This thread is just another whining QQ thread because GW2 won't have RAIDing in it. I am sorry, every game does not have to be a progression gear grind, live with it.
The OP does have a point. Even though many will just enjoy all the variety and action GW2 has planned, a lot of people will end up at max level and wonder what will keep them playing. And I know there is no subs and people will try other games and come back because it is free after box purchase, but low playing population is not good for those playing. If GW2 delivers on all the features and added content they are promising, I don't see this as a problem, because leveling should fun enough to try many alts.
As for the community, I think that guilds will be very important to be a good micro-community. With soloing and being able to do DE's without grouping, overall community could suffer. Not to be old-schoolish, but in EQ you pretty much had to group to level and do majority of content, so if you were an a-hole you got weeded out and had trouble playing. It was forced (not saying that was a good thing, but it did kind of enforce some civility and coop). But guilds will be important in world v world pvp for strategy, etc and i believe DE's will be much better doing with group of friends or guildees for strategy, RP, tactics, etc, while joining in solo would feel more like spg action game.
I don't know how this game can live up to the high expectations they have built, but if they deliver on a high percentage of their stated goals for the game, it should be a great game.
It allways has been chracter (not gear) progression that kept me playing. Wether it was AA in EQ1 and EQ2 or realmpoints in DAOC, improving my character has allways been the core of my MMO experience..
In most games i start loosing interest when i cant get any more abillities.
For 90% of the MMO community its progression that keeps them playing. Even in The orriginal GW game, there where the skills one could aquire at max level, which kept me occupied for quite some time.
I really agree that GW2 would be perfect for annAA syatem some time after release.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
That's what I loved about Guild Wars. The game STARTED at max level. Everything before then was pretty much a tutorial, getting you used to the game before throwing some nasty as hell challenges at you (and that was before you even had hard mode to deal with)
For Factions this was more true than ever. The second you got off the starting island, EVERYTHING was max level and higher.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
The character progression is one of my main concerns as well.
Progression
Vertical progression is level based and gearl locked to level progression. So GW2 will have vertical progression to level 80.
Horizontal progression is character advancement at cap through AA, gear, or anything that makes your character more powerful at a given level. It's also known as side-progression in some game (LotRO for example). I can see skill, trait, and gear augments as being a form of progression so that is good news to players like me who like that sort of thing.
Since most of your skills are weapon based, the only ones that you'd be able to progress in is Utlity and Elite skills, and while you may be able to get new ones from dungeons, Arena-Net has never been the kind of developer to put in different levels of the same skill you have to grind for. Progressively better gear augments are another thing thats not likely to be in the game, because that would give an unfair advantage to those who are at the top of the progression vs. those who are at the bottom, and we'll start seeing the "LFG Rank 8 HA" again. Traits are like talents, if you've played any other game, except they're unlocked a bit differently (you have to do class quests to get them, they dont just appear) so talents getting better just because you kill Zhaitain X amount of times? Not happening.
If that progression is shallow or quick and insignificant the players who enjoy progression oriented play will probably get bored sooner than traditional gear treadmill games. Believe it or not, despite the cries against grind, I feel there are a lot of those people out there. If there is some sort of deep meaningful progression then I think the game has the potential to pull in a lot of diverse player types.
Don't worry, progression players will have plenty to satisfy their E-Peen in GW2. Most people who do "progression" raids and such, want to feel better than everyone else, so they get all their BiS gear and they down bosses that are impossible without it. However, in GW2 Arena-net has said they don't want gear to get better as players get farther in dungeons, so they made gear progress in looks instead. Example: a ranger comes into your group with a full orrian set (http://haikai.net/gallery/GW2_Orrian.jpg) and you automatically know he's a badass and a really good player. You didn't have to look at his talents, or his skills, or his titles or his gear to see if its his BiS, his gear has the definitive look of Orrian so you know his skill easily.
Grind
I would like to make a couple points about grind. GW1 has an insane amount of grind. The amount of hours spent in the game to get top tier titles requires a significant grind. One doesn't just pop to the top tier drunkard title. Trying to get master cartographer in Tyria without using an overlay cheat can require moving through the entire map several times. ANet (and its parent company NCSoft) is no stranger to massive grind.
