I voted average, simply because thats how it evened out. The highlights of some classes are brought down by the shortcoming of others.
That in a nutshell is one of the major reasons for such high class imbalance. Consulars, Inquisitors, Troopers and Bounty Hunters are currently the most played classes. The design was built around mirroring classes, but not really balancing classes.
It would have been better to have an "unlocked" system, allowing you to select trees, and create classes... and then respec, more so then forcing trees based on a choice you may or may not regret.
I get it, class based game, but I think it loops back into a tedious design when wanting to try alternate specs or characters.
class system is one of the main reasons I'm not renewing my sub.. the bland MMO combat I can deal with I did it for the past decade but having zero imagination or perception you tried anything into making these classes is just crazy to me.. they are your standard boring classes with almost zero customization and so few skills from talents... talents resticted to class mechanics ie ammo, cyclinder, stances which greatly reduces any reason to create hybrid specs. Mirrior trees makes leveling alts even more boring if perhaps the skills and trees were actually fun and you had many options then I could see past the mirror classes but as is they are boring the first time and just unplayable the second time for me at least. When the last big AAA game had such a robust way picking talents and playing with builds then we come to this with absolutley nothing to customize it just sticks out liek a sore thumb so bad it's a joke. Rift has its issues but at least the soul system made the same mundane trinity system pretty interesting for awhile.. top that off there's no option for pure support roles even limiting your variety of game play even more. Even EQ1 had support classes. I know I'm ranting on but really this decision made by the developers makes no plausable sense to me in anyway and it's a core system to the game so I don't expect this to change anytime soon hence why ill probably not return here after this month is up.... off to play FFXIII-2 just got here in the mail.. hopefully it will crave my rpg fix for a few...
It would have been better to have an "unlocked" system, allowing you to select trees, and create classes... and then respec, more so then forcing trees based on a choice you may or may not regret.
I get it, class based game, but I think it loops back into a tedious design when wanting to try alternate specs or characters.
Or make the trees about selecting abilities rather than most of the selections being the same old +1% crit or -.3 sec whacha ability.
Why the fuck can't selections be tied to skills or abilities rather than this mundane insistance devs have in many of these games that players would be so stoked to level so they can lower their main pew pew skill by one quarter of a second or increase their body armor by 1%?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Had to go with worse than average. I think this is one of the many pitfalls the game had for me. I mentioned in other threadss that even though the classes are mirrored, that wasn't my main issue. Where I really had problems was that the game didn't do enough to differentiate the roles. Compared to a game like WoW, the tanks don't feel any different as where in WoW the tanks had different strengths and felt like they played different even though later in the games expansins they started to bleed into the same thing.
I really noticed this problem when I leveled two different healers, one on each faction, and they played the exact same even though one was a commando speccd combat medic and the other was a sith sorcerer speccd corruption for healing. They both had pretty much the same spells with a different name. After noticing that it seemed like the other classes just really felt the same. I just don't feel that the class design was flushed out enough to give me the feeling of play style since they all played the same. Not bad for a single run through of the game but this would have stopped me from playing more than one character.
I voted average. Many of us in the bounty hunter forums for many months wanted the option to at least use a rifle or a carbine. This class was suppose to be based on bubba fett and fett did not use pistols. This sentiment was also felt by force users who wanted to shoot lighting and hold two lightsabers as well as ones who wanted to be knights/warriors and use the doublde bladed lightsaber. The classes are way to restrictive. I know this was done for balancing reasons but the negative result of that is lack of choice and diversity.
I feel that the class design was even worse than average, because the talent trees don't really contribute to any real feeling of distinction within the class. Mirroring the classes was an unneccessary step that took unique Star Wars concepts and homogenized them. There are redundant powers that only exist to bloat your hotbars. There is a noticeable lack of "fun" powers. Classes all have too much crowd control.
I'm interested to see how people feel the class design in SWTOR stacks up with its peers (themepark MMOs). By class design, I mean just about everything associated with classes in a typical themepark. Like...
Abilities, customization options (talent trees), group dynamic, theme, ability animations, etc.
But I'm not talking about things like combat responsiveness or story here. Just stuff directly associated with class design.
