SWTOR vs WOW vs DAOC at launch.

Souldrainer

DAOC launched in 2001.

WOW launched in 2004.

SWTOR launched in 2011.

 

Which of these games was nearly unplayable for two weeks because servers were down so much?  Which of these games launched with zero PVP incentives or objectives?  Which of these games launched without any PVP gear in them?  Which of these games announced multiple hero classes at launch and never delivered?  Which two had bugs where you fall through the universe, with no known fix?  Which two had randomly crashing dungeons?  Which two had unlootable loot  (one of them still has it to this day, and it's not the newer one)?  Which one had a bug where you would remain crouched after looting?

A little perspective, please.

Thorbrand

SWTOR at launch is still the worst MMO to launch!

StoneRoses2

Stating the obvious on these boards is not tolerated!

Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

dlld

If it makes you feel better.

doragon86

So you want me to compare the launch of a game released recently to launches of two other games released years before, during a time of different standards, ideas, technology, and even a different playerbase.... Consider the context before spouting silly things.

StoneRoses2

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

You cant train an old dog new tricks!

Some folks prefer the classics and will compare that to anything modern... how about that for some perspective?

Dudehog

Man, these "at launch" threads are really pathetic. TOR is such a weak game that is has to be compared to something launched 13 years ago. 

The best part is that of the 3 games you listed TOR is the least fun. That's really the only comparison that matters.

 

Souldrainer

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

PyrateLV

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

Wrong!

At release, DAoC was very limited in content compaired to WoW and even SWTOR

Most Dungeons in DAoC at launch were either empty or if they had MoBs in them they didnt drop anything because they were not itemized yet.

There were many areas where you wouldnt see any MoBs at all. Mythic put most of the spawns near the roads and nothing out further in many of the open areas.

Which was worse because the Realms really werent that big at all.

And if I remember right, Keeps couldnt be held because the didnt have doors yet.

There were many other things missing that I cnat recall off hand. So long ago.

I remember many players calling DAoC at launch EQLite because of the lack of content.

Souldrainer

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

Wrong!

At release, DAoC was very limited in content compaired to WoW and even SWTOR

Most Dungeons in DAoC at launch were either empty or if they had MoBs in them they didnt drop anything because they were not itemized yet.

There were many areas where you wouldnt see any MoBs at all. Mythic put most of the spawns near the roads and nothing out further in many of the open areas.

Which was worse because the Realms really werent that big at all.

And if I remember right, Keeps couldnt be held because the didnt have doors yet.

There were many other things missing that I cnat recall off hand. So long ago.

I remember many players calling DAoC at launch EQLite because of the lack of content.

In DAOC, you could PVP and earn rewards for it at launch.  DAOC was also playable for the first two weeks.  Therefore, DAOC had more features than WOW.  Content wasn't overwhelming, but the game still had more features... Day and night quests, etc.

Adalwulff

I'll throw the OP a bone.

Anarchy Online and Shadowbane were really bad launches, yet survived for years. For the record I havent played SWTOR.

dubyahite

Wow, looks like you struck a nerve there OP.

Anyways, playin the comparison game is always fun, but ultimately this game stands on it's own.

Either you like it or you don't. I don't think there is any arguing wrong vs right here as It's mostly personal taste.

What is annoying is that people can't seem to let this one go. I know when I've walked away from games in the past, I tend to put them put of my mind and not give a crap about it anymore.


The responses here are funny. " NUH-UH YOU CAN'T COMPARE THEM. That was a long time ago! Rage!"

When in reality these are the same people comparing the game to other games around here all day long. Demanding "industry-standard" features, calling it a wow clone, etc.

Sorrowbringa

Yeah, you cant win arguments with teenies these days, compare launches and they whinge about time-frames, compare features and they say yeah but that game is newer.... the me, me, me, me, me generation will never "get it".

I feel what gaming companies and perhaps forum moderators need to think about and hopefully implement in the future is make servers and/or forums clearly marked by age. No restrictions just recommended ages, cause as a mature gamer playing "popular" MMOs at times feels like I'm doing a shift at the local child-care centre without pay or thanks... so much crying, whinging, drama and carry on.

Sure I could turn off gen chat but I'd miss out on some groups, be nice to play an MMO again where every line in gen chat isnt about WoW or a piece of someone's anatomy.

 

 

 

adam_nox

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

Wrong!

At release, DAoC was very limited in content compaired to WoW and even SWTOR

Most Dungeons in DAoC at launch were either empty or if they had MoBs in them they didnt drop anything because they were not itemized yet.

