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Blizz philosophy of difficulty design ...

nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

quotes from Blizz, posted on MMO-CHAMPION.

Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether.



The issue we're constantly trying to combat is the one where people feel like they're just out of options. One way this is an issue is the content is too easy, they blasted through it, have everything they could possibly want, and have nothing else to do. Ideally that's a small subset of very hardcore players. For everyone else it's a feeling of just being stuck with no possible way to progress. Very few players are willing to suit up, buff up, do all the necessary requirements to raid, jump in, and then do no better than they did last week for hours and hours, only to return next week and do the same.

If they don't have to be like us, why do they have to have nerfs to get to our position in HM Raiding?

Because they want to and they pay the same amount for the game? I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?



Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.

--------------------------

Totally agreed with Blizz. There is no point to design the game only for the top 1% hard core players. They blow through all the content in no time anyway.

And those who claimed WOW is too easy, and I quote "Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether."

People here really have no credibiltiy about what is "difficult". Blizzard is doing it right to have statistics. If 90% people are wiping attempts after attempts, it is probably too difficult.

I know people talk big here. I highly doubt all the big talkers are all in the 1% who clear all the hard mode fast.

 

 

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Comments

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770

    You think Blizzard is the only one to use statistics for balancing difficulty?

    The statistics aren't released so how do we know they aren't nefing it too much? It is just a matter of who's word you want to believe.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    It is quite simple, the more you simplify the game and phase out non raid content the more people are in the position where only top level raids are left to do, the more people do the top level raids, the more people unwilling or unable to do them are funneled into doing them, the more people unable or unwilling fail at them, the more people are unhappy, the more people are unhappy, the more likely you make the raids easyer, the more you make the raids easyer, the more people, who are actually able to do them, will be unhappy because there is now nothing left to do :)

    What now?

  • kalmahkalmah Member Posts: 47

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Totally agreed with Blizz. There is no point to design the game only for the top 1% hard core players. They blow through all the content in no time anyway.

    And those who claimed WOW is too easy, and I quote "Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether."

    People here really have no credibiltiy about what is "difficult". Blizzard is doing it right to have statistics. If 90% people are wiping attempts after attempts, it is probably too difficult.

    I know people talk big here. I highly doubt all the big talkers are all in the 1% who clear all the hard mode fast.

     

     

    Why can't clearing content be a prestigious feat? I guarantee the average player likes to have something other players do not, uniqueness. For those that don't have that, should strive to try to achieve obtaining it. Content should be difficult and is obviously not impossible in it's current form. Why shouldn't skill reward players? If it ends up getting dumbed down so much that everyone can do it, why do it in the first place?

    In Vanilla WoW even MC gear was feasible at towards the end of it, and the content still presented a challenge to most players at the time. Current content retains its replayability longer if its harder.

    Porn has voice acting, who doesn't skip it?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    You think Blizzard is the only one to use statistics for balancing difficulty?

    The statistics aren't released so how do we know they aren't nefing it too much? It is just a matter of who's word you want to believe.

     

    If i have to choose, i will believe those who have information (i.e. Blizz with their stat) than those who knows nothing but their own opinions.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by kalmah

     

    Why can't clearing content be a prestigious feat? I guarantee the average player likes to have something other players do not, uniqueness. For those that don't have that, should strive to try to achieve obtaining it. Content should be difficult and is obviously not impossible in it's current form. Why shouldn't skill reward players? If it ends up getting dumbed down so much that everyone can do it, why do it in the first place?

    In Vanilla WoW even MC gear was feasible at towards the end of it, and the content still presented a challenge to most players at the time. Current content retains its replayability longer if its harder.

    Because the fun for the player is going through the content and content is expensive to make. So it make no sense to let only 1% of the players to see an expensive part of the game.

    Plus, it is still not everyone gets to do hard mode. As long as it is not 100%, skill does reward players.

