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Why are MMOs brain-dead easy now?

UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

     It's Old Republic that's prompting this thread, but I'm not singling it out- they all seem to be this way.  There is literally zero challenge in the MMOS I've played lately.  I'm only level 10 in The Old Republic, but I've only died like one time- and when I DID die, I just got back up and continued fighting the monster that killed me with no apparent downside.  The death penalty in the game seems to be 'lay on the ground for 3 seconds, then get back up with full life and several seconds of invincibility'.   I've noticed that all my abilities are fluff, and in fact, I can win all the same-level fights just by using the one low-cooldown 'auto attack' type ability over and over.

    I understand that games are for 'casual' players now, whatever that means...but this just isn't any fun. When I don't have to try, the thrill goes away almost immediately. Without a risk of getting beaten, or some strategy involved, the game just feels like a really inconvenient way to watch a movie. I already learned how to press 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1 like half-a-dozen MMOs ago. "But now you're doing it with a lightsaber" isn't enough.

Age of Conan was basically the same- the only time you ever died was if you chose to push yourself into areas way outside your level. Fighting things 5 levels higher than you, you have to pay attention and try real hard. But in areas that it says you're supposed to be in, the game is so easy you're just monotonously hitting the same combinations over and over to kill the same monsters without even the possibiilty that you might lose, barring a cat jumping on your keyboard or something.

    So are there any games that are an exception to this rule? I seem to recall when I was soloing in City of Heroes, I had to pay attention a little bit, but I could be wrong.

And, BTW, does The Old Republic actually require me to look at the screen or use these abilities I'm unlocking at some point, or is it going to be a yawnfest from start to finish? I realize I'm not high enough level to judge the game, but I'm just sort of assuming based on what I've seen so far that it will be the same as other games.

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Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,942

    Originally posted by Uccisore

      The death penalty in the game seems to be 'lay on the ground for 3 seconds, then get back up with full life and several seconds of invincibility'. 

    As an fyi, it seems that there is gear damage upon death and the more times you die the more damaged the gear is. At least that is what it seems to be. Otherwise, each subsequent death brings a greater amount of time you can wait to be revived or else appear at the nearest medivac station.

    Ok, carry on.

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  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898

    Because WoW targetted the casual audience and won big. Then Nintendo targetted the casual audience and won big. So publishers figured, hm, let's just aim everything at non gamers, lets copy WoW!

     

    MMOs have been getting smaller in scale, easier and simpler in content, and more solo focused as each year passes. It's funny, the games become less like MMOs, and scaller and with less features, the more money and devs that get pumped into them. Games released by 30 man teams for peanuts back in 2001 would blow the minds of people playing MMOs now. "How did they manage all that! Must have like, a country backing them!" No, they had passion and a good mind for game design, and no 3000lb publishing gorilla screaming MORE LIKE WOW  MROE LEIK WOW!1!"

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988

    It's called the "me" generation.

    Simple test, while watching TV and the commercials are on keep track of any/all that are "fast and easy", hell even 5 hour energy is being advertised as faster with less hassle than coffee.  If coffee is considered "tough" we as humans are doomed.

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Uccisore

      The death penalty in the game seems to be 'lay on the ground for 3 seconds, then get back up with full life and several seconds of invincibility'. 

    As an fyi, it seems that there is gear damage upon death and the more times you die the more damaged the gear is. At least that is what it seems to be. Otherwise, each subsequent death brings a greater amount of time you can wait to be revived or else appear at the nearest medivac station.

    Ok, carry on.

     

    Oh, really? Ok. I hadn't noticed the gear damage thing because I haven't had the need to buy anything yet.  I seem to be doing just fine living off what the Seperatists keep in their pockets, and the dead bodies always seem to know when it's time for me to upgrade something.  I can see this being a big deal later in the game when the equipment you have is something you actually give a crap about or intend to keep for a while.

    When you say 'each subsequent death', I assume that's not permanent.  Does it reset every hour or when you change zones, or do you know?

     

    Either way, I die so rarely that the lack of a death penalty is a lower priority than the lack of a threat of actually dying in the first place, so far.

     

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    Originally posted by MMOGamer71

    It's called the "me" generation.

    Simple test, while watching TV and the commercials are on keep track of any/all that are "fast and easy", hell even 5 hour energy is being advertised as faster with less hassle than coffee.  If coffee is considered "tough" we as humans are doomed.