While I can't say there will be absolutely NO grind, I can say that they've significantly reduced grind. It takes the same time to get from level 19-20 as it does to 79-80. Dungeons drop gear tokens, so if you kill a boss, everyone in the group gets an armor or a weapon token, that they can trade in for any of that dungeons gear (you dont need a shoulder token for a shoulder piece is what i mean).
Grind is necessary in any MMO to keep players engaged towards goal completion. If there is no grind, there is timeline to achievement and players get everything fast. There is no sense of accomplishment in this. No one cares about pretty much anything at the extreme end of "handout" type of game play.
In your first paragraph of this section, you talk about how much you hate grind, in this paragraph you talk about how much you think it's necessary. Kinda weird.
Anyway, why do we need grind? Why is this necessary grind mentality so prevalent? Here's an idea, I know it'll seem new, but don't get scared: How about they put in content that's actually HARD? "We've had to tone down the Big boss fights and Dungeons for the people who played through them, because they were just having a wipe fest. We also had developer's in there giving demo players a hand, and in release there wont be so much hand-holding."
The easiest solution to not having grind, is to make your content actually require skill to complete, there IS a sense of accomplishment if you downed that boss because you didnt just not stand in the fire and stare at green bars all day.
Just because the game doesn't hav a gear grind doesn't mean it won't have a grind. What makes this palatable, in my opinion, is that the rewards for the grind are satisfying and that the repetitive task is acceptable or enjoyable. This brings me back to progression: if the grind is mostly (or only) for fluff and titles that won't satisfy me at all. If the grind actually increases character power or adds convenience then it will satisfy me. I wonder how many other players will be in a similar situation.
Community
You never know what a community will be like until a game launches. Guild Wars 1 had a great community for the first 2 or 3 years, but it has a horrid community now. The deplorability of the WoW community, or any other game for that matter, is over-stated and really varies radically by server.
ANet has always been a favorites player. They favor GWGuru and their "go to" fansites. They have favorite top tier GvG guilds that have influenced and shaped game mechanics and the meta. ANet doesn't foster a great community. They foster a "good old boy" community system. Any good community that comes out of GW2 won't be because ANet is the great community enhancer, but because players on server clusters make the effort to create a great gaming environment despite the buddy system ANet favors.
Do you know why they currently do the "good old boy" community system? I'd say it's because the GW1 community has mostly moved on, and the ones that are left and active ARE their "pet" guilds, and that makes the guilds seem like "pet" guilds because the reduced GW1 team relies on them to learn about OP builds and game issues.
The reason why GWGuru seems favored, is because Anet doesn't feel they need to use resources to host and monitor a forum, when they could be using the same resources to help develop the game. Besides, players are going to make fan forums anyway, why not just endorse one and you'll have a forum where you post (devs post in GW2 Guru all the time) and one that fans feel is theirs.
We have 3 complete GW accounts in our family and they are interested in GW2. I'm a little hesitant to plonk down $150 - $200 (or more?) on 3 new GW2 accounts until I see how some of these things pan out.
My recommendation to you? Get in one of the open beta weekends, use it like a demo, if you feel that the game doesn't live up to your standards after you've played it for awhile, then by all means don't buy it, it's your choice not mine
My recommendation to you? Get in one of the open beta weekends, use it like a demo, if you feel that the game doesn't live up to your standards after you've played it for awhile, then by all means don't buy it, it's your choice not mine
Wow, I had never seen that image. On-topic: Nice post, good suggestion at the end for anyone with similar fears.
Wow, some of you really practice the power of avoidance. The OP's question is simple: Will there be any deep and significant form of developing his character and making him more powerful after reaching level 80? Stat allocation, skill selection, and gear choice has nothing to do with progression and development. It has to do with optimization.
BTW, resorting to arguments like: "Oh Guild Wars 2 isn't your type of game. There are loads of other games out there for you." Well, excuse me, but Dungeons and Dragons, the game that consolidated and formally established the RPG genre, considers character progression a pivotal part of the experience. People don't play RPG's for twich-based gameplay, that's what FPS's are for. RPG's are about developing characters and seeing them grow.
http://haikai.net/guildwars.html is where I got that image. They're from a freelance artist that did in game renders for GW2 and has a bunch of armor sets on his site.