  • OnomicOnomic Member Posts: 196

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    quotes from Blizz, posted on MMO-CHAMPION.

    Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether.



    The issue we're constantly trying to combat is the one where people feel like they're just out of options. One way this is an issue is the content is too easy, they blasted through it, have everything they could possibly want, and have nothing else to do. Ideally that's a small subset of very hardcore players. For everyone else it's a feeling of just being stuck with no possible way to progress. Very few players are willing to suit up, buff up, do all the necessary requirements to raid, jump in, and then do no better than they did last week for hours and hours, only to return next week and do the same.

    If they don't have to be like us, why do they have to have nerfs to get to our position in HM Raiding?

    Because they want to and they pay the same amount for the game? I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?



    Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.

    --------------------------

    Totally agreed with Blizz. There is no point to design the game only for the top 1% hard core players. They blow through all the content in no time anyway.

    And those who claimed WOW is too easy, and I quote "Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether."

    People here really have no credibiltiy about what is "difficult". Blizzard is doing it right to have statistics. If 90% people are wiping attempts after attempts, it is probably too difficult.

    I know people talk big here. I highly doubt all the big talkers are all in the 1% who clear all the hard mode fast.

     

     

    I know i wont last long in raid groups, but thats not where i have complaind it easy. its the level group content that is so easy that it becomes boreing.

    I have a friend that have raided in wow for 6 years now and there it looks realy challening hes guild stil wipe, but that does not help me at all when the group content befor 85 is so easy that it realy aint fun playing.

    Befor wotlk CC was need in group content, you couldt pull more then 3 targets and that was max. 4 might work if you had an awsome team with a great tank. If you managed more then this you will get a pat on the back from me and ill call you uber in early wow :) I never saw that in wow the 9months i was puging.

    After wotlk cc was no longer needed, now you usaly pull half the room if not the complete room.

    TL;DR : wow endgame aint easy but the group content while you lvl is way to easy.

  • JohnnyBravolJohnnyBravol Member Posts: 83

    Just wait till GW2, then all this WoW business will be over. Hopefully.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770

    All I know is...for the sake of longevity, having nearly unreachable goals is better to have in MMOs than everything to be completed in a short about of time at a low rate of difficulty.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,344
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    It is quite simple, the more you simplify the game and phase out non raid content the more people are in the position where only top level raids are left to do, the more people do the top level raids, the more people unwilling or unable to do them are funneled into doing them, the more people unable or unwilling fail at them, the more people are unhappy, the more people are unhappy, the more likely you make the raids easyer, the more you make the raids easyer, the more people, who are actually able to do them, will be unhappy because there is now nothing left to do :)
    What now?

     

    No I don't believe you understand the OP's point. To me, it seem like the OP was making a counterclaim on the major argument we see here on this forum, that "WoW is Easy!!"



    yet in the OP post, blizzard stated that most people aren't beating the game as if it was easy.



    so where are all these claims that WoW is easy coming from on these forums?

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    It is quite simple, the more you simplify the game and phase out non raid content the more people are in the position where only top level raids are left to do, the more people do the top level raids, the more people unwilling or unable to do them are funneled into doing them, the more people unable or unwilling fail at them, the more people are unhappy, the more people are unhappy, the more likely you make the raids easyer, the more you make the raids easyer, the more people, who are actually able to do them, will be unhappy because there is now nothing left to do :)

    What now?

     

    No I don't believe you understand the OP's point. To me, it seem like the OP was making a counterclaim on the major argument we see here on this forum, that "WoW is Easy!!"



    yet in the OP post, blizzard stated that most people aren't beating the game as if it was easy.



    so where are all these claims that WoW is easy coming from on these forums?

    K, point taken, i will try to be relevant.

    Apart from usual rubbish people write :) , most of the "WoW is too easy" comes from perception, how people define easy, how people define endgame for themselves, how people define "beating the game".