    I never thought of the 'fast and easy' thing, but you're right.  I know what you mean with the 'me' generation and commercials- the ones that get me are the commercials that try to tell me I deserve their product.  They don't know me, maybe I'm a d-bag.

     

    Anyway, is there a MMO out with acceptable graphics in which the PVE content will obligate me to pay attention and try?

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    Because the suits of the industry think that's what you want.
  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898

    Originally posted by tank017

    Because the suits of the industry think that's what you want.

    Well, according to WoW subs, solo focused simple quick gameplay IS what we want. WoW was the most casual game on the market when it launched, and had no unique features to speak of. Why should publishers encourage new ideas when its proven old ideas work? (this isn't actually the case, but publishers have no idea how MMOs work)

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by tank017

    Because the suits of the industry think that's what you want.

    Well, according to WoW subs, solo focused simple quick gameplay IS what we want. WoW was the most casual game on the market when it launched, and had no unique features to speak of. Why should publishers encourage new ideas when its proven old ideas work? (this isn't actually the case, but publishers have no idea how MMOs work)

     

    There's a degree to which people take what they are given, though. One of my favorite video games of all time is Dark Souls (and Demons' Souls before it).  It breaks all the rules, and it sells really well.   I'm willing to accept that there's always going to be a WoW for people that want a stress-free-rewards based gaming experience. But surely there are enough of us that DON'T that some single game could cash in on us.

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by tank017

    Because the suits of the industry think that's what you want.

    Well, according to WoW subs, solo focused simple quick gameplay IS what we want. WoW was the most casual game on the market when it launched, and had no unique features to speak of. Why should publishers encourage new ideas when its proven old ideas work? (this isn't actually the case, but publishers have no idea how MMOs work)

     

    Yep
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,942

    Originally posted by Uccisore

     

    Oh, really? Ok. I hadn't noticed the gear damage thing because I haven't had the need to buy anything yet.  I seem to be doing just fine living off what the Seperatists keep in their pockets, and the dead bodies always seem to know when it's time for me to upgrade something.  I can see this being a big deal later in the game when the equipment you have is something you actually give a crap about or intend to keep for a while.

    When you say 'each subsequent death', I assume that's not permanent.  Does it reset every hour or when you change zones, or do you know?

     

    Either way, I die so rarely that the lack of a death penalty is a lower priority than the lack of a threat of actually dying in the first place, so far.

     

    It resets but I'm unclear as to how long it takes. The penatly is something like "a few seconds", "30 seconds", "Minute and 30 seconds or so" and then I think it jumps to ten minutes.

    The damage on the gear gets worse until you get an icon of damaged items or some such things.

    I die a decent amount but I also do content that is slightly higher than me or I take on enemies that are gold which can be a bit challenging.

    Persoanlly, any death penalty that brings in a monetary penatly is horrid for me because I hate making money in mmo's. Give me good ol' fashioned easy xp loss. That I can take.

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  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898

    Originally posted by Uccisore

    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by tank017

    Because the suits of the industry think that's what you want.

    Well, according to WoW subs, solo focused simple quick gameplay IS what we want. WoW was the most casual game on the market when it launched, and had no unique features to speak of. Why should publishers encourage new ideas when its proven old ideas work? (this isn't actually the case, but publishers have no idea how MMOs work)

     

    There's a degree to which people take what they are given, though. One of my favorite video games of all time is Dark Souls (and Demons' Souls before it).  It breaks all the rules, and it sells really well.   I'm willing to accept that there's always going to be a WoW for people that want a stress-free-rewards based gaming experience. But surely there are enough of us that DON'T that some single game could cash in on us.

    Oh there's nearly a million of us. All the people playing MMOs before WoW came out. Multiple millions. The problem is, people think that to make a modern MMO you have to have a massive budget. Massive budget means, publisher. Publisher means, a bunch of scared investors who don't know anything about game design. They point to whats winning and say "copy that".

    The amount of people who bought Vanguard on day 1 based on the mere promise of having a hardcore MMO shows that its a viable market. Sadly though, the MMO pioneers of old (Turbine, Mythic, Funcom, Verant) are all either bought out by bigger publishers, or pursueing the WoW crowd and losing their fans. The worst/best part is, each of those companies completely failed with their WoW style MMO.

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Uccisore

     

    Oh, really? Ok. I hadn't noticed the gear damage thing because I haven't had the need to buy anything yet.  I seem to be doing just fine living off what the Seperatists keep in their pockets, and the dead bodies always seem to know when it's time for me to upgrade something.  I can see this being a big deal later in the game when the equipment you have is something you actually give a crap about or intend to keep for a while.