To stealth, Why does progression have to mean that the farther you progress the easier the game becomes?
Think about WOW, once you had your BiS gear, all the raids/heroics were EXTREMELY easy except for maybe 1-2 bosses.
And, if you went to a level 30 zone as a level 85 you'd one shot everything, in GW2 neither of these things happens.
Progression is by looks, read my really long post in red above
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
Character progression has to do with character growth, character advancement, becoming more powerful. Skill/Gear selection and attribute allocation are merely optimizations not progression.
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
Listed like that, and that's just at launch..it's more than what I'm getting from SWTOR or Rift and I like these games just not enough to stay subbed past the 2-3 month mark. Just reading this list I'm already jonesing for GW2. Can't wait.
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
Voila, the power of avoidance.
there is no avoidance, the answer repeated over and over in this thread for those that choose to read - there is no gear treadmill and there is AA (many forms of it)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
If GW2 follows a similar progression model as GW1 we should expect that the character progession doesn't always make you 'stronger' but instead gives you a greater variety of all things, including appearance, skills and ways to defeat enemies. Whether or not that actually makes you stronger would depend on how you make use of them and/or what you are using them against.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
Voila, the power of avoidance.
there is no avoidance, the answer repeated over and over in this thread for those that choose to read - there is no gear treadmill and there is AA (many forms of it)
There is no AA as in advancement... there is just fluff titles and stuff.... but no way to improver your characters abilities.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
Voila, the power of avoidance.
there is no avoidance, the answer repeated over and over in this thread for those that choose to read - there is no gear treadmill and there is AA (many forms of it)
There is no AA as in advancement... there is just fluff titles and stuff.... but no way to improver your characters abilities.
There are traits and enchanting.
I for one don't believe in ever upgradable abiilites in any games, it trivializes all content.
If that's what people mean by progression in this thread, then i'm against it.
there is no avoidance, the answer repeated over and over in this thread for those that choose to read - there is no gear treadmill and there is AA (many forms of it)
There is no gear treadmill, correct. There is also no answer proving there are forms of alternate advancement. Skill/Trait/Gear selection are all optimizations, not growth. Challenges seem shallow at best as a form of progression. RPG's should allow characters to differentiate themselves in levels of power, and I fear Guild Wars 2 does not provide this.
there is no avoidance, the answer repeated over and over in this thread for those that choose to read - there is no gear treadmill and there is AA (many forms of it)
There is no gear treadmill, correct. There is also no answer proving there are forms of alternate advancement. Skill/Trait/Gear selection are all optimizations, not growth. Challenges seem shallow at best as a form of progression. RPG's should allow characters to differentiate themselves in levels of power, and I fear Guild Wars 2 does not provide this.
You're thinking of MMOs like pen and paper RPGs and you can't.
Gear progression leads ultimately to unbalanced player vs player dinamics and to all previous content to be ignored, in Pen and Paper you can do this easily since there's hardly any cost to get new challenges to players and there's very rarely any PvP.
In a MMO you have to keep those things in check.
I, as much as anyone, love progression my characters via gear or new abilities, but i've been in too many MMOs to know that it just trivializes the game, makes PvP less fun and ultimately turns the game into an infinite grind.
Guild Wars 2 will not provide that need (at least so it seems) but it will provide much better gaming in other areas, i like the idea that hard content will be hard no matter what kind of gear you use, i like the idea that i can make a new character and still be viable in pvp and most then all i like the idea that the player will determine how good the character is and not the gear it has.
All in all different progressions, but still progression.
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
Those are all very interesting game activities, but that isn't progression. Progression, as was stated in a nearby post has to do with character advancement. It is progressing a character in depth and power. Sometimes this is just levelling, but it can be a part of level cap as well.
Traditional character progression, as embodied in Lineage, was level based with gear and skills playing a key part as well.