There were many areas where you wouldnt see any MoBs at all. Mythic put most of the spawns near the roads and nothing out further in many of the open areas.

Which was worse because the Realms really werent that big at all.

And if I remember right, Keeps couldnt be held because the didnt have doors yet.

There were many other things missing that I cnat recall off hand. So long ago.

I remember many players calling DAoC at launch EQLite because of the lack of content.

In DAOC, you could PVP and earn rewards for it at launch.  DAOC was also playable for the first two weeks.  Therefore, DAOC had more features than WOW.  Content wasn't overwhelming, but the game still had more features... Day and night quests, etc.

I love DAoC, but you need to get real.  It was barren compared to WoW at launch.  Having PvP (the early rewards were very limited btw) doesn't make up for everything else it lacked and WoW had. 

teoyaomiqui

SWTOR is the best launch obviously, too bad that good launch is nothing if the game sucks balls.

It needs more features like flying elephants, dancing monkeys, haircuts, ingame prostitution, out of game housing, whatever, if the game is bad, adding more features won't help. If the game is not anywhere near great, you can add every feature there can possibly be, and it won't make the game any better.

Zippy

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

Wrong!

At release, DAoC was very limited in content compaired to WoW and even SWTOR

Most Dungeons in DAoC at launch were either empty or if they had MoBs in them they didnt drop anything because they were not itemized yet.

There were many areas where you wouldnt see any MoBs at all. Mythic put most of the spawns near the roads and nothing out further in many of the open areas.

Which was worse because the Realms really werent that big at all.

And if I remember right, Keeps couldnt be held because the didnt have doors yet.

There were many other things missing that I cnat recall off hand. So long ago.

I remember many players calling DAoC at launch EQLite because of the lack of content.

In DAOC, you could PVP and earn rewards for it at launch.  DAOC was also playable for the first two weeks.  Therefore, DAOC had more features than WOW.  Content wasn't overwhelming, but the game still had more features... Day and night quests, etc.

Daoc did not put their PvP point system in until about 6 months after release.  When DAOC released, in 2001 not 1999 likethe OP satated,  many viewed it as one of the most stable release ever but it was very unstable compared to WoW's release or modern releases.

When WoW released it was the best and most stable launch ever.  I crashed a total of 3 times in the three weeks it took me to get to 50.  WoW was the first game to ever release with full 1-50 content.  Most games like DAOC, EQ, AC released a shell of a game and then added content post release.  They could do this because the leveling curve was so long and there was no competition.  WoW set a new standard in quality for releases.  There are many things to be upset with WoW about but not its release.  It's biggest release problem was there were to many people playing and it required long queues for those that were silly enough to log out.  Blizzard actually refused, for a month or two, to ship more boxes to retailers after the first shipment ran out until they could get their server issues straightened out.  The loot lag bug was the only annoying bug at release.  But that was simply because way to many were playing the game.

If you compare ToR's release it was probably the 2nd or 3rd best release ever behind Rift and maybe LOTR.  Although putting it in the context of its day WoW, DAOC and would be considered much better releases in comparison to how they measured up to the quality of games released at the time of their releases.

dubyahite

To be perfectly honest, the launch that SWTOR should be measured against, if we are going to compare launches, is Rift. They came out in the same year and are fairly similar games (although with large differences).

I think Bioware fell short of the mark made by Trion in that regard. I enjoy SWTOR a lot more than I did enjoy Rift, but as far as launches go, Rift wins by a mile. They both faced different challenges though, and I still think it is a little off to compare the two very much.

tank017

Originally posted by doragon86

So you want me to compare the launch of a game released recently to launches of two other games released years before, during a time of different standards, ideas, technology, and even a different playerbase.... Consider the context before spouting silly things.

+1

Souldrainer

Originally posted by Zippy

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

Wrong!

At release, DAoC was very limited in content compaired to WoW and even SWTOR

Most Dungeons in DAoC at launch were either empty or if they had MoBs in them they didnt drop anything because they were not itemized yet.

There were many areas where you wouldnt see any MoBs at all. Mythic put most of the spawns near the roads and nothing out further in many of the open areas.

Which was worse because the Realms really werent that big at all.

And if I remember right, Keeps couldnt be held because the didnt have doors yet.

There were many other things missing that I cnat recall off hand. So long ago.

I remember many players calling DAoC at launch EQLite because of the lack of content.

