available. I really wonder just how many of those millions of subscribers WoW has feel the same way. I am curious as to whether the customers are really dictating what developers produce, or if developers are dictating what players pay for.
Simple test, while watching TV and the commercials are on keep track of any/all that are "fast and easy", hell even 5 hour energy is being advertised as faster with less hassle than coffee. If coffee is considered "tough" we as humans are doomed.
I just finished cleaning my keyboard from the coffee I spilled laughing. If coffee is considered tough.... ROFL....one of the funniest things I have ever read here! Thank you for making me laugh!!
I liked dark souls, it was challenging enough to make me think seriously about how to get through things and if I died it wasn't because the game was too hard, it was because I simply tried to play like other games conditioned me to(go forward pwn all with 1 button)though sometimes the deaths were cheap... I'm looking at you Red Wyvern!
It's hard to find a good difficulty level but in games nowaday it's like they were designed for toddlers in term of difficulty.
Because WoW targetted the casual audience and won big. Then Nintendo targetted the casual audience and won big. So publishers figured, hm, let's just aim everything at non gamers, lets copy WoW!
MMOs have been getting smaller in scale, easier and simpler in content, and more solo focused as each year passes. It's funny, the games become less like MMOs, and scaller and with less features, the more money and devs that get pumped into them. Games released by 30 man teams for peanuts back in 2001 would blow the minds of people playing MMOs now. "How did they manage all that! Must have like, a country backing them!" No, they had passion and a good mind for game design, and no 3000lb publishing gorilla screaming MORE LIKE WOW MROE LEIK WOW!1!"
because its easier for the devs to code crappy easy and incomplete stuff and still get their hands on our wallet. The more we are willing to pay them for crap, the lazier they become and still become millionaire. No matter how much people complain about a new mmo being incomplete, easy ass, and generic, if they still sub and resub and resub then we are doomed within the mmo genre
Because computers are in every household, and the average person is an idiot.
Do you know for sure that the average IQ of the old MMORPG population was much higher than the average IQ of the current MMORPG population?
Logic would dictate that as the computer became more mainstream and found it's way into more homes the average user was less technically inclined. Therefore the average user most likely in the time of early MMO's was more intelligent than the average user of today.
I gotta agree with this. 10years ago, if you were a PC gamer, then you most likely built your PC yourself for fun. 10 years ago games WERE more complex.
Now, everyone has a computer or laptop that they chose because it had a "pretty case" and there are many many people out there that just use it for facebook, twitter, youtube and other inane social media crap that are as thick as 2 short planks!
But were those old users actually on average more intelligent, IQ-wise, or had just a larger interest in computers? The reason I ask, is because I know several people who are highly intelligent but chose natural sciences, economics and/or mathematics over computer science. In other words: they may be great in subjects such as physics and mathematics, but have significantely lower knowledge in computer science.
What's been most annoying as someone wanting a game that offers more challenge and a broader spectrum of experiences all around than WoW and it's clones have to offer, is that many games scrambling for a piece of WoW pie not only lack challenge, but also provide a zero risk & zero consequence safety world in which to chase these non-challenges.
I personally don't get it. Show me a game like this that says 'Here, walk down this safe path to epics, the only way to lose is to miss when trying to click on the NPC with the giant '!' or '?' above their heads' and I guarantee you it's an experience completely devoid of any adventure.
What a stale and lifeless experience the combination of 'easy' & 'zero risk' make. I memorize some dance steps, follow their linear path and get handed the best loot there is. For what? I didn't earn it, it's as exciting as playing with all cheats enabled.
I'm sure it's the majority that are OK with this. These games are aimed at taking advantage of the largest common denominator and there's a hell of a lot more idiots than geniuses. They want the best the game has to offer - NOW - and they don't care that it's the same crap everyone else already has, and they don't want to work for it. They want to click on some baskets in a field and be dripping in epics so they can stand around in town showing off to eachother that they managed to remember to breathe long enough to hand in another menial task or make it through a fully scripted and predictable encounter.
The WoW clones will probably exist for years to come, catering to this breed. That's fine by me, they can stay there. I'm just glad to finally see some games on the horizon that are aiming to bring back the sense of accomplishment that comes from actually taking on something challenging, possibly requiring the commitment and teamwork needed before WoW shat all over the MMO landscape and forced us to endure seven years of fart joke quests, zero risk environments, minor challenge encounters and it's 'everyones a winner' mentality, regardless of how stupid they are.