    For some people getting to the last raid and killing few bosses IS beating the game, no matter how much we say "butbutbut how about HM25LASTBOSS?!?".

    What is the ultimate sign of being "done" ? Killing the last boss or being in a position where apart doing some action once per week there is nothing much left to do? How many people are in that position now, how many were in the past, how many actually WANT to be in that position?

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,344
    Originally posted by Onomic


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    quotes from Blizz, posted on MMO-CHAMPION.
    Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether.



    The issue we're constantly trying to combat is the one where people feel like they're just out of options. One way this is an issue is the content is too easy, they blasted through it, have everything they could possibly want, and have nothing else to do. Ideally that's a small subset of very hardcore players. For everyone else it's a feeling of just being stuck with no possible way to progress. Very few players are willing to suit up, buff up, do all the necessary requirements to raid, jump in, and then do no better than they did last week for hours and hours, only to return next week and do the same.

    If they don't have to be like us, why do they have to have nerfs to get to our position in HM Raiding?

    Because they want to and they pay the same amount for the game? I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?



    Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.

    --------------------------
    Totally agreed with Blizz. There is no point to design the game only for the top 1% hard core players. They blow through all the content in no time anyway.
    And those who claimed WOW is too easy, and I quote "Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether."
    People here really have no credibiltiy about what is "difficult". Blizzard is doing it right to have statistics. If 90% people are wiping attempts after attempts, it is probably too difficult.
    I know people talk big here. I highly doubt all the big talkers are all in the 1% who clear all the hard mode fast.
     
     

    I know i wont last long in raid groups, but thats not where i have complaind it easy. its the level group content that is so easy that it becomes boreing.

    I have a friend that have raided in wow for 6 years now and there it looks realy challening hes guild stil wipe, but that does not help me at all when the group content befor 85 is so easy that it realy aint fun playing.

    Befor wotlk CC was need in group content, you couldt pull more then 3 targets and that was max. 4 might work if you had an awsome team with a great tank. If you managed more then this you will get a pat on the back from me and ill call you uber in early wow :) I never saw that in wow the 9months i was puging.

    After wotlk cc was no longer needed, now you usaly pull half the room if not the complete room.

    TL;DR : wow endgame aint easy but the group content while you lvl is way to easy.

     

    Iam sorry, but that's the source of the major argument that WoW is easy, than you need to stop playing all THEMEPARK MMO.



    vanilla WoW contents, and all over contents that came before current x-PAC stuff, are designed and balanced around older rulesets.
    This is clearly visible when you play a PvPvE battleground like AV. The NPC in AV were designed around Vanilla WoW, but with a level 60 CAT character or even back in TBC character, those NPC aren't prepared for the classes new set of talent skills and other class changes made to the classes. In other words, the old contents, is not balanced around the new xpac characters. It's never been. This argument is just dull and void. When has leveling content ever been hard outside of instances anyway? The hard gameplay always came from instances. And Blizzard has shown with stats that most people are not blowing through instances like people argue on this site. The leveling is easy, yes. Just like every other solo friendly MMO, but when the game reaches endgame, the gameplay is the hardest out there.



    blizzard made the mistake of listening to the complaints of members like you who constantly complained that WoW is easy, yet the whole time you have never completed a endgame raid,,, all you were talking about was the leveling. Lol. GTFO HERE WITH THAT SHIT!!! Blizzard decided to turn up the endgame difficulty, which ran a lot of people off, because they hit that wall early on this time rather than later.



    next time somebody wants to talk all this mess about WoW being easy,,, well than SHOW US YOUR ARMORY!!!!

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • OnomicOnomic Member Posts: 196

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Onomic 

    I know i wont last long in raid groups, but thats not where i have complaind it easy. its the level group content that is so easy that it becomes boreing.

    I have a friend that have raided in wow for 6 years now and there it looks realy challening hes guild stil wipe, but that does not help me at all when the group content befor 85 is so easy that it realy aint fun playing.

