Stealthbr wrote: I believe in an RPG, skill and character power should be equally important. It is what differentiates the genre from FPS's; Being stronger, quicker, smarter, wiser, etc. Those are some of the facets that define character power within an RPG.
Rivalen wrote:What you want is one of the greatest design flaws in Themepark MMOs.
Bladestrom wrote:Yup, exactly.
I'm going to have to disagree with everything said here from top to bottom. I don't think GW2 needs power progression in the way Steathbr is demanding for it to be an RPG.
The second point of contention is that this is some flawed design fom "themeparks". Upward progression like this is actually more akin to something like SWG or UO.
There's no unique level of power to attain in a themepark game, the very nature of them has been to remove these aspects to better reach a balance among players. Anet is actually taking the themepark approach in this area, hell they're taking that approach ahead about 20 steps.
re point 2 and 3, I was really referring to wow,SWTOR or any themepark where the ultimate is the max tier gear. The design flaw is that it devalues older content (which GW1 and 2 avoides brilliantly - the latter being a better implementation of themepark imo)
In that case I agree, I was just going from where Stealth started earlier in the thread when he was talking about a unique level of power. Which is what I thought he was arguing for the whole time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There's no unique level of power to attain in a themepark game, the very nature of them has been to remove these aspects to better reach a balance among players. Anet is actually taking the themepark approach in this area, hell they're taking that approach ahead about 20 steps.
Care to explain your thinking? Because I have no idea what you are saying.
A pet peeve of mine is the the way "theme park" is slung around when discussing MMORPGs. These games all fall somewhere along a line with "Sandbox" at one end and "Theme Park" at the other, but many seem to see "Theme Park" as an indication of some "taint" where by having any theme park elements makes a game a "Theme Park" mmorpg. I think this just points to the uselessness of the term as it's used by many people today.
In my mind, pushing a game more towards player skill and more away from an artificial power curve pushes the game more towards the "Sandbox" end of the spectrum. Having a Dynamic, persistant world, where player actions effect the world and the consequences of failure or success are reflected in the environment also push a game more towards the "sandbox" end of the spectrum. In fact, I think the goal of any MMO should be to find the fulcrum point between the two extremes, a sort of "goldilocks zone" of MMO game design.
Does GW2 lean towards the Sandbox side of the fulcrum? I'd say no, but it's probably closer to the "Goldilocks zone" than the vast majority of AAA MMORPGs.
An MMO can be "too themepark", I'd say TOR is a fine example of that, but to imply that more reliance on player skill and Dynamic Events move the game "20 steps" in the direction of "Theme Park" is completely contrary to logic and reality.
I dont want grind to power items as some other raid oriented mmos. But I also dont want to get to a point too easily where I feel like I have everything. There should always be odd items and/or skills in the world for me to treasure hunt after.
For me, this was always a HUGE selling point of the original GW. The game felt like it really started when you reached max level and character's power...halfway through the game. The game didn't stop getting harder and harder though. If you took the original campaign and put the final missions immediately after Augury Rock, it would be a HUGE step in difficulty. How does this still work? The PLAYER gets better. The progression is that YOU yourself are improving at the game. I remember trying to do the Ascension missions, Thunderhead Keep, and the Ring of Fire over and over again due to difficulty. Now? They're a complete breeze. My character is exactly as strong as he was the first time I did those, but I've improved a LOT. I also remember the introduction of hardmode. I figured it couldn't be THAT bad. I stepped outside Lion's Arch and wiped on the first mob....3 times. My knee-jerk reaction was "this is impossible!" Now I find the game entirely dull unless it's on hardmode and even then, it's pretty easy now. Parties would almost invariably wipe pretty early the first couple times they did UW, FoW, the Deep, Urgoz, and DoA. Heck, even the titan quests were rough with a full group the first time through. All of this "endgame content" was without ANY increase to player power through skills, stats, or gear. There was still the rewards of the elite armors; I saw more gear envy in GW than other mmo's because the ONLY reason to get the gear was that it looked really cool. Therefore ANet made the armors look really cool unlike other MMOs where the gear is desired for the stats even if you look like a moron who can't dress himself.
Another awesome feature of the game was hardmode that allowed the entire game to become fair game for max level characters. Other games waste 90% of their content by having you outlevel it. GW made sure you could enjoy the ENTIRE world at max level and do everything as challenging content.
For those that are asking for a "progression" why do you need to have your character get more powerful for the game to be fun? If the gameplay and content is fun on it's own, why must you have your stats or abilities get better instead of you becoming a better player? GW1 managed to pull in many people like myself to play the game for years after completing the campaigns simply because it's FUN, not because we'd get a spiky shoulderpad of +1 something. When you'd down a boss in other MMOs with "progression" you'd do it because you had sufficient character power mixed with some player skill (usually of the do-not-stand-in-aoe variety). In GW, you'd be able to beat them because your team was skillful enough to win. Plus, without the progression, you don't EVER lock someone out because they don't have the right gear. ANYONE can play any content as long as they are good enough. The three exceptions were infusion on armor, but that was easy to get and part of the story anyhow (and you can still win without it; if you've never tried it, you should!), that awful time in EotN when ursan ruled the game and you couldn't get a group without being high rank ursan, and lastly trying to get a PUG group in HA is nigh impossible without being high rank. All of these involve pug groups though. You and your friends can do anything that you're capable of beating.
I'd still be playing Guild Wars now but unfortunately with the development of GW2, there hasn't been any new content for a long time and my guild is kinda on burnout waiting for GW2. If GW2 is based on the same principle of player skill improvement instead of this power progression, I'll be thrilled.