These people *need* those games, have you read their general chat? They wouldn't succeed in anything more complex.
Wider appeal, that was easy, lol. Just like the last Presidential State of the Union didn't rate over an 8th grade reading level , I will postulate the same applies to the gaming population.
Wider appeal, that was easy, lol. Just like the last Presidential State of the Union didn't rate over an 8th grade reading level , I will postulate the same applies to the gaming population.
Meh.I think of the southpark WoW episode everytime i read these things.................gaming has been turned into another version of Burger King, people want it fast and easy, and they want it their way. Come to think of it, what most mmo players want is what i would look for in a prostitute....................
Gee, why did things seem harder to me back when I was an inexperienced kid? Why do they seem easier now that I have had a decade's worth of experience? Must be because I'm a genius and everyone else sucks, amirite?
What a load.
Unless by "hard" you mean "tedious", games never have been particularly hard.
Then again, inevitably these sorts of threads are started by people who aren't top ranked PvPers and haven't cleared even basic raid cotent, let alone the stuff that only a fraction of a percentage of the playerbase can manage. So, I say again...
Not just mmo's, for example dragon age origins(am using it as by bioware too) wouldn't tax the IQ of a frozen chicken.
Also don't forget the movies. Star Trek XI for example there.
The arguments are along the lines of easy sells, as long as it's easy enough the devs/publishers don't need to put as much effort into making it and so can add a little extra profit margin.
Same thing for as long as it looks good enough people will pay so why bother.
There's also the me, me, me, know, know, know.
Also don't forget the pop psychology of rewarding people for coming in last(or in this case rewarding you for being an idiot).
And there's always the argument that the society is being dumbed down in general for whatever reason.
Ultimately I think you are going to just have to put up with things for the jackass, add generation.
I've gotta agree with this post in some way, because MMORPGs are continuing to evolve in certain ways, by having certain convenience things (such as the lack of severe death penalities) and placing challenge elsewhere. In TERA's case that challenge is in it's combat system and it by far looks like the only MMORPG where the art of healing is an actual challenge. A lot more than the typical snoozefest we are used to and I am looking forward to that.
SW:TOR isn't the MMORPG that all new MMORPGs should be judged by, because the game was concieved from uninspired devs who believed that copying WoW and making it more streamlined in certain areas would yield better results than WoW.
I would guess you answerd your own question. The majority of mmo players are brain-dead, and can not be bothered with challenges.
That's a Paradox, since you made a brain-dead comment about brain-dead MMO players, which means you are also brain-dead even if not an MMO player, but if you are a MMO player you are also brain-dead, but you cannot be brain-dead even though you just said you are or else you would be too brain-dead to comment.....circular logic overdrive engaged.....etc etc etc
I would guess you answerd your own question. The majority of mmo players are brain-dead, and can not be bothered with challenges.
That's a Paradox, since you made a brain-dead comment about brain-dead MMO players, which means you are also brain-dead even if not an MMO player, but if you are a MMO player you are also brain-dead, but you cannot be brain-dead even though you just said you are or else you would be too brain-dead to comment.....circular logic overdrive engaged.....etc etc etc
Because ADHD kids of next generation need MMO equivalent of special olympics to stay amused.
EVERYONE'S A WINNER, YAY!!!
This ^ ^
I do like casual games at times myself, then I like harder games at times. Seems like the options for something hard or challenging are getting fewer and fewer.
I played TOR the 1st month it was out. I think I died once or twice in the 1st 35 levels. A friend of mine picked it up and we co op played some. He mentioned the lack of challenge while we were duoing heroics.
Not picking on TOR in particular, but it probably is the easiest MMO I have played lately. Even Rift was more of a challenge and it was pretty easy.
Challenge in SWTOR does exist, but probably not till you get into certain conent with certain classes in certain gear, then it can be a death-wipe cycle that'll cost you thousands in repair bills. For the biggest part of the game the challenge is not falling asleep while space-barring past 50% of the game's point in existing. Unless you like story.
Re: SWTOR, the game does ramp up in difficulty the higher you get in level. You'll be seeing more gold and silver mobs in your quests, especially past 30. I'm not saying it'll make you wish you had a "save game" feature, just that it does get harder (and can vary by class).
Color coded enemies telling you what will kick your behind or not does not equate to "challenge."