    When you say 'each subsequent death', I assume that's not permanent.  Does it reset every hour or when you change zones, or do you know?

     

    Either way, I die so rarely that the lack of a death penalty is a lower priority than the lack of a threat of actually dying in the first place, so far.

     

    It resets but I'm unclear as to how long it takes. The penatly is something like "a few seconds", "30 seconds", "Minute and 30 seconds or so" and then I think it jumps to ten minutes.

    The damage on the gear gets worse until you get an icon of damaged items or some such things.

    I die a decent amount but I also do content that is slightly higher than me or I take on enemies that are gold which can be a bit challenging.

    Persoanlly, any death penalty that brings in a monetary penatly is horrid for me because I hate making money in mmo's. Give me good ol' fashioned easy xp loss. That I can take.

     

    I agree with XP loss being a better penalty- I basically don't care about gold at all in games usually. Sounds like it gets a little harder later, but I'm still pretty discouraged.  On the first world, it seems like I don't really have the option of harder content- unless I just start doing in advance stuff that a storyline quest is going to require me to do all over again later, which seems pointless.

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    Originally posted by Uccisore


    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by tank017

    Because the suits of the industry think that's what you want.

    Well, according to WoW subs, solo focused simple quick gameplay IS what we want. WoW was the most casual game on the market when it launched, and had no unique features to speak of. Why should publishers encourage new ideas when its proven old ideas work? (this isn't actually the case, but publishers have no idea how MMOs work)

     

    There's a degree to which people take what they are given, though. One of my favorite video games of all time is Dark Souls (and Demons' Souls before it).  It breaks all the rules, and it sells really well.   I'm willing to accept that there's always going to be a WoW for people that want a stress-free-rewards based gaming experience. But surely there are enough of us that DON'T that some single game could cash in on us.

     

    The industry,Atleast the ones that hold the most
    Money arent going to take the chance on cashing in on those
    Who want something different though.
  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by Uccisore


    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by tank017

    Because the suits of the industry think that's what you want.

    Well, according to WoW subs, solo focused simple quick gameplay IS what we want. WoW was the most casual game on the market when it launched, and had no unique features to speak of. Why should publishers encourage new ideas when its proven old ideas work? (this isn't actually the case, but publishers have no idea how MMOs work)

     

    There's a degree to which people take what they are given, though. One of my favorite video games of all time is Dark Souls (and Demons' Souls before it).  It breaks all the rules, and it sells really well.   I'm willing to accept that there's always going to be a WoW for people that want a stress-free-rewards based gaming experience. But surely there are enough of us that DON'T that some single game could cash in on us.

    Oh there's nearly a million of us. All the people playing MMOs before WoW came out. Multiple millions. The problem is, people think that to make a modern MMO you have to have a massive budget. Massive budget means, publisher. Publisher means, a bunch of scared investors who don't know anything about game design. They point to whats winning and say "copy that".

    The amount of people who bought Vanguard on day 1 based on the mere promise of having a hardcore MMO shows that its a viable market. Sadly though, the MMO pioneers of old (Turbine, Mythic, Funcom, Verant) are all either bought out by bigger publishers, or pursueing the WoW crowd and losing their fans. The worst/best part is, each of those companies completely failed with their WoW style MMO.

     

     

    When Age of Conan came out as a WoW clone complete with no death penalty and super easy mobs, I was pretty shocked, I admit.  They seemed to think "Hardcore" just meant "Topless", and I can't see how anybody can get into the Conan universe in such a pansy-ass difficulty curve.  That said, it's still been my favorite MMO to date because I love the setting; I may give up Old Republic and go back to it.

    I have all my fingers and toes crossed that The Secret World actually offers something unique.

  • sakersaker Member RarePosts: 1,458

    The answer to the thread title is -Yes-

  • roby55roby55 Member Posts: 11

    The real question is What exactly is 'hard'  on a MMorpg ?

    The term 'hardcore' is being used alot but what exactly is 'hardcore' ?

    Does hardcore equals Long grind ?

    Does hardcore  equals Raid Boss fights?

    Does hardcore equals Severe Death penalty ?

    Most of the time when a mmo players means 'to easy' they are always talking about  How easy to  gain some rare armor or How fast Leveling is

    So can someone please tell me what exactly does the term 'hard' means when it comes to MMORPGS ?

  • VotanVotan Member UncommonPosts: 291

    Originally posted by MMOGamer71

    It's called the "me" generation.