    Befor wotlk CC was need in group content, you couldt pull more then 3 targets and that was max. 4 might work if you had an awsome team with a great tank. If you managed more then this you will get a pat on the back from me and ill call you uber in early wow :) I never saw that in wow the 9months i was puging.

    After wotlk cc was no longer needed, now you usaly pull half the room if not the complete room.

    TL;DR : wow endgame aint easy but the group content while you lvl is way to easy.

     

    Iam sorry, but that's the source of the major argument that WoW is easy, than you need to stop playing all THEMEPARK MMO.



    vanilla WoW contents, and all over contents that came before current x-PAC stuff, are designed and balanced around older rulesets. This is clearly visible when you play a PvPvE battleground like AV. The NPC in AV were designed around Vanilla WoW, but with a level 60 CAT character or even back in TBC character, those NPC aren't prepared for the classes new set of talent skills and other class changes made to the classes. In other words, the old contents, is not balanced around the new xpac characters. It's never been. This argument is just dull and void. When has leveling content ever been hard outside of instances anyway? The hard gameplay always came from instances. And Blizzard has shown with stats that most people are not blowing through instances like people argue on this site. The leveling is easy, yes. Just like every other solo friendly MMO, but when the game reaches endgame, the gameplay is the hardest out there.



    blizzard made the mistake of listening to the complaints of members like you who constantly complained that WoW is easy, yet the whole time you have never completed a endgame raid,,, all you were talking about was the leveling. Lol. GTFO HERE WITH THAT SHIT!!! Blizzard decided to turn up the endgame difficulty, which ran a lot of people off, because they hit that wall early on this time rather than later.



    next time somebody wants to talk all this mess about WoW being easy,,, well than SHOW US YOUR ARMORY!!!!

    You have no clue what ur talking about, and should read what i wrote again.

    Bc didt make vanilla as easy as it is today, wotlk talent tree didt either. 

    They removed the need of CC to better fit into queing, is it better for Wow? yes it is, is it better for me? no it aint.

    I dont care if wow went easy or hard way to be honest, wow earnd on it and it was the sound way to go. But that does not make the 5mans while leveling hard

  • 69Cuda69Cuda Member Posts: 251

    Part of the problem with the difficulty arguments that doesn't seem to be factored in (statistically at least) is that raiding or should I say the fundamental IDEA of raiding has changed.

    Vanilla WoW raiding = only for the most dedicated .... taking abuse , being on time and willing to play 24/7 for mats , items , enchants etc etc ad nasuem. Only the Leet need apply and if you wanted any kind of life forget raiding. You didn't cut it. raiding was your JOB. Period.

    You also had the e-peen stuff. benediction, rhok bow for hunters. Dread stead quest for locks, paladin chargers etc. (HUGE MISTAKE TAKING THESE AWAY IMO) You were a hunter and had Rhok you were looked at in Org/SW. People took notice of you. in the early days maybe 3 or 4 per server would have one. YOU WERE GODS among Cows. Then they release NAXX and everyone got their ass kicked and pvp'd with overpowered talents until BC's release.

    Burning Crusade raiding = Still primarily for the LEET only. Still needed all the enchants, mats, rep items, etc etc and KEYS to get into the Raid scene. YOU HAD TO PLAY ALOT STILL. 10 man raiding introduced (bascially spun off from the 10 man instance runs prior in vanilla (god I miss those actually lol) Karazan became the starter raid that was actually FUN and muliple choice boss content so even the casual guilds could participate. The gear was relevant virtually up to the end of the expansion as well to a point (WHICH WAS A BIG THING)

    Casuals could participate and get raid gear but were still blocked out of the "Big Boy" raiding unless you were once agin...DEDICATED to having no life and farming and playing 24/7 so every group had SOMETHING. Lots of differant raids. One boss raids that were fucking HARD with minimal trash etc. Stupid amout of trash full size raids with insane key requirements. You had it all in BC.