In EQ2 character progression in levels, gear, and AA. In RIFT character progression is centered around levels to a limited extent, gear, and Planar Achievement. In Ryzom and EVE character progression is about skill advancement among other things. Those are all fairly different games yet all offer progression. They also all offer the same or similar systems and activities you mention above.
simple analagy, the toolbox.
Themepark tier based vertical progression, typically = stats. Liken this to having 1 tool that you sharpen continually.
In GW2 & Eve, you sharpen all your tools to max sharpness, BUT you get to add more tools to the toolbox, all of which are optimal in different scenarios.
having 1 tool that gets sharper or having a toolbox that expands, both are advancement of power and skill aka progression.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Themepark tier based vertical progression, typically = stats. Liken this to having 1 tool that you sharpen continually.
In GW2 & Eve, you sharpen all your tools to max sharpness, BUT you get to add more tools to the toolbox, all of which are optimal in different scenarios.
having 1 tool that gets sharper or having a toolbox that expands, both are advancement of power and skill aka progression.
Yes, in EVE different ships are made for different jobs like in Guild Wars different skills are optimal for different situations. Yet, there very much is a power progression in EVE via more powerful ships, more powerful fittings, etc.
I for one wont miss the gear treadmill. I've always enjoyed the journey more then the destination. The last thing I want from an mmo is to spend months running the same raids over and over for better gear thats obsolete a few months later. Good Riddance. I'll take triats and enchants that will always be useful over the gear treadmill anyday.
Comments
This thread is just another whining QQ thread because GW2 won't have RAIDing in it. I am sorry, every game does not have to be a progression gear grind, live with it.
The OP does have a point. Even though many will just enjoy all the variety and action GW2 has planned, a lot of people will end up at max level and wonder what will keep them playing. And I know there is no subs and people will try other games and come back because it is free after box purchase, but low playing population is not good for those playing. If GW2 delivers on all the features and added content they are promising, I don't see this as a problem, because leveling should fun enough to try many alts.
As for the community, I think that guilds will be very important to be a good micro-community. With soloing and being able to do DE's without grouping, overall community could suffer. Not to be old-schoolish, but in EQ you pretty much had to group to level and do majority of content, so if you were an a-hole you got weeded out and had trouble playing. It was forced (not saying that was a good thing, but it did kind of enforce some civility and coop). But guilds will be important in world v world pvp for strategy, etc and i believe DE's will be much better doing with group of friends or guildees for strategy, RP, tactics, etc, while joining in solo would feel more like spg action game.
I don't know how this game can live up to the high expectations they have built, but if they deliver on a high percentage of their stated goals for the game, it should be a great game.
It allways has been chracter (not gear) progression that kept me playing. Wether it was AA in EQ1 and EQ2 or realmpoints in DAOC, improving my character has allways been the core of my MMO experience..
In most games i start loosing interest when i cant get any more abillities.
For 90% of the MMO community its progression that keeps them playing. Even in The orriginal GW game, there where the skills one could aquire at max level, which kept me occupied for quite some time.
I really agree that GW2 would be perfect for annAA syatem some time after release.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
That's what I loved about Guild Wars. The game STARTED at max level. Everything before then was pretty much a tutorial, getting you used to the game before throwing some nasty as hell challenges at you (and that was before you even had hard mode to deal with)
For Factions this was more true than ever. The second you got off the starting island, EVERYTHING was max level and higher.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
Wow, I had never seen that image. On-topic: Nice post, good suggestion at the end for anyone with similar fears.
That medium armor you linked looks amazing. Glad I'm into the ranger class with that on offer.
Wow, some of you really practice the power of avoidance. The OP's question is simple: Will there be any deep and significant form of developing his character and making him more powerful after reaching level 80? Stat allocation, skill selection, and gear choice has nothing to do with progression and development. It has to do with optimization.
BTW, resorting to arguments like: "Oh Guild Wars 2 isn't your type of game. There are loads of other games out there for you." Well, excuse me, but Dungeons and Dragons, the game that consolidated and formally established the RPG genre, considers character progression a pivotal part of the experience. People don't play RPG's for twich-based gameplay, that's what FPS's are for. RPG's are about developing characters and seeing them grow.
http://haikai.net/guildwars.html is where I got that image. They're from a freelance artist that did in game renders for GW2 and has a bunch of armor sets on his site.
