Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Blizz philosophy of difficulty design ...

13

Comments

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by CalmOceans


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game. 

     

    It is reasonable, in WoW everyone expects to raid, everyone expects to be able to do heroics, everyone expects to get everything. Before WoW that wasn't the case. Gimme gimme gimme, and the game goes down the drain.

    That's the reason everyone makes jokes about WoW in games like EQ and other games, they made a game everyone could play, from moms who have never touched a game in their life to 14-year-olds doing raids.

     

    LOL .. it is a GAME.

    It is certainly NOT reasonable, in any developer perspective, that only 4% (or 2% in sunwell) of its player base have seen the content.

    Of course a CONSUMER of ENTERTAINMENT product can expect what to get out of the experience. People can vote with their MONEY, you know.

    And saying a 10M player game is "going down the drain" just because you don't like it is laughable. I am glad you are not in chrage. Otherwise, only 10 people in the world will enjoy your game.

     

    Oh, yes, its much more reasonable to be forced to push out content every 2 months, otherwise people leave, like Rift, or people quitting between content patches because they are bored, like in wow.

    As for wow down the drain, i would not be that pesimistic, all whe have seen is a stagnation and slight decrease after the game became the way it is now, people like me will attribute this to the changes, people like you will say it was just a coincidence that the player numbers and especially retention took a turn to the worse, that the game just got old overnight with the release of end-of-TBC changes, 3.0 and wotlk.

    Its all opinion :)

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    LOL .. it is a GAME.

    It is certainly NOT reasonable, in any developer perspective, that only 4% (or 2% in sunwell) of its player base have seen the content.

    Of course a CONSUMER of ENTERTAINMENT product can expect what to get out of the experience. People can vote with their MONEY, you know.

    And saying a 10M player game is "going down the drain" just because you don't like it is laughable. I am glad you are not in chrage. Otherwise, only 10 people in the world will enjoy your game.

    Blizzard  are on the other hand the company that made it so you can move through 90% of the game in a few weeks and then have to spend 2 years in the 10% that is the endgame until next expansion comes out.

    That you spend 90% of your time in 10% of the game does not really add up that great either.

    As for the raiding do I think Blizz can add a few really hard raids as well. 3 raids for thse 1% is not too much work, a game needs to offer both easy and hard stuff. Too many is a waste of resources, they are right there.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by Loke666

    As for the raiding do I think Blizz can add a few really hard raids as well. 3 raids for thse 1% is not too much work, a game needs to offer both easy and hard stuff. Too many is a waste of resources, they are right there.

     

    Didn't they do that already? It is called hard mode raiding (for the 0.01% really hard core players). There is no reason why they shouldn't use the same art assets and similar mechnics design. More bang for the buck.

    In fact, MMO is not the only games that do that. All the action RPGs like Diablo have different difficulties.

  • OtomoxOtomox Member UncommonPosts: 303

    I dont get it why everyone should be accomplished in a mmorpg. Few things should be a challenge for a minority and this casual talk in wow kills me always inside. If u just have 1 hour why dont ya just enjoy the game and explore it instead of demanding that everything that is made for groups and masses is made piss easy so u could play it.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by Otomox

    I dont get it why everyone should be accomplished in a mmorpg. Few things should be a challenge for a minority and this casual talk in wow kills me always inside. If u just have 1 hour why dont ya just enjoy the game and explore it instead of demanding that everything that is made for groups and masses is made piss easy so u could play it.

     

    Didn't you actually READ? Not everyone is accomplished. Only 4% of the players finished DS on normal mode and less than 0.01% finished hard mode.

    If that is "everyone", you really need to look up what "everyone" means.

  • 69Cuda69Cuda Member Posts: 251

    Possibly the people raiding the "easy" version do not see the "hard" version as content. Why do the same thing I just did but harder. It is still the same thing and I get  a few more stats on the same gear right...pass. I have a freind that still plays and she raids all the time. All the easy stuff. She has 0 interest in the "real" versions of it (her words) and neither do all her freinds that play.

    Couldn't be apathy on the higher difficulties could it?

    If only xx percent care about the "harder" versions well....only xx percent are going to attempt it. And complete it. The rest  are going to hit a wall and quit. Not keep trying.

    People just don't care about raiding like they used to. It is something to do for gear and it needs to be fast and simple and I gtg in a few so hurry up.. Thats it. LFR IS THE NEW ENDGAME.