    Simple test, while watching TV and the commercials are on keep track of any/all that are "fast and easy", hell even 5 hour energy is being advertised as faster with less hassle than coffee.  If coffee is considered "tough" we as humans are doomed.

     

    I just finished cleaning my keyboard from the coffee I spilled laughing.  If coffee is considered tough.... ROFL....one of the funniest things I have ever read here!  Thank you for making me laugh!!

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    Originally posted by roby55

    The real question is What exactly is 'hard'  on a MMorpg ?

    The term 'hardcore' is being used alot but what exactly is 'hardcore' ?

    Does hardcore equals Long grind ?

    Does hardcore  equals Raid Boss fights?

    Does hardcore equals Severe Death penalty ?

    Most of the time when a mmo players means 'to easy' they are always talking about  How easy to  gain some rare armor or How fast Leveling is

    So can someone please tell me what exactly does the term 'hard' means when it comes to MMORPGS ?

          Dude, I'm not trying to complicate your life.  All I know is, when I play an MMO, and I never come even close to dying, and in fact, don't even feel the need to use the abilities I'm being handed out because mashing the auto attack button is enough to beat everything, that is 'easy'.  I know you want to make it sound like it's oh-so-subjective and nobody has any answers, but you're really trying too hard to make a point that isn't there.  If you're older than, say, 20, you already know as well as I do that video games have gotten mind-numbingly easy lately, and it includes MMOs.   You can argue that easy games are better and that you like them, that's fine, but don't come in all confused like you don't know the difference between 'easy' and 'hard'.

          

     

     

  • roby55roby55 Member Posts: 11

    Originally posted by Uccisore

    Originally posted by roby55

    The real question is What exactly is 'hard'  on a MMorpg ?

    The term 'hardcore' is being used alot but what exactly is 'hardcore' ?

    Does hardcore equals Long grind ?

    Does hardcore  equals Raid Boss fights?

    Does hardcore equals Severe Death penalty ?

    Most of the time when a mmo players means 'to easy' they are always talking about  How easy to  gain some rare armor or How fast Leveling is

    So can someone please tell me what exactly does the term 'hard' means when it comes to MMORPGS ?

          Dude, I'm not trying to complicate your life.  All I know is, when I play an MMO, and I never come even close to dying, and in fact, don't even feel the need to use the abilities I'm being handed out because mashing the auto attack button is enough to beat everything, that is 'easy'.  I know you want to make it sound like it's oh-so-subjective and nobody has any answers, but you're really trying too hard to make a point that isn't there.  If you're older than, say, 20, you already know as well as I do that video games have gotten mind-numbingly easy lately, and it includes MMOs.   You can argue that easy games are better and that you like them, that's fine, but don't come in all confused like you don't know the difference between 'easy' and 'hard'.

          

     Yes thats why Im asking to people  WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER  hard ? Because I hell dont consider grinding to get to a certain level 'hard ' yet alot of mmo players considers that hard

    but you are right because this is a 'it's oh so ' subject like you mention on your post because alot of players dont even know what other people consider hard and join the hate bandwagon on certain game

    Dare I say Ever Quest 1 is 'easy ' for me but hard for others because they consider taking time to reach a certain level 'Hard'

    Im not trying act or sound like an a** but just really curious :)

     

  • WarmakerWarmaker Member UncommonPosts: 2,246

    "Why are MMOs brain-dead easy now?"

    Simple.  People get what they deserve.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

     Yes thats why Im asking to people  WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER  hard ? Because I hell dont consider grinding to get to a certain level 'hard ' yet alot of mmo players considers that hard

    but you are right because this is a 'it's oh so ' subject like you mention on your post because alot of players dont even know what other people consider hard and join the hate bandwagon on certain game

    Dare I say Ever Quest 1 is 'easy ' for me but hard for others because they consider taking time to reach a certain level 'Hard'

    Im not trying act or sound like an a** but just really curious :)

     

     Like I've said two or three times in this thread, when I play a recent released MMO, I feel like I barely have to pay attention in order to win. You fight the same monster over and over again, you know for a fact you will win because you beat him the last thousand times, and the only time your life bar even MOVES is when you're in an area that you're not supposed to be in yet. 

    You don't have to think, you don't have to come up with a strategy- you just have to use your abilities in the order they come off cooldown and you win. 

    When a fight is over, your health instantly replenishes and none of your abilities has a cooldown long enough that you can't use it every single fight, because resource management requires thought. 

