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Quick reminder that 3 realms are better than 2: New DAoC Post for Fans
Comaf
Member UncommonPosts: 1,150
"Why does the three realm break down in Dark Age of Camelot work so well? How come we have not seen it replicated as much in MMOs as it probably should have been?
There are many reasons why the three realm system works, but I think the biggest is the self-balancing. When one realm gets too far ahead, it's only a matter of time before the other two realms knock them down a notch. This allows for an ever changing and engaging RvR gamespace and reduces the feeling of hopelessness that can occur with a 2 sided conflict. With only 2 sides, if one gets too far ahead, it is tough for the underdogs to make a comeback.
As to why we haven't seen three realm RvR more, I think that is because of the difficulty that is inherent with it. It is a lot of hard work to balance a game for two sides, let alone three. Even after 10 years, we are still tweaking things here and there."
-darkageofcamelot.com 2012
Comments
I agree, but is SWtOR set up even as a realm verus realm MMO? Do we have planets we fight over and hold for example? Not thinking of open world PvP here, thats always a mistake. In DAOC we held regions against the other two sides, not sure SWtoR has that setup?
There is open world PvP objectives, but to be fair the best gear in the game is obtained through PvE. It is heavily PvE focused.
I don't think Star Wars has a natural third faction though, even considering the Hutts, it just doesn't work. So whilst three factions is better, it isn't suitable for every IP.
WAR should've been three factions though
The main reason that 3 realms does not work is that in most implementations of realms you can only group with that fraction of people who belong to the same realm for PvE.
This is because the 3 realms for pvp purposes was also applied to PvE. Even a popular game like WoW with only 2 realms, made it hard to find a group if you were a member of an unpopular realm.
Any game design with 3 realms would need to consider what affect, if any, this would have on PvE.
This is obvious and has been said many times but the devs. dont care. They care about reducing costs and it takes less time to develop two factions instead of three. And since PvP is not the focus of this game they dont care if it gets imbalanced or not.
Just look at the upcoming patch notes. How