    Hard Modes aren't content. It is beating a game then smashing your hand to try and do it again one handed. It isnt content. It's stupid.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by 69Cuda

    Possibly the people raiding the "easy" version do not see the "hard" version as content. Why do the same thing I just did but harder. It is still the same thing and I get  a few more stats on the same gear right...pass. I have a freind that still plays and she raids all the time. All the easy stuff. She has 0 interest in the "real" versions of it (her words) and neither do all her freinds that play.

     

    If you read this site, you would be led to believe that there is this hardcore NICHE of players who actually like a challenge. I guess there isn't enough to these people to go around. May be they just talk the big talk and never try a hard mode raid when the challenge is there.

    Note that you do not need to do the easy thing. If you like a challenge, you can go straight to do a hard mode raid.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by 69Cuda

    People just don't care about raiding like they used to.

    When? :)

  • Sanity888Sanity888 Member UncommonPosts: 185

    Blizz's philosophy regarding difficultly has been, "make it easy to play, hard to master." The problem is, now the game is too easy to play and too hard to master.

  • EbonyflyEbonyfly Member Posts: 255

    I think we all agree that WoW has some easy content and some hard content. Having some hard content doesn't make the whole game difficult. When people say 'WoW is easy' just assume they are about the 80% of content that actually is pretty easy.

    As I tried to explain in an earlier post, a low % of people completing a raid doesn't objectively indicate that the raid is difficult, only that the raid is too difficult for the people attempting it. Bear in mind that many of the people who enjoy tough and chllenging games will have moved on from WoW a long-time ago.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by Ebonyfly

    I think we all agree that WoW has some easy content and some hard content. Having some hard content doesn't make the whole game difficult. When people say 'WoW is easy' just assume they are about the 80% of content that actually is pretty easy.

    As I tried to explain in an earlier post, a low % of people completing a raid doesn't objectively indicate that the raid is difficult, only that the raid is too difficult for the people attempting it. Bear in mind that many of the people who enjoy tough and chllenging games will have moved on from WoW a long-time ago.

     

    Well that is enough reason to make it easier. The people who attempt it are the ones who are interested in that content. In fact, if you read the original post, blizz has stated that many are hitting a brick wall and giving up. Perfectly reason to adjust the difficulty DOWN.

  • XstylesXstyles Member Posts: 107

    Easy solution and why vanilla was better than everything else..

    -- Remove the bloody Valor and Justice points!! --

    -Then people can't skip content, they can't start raiding the newest raid before people are geared towards that particular raid.

    -BoE epics are not gonna be useless in a current expansion and are going more in market than before.

    -Instances are being run by people who need the gear, not by people who are steamrolling through and complaining at how easy it is. Plus there's no need to make new instances that offer better gear.

    -PvP gear needs to be PvP ONLY!! So that players can't equip them while in a raid instance. This will keep PvP and PvE players on a more equal base and people can't abuse a raid by going in with their newest arena gear,

    -Hardcore players can boost their E-peen by saying that they have completed the best raids in the game and are ahead in progress.

     

    I'm sure that there are a lot more advantages if they did this. The disadvantages can easily be taken care of.

    image
  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551

    Originally posted by 69Cuda

    Part of the problem with the difficulty arguments that doesn't seem to be factored in (statistically at least) is that raiding or should I say the fundamental IDEA of raiding has changed.

    Raiding is a shadow of it's former glory. IN DESIGN. Fun is subjective. For me WoWs raiding now.....Is learn the dance, get my loot , log off. So I quit raiding which in turn...I quit paying and playing. I only played wow for the raiding. I dont care about the difficulty anymore. I just don't like raiding anymore. There is no point to it. the only winning move. Is not to play.

     

     

    PS sorry am bored so thought Id write a novel while waiting for my 600 some odd skyrim mods to download (

    I doubt you would say that Blizzard should actively promote a style of play where only people without any form of real life obligation may participate.  When that player strolls into Orgrimmar or Stormwind with his uber bow of leetness, he may get stares from all the players in the area, but at the end of the day, it's all pixels and the guy should have real life obligations that prevent him from spending so much time in a video game.