    When I get a quest, I don't have to think about where to solve it, I just have to run towards the glowing exclamation point on my map.  I never get lost in a maze, I never get killed by a trap, nothing bad ever even almost happens to me.

    Should I die (like say, because I got up and drove to Burger King in the middle of a boss fight), nothing bad happens to me still- within seconds, I am picking up where I left off as though the death never happened, and I dont' care if I die again, because death isn't bad, and it happens so rarely that there's no purpose in planning for  it. 

    As far as I can tell, the possibility of losing a fight in an MMO is only even there as an anachronism and a way to keep brand new subs from doing the end-game content.

     Easy? Not Hard? I don't know what else to call it. "grinding" has nothing to do with anything- beating 1000 monsters that are super easy and take no challenge is no harder than beating 1, it's just more tedious.

  • KwanseiKwansei Member UncommonPosts: 334

    I guess it all depends on how you operationalize "hard". Looking back at EQ1, sure you had to watch your pulls and tie your complete heals, watch CC breaks etc.. But unless you played a bard in the carpple tunnel era twitch reactions and percisely timed situational abilities were all but absent. I for one don't like modern MMO twitch based gameplay mechanics asI miss the days of chatting regularly during combat. I'm only 37, but hey 5 hotbars of keys to me is just stupidly overcomplicated.  Players seem to want a ton of differnet abilities but at the same time also want a macro system which takes all of these abilities and puts em into a 1-2-3 keypress faceroll.   I am looking forward to GW2 with their single hotbar =)

     

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    Its not that they are any easier than before. They have always been easy. Just less time consuming now because they cater to the casual gamers so they earn more money.

    Most MMOs still have high end raiding / group encounters. Although it could be argued that the difficulty associated with those are more due to gear limitations, script memorisation and organisation... rather than actually being tough to beat.

    I'm hoping that the likes of TERA and GW2 will offer some more skill based / strategic gameplay rather than following a silly script. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    Originally posted by evilastro

    Its not that they are any easier than before. They have always been easy. Just less time consuming now because they cater to the casual gamers so they earn more money.

     

    I remember soloing in Anarchy Online way back in the day, and getting my butt kicked by monsters the same level as me, and having to seriously sit down and put some time into thinking how I was going to build my character, tweak him out, and what abilities I should be using in order to be able to beat a certain area.  But then, in that game, I actually had a bunch of choices to make in character creation...

    Now it seems like if you're a level X, and you go in a dungeons that's maked as being for level X characters, it is expected that you will win with no effort, and if you actually have a hard time, it's because the game developers screwed up somehow.

  • TheCrow2kTheCrow2k Member Posts: 953

    Originally posted by Uccisore

         It's Old Republic that's prompting this thread, but I'm not singling it out- they all seem to be this way. 

    -SNIP-

    Its not just MMO's its pretty much all games now, look at Skyrim ive stopped playing it a short time after my first dragon kill until such time as I can make the game more challenging (a promising mod just arrived recently) the biggest challenge in the game OOTB is managing your inventory which is just sad. The FPS genre is the same, once upon a time I would play single player FPS on Hard and it would be appropriately challenging, now hard has become the new normal and you need to play hardcore/nightmare to find an adequate challenge. CoD black ops & BF3 single player are insanely easy, RTS appears to be the last bastion when it comes to a decent challenge but that will not last.

     

    So what caused this shift ? several things actually (some of them are the same things that have caused single player games to become so much shorter too).

    - Generation Y's attention span is shorter than previous generations and according to science this trend is set to continue in future generations in our species. Gen Y'ers can decry this all they want but the scientific data is out there.

    - The popularity of Consoles have led games to become less complicated due to limited control options and so on (one of the reasons RTS is possibly our last bastion is that currently RTS doesnt translate well to console yet)  this has led to an overall dumbing down of games accross the board. In making controls simpler developers have also strived to make games more accessible to more people thereby simplifying them and to a large extent removing any real challenge. And now PC versions are 90% crappy console ports...

    - Most people do not even finish games now, I dont recall the exact figures but its probably related the attention spans again. Making games shorter and easier should help the intended audience finish them thus baiting them into buying the next installment in the series.

    In the case of MMO's I think all of the above cotribute to the ongoing dumbing down, devs want to reach a wider audience therefore they must accomodate the lowest common denominator. In this case thats the person who plays casually for 3-5 hours a week, in that time they want to progress & feel they have achieved something not just done corpse runs over & over. Developers see this and realise that to keep subscriptions from these people they need to dumb things down, allow soloing etc.

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