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
SWTOR is actually on the harder scale compared to say, WoW. It starts off easy but the difficulty level slowly rises, and past 30 you really can't go into all battles and win by pressing random buttons unless you greatly outlevel your opponents. I found this refreshing compared to other MMOs I've tried in the recent years.
But yeah, I think the game definitely starts off way too easy, and despite one of my friends constantly complaining that it's way too hard, I wouldn't mind more difficulty at the higher levels, either.
Comments
That may or may not be true. Difficult to tell, really.
Its possible that its BECAUSE easy, casual-friendly MMOs are all that's really being made these days, thats all that people are playing. Such games are a lot easier to develop, after all. If a challenging AAA title were to emerge with death penalties, slow leveling, complex battle mechanics, and and a much slower solo experience vs grouping, it could very well become popular.
In other words, just because most fast food restaraunts sell hamburgers, that doesn't mean the people want nothing but hamburders. (suddenly I have a craving for tacos. guess I know what I'm getting for lunch today)
I've played WoW, Rift, am currently playing SWTOR, and have tried a lot of other casual-friendly MMOs, not because they're what I prefer, but more because they're what's available. I really wonder just how many of those millions of subscribers WoW has feel the same way. I am curious as to whether the customers are really dictating what developers produce, or if developers are dictating what players pay for.
Because im entitled to it and I want it now? Seems to be the way all things are trending. Working for something is so 90's.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
I liked dark souls, it was challenging enough to make me think seriously about how to get through things and if I died it wasn't because the game was too hard, it was because I simply tried to play like other games conditioned me to(go forward pwn all with 1 button)though sometimes the deaths were cheap... I'm looking at you Red Wyvern!
It's hard to find a good difficulty level but in games nowaday it's like they were designed for toddlers in term of difficulty.
because its easier for the devs to code crappy easy and incomplete stuff and still get their hands on our wallet. The more we are willing to pay them for crap, the lazier they become and still become millionaire. No matter how much people complain about a new mmo being incomplete, easy ass, and generic, if they still sub and resub and resub then we are doomed within the mmo genre
But were those old users actually on average more intelligent, IQ-wise, or had just a larger interest in computers? The reason I ask, is because I know several people who are highly intelligent but chose natural sciences, economics and/or mathematics over computer science. In other words: they may be great in subjects such as physics and mathematics, but have significantely lower knowledge in computer science.
play TERA and see if you remake this post.
What's been most annoying as someone wanting a game that offers more challenge and a broader spectrum of experiences all around than WoW and it's clones have to offer, is that many games scrambling for a piece of WoW pie not only lack challenge, but also provide a zero risk & zero consequence safety world in which to chase these non-challenges.
I personally don't get it. Show me a game like this that says 'Here, walk down this safe path to epics, the only way to lose is to miss when trying to click on the NPC with the giant '!' or '?' above their heads' and I guarantee you it's an experience completely devoid of any adventure.
What a stale and lifeless experience the combination of 'easy' & 'zero risk' make. I memorize some dance steps, follow their linear path and get handed the best loot there is. For what? I didn't earn it, it's as exciting as playing with all cheats enabled.
I'm sure it's the majority that are OK with this. These games are aimed at taking advantage of the largest common denominator and there's a hell of a lot more idiots than geniuses. They want the best the game has to offer - NOW - and they don't care that it's the same crap everyone else already has, and they don't want to work for it. They want to click on some baskets in a field and be dripping in epics so they can stand around in town showing off to eachother that they managed to remember to breathe long enough to hand in another menial task or make it through a fully scripted and predictable encounter.
The WoW clones will probably exist for years to come, catering to this breed. That's fine by me, they can stay there. I'm just glad to finally see some games on the horizon that are aiming to bring back the sense of accomplishment that comes from actually taking on something challenging, possibly requiring the commitment and teamwork needed before WoW shat all over the MMO landscape and forced us to endure seven years of fart joke quests, zero risk environments, minor challenge encounters and it's 'everyones a winner' mentality, regardless of how stupid they are.
These people *need* those games, have you read their general chat? They wouldn't succeed in anything more complex.
Wider appeal, that was easy, lol. Just like the last Presidential State of the Union didn't rate over an 8th grade reading level , I will postulate the same applies to the gaming population.
Newspapers never go over that level either.