    In the end, I think there is more than one type of raider.  Primarily, I think there are those that raid for the sake of feeling superior, like the player in the example I listed above.  Playing through the raid encounter mechanics alongside a team of guild members isn't really the driving factor.  Better gear in and of itself isn't really even the driving factor.  Rather, the driving factor appears to be his or her ability to set themselves apart from the rest of the pack, hence the huge outcry from the raiding community when Blizzard started handing out epic items through rep grinds and badge trading, nevermind the fact that the raiders still had the best gear in terms of the stats on the armor pieces.  Because they could no longer stroll into Shattrath "looking" distinct from everyone else, raiding lost its appeal.

    On the other side of the coin, you have a group of players which actually enjoy fighting through the raid mechanics with a team of their guild members.  Of course, this group of players still feels a sense of accomplishment when downing a boss, but primarily, they feel a sense of progression as they fight through each encounter in a raid zone as well as a feeling of progression in terms of the type of gear they acquire.  They are not so much interested in obtaining gear that makes them distinct from other players, rather they are interested in obtaining simply the best gear they can achieve regardless of how many other players of the same class currently have that gear.  This group of players is far less interested in how other people view them and far more concerned about how they view themselves.  As long as they have the best gear available to them, they are having fun regardless of whether or not they are distinct.

  • EbonyflyEbonyfly Member Posts: 255

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Ebonyfly

    I think we all agree that WoW has some easy content and some hard content. Having some hard content doesn't make the whole game difficult. When people say 'WoW is easy' just assume they are about the 80% of content that actually is pretty easy.

    As I tried to explain in an earlier post, a low % of people completing a raid doesn't objectively indicate that the raid is difficult, only that the raid is too difficult for the people attempting it. Bear in mind that many of the people who enjoy tough and chllenging games will have moved on from WoW a long-time ago.

     

    Well that is enough reason to make it easier. The people who attempt it are the ones who are interested in that content. In fact, if you read the original post, blizz has stated that many are hitting a brick wall and giving up. Perfectly reason to adjust the difficulty DOWN.

    Agreed. I have no problem with Blizzard's policy, it's been very successful for them.

    What I don't understand is why you object to WoW being called easy while explaining that Blizzard have a strategy that inevitably leads to the game being easier and easier.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Originally posted by Xstyles

    Easy solution and why vanilla was better than everything else..

    -- Remove the bloody Valor and Justice points!! --

    -Then people can't skip content, they can't start raiding the newest raid before people are geared towards that particular raid.

    -BoE epics are not gonna be useless in a current expansion and are going more in market than before.

    -Instances are being run by people who need the gear, not by people who are steamrolling through and complaining at how easy it is. Plus there's no need to make new instances that offer better gear.

    -PvP gear needs to be PvP ONLY!! So that players can't equip them while in a raid instance. This will keep PvP and PvE players on a more equal base and people can't abuse a raid by going in with their newest arena gear,

    -Hardcore players can boost their E-peen by saying that they have completed the best raids in the game and are ahead in progress.

    I'm sure that there are a lot more advantages if they did this. The disadvantages can easily be taken care of.

    That's the fastest way to destroy WOW's raiding game: make it so time-consuming to get to the end of raiding content that the number of people who've reached the final raid doesn't even fill up one guild.

    That's the #1 disadvantage, and unless you're proposing a sidekick system of some sort, it's not "easily taken care of" apart from making earlier content progress faster (which is what WOW does, and which is partially the point of Valor/Justice points.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Xstyles

    Easy solution and why vanilla was better than everything else..

    -- Remove the bloody Valor and Justice points!! --

    -Then people can't skip content, they can't start raiding the newest raid before people are geared towards that particular raid.

    -BoE epics are not gonna be useless in a current expansion and are going more in market than before.

    -Instances are being run by people who need the gear, not by people who are steamrolling through and complaining at how easy it is. Plus there's no need to make new instances that offer better gear.

    -PvP gear needs to be PvP ONLY!! So that players can't equip them while in a raid instance. This will keep PvP and PvE players on a more equal base and people can't abuse a raid by going in with their newest arena gear,

    -Hardcore players can boost their E-peen by saying that they have completed the best raids in the game and are ahead in progress.

    I'm sure that there are a lot more advantages if they did this. The disadvantages can easily be taken care of.

    That's the fastest way to destroy WOW's raiding game: make it so time-consuming to get to the end of raiding content that the number of people who've reached the final raid doesn't even fill up one guild.