In DAOC, you could PVP and earn rewards for it at launch.  DAOC was also playable for the first two weeks.  Therefore, DAOC had more features than WOW.  Content wasn't overwhelming, but the game still had more features... Day and night quests, etc.

Daoc did not put their PvP point system in until about 6 months after release.  When DAOC released, in 2001 not 1999 likethe OP satated,  many viewed it as one of the most stable release ever but it was very unstable compared to WoW's release or modern releases.

When WoW released it was the best and most stable launch ever.  I crashed a total of 3 times in the three weeks it took me to get to 50.  WoW was the first game to ever release with full 1-50 content.  Most games like DAOC, EQ, AC released a shell of a game and then added content post release.  They could do this because the leveling curve was so long and there was no competition.  WoW set a new standard in quality for releases.  There are many things to be upset with WoW about but not its release.  It's biggest release problem was there were to many people playing and it required long queues for those that were silly enough to log out.  Blizzard actually refused, for a month or two, to ship more boxes to retailers after the first shipment ran out until they could get their server issues straightened out.  The loot lag bug was the only annoying bug at release.  But that was simply because way to many were playing the game.

If you compare ToR's release it was probably the 2nd or 3rd best release ever behind Rift and maybe LOTR.  Although putting it in the context of its day WoW, DAOC and would be considered much better releases in comparison to how they measured up to the quality of games released at the time of their releases.

I stand corrected on the date.  However, WOW had a horrible launch and they comped me 5 days of free play time in the first two weeks alone.... THAT is not a stable launch.

Zippy

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Zippy

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Ambros123

The fallacy in your arguement is your making comparisons to things at an age that is perfected to the past.  When buying a new car you don't compare a new company that just started top line model to the top line model of a rival company when it first started?  HELL NO!!!  You compare it to it's modern model..... a little perspective.

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

Wrong!

At release, DAoC was very limited in content compaired to WoW and even SWTOR

Most Dungeons in DAoC at launch were either empty or if they had MoBs in them they didnt drop anything because they were not itemized yet.

There were many areas where you wouldnt see any MoBs at all. Mythic put most of the spawns near the roads and nothing out further in many of the open areas.

Which was worse because the Realms really werent that big at all.

And if I remember right, Keeps couldnt be held because the didnt have doors yet.

There were many other things missing that I cnat recall off hand. So long ago.

I remember many players calling DAoC at launch EQLite because of the lack of content.

In DAOC, you could PVP and earn rewards for it at launch.  DAOC was also playable for the first two weeks.  Therefore, DAOC had more features than WOW.  Content wasn't overwhelming, but the game still had more features... Day and night quests, etc.

Daoc did not put their PvP point system in until about 6 months after release.  When DAOC released, in 2001 not 1999 likethe OP satated,  many viewed it as one of the most stable release ever but it was very unstable compared to WoW's release or modern releases.

When WoW released it was the best and most stable launch ever.  I crashed a total of 3 times in the three weeks it took me to get to 50.  WoW was the first game to ever release with full 1-50 content.  Most games like DAOC, EQ, AC released a shell of a game and then added content post release.  They could do this because the leveling curve was so long and there was no competition.  WoW set a new standard in quality for releases.  There are many things to be upset with WoW about but not its release.  It's biggest release problem was there were to many people playing and it required long queues for those that were silly enough to log out.  Blizzard actually refused, for a month or two, to ship more boxes to retailers after the first shipment ran out until they could get their server issues straightened out.  The loot lag bug was the only annoying bug at release.  But that was simply because way to many were playing the game.

If you compare ToR's release it was probably the 2nd or 3rd best release ever behind Rift and maybe LOTR.  Although putting it in the context of its day WoW, DAOC and would be considered much better releases in comparison to how they measured up to the quality of games released at the time of their releases.

I stand corrected on the date.  However, WOW had a horrible launch and they comped me 5 days of free play time in the first two weeks alone.... THAT is not a stable launch.

It depends upon your server.   For me and most people it was the smoothest launch ever at that time.  I had no lag, no bugs and no issues. <Like I said I crashed a ttoal of 3 times ebwteen level 1 and 50.  Mainly I see people complain about the queue times.  But I have always argued thats their fault  for logging off :P.  But i've heardanfew people cmlaim lag and connection issues justlike you.  I think there were some bad servers and maybe some people that hadissues with their computer setup.  But I disagree on the launch.  It was the best and smoothest launch up until LOTRO's.  It certainly set a new level of quality for released MMOs that other MMOS have been trying to live up to. Before WoW launches like AO, Horizons, Shadowbane and EQ1 were the norm. DAOC only looked great in its day because games like AO were released right before it.