Please answer the poll and feel free to leave a comment explaining your answer. By "average" I just mean the average AAA themepark MMORPG. You can use WoW as a reference point. I'm going to post my comment in a bit, but I want to leave the OP neutral to avoid influencing folks.
Average, and that's the problem. If you spend 200 mill on a title, and are one of the premier game design companies around (all the AAA title BS), I expect more than "garden variety" or "average."
I voted avarage. I just don't see anything bad about it, nothing invative or new.
Btw, what games would people rate other classes above avarage or much better than avarage?
Until Mists of Pandaria, WoW can claim finally that they have a pretty deep class system.
If we want the classics, UO. SWG Pre-CU, which wasn't level based. And POTBS had a class system that broke from the Tank/DPS/Ranged/Healer mechanic even if they maintained the level system, their skill tree selection was awesome. When it worked, there were at least 3-4 different builds for a class. Did these games have other faults? Sure. But they did the class thing right.
You can blame some of the mirroring on the testers who wanted them to be more "equal" in their counterparts.
Every MMO today mirrors most if not all classes, SWTOR actually mirrors the better than most by atleast providing diffrent graphics
You cant blame it on testers since classes were mirrored since the public closed beta started, the only diffrences were and still are present due to bugs and some engine mechanics.
I only blame mirroring on the fact that the class story takes a shitload of time to complete, doest matter what you think of the story or the voice acting it is still required a tenfold more effort than any MMO have put into class stories till date. If there was no class story it would be much easier to increase the class count and "mirror" classes like all other MMO's by just givving all classes to both sides. There is a reason why Blizzard abandoned the little class variation it had and gave shamans and paladins to both faction, it is very hard to ballance PVE and PVP encounters when playing field is not even, heck till TBC they went out of their way to make the Shaman and Paladin buffs even... The horde cried havoc for ages because they didnt had BoS and aggro was a pain to manage in the early days(no dependable threat meters, broken taunt mechanics, and taunt immune bosses were not fun for tanks:)).
There is nothing wrong with mirroring, there is somthing wrong with only playing 4 classes, i could not level a trooper after leveling a bounty hunter, even tho i went a diffrent spec class the mechanics(by that i mean the main rotation, not stand at XM and shoot) atleast till the early 30's was just too much of the same, i could litterly only play the commando as a healer in instances and since it's pretty hard to find people to do instnaces continuasly at 30-50 i just cant bring my self to level my commando
I blame them on it because I was in testing for over a year and saw people bitch about it. That's just my opinion but the classes became more the same over that period of time.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The class I'm playing (Sith Assassin Tank spec) is put together really well. The animations are good, the character has weight the moves are fun, the sound and visual effects are well done and the abilities have synergy.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
average , but no pet classes was a huge letdown for me , i dont mind mirror classes (aniamtions change so is ok)
well considering the companion system every class is a pet class.. but yea I prefer dedicated pet classes myself then non-combat companions to do my chores...
I picked worse than average because of two main reasons.
1. Diversity. Each faction had only 4 classes and they pretty much mirrored the opposite faction. Players need diversity and splitting em up between factions is retarded imo as people like to stick to their one faction.
2. Some class designs made no sense to me. For instance Shadow Sage. Your a jedi... you don't go sneaking round. To me that was a tell tale sign that "Ohhh we need some kind of rogue class for the Republic."
I still don't see the whole Bounty Hunter or Trooper being on equal ground with the Jedi or Sith being acceptable. Jedi and Sith had immense power via the Force and no Trooper or BH or Smuggler or IA should be on equal ground with em. I don't care if you Mr Elite of the Elite of the Elite of the Elite repeating infinity.
I voted average. Many of us in the bounty hunter forums for many months wanted the option to at least use a rifle or a carbine. This class was suppose to be based on bubba fett and fett did not use pistols. This sentiment was also felt by force users who wanted to shoot lighting and hold two lightsabers as well as ones who wanted to be knights/warriors and use the doublde bladed lightsaber. The classes are way to restrictive. I know this was done for balancing reasons but the negative result of that is lack of choice and diversity.