    That's the #1 disadvantage, and unless you're proposing a sidekick system of some sort, it's not "easily taken care of" apart from making earlier content progress faster (which is what WOW does, and which is partially the point of Valor/Justice points.)

    And here we go again, vanilla and tbc never existed, blablabla, whats new?

    But you are right is one thing, making raids more exclusive and harder would probably finish the game at this stage, because there is nothing else left besides pvp :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by Ebonyfly

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Ebonyfly

    I think we all agree that WoW has some easy content and some hard content. Having some hard content doesn't make the whole game difficult. When people say 'WoW is easy' just assume they are about the 80% of content that actually is pretty easy.

    As I tried to explain in an earlier post, a low % of people completing a raid doesn't objectively indicate that the raid is difficult, only that the raid is too difficult for the people attempting it. Bear in mind that many of the people who enjoy tough and chllenging games will have moved on from WoW a long-time ago.

     

    Well that is enough reason to make it easier. The people who attempt it are the ones who are interested in that content. In fact, if you read the original post, blizz has stated that many are hitting a brick wall and giving up. Perfectly reason to adjust the difficulty DOWN.

    Agreed. I have no problem with Blizzard's policy, it's been very successful for them.

    What I don't understand is why you object to WoW being called easy while explaining that Blizzard have a strategy that inevitably leads to the game being easier and easier.



    Ah .. good question. Because WOW difficulty is not uniform. It is obviously hard for hard mode raiding. That is true now and it is true back in WOTLK and people are just ignoring it.

     

    And it is even more sarcastic when i bet most who cry "WOW is easy" cannot even finish the normal mode raid.

    WOW is not getting easy and easy. WOW is getting more widely separated CHOICES of difficulties. VERY difficult at hard mode. Still difficult with single digit people (which i guess the number will get a bit bigger) at normal mode, and more assessible at LFR.

    Even a 35% number is NOT the majority. The majority of players are simply not ready to raid.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by nariusseldon



    Ah .. good question. Because WOW difficulty is not uniform. It is obviously hard for hard mode raiding. That is true now and it is true back in WOTLK and people are just ignoring it.

     

    And it is even more sarcastic when i bet most who cry "WOW is easy" cannot even finish the normal mode raid.

    WOW is not getting easy and easy. WOW is getting more widely separated CHOICES of difficulties. VERY difficult at hard mode. Still difficult with single digit people (which i guess the number will get a bit bigger) at normal mode, and more assessible at LFR.

    Even a 35% number is NOT the majority. The majority of players are simply not ready to raid.

    Some things to consider

    - are we so out of content that we expect everyone (or the majority) to raid, considering the sheer difference in gameplay speed, determination and ability of players?

    - is it nowadays really considered "not getting enough for the money" if someone does not get to finish the last raid of the expansion before the next expansion hits?

    - how far can the difficulty be scaled and rules softened before we stop having a reason to have any levels, outside zones and dungeons in the game?

     

    Just some doom and gloom for your gall-bladder :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Originally posted by nariusseldon



    Ah .. good question. Because WOW difficulty is not uniform. It is obviously hard for hard mode raiding. That is true now and it is true back in WOTLK and people are just ignoring it.

     

    And it is even more sarcastic when i bet most who cry "WOW is easy" cannot even finish the normal mode raid.

    WOW is not getting easy and easy. WOW is getting more widely separated CHOICES of difficulties. VERY difficult at hard mode. Still difficult with single digit people (which i guess the number will get a bit bigger) at normal mode, and more assessible at LFR.

    Even a 35% number is NOT the majority. The majority of players are simply not ready to raid.

    Some things to consider

    - are we so out of content that we expect everyone (or the majority) to raid, considering the sheer difference in gameplay speed, determination and ability of players?

    - is it nowadays really considered "not getting enough for the money" if someone does not get to finish the last raid of the expansion before the next expansion hits?

    - how far can the difficulty be scaled and rules softened before we stop having a reason to have any levels, outside zones and dungeons in the game?

     

    Just some doom and gloom for your gall-bladder :)

    1) I suppose not. Raid is just a part of the end game choices. In fact, if you look at wow (since i have no other stat, so wow is going to be the example), ONLY 35% of the players finished LFR. So i guess not even a majority of players raid in WOW. The numbers are probably LOWER in other MMOs since WOW is the only one (correct me if this is wrong) with a LFR feature.