    Aslo gear was individualized for classes. AND IT LOOKED GOOD (imo of course)

    In short I wonder why more people think BC was teh best out of anyone...hrmm.

    This is takign to long so I wil shorten it up ...

    Wrath Raiding = introduced the ez mode raid design and the  mentality that everyone SHOULD raid for gear. More and more got to participate, gear became more and more bland and cross char homogenization took effect.

    Heroic mode became "content" somewhere in this timeframe. (BIG MISTAKE imo) BUT you had 10/25 seperate lockouts enabling (as the expac wore on) for raiders to screw around and "pug" it all the time giveing even more access to already easier content. More and more players got to raid which in turn took away the mystery and wonder about "those" that raid even more. People found out it isn't ALL THAT HARD and you get really good shit out of it.,,,,,,,,,,and it didn't need to be a full time job.

    Cata raiding.= by now raiding is the everyman sport (in one form or another) and everyman wants the puplz from raiding making pretty much the remainder of the game obsolete content.  Add in the removeal of seperate lockouts ( I still don't understand that but whatever it's not my problem aymore lol) making pugging anything a failed idea at all.  The raid content arguably is stale and via a corrider system. Go straight turn left fight, go straight again turn left fight , repeat 5 x and log off.

    Raid gear is homogenized, everyone looks the same now. Everyone "expects" to raid as content cause that is "the norm" now. They expect it to be puggable in all forms cause "that is the norm now"

    Now the newest addition to the raid scene is the LFR. Another good idea that the community will destroy on their own with loot problems and everyone thinking everyone else is a scrub except them. etc etc. LFR is raiding for dummies. Problem is for the most part human beings will always trend to the path of least resistance.

    Hard modes of the SAME thing are not new and interesting content and in the modern WoW raid entitlement scene = why raid hard content when I can get the same looking shit for no effort and act like a douche while doing it? Old raids are not relevant anymore. Old Gear is not relevant (stat wise) anymore. Raiding is for everyone. For the scrubs it will never be easy or "short" enough and for the hardcores that used to polish their e-peens raiding, no one cares about them anymore in game. 10 and 25 man's should arguably be differant raids period. 10 mans of this and 25's of that etc. Kara was never a 25 man raid. Magetheridon was never a 10 man raid. Variety is the word.

    Now you have both raid content that tastes good to most but isnt very filling and about a year to go till pandas come out. Real curious to see where they go next in the raid scene.

    I am glad I got to experience it making server firsts (cause I had no life yes) in vanilla for BWL and AQ40 (opening the gates wee fun GRINDDDDDDDD)  I was there with our first horde side server first HIGH Warlord (Black Shammy) I had Some of the best gaming memories ever palying in BC raiding karazan (aka crapazan after run 40000 but we still did it lol) Gruul's shake and bakes and mag's temper tantrums and all the rest BRM etc world bosses etc. I enjoyed wrath raiding but not like BC it was "missing "something.

    Raiding is a shadow of it's former glory. IN DESIGN. Fun is subjective. For me WoWs raiding now.....Is learn the dance, get my loot , log off. So I quit raiding which in turn...I quit paying and playing. I only played wow for the raiding. I dont care about the difficulty anymore. I just don't like raiding anymore. There is no point to it. the only winning move. Is not to play.

     

     

    PS sorry am bored so thought Id write a novel while waiting for my 600 some odd skyrim mods to download (

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Onomic

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    quotes from Blizz, posted on MMO-CHAMPION.

    Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether.



    The issue we're constantly trying to combat is the one where people feel like they're just out of options. One way this is an issue is the content is too easy, they blasted through it, have everything they could possibly want, and have nothing else to do. Ideally that's a small subset of very hardcore players. For everyone else it's a feeling of just being stuck with no possible way to progress. Very few players are willing to suit up, buff up, do all the necessary requirements to raid, jump in, and then do no better than they did last week for hours and hours, only to return next week and do the same.