Meh.I think of the southpark WoW episode everytime i read these things.................gaming has been turned into another version of Burger King, people want it fast and easy, and they want it their way. Come to think of it, what most mmo players want is what i would look for in a prostitute....................
Gee, why did things seem harder to me back when I was an inexperienced kid? Why do they seem easier now that I have had a decade's worth of experience? Must be because I'm a genius and everyone else sucks, amirite?
What a load.
Unless by "hard" you mean "tedious", games never have been particularly hard.
Then again, inevitably these sorts of threads are started by people who aren't top ranked PvPers and haven't cleared even basic raid cotent, let alone the stuff that only a fraction of a percentage of the playerbase can manage. So, I say again...
What a load.
Not just mmo's, for example dragon age origins(am using it as by bioware too) wouldn't tax the IQ of a frozen chicken.
Also don't forget the movies. Star Trek XI for example there.
The arguments are along the lines of easy sells, as long as it's easy enough the devs/publishers don't need to put as much effort into making it and so can add a little extra profit margin.
Same thing for as long as it looks good enough people will pay so why bother.
There's also the me, me, me, know, know, know.
Also don't forget the pop psychology of rewarding people for coming in last(or in this case rewarding you for being an idiot).
And there's always the argument that the society is being dumbed down in general for whatever reason.
Ultimately I think you are going to just have to put up with things for the jackass, add generation.
I've gotta agree with this post in some way, because MMORPGs are continuing to evolve in certain ways, by having certain convenience things (such as the lack of severe death penalities) and placing challenge elsewhere. In TERA's case that challenge is in it's combat system and it by far looks like the only MMORPG where the art of healing is an actual challenge. A lot more than the typical snoozefest we are used to and I am looking forward to that.
SW:TOR isn't the MMORPG that all new MMORPGs should be judged by, because the game was concieved from uninspired devs who believed that copying WoW and making it more streamlined in certain areas would yield better results than WoW.
Why are MMOs brain-dead easy now?
I would guess you answerd your own question. The majority of mmo players are brain-dead, and can not be bothered with challenges.
That's a Paradox, since you made a brain-dead comment about brain-dead MMO players, which means you are also brain-dead even if not an MMO player, but if you are a MMO player you are also brain-dead, but you cannot be brain-dead even though you just said you are or else you would be too brain-dead to comment.....circular logic overdrive engaged.....etc etc etc
*CAN NOT COMPUTE*
This ^ ^
I do like casual games at times myself, then I like harder games at times. Seems like the options for something hard or challenging are getting fewer and fewer.
I played TOR the 1st month it was out. I think I died once or twice in the 1st 35 levels. A friend of mine picked it up and we co op played some. He mentioned the lack of challenge while we were duoing heroics.
Not picking on TOR in particular, but it probably is the easiest MMO I have played lately. Even Rift was more of a challenge and it was pretty easy.
Challenge in SWTOR does exist, but probably not till you get into certain conent with certain classes in certain gear, then it can be a death-wipe cycle that'll cost you thousands in repair bills. For the biggest part of the game the challenge is not falling asleep while space-barring past 50% of the game's point in existing. Unless you like story.
Re: SWTOR, the game does ramp up in difficulty the higher you get in level. You'll be seeing more gold and silver mobs in your quests, especially past 30. I'm not saying it'll make you wish you had a "save game" feature, just that it does get harder (and can vary by class).
Color coded enemies telling you what will kick your behind or not does not equate to "challenge."
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
SWTOR is actually on the harder scale compared to say, WoW. It starts off easy but the difficulty level slowly rises, and past 30 you really can't go into all battles and win by pressing random buttons unless you greatly outlevel your opponents. I found this refreshing compared to other MMOs I've tried in the recent years.
But yeah, I think the game definitely starts off way too easy, and despite one of my friends constantly complaining that it's way too hard, I wouldn't mind more difficulty at the higher levels, either.
Wow has become so easy it's an insult to any long time MMO player.
As the above poster said TOR is a much harder game, even for leveling. As are a lot of MMORPGs. The brain-deadness seems to be mainly a wow thing
Ever played EVE?? Not so easy at all......
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.
Edgar Allan Poe
Simple answer to the OP:
MMOs treat the first 10 to 20 levels as a tutorial phase. You get your abilities and learn how to use them.
As in other MMOs the difficulty progressively increases from that point.
---
Penalties for failure doesn't make a game hard, it makes it tedious.