I agree with this and forgot to mention it. I cant even begin to think why the hell the weapon restrictions are so absolute and strict. It's also a very un-efficient way to balance a game if that is the true reason, I'm betting they just didnt have the time to open up the weapon categories more due to EA pushing so hard on the release so they did not have all the animations etc ready for different classes different weapons. They even have concept art and promo pics with BH's with rifles. The weapon categories will be opened up more at least in the expansion for absolute sure but it's something that should have been in from the get go.
Slightly better than average. Not innovative like CO's classless system, but pretty solid as a "standard" system, and thematically a bit more coherent than average (usually I find lots of pointless powers cluttering up my tray - e.g. in LOTRO - but this game every power is both thematically fitting and does something useful, on most classes I've tried anyway, so there's still clutter, but at least I can use everything).
One of the more key disappointments, IMHO. Classes are just too boring and similar in functionality. I don't know if it was for the sake of balance, or if the devs just lack imagination, but there's much too little variation in abilities and spec trees. Mirror classes are a debatable decision to begin with, but when you've got so few classes, with so little variation in specialization, its just crazy. I voted below average, but its really like they did the bare minimum they could get away with.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Average.. And I'm being generous with saying that.
Anyone with any kind of MMO background can't give this more than average. It's basically a copy of every other MMO's (Especially WOW) skill system/class system. You got your tank/dps/heal. You have your HOT's, your DOT's, etc. You have your taunt, aggro, etc. There is nothing new here at all.
I picked worse than average because of two main reasons.
1. Diversity. Each faction had only 4 classes and they pretty much mirrored the opposite faction. Players need diversity and splitting em up between factions is retarded imo as people like to stick to their one faction.
2. Some class designs made no sense to me. For instance Shadow Sage. Your a jedi... you don't go sneaking round. To me that was a tell tale sign that "Ohhh we need some kind of rogue class for the Republic."
I still don't see the whole Bounty Hunter or Trooper being on equal ground with the Jedi or Sith being acceptable. Jedi and Sith had immense power via the Force and no Trooper or BH or Smuggler or IA should be on equal ground with em. I don't care if you Mr Elite of the Elite of the Elite of the Elite repeating infinity.
The lore of ToR was pretty much tere way before BW stepped in even with KOTOR, they made some stories like the Raven saga, but most of the background, and even some of the main carachters of the the period are not theirs.
Average.. And I'm being generous with saying that.
Anyone with any kind of MMO background can't give this more than average. It's basically a copy of every other MMO's (Especially WOW) skill system/class system. You got your tank/dps/heal. You have your HOT's, your DOT's, etc. You have your taunt, aggro, etc. There is nothing new here at all.
It's not just that it isn't new. Within that framework, there's room to make each role distinctive, but TOR didn't really do that, either. As a DPS class, I never felt like my DPS was all that great. As a tank class, I never felt that I could tank all that well. And as every class I tried, I never felt like I had any fun abilities that really stood out, in a role-defining sort of way.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Average.. And I'm being generous with saying that. Anyone with any kind of MMO background can't give this more than average. It's basically a copy of every other MMO's (Especially WOW) skill system/class system. You got your tank/dps/heal. You have your HOT's, your DOT's, etc. You have your taunt, aggro, etc. There is nothing new here at all.
agreed i honestly can't see how anyone with a few mmo's under their belt can say this games classes are anything better than average..
I just felt that most of the classes in SWTOR felt..."generic." Both the play experience and the "theme" between them just didn't feel all the different.
Compare this with WoW where the player is required to master multiple animal forms as a feral druid and shift between this forms in the middle of combat.
Stop right there. If I ever see a druid change forms in the middle of combat I'm gonna kick his ass.
Bioware was smart to just mirror the classes between factions. Billzard had to put paladins on horde and shaman on alliance because they couldn't balance raid and pvp content in vanilla WoW.
The only glaring complaint I have with TOR is that they made lightsabers so underpowered in terms of damage and threw in so many DPS force powers. If I'm playing a jedi knight I'd much rather have my lightsaber behave like one and not rely so heavily on force attacks for added damage.
Worse than average due to unnecessary restrictions. The main problem in this cataegory is the same as the global main problem of the game: the game is retarded. I mean this in a clinical sense versus a perjorative. The game lacks features and is thus retarded as compared to its peers.
Comments
I voted average, simply because thats how it evened out. The highlights of some classes are brought down by the shortcoming of others.