I am not sure if you were there for AO's release.  But let me describe the gameplay.  You log into Tir, the capital city, and you want to run a mission in instance.  To do that you need to run to mission NPC get the quest then run to the instance.  All of which takes about 30 seconds.  The trick was doing it in less than an hour.  You log in and try to walk 3-4 steps before you crash, log back in crash, and so on until evebtually an hour later you have the quest and you made it to the instance.  The instance was stable do that for 10 minutes then repeat the hour of crashing.  Do that everyday for 30 days adn you egta  prize you egt toquit and play DAOC.  This is why DAOC looked so good.  the shame was 3-6 months before AO's release itwas stable in beta and it slowly got worse.  I miss those releases.

Iselin

Originally posted by Souldrainer

This is why I included DAOC.  There is no fallacy.  DAOC had more features than WOW at launch, and that game came out 5 years prior to WOW.

I've never had as much fun in a game at launch as I did with DAOC. No one had separated the MMO world into "Theme Park / Sandbox" yet back then so DAOC had set classes with limited spec points to put into 3 trees--just like every "Theme Park" since but it wasn't totally quest driven and PVP was the best any MMO has ever had...and it was mostly player created with faction-wide rewards instead of all the selfish little trinkets people have come to accept these days as what you get for PVP.

The graphics were horrible by today's standards and leveling those last few levels was a hell of a grind. But I never felt like I was re-doing crap constantly at end game. If you had an hour or 6 you could head out to Emain and always find a raid and some fun.

There were no battlefronts nor scenarios and even the level-specific PVP arenas hadn't come in to the game yet.

But that was the good old days... it's all about what the bean counters will let you do now. And bean counters have never been known for their radical inventiveness

DAOC was an indie. WOW and SWTOR are both big Hollywood blockbusters... we need a Miramax of the MMO world to kick some butt.

gervaise1

Souldrainer posted:

<<I stand corrected on the date. However, WOW had a horrible launch and they comped me 5 days of free play time in the first two weeks alone.... THAT is not a stable launch.>>

Yes and no.

I never got any free time.

Everyone knew that WoW was a solid, playable game when it launched because c.600k people had been playing the open, mo NDA beta. So when Blizzard said we have been swamped and we need to get more servers up people believed them - obviously because the game became a success. There was none of the "the content will be coming soon", "we have great features planned but we can't tell you about them".

But the first 20 servers were swamped. People who stuck with those servers, by all accounts, had a torrid time. By all accounts because I never tried to play on the first servers. And, as said, Blizzard - unlike some companies - did provide free time.

On day 5 however new servers were brought on-line; another 80 I think it was and very soon an awful lot more. So the initial servers quickly became a very small percentage. 

Those few had, by all accounts, a "bad" "technical" launch - like I say I never tried to play on the first servers but I believe e.g. Souldrainer. None of the several servers I tried (before settling on one) had a problem however.

So a little perspective is needed. People knew that the game was good from the beta. If Blizzard had run the - sadly all to typical - quick, limited, beta followed by the initial server meltdown and the (again typical) "we have great things coming" ploy would it have been a huge success. I think not.

And - as mentioned - Blizzard did compensate people. Very quickly and without fuss. They were customer focused.  

77lolmac77

I remember the guy at gamestop telling me that they werent going to get any more WoW boxes in for 2 weeks because the servers were so full. I was so crushed

And yeah, there was no "reason" to PvP in early WoW, but people still did it anyway. Obviously you've never been to a XR raid. It would usually start with a couple of alliance killing quest givers, then high level horde would show up. then high level alliance showed up. And it just got bigger and bigger. The fact that the boat from Booty Bay went to within a minutes ride of Crossroads defintely made it the spot for World Pvp

blondeh

WoW

 

What do I win

Kyleran

It's been so long, but I recall reading a CGW article that said DAOC only had like 30 levels of content at launch, but within 6 months or so of launch and fleshed out the game considerably.  I joined around that time and had no issue with missing content in either PVE or PVP, but to me the game really hit its stride when the Shrouded Isles expansion was implemented.

Once Trials of Atlantis and New Frontiers came out it was pretty much all downhill after that and I left within a year of TOA's launch.

Also, of the 3 titles in the OP, only one was designed around PVP first and only screwed itself up by trying to add raiding into the game design in TOA.

People who played DAOC instead of EQ1 did so largely to get away from raiding, and Mythic brought the mechanic into their world and worse, tied it directly to the PVP model, which was total failure.