    If they don't have to be like us, why do they have to have nerfs to get to our position in HM Raiding?

    Because they want to and they pay the same amount for the game? I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?



    Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.

    --------------------------

    Totally agreed with Blizz. There is no point to design the game only for the top 1% hard core players. They blow through all the content in no time anyway.

    And those who claimed WOW is too easy, and I quote "Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether."

    People here really have no credibiltiy about what is "difficult". Blizzard is doing it right to have statistics. If 90% people are wiping attempts after attempts, it is probably too difficult.

    I know people talk big here. I highly doubt all the big talkers are all in the 1% who clear all the hard mode fast.

     

     

    I know i wont last long in raid groups, but thats not where i have complaind it easy. its the level group content that is so easy that it becomes boreing.

    I have a friend that have raided in wow for 6 years now and there it looks realy challening hes guild stil wipe, but that does not help me at all when the group content befor 85 is so easy that it realy aint fun playing.

    Befor wotlk CC was need in group content, you couldt pull more then 3 targets and that was max. 4 might work if you had an awsome team with a great tank. If you managed more then this you will get a pat on the back from me and ill call you uber in early wow :) I never saw that in wow the 9months i was puging.

    After wotlk cc was no longer needed, now you usaly pull half the room if not the complete room.

    TL;DR : wow endgame aint easy but the group content while you lvl is way to easy.

     

    Iam sorry, but that's the source of the major argument that WoW is easy, than you need to stop playing all THEMEPARK MMO.



    vanilla WoW contents, and all over contents that came before current x-PAC stuff, are designed and balanced around older rulesets. This is clearly visible when you play a PvPvE battleground like AV. The NPC in AV were designed around Vanilla WoW, but with a level 60 CAT character or even back in TBC character, those NPC aren't prepared for the classes new set of talent skills and other class changes made to the classes. In other words, the old contents, is not balanced around the new xpac characters. It's never been. This argument is just dull and void. When has leveling content ever been hard outside of instances anyway? The hard gameplay always came from instances. And Blizzard has shown with stats that most people are not blowing through instances like people argue on this site. The leveling is easy, yes. Just like every other solo friendly MMO, but when the game reaches endgame, the gameplay is the hardest out there.



    blizzard made the mistake of listening to the complaints of members like you who constantly complained that WoW is easy, yet the whole time you have never completed a endgame raid,,, all you were talking about was the leveling. Lol. GTFO HERE WITH THAT SHIT!!! Blizzard decided to turn up the endgame difficulty, which ran a lot of people off, because they hit that wall early on this time rather than later.



    next time somebody wants to talk all this mess about WoW being easy,,, well than SHOW US YOUR ARMORY!!!!

     

    And there i thought you actually read my first post in this thread.

    Just some points, so that it is not a complete waste of time

    a) as you quite accurately point out, lv60 mobs are designed for lv60 players and they were not a pushover at that level

    b) leveling was actually significantly harder and longer in vanilla and TBC, just the wotlk jump in raw character damage, in some cases more than 300% plays a big role

    c) every solo friendly mmo, dunno, name five

    d) the OVERALL difficulty decrease and the invention of hardmodes came way back in wotlk, and it was right then, when naysayers predicted that the only way from that point (apart from mailing epics) is back to slightly higher difficulty, and that when that happens, the game will have problems and loose many people attracted by this lower difficulty in wotlk

    e) the cata increase was a direct response to the stagnation in wotlk, someone quoted that from a shareholder adress of actiblizz

    f) my armory is nonexistent now, i am one of the players people like you replaced at the end of tbc and over wotlk

    The disconnect between d) and e) should be quite enough to explain f)

    Its like trying to make all classes do the same damage and use the same tools with the same effectivness, while expecting the classes to be unique.