To stealth, Why does progression have to mean that the farther you progress the easier the game becomes?
Think about WOW, once you had your BiS gear, all the raids/heroics were EXTREMELY easy except for maybe 1-2 bosses.
And, if you went to a level 30 zone as a level 85 you'd one shot everything, in GW2 neither of these things happens.
Progression is by looks, read my really long post in red above
PVE progression:
- Full explorable mode instance clears.
- Large scale DE finished.
- Achievements.
- Traits.
- Crafting.
- Personal Story
- Personal house / district
- WvWvW PVE achievements
- Exploration achievements
- Karma points
PVP progression:
- "Scenario" Ladder Rating.
- WvWvW ladder and realm pride.
- Karma
It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.
Character progression has to do with character growth, character advancement, becoming more powerful. Skill/Gear selection and attribute allocation are merely optimizations not progression.
Listed like that, and that's just at launch..it's more than what I'm getting from SWTOR or Rift and I like these games just not enough to stay subbed past the 2-3 month mark. Just reading this list I'm already jonesing for GW2. Can't wait.
Voila, the power of avoidance.
there is no avoidance, the answer repeated over and over in this thread for those that choose to read - there is no gear treadmill and there is AA (many forms of it)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
If GW2 follows a similar progression model as GW1 we should expect that the character progession doesn't always make you 'stronger' but instead gives you a greater variety of all things, including appearance, skills and ways to defeat enemies. Whether or not that actually makes you stronger would depend on how you make use of them and/or what you are using them against.
There is no AA as in advancement... there is just fluff titles and stuff.... but no way to improver your characters abilities.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I just hope that they don't add any reputation based pve skills, god I hate grinding rep for PvE skills.
There are traits and enchanting.
I for one don't believe in ever upgradable abiilites in any games, it trivializes all content.
If that's what people mean by progression in this thread, then i'm against it.
There is no gear treadmill, correct. There is also no answer proving there are forms of alternate advancement. Skill/Trait/Gear selection are all optimizations, not growth. Challenges seem shallow at best as a form of progression. RPG's should allow characters to differentiate themselves in levels of power, and I fear Guild Wars 2 does not provide this.
You're thinking of MMOs like pen and paper RPGs and you can't.
Gear progression leads ultimately to unbalanced player vs player dinamics and to all previous content to be ignored, in Pen and Paper you can do this easily since there's hardly any cost to get new challenges to players and there's very rarely any PvP.
In a MMO you have to keep those things in check.
I, as much as anyone, love progression my characters via gear or new abilities, but i've been in too many MMOs to know that it just trivializes the game, makes PvP less fun and ultimately turns the game into an infinite grind.
Guild Wars 2 will not provide that need (at least so it seems) but it will provide much better gaming in other areas, i like the idea that hard content will be hard no matter what kind of gear you use, i like the idea that i can make a new character and still be viable in pvp and most then all i like the idea that the player will determine how good the character is and not the gear it has.
All in all different progressions, but still progression.
simple analagy, the toolbox.
Themepark tier based vertical progression, typically = stats. Liken this to having 1 tool that you sharpen continually.
In GW2 & Eve, you sharpen all your tools to max sharpness, BUT you get to add more tools to the toolbox, all of which are optimal in different scenarios.
having 1 tool that gets sharper or having a toolbox that expands, both are advancement of power and skill aka progression.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Yes, in EVE different ships are made for different jobs like in Guild Wars different skills are optimal for different situations. Yet, there very much is a power progression in EVE via more powerful ships, more powerful fittings, etc.
There will be gear progression in GW2(even after lvl 80)It just won't make a difference in PvP
I'm not seeing the problem with that honestly
I for one wont miss the gear treadmill. I've always enjoyed the journey more then the destination. The last thing I want from an mmo is to spend months running the same raids over and over for better gear thats obsolete a few months later. Good Riddance. I'll take triats and enchants that will always be useful over the gear treadmill anyday.
Nope. Gear progression stops shortly after reaching level 80 (unless you mean cosmetic or horizontal progression).