That in a nutshell is one of the major reasons for such high class imbalance. Consulars, Inquisitors, Troopers and Bounty Hunters are currently the most played classes. The design was built around mirroring classes, but not really balancing classes.
It would have been better to have an "unlocked" system, allowing you to select trees, and create classes... and then respec, more so then forcing trees based on a choice you may or may not regret.
I get it, class based game, but I think it loops back into a tedious design when wanting to try alternate specs or characters.
class system is one of the main reasons I'm not renewing my sub.. the bland MMO combat I can deal with I did it for the past decade but having zero imagination or perception you tried anything into making these classes is just crazy to me.. they are your standard boring classes with almost zero customization and so few skills from talents... talents resticted to class mechanics ie ammo, cyclinder, stances which greatly reduces any reason to create hybrid specs. Mirrior trees makes leveling alts even more boring if perhaps the skills and trees were actually fun and you had many options then I could see past the mirror classes but as is they are boring the first time and just unplayable the second time for me at least. When the last big AAA game had such a robust way picking talents and playing with builds then we come to this with absolutley nothing to customize it just sticks out liek a sore thumb so bad it's a joke. Rift has its issues but at least the soul system made the same mundane trinity system pretty interesting for awhile.. top that off there's no option for pure support roles even limiting your variety of game play even more. Even EQ1 had support classes. I know I'm ranting on but really this decision made by the developers makes no plausable sense to me in anyway and it's a core system to the game so I don't expect this to change anytime soon hence why ill probably not return here after this month is up.... off to play FFXIII-2 just got here in the mail.. hopefully it will crave my rpg fix for a few...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Or make the trees about selecting abilities rather than most of the selections being the same old +1% crit or -.3 sec whacha ability.
Why the fuck can't selections be tied to skills or abilities rather than this mundane insistance devs have in many of these games that players would be so stoked to level so they can lower their main pew pew skill by one quarter of a second or increase their body armor by 1%?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Had to go with worse than average. I think this is one of the many pitfalls the game had for me. I mentioned in other threadss that even though the classes are mirrored, that wasn't my main issue. Where I really had problems was that the game didn't do enough to differentiate the roles. Compared to a game like WoW, the tanks don't feel any different as where in WoW the tanks had different strengths and felt like they played different even though later in the games expansins they started to bleed into the same thing.
I really noticed this problem when I leveled two different healers, one on each faction, and they played the exact same even though one was a commando speccd combat medic and the other was a sith sorcerer speccd corruption for healing. They both had pretty much the same spells with a different name. After noticing that it seemed like the other classes just really felt the same. I just don't feel that the class design was flushed out enough to give me the feeling of play style since they all played the same. Not bad for a single run through of the game but this would have stopped me from playing more than one character.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I voted average. Many of us in the bounty hunter forums for many months wanted the option to at least use a rifle or a carbine. This class was suppose to be based on bubba fett and fett did not use pistols. This sentiment was also felt by force users who wanted to shoot lighting and hold two lightsabers as well as ones who wanted to be knights/warriors and use the doublde bladed lightsaber. The classes are way to restrictive. I know this was done for balancing reasons but the negative result of that is lack of choice and diversity.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I feel that the class design was even worse than average, because the talent trees don't really contribute to any real feeling of distinction within the class. Mirroring the classes was an unneccessary step that took unique Star Wars concepts and homogenized them. There are redundant powers that only exist to bloat your hotbars. There is a noticeable lack of "fun" powers. Classes all have too much crowd control.
They are kind of fun to play but badly designed. As others said the skill trees are pretty pointless and the mirroring is just silly and limiting.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
I rather liked the diversity of skills my Imperial Agent had. As a healer, i still had rogue like abilties.
All the classes felt too broad in what they could do though. I personally never felt a connection with any class, so I rated it below average.
Average, and that's the problem. If you spend 200 mill on a title, and are one of the premier game design companies around (all the AAA title BS), I expect more than "garden variety" or "average."
Until Mists of Pandaria, WoW can claim finally that they have a pretty deep class system.
If we want the classics, UO. SWG Pre-CU, which wasn't level based. And POTBS had a class system that broke from the Tank/DPS/Ranged/Healer mechanic even if they maintained the level system, their skill tree selection was awesome. When it worked, there were at least 3-4 different builds for a class. Did these games have other faults? Sure. But they did the class thing right.