    Hard, bordering on insane.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    "In short I wonder why more people think BC was teh best out of anyone...hrmm."

    It is considered a sweet spot between vanilla and wotlk in accessibility and difficulty, the badge gear was there, but still not many people profited from it, not everybody was decked out in epics, but still many people saw kara and so on, its more a timing than design issue i think, pure luck it turned out as it did.

     

  • 69Cuda69Cuda Member Posts: 251

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    "In short I wonder why more people think BC was teh best out of anyone...hrmm."

    It is considered a sweet spot between vanilla and wotlk in accessibility and difficulty, the badge gear was there, but still not many people profited from it, not everybody was decked out in epics, but still many people saw kara and so on, its more a timing than design issue i think, pure luck it turned out as it did.

     

    Yeah agree. I think it was the diversity of choices. You always had something to do. Grind for a mount. Skettis etc. Work rep for keys. Hit heroic mode 5 mans (they were fun lol) get destroyed in Arena if you werent warrior paladan combo lol.

    Some guild ran 10's kara guild we called them I think and no one crapped on them. It was relavent content. Others never mad eit past Vasj or sunwell etc etc. But we had alot of diversity tons and tons of raid guilds at all differant points of progression.

    Yeah misty eyed lol. You didn't lack things to do in BC. No matter your playstyle or raidstyle. And most were cool with it. There were no scrubs in the raid scene back then that I remember. casuals and freak jobs alike. We were all just "raiders" and enjoyed the game.

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099

    Do added tiers of difficulty satisfy challenge-seekers?  WoW currently has normal and heroic mode on dungeons/raids.  What if they generalized this to a "level +N" system .... where you could fire up the instance with all mobs raised by N levels.  Stats on drops would also improve, but at a much, much lower curve (so that the differences would be more for vanity than for empowerment).  Then challenge seekers could see just how far they could push "N", with an essentially open-ended difficulty..

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    BTW, those said EVERY PLAYER can raid now obviously don't know what they are talking about. Here is the raid statistics, gathered 1/19.

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/01/19/ol-grumpy-and-the-dragon-soul-nerf/#continued

    And I quote

    35% of level 85 players have completed Raid Finder vs. 4% completing normal mode .. this is for the newest Dragon Soul raid.

    Too easy when only 35% have completely RF? Note that a MAJORITY has not.

    And 4% obviously is on the difficult side of things.

    I find that more and more so the opinion here that WOW is too easy .. is very biased on this forum .. and clearly NOT defendable once faced with FACTS, instead of just personal opinion. In fact, i will bet that most of those who post so many times that "wow is easy" are not in the 4% group who finished the NORMAL mode raid.

    They will yell and moan but i doubt they actually are good enough to do so.

    Heck, we have not even talked about hard mode yet, and that probably consist of less than 1% of 1% of the players.

    I would say this 4% is a an improvement to Sunwell though .. which last time i heard only 2% has completed.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    BTW, those said EVERY PLAYER can raid now obviously don't know what they are talking about. Here is the raid statistics, gathered 1/19.

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/01/19/ol-grumpy-and-the-dragon-soul-nerf/#continued

    And I quote

    35% of level 85 players have completed Raid Finder vs. 4% completing normal mode .. this is for the newest Dragon Soul raid.

    Too easy when only 35% have completely RF? Note that a MAJORITY has not.

    And 4% obviously is on the difficult side of things.

    I find that more and more so the opinion here that WOW is too easy .. is very biased on this forum .. and clearly NOT defendable once faced with FACTS, instead of just personal opinion. In fact, i will bet that most of those who post so many times that "wow is easy" are not in the 4% group who finished the NORMAL mode raid.

    They will yell and moan but i doubt they actually are good enough to do so.

    Heck, we have not even talked about hard mode yet, and that probably consist of less than 1% of 1% of the players.

    I would say this 4% is a an improvement to Sunwell though .. which last time i heard only 2% has completed.