    In fact, WOW is adding 'scenarios' in the next expansion, so i am hoping there is one more things to do at the end game.

    2) I don't know about others but I think i am getting less value if i do not get to see all the content. This is particularly true when Blizz put so much resources in making the raids. Dungeons are not cheap to make and it makes little sense, from a company perspective, if only a few percentage of the players will ever see it. In fact, i go back to do BC raids just to see them.

    3) Apparently there is a LONG WAY. Right now Blizz is merely putting in like 5% hp/damage nerfs per month on the NORMAL raids. Even if you just look at the normal raid, it will be a LONG time before a MAJORITY of players can/will do them.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852

    In either case, I personally beleive that whether they made a harder game in some aspects of it or not is kind of irrelevant when one of the real reasons Blizz is losing customers is the advent of F2P games.

    Hard or easy, means nothing when people have the choice of Free.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    1) I suppose not. Raid is just a part of the end game choices. In fact, if you look at wow (since i have no other stat, so wow is going to be the example), ONLY 35% of the players finished LFR. So i guess not even a majority of players raid in WOW. The numbers are probably LOWER in other MMOs since WOW is the only one (correct me if this is wrong) with a LFR feature.

    In fact, WOW is adding 'scenarios' in the next expansion, so i am hoping there is one more things to do at the end game.

    2) I don't know about others but I think i am getting less value if i do not get to see all the content. This is particularly true when Blizz put so much resources in making the raids. Dungeons are not cheap to make and it makes little sense, from a company perspective, if only a few percentage of the players will ever see it. In fact, i go back to do BC raids just to see them.

    3) Apparently there is a LONG WAY. Right now Blizz is merely putting in like 5% hp/damage nerfs per month on the NORMAL raids. Even if you just look at the normal raid, it will be a LONG time before a MAJORITY of players can/will do them.

    1) I hope so.

    2) this is one thing , which i mentioned because it gets thrown around a great deal recently "if i cannot do it NOW its bad!" and "company perspective", and i have problems understanding it. You say that you go visit TBC but on the other hand you think you are getting less value if you cannot visit new things, where do you see a difference between TBC and "now" ? Are you bored because of 1) ?

    Dunno, even leveling zones (you skip), quests (you skip) and reputations (you skip) cost money...

    3) Again, i hope so.

  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760

    Originally posted by Sanity888

    Blizz's philosophy regarding difficultly has been, "make it easy to play, hard to master." The problem is, now the game is too easy to play and too hard to master.

    i think that in some cases the game seems easier cause we've played it for so long. in some cases 7yrs or so. if i imagined myself a new player and completely new mmo's im not sure i would find the game all that easy. there's a lot to take in. hell i remember my first time trying to leave UC i couldnt find the f-ing way out for hours.

    theres a lot to take in and i think the veterans of the game take that for granted sometimes and call stuff dumbed down and easy.

    I've got the straight edge.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls Member Posts: 2,951

    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    Just wait till GW2, then all this WoW business will be over. Hopefully.

    Exactly i'm with you bub 100%, this game is going to change everything. MMO's that fail to meet expectations of players after this one launches will fail. we're already seeing it. A distaste for the unnecessary overhyped monthly sub, desire to do something other then dungeons/dailies all day, need for a dynamic environment instead of a linear questline system with fixed options and poor ui. It's getting old i tell yeah and the GW2 fans on this site and others aren't the only ones who are getting weary from the crap that's being passed off as a AAA title these days.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,344
    Originally posted by itgrowls


    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    Just wait till GW2, then all this WoW business will be over. Hopefully.

    Exactly i'm with you bub 100%, this game is going to change everything. MMO's that fail to meet expectations of players after this one launches will fail. we're already seeing it. A distaste for the unnecessary overhyped monthly sub, desire to do something other then dungeons/dailies all day, need for a dynamic environment instead of a linear questline system with fixed options and poor ui. It's getting old i tell yeah and the GW2 fans on this site and others aren't the only ones who are getting weary from the crap that's being passed off as a AAA title these days.

     

    Why not wait for the game to actually come out before making such wild claims...

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    Just wait till GW2, then all this WoW business will be over. Hopefully.

    it will not be over as long as you dont have to take your WoW subscription and use it with GW2 which you wont because its free.





Sign In or Register to comment.