I blame them on it because I was in testing for over a year and saw people bitch about it. That's just my opinion but the classes became more the same over that period of time.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
average , but no pet classes was a huge letdown for me
, i dont mind mirror classes (aniamtions change so is ok)
The class I'm playing (Sith Assassin Tank spec) is put together really well. The animations are good, the character has weight the moves are fun, the sound and visual effects are well done and the abilities have synergy.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
well considering the companion system every class is a pet class.. but yea I prefer dedicated pet classes myself then non-combat companions to do my chores...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I picked worse than average because of two main reasons.
1. Diversity. Each faction had only 4 classes and they pretty much mirrored the opposite faction. Players need diversity and splitting em up between factions is retarded imo as people like to stick to their one faction.
2. Some class designs made no sense to me. For instance Shadow Sage. Your a jedi... you don't go sneaking round. To me that was a tell tale sign that "Ohhh we need some kind of rogue class for the Republic."
I still don't see the whole Bounty Hunter or Trooper being on equal ground with the Jedi or Sith being acceptable. Jedi and Sith had immense power via the Force and no Trooper or BH or Smuggler or IA should be on equal ground with em. I don't care if you Mr Elite of the Elite of the Elite of the Elite repeating infinity.
I agree with this and forgot to mention it. I cant even begin to think why the hell the weapon restrictions are so absolute and strict. It's also a very un-efficient way to balance a game if that is the true reason, I'm betting they just didnt have the time to open up the weapon categories more due to EA pushing so hard on the release so they did not have all the animations etc ready for different classes different weapons. They even have concept art and promo pics with BH's with rifles. The weapon categories will be opened up more at least in the expansion for absolute sure but it's something that should have been in from the get go.
Slightly better than average. Not innovative like CO's classless system, but pretty solid as a "standard" system, and thematically a bit more coherent than average (usually I find lots of pointless powers cluttering up my tray - e.g. in LOTRO - but this game every power is both thematically fitting and does something useful, on most classes I've tried anyway, so there's still clutter, but at least I can use everything).
The mirroring is quite right - it's best for PvP.
One of the more key disappointments, IMHO. Classes are just too boring and similar in functionality. I don't know if it was for the sake of balance, or if the devs just lack imagination, but there's much too little variation in abilities and spec trees. Mirror classes are a debatable decision to begin with, but when you've got so few classes, with so little variation in specialization, its just crazy. I voted below average, but its really like they did the bare minimum they could get away with.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Average.. And I'm being generous with saying that.
Anyone with any kind of MMO background can't give this more than average. It's basically a copy of every other MMO's (Especially WOW) skill system/class system. You got your tank/dps/heal. You have your HOT's, your DOT's, etc. You have your taunt, aggro, etc. There is nothing new here at all.
Jedi Shadow are not an invention of BW, neither do any of the other classes - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Shadow
The lore of ToR was pretty much tere way before BW stepped in even with KOTOR, they made some stories like the Raven saga, but most of the background, and even some of the main carachters of the the period are not theirs.
It's not just that it isn't new. Within that framework, there's room to make each role distinctive, but TOR didn't really do that, either. As a DPS class, I never felt like my DPS was all that great. As a tank class, I never felt that I could tank all that well. And as every class I tried, I never felt like I had any fun abilities that really stood out, in a role-defining sort of way.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
agreed i honestly can't see how anyone with a few mmo's under their belt can say this games classes are anything better than average..http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Stop right there. If I ever see a druid change forms in the middle of combat I'm gonna kick his ass.
Bioware was smart to just mirror the classes between factions. Billzard had to put paladins on horde and shaman on alliance because they couldn't balance raid and pvp content in vanilla WoW.
The only glaring complaint I have with TOR is that they made lightsabers so underpowered in terms of damage and threw in so many DPS force powers. If I'm playing a jedi knight I'd much rather have my lightsaber behave like one and not rely so heavily on force attacks for added damage.
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Worse than average due to unnecessary restrictions. The main problem in this cataegory is the same as the global main problem of the game: the game is retarded. I mean this in a clinical sense versus a perjorative. The game lacks features and is thus retarded as compared to its peers.
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