    The 'easy' referred to pre cata. However, in Cata if you ignore the last boss in the latest instance and look at normal mode then you see the real picture (the last boss in the end game raid tier is a miniscule fraction of the game and skews these figures)  

    I agree in that cutting edge content in WOW which is Heroics including achievments requires very high skill and coordination for the later bosses.

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by Bladestrom

     

    The 'easy' referred to pre cata. However, in Cata if you ignore the last boss in the latest instance and look at normal mode then you see the real picture (the last boss in the end game raid tier is a miniscule fraction of the game and skews these figures)  

    I agree in that cutting edge content in WOW which is Heroics including achievments requires very high skill and coordination for the later bosses.

     

    Well, if you read posts in this forum, many just say "wow is easy", which obviously is debunking by this statistics.

    Let's be specific. RAIDING Dragon Soul LFR is not easy easy, only 35%, a MINORITY has completed. Raiding NORMAL mode is difficult, only 4%. And raiding H mode is very challenging.

    And sure, you can use the last boss as the measurement although i supsect detailed statistics (which i do not have) will also show that not all the bosses are push over.

    Now no one disagree that leveling, nor 5-man are difficult (except of course the QQing of early Cata H 5-man).

    Oh, you need to be specific about pre-cata too. You cannot claim Sunwell is easy back in his days.

     

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    BTW, those said EVERY PLAYER can raid now obviously don't know what they are talking about. Here is the raid statistics, gathered 1/19.

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/01/19/ol-grumpy-and-the-dragon-soul-nerf/#continued

    And I quote

    35% of level 85 players have completed Raid Finder vs. 4% completing normal mode .. this is for the newest Dragon Soul raid.

    Too easy when only 35% have completely RF? Note that a MAJORITY has not.

    And 4% obviously is on the difficult side of things.

    I find that more and more so the opinion here that WOW is too easy .. is very biased on this forum .. and clearly NOT defendable once faced with FACTS, instead of just personal opinion. In fact, i will bet that most of those who post so many times that "wow is easy" are not in the 4% group who finished the NORMAL mode raid.

    They will yell and moan but i doubt they actually are good enough to do so.

    Heck, we have not even talked about hard mode yet, and that probably consist of less than 1% of 1% of the players.

    I would say this 4% is a an improvement to Sunwell though .. which last time i heard only 2% has completed.

     

    I think sunwell was more along the terms, that 4% is trying to complete it and 0.5% has completed it, and that was the total number, not a number after a month after release, give it time, raid finder is still "the new thing".

     

     

  • FreeBooteRFreeBooteR Member Posts: 333

    The leveling part of the game became too easy because Blizzovision wants people to pay for new expansions. So people are pushed into the end game which is geared (pun intended) for the 1%. They are the architects of their own disaster.

    Archlinux ftw

  • EbonyflyEbonyfly Member Posts: 255

    I don't really have an axe to grind against Wow's approach but, for the sake of discussion, it occurs to me there must be certain amount of 'casual creep' in the method outlined in the interview.

    The more that raiding is tailored for the casual player the more casual players will be attracted to raiding. As the standard of the average raider decreases the raids therefore have to become easier so as to hit whatever progress targets Bethesda have set. And so it continues: As raids become easier an even more casual approach is encouraged and so the raids have to become easier still for progress targets to be achieved.

    At the top-end, of course, a handful of heroic raids remain very difficult but that doesn't necessarily apply to the bulk of the game or even the majority of raid content.

     

     

  • EbonyflyEbonyfly Member Posts: 255

    As for the only 35% have completed such and such a raid, how many have actually tried? A lot of people simply don't like raiding or don't have the time to spare.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by Ebonyfly

    As for the only 35% have completed such and such a raid, how many have actually tried? A lot of people simply don't like raiding or don't have the time to spare.

    That is a good point, and something I would love to see statistics on.

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