Out of curiosity, those of you that really want power progression, did you play GW and enjoy it? Because if not, why would you expect the sequel to drastically change style and cater to you instead of being more catered towards fans of the first game? I hate the argument that "If you don't like it, there are other games," but this is a sequel...while the game mechanics and engine will change, I doubt the overall style will.
Disclaimer about difficulty: all of this is in reference to the time BEFORE PvE skills, consets, and allowing heroes to fill up the entire party which have made the game an utter cakewalk.
Comments
In that case I agree, I was just going from where Stealth started earlier in the thread when he was talking about a unique level of power. Which is what I thought he was arguing for the whole time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If a game is fun, how much of a gear/power/character progression is really needed anyhow?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Care to explain your thinking? Because I have no idea what you are saying.
A pet peeve of mine is the the way "theme park" is slung around when discussing MMORPGs. These games all fall somewhere along a line with "Sandbox" at one end and "Theme Park" at the other, but many seem to see "Theme Park" as an indication of some "taint" where by having any theme park elements makes a game a "Theme Park" mmorpg. I think this just points to the uselessness of the term as it's used by many people today.
In my mind, pushing a game more towards player skill and more away from an artificial power curve pushes the game more towards the "Sandbox" end of the spectrum. Having a Dynamic, persistant world, where player actions effect the world and the consequences of failure or success are reflected in the environment also push a game more towards the "sandbox" end of the spectrum. In fact, I think the goal of any MMO should be to find the fulcrum point between the two extremes, a sort of "goldilocks zone" of MMO game design.
Does GW2 lean towards the Sandbox side of the fulcrum? I'd say no, but it's probably closer to the "Goldilocks zone" than the vast majority of AAA MMORPGs.
An MMO can be "too themepark", I'd say TOR is a fine example of that, but to imply that more reliance on player skill and Dynamic Events move the game "20 steps" in the direction of "Theme Park" is completely contrary to logic and reality.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I dont want grind to power items as some other raid oriented mmos. But I also dont want to get to a point too easily where I feel like I have everything. There should always be odd items and/or skills in the world for me to treasure hunt after.
For me, this was always a HUGE selling point of the original GW. The game felt like it really started when you reached max level and character's power...halfway through the game. The game didn't stop getting harder and harder though. If you took the original campaign and put the final missions immediately after Augury Rock, it would be a HUGE step in difficulty. How does this still work? The PLAYER gets better. The progression is that YOU yourself are improving at the game. I remember trying to do the Ascension missions, Thunderhead Keep, and the Ring of Fire over and over again due to difficulty. Now? They're a complete breeze. My character is exactly as strong as he was the first time I did those, but I've improved a LOT. I also remember the introduction of hardmode. I figured it couldn't be THAT bad. I stepped outside Lion's Arch and wiped on the first mob....3 times. My knee-jerk reaction was "this is impossible!" Now I find the game entirely dull unless it's on hardmode and even then, it's pretty easy now. Parties would almost invariably wipe pretty early the first couple times they did UW, FoW, the Deep, Urgoz, and DoA. Heck, even the titan quests were rough with a full group the first time through. All of this "endgame content" was without ANY increase to player power through skills, stats, or gear. There was still the rewards of the elite armors; I saw more gear envy in GW than other mmo's because the ONLY reason to get the gear was that it looked really cool. Therefore ANet made the armors look really cool unlike other MMOs where the gear is desired for the stats even if you look like a moron who can't dress himself.
Another awesome feature of the game was hardmode that allowed the entire game to become fair game for max level characters. Other games waste 90% of their content by having you outlevel it. GW made sure you could enjoy the ENTIRE world at max level and do everything as challenging content.
For those that are asking for a "progression" why do you need to have your character get more powerful for the game to be fun? If the gameplay and content is fun on it's own, why must you have your stats or abilities get better instead of you becoming a better player? GW1 managed to pull in many people like myself to play the game for years after completing the campaigns simply because it's FUN, not because we'd get a spiky shoulderpad of +1 something. When you'd down a boss in other MMOs with "progression" you'd do it because you had sufficient character power mixed with some player skill (usually of the do-not-stand-in-aoe variety). In GW, you'd be able to beat them because your team was skillful enough to win. Plus, without the progression, you don't EVER lock someone out because they don't have the right gear. ANYONE can play any content as long as they are good enough. The three exceptions were infusion on armor, but that was easy to get and part of the story anyhow (and you can still win without it; if you've never tried it, you should!), that awful time in EotN when ursan ruled the game and you couldn't get a group without being high rank ursan, and lastly trying to get a PUG group in HA is nigh impossible without being high rank. All of these involve pug groups though. You and your friends can do anything that you're capable of beating.
I'd still be playing Guild Wars now but unfortunately with the development of GW2, there hasn't been any new content for a long time and my guild is kinda on burnout waiting for GW2. If GW2 is based on the same principle of player skill improvement instead of this power progression, I'll be thrilled.
Out of curiosity, those of you that really want power progression, did you play GW and enjoy it? Because if not, why would you expect the sequel to drastically change style and cater to you instead of being more catered towards fans of the first game? I hate the argument that "If you don't like it, there are other games," but this is a sequel...while the game mechanics and engine will change, I doubt the overall style will.
Disclaimer about difficulty: all of this is in reference to the time BEFORE PvE skills, consets, and allowing heroes to fill up the entire party which have made the game an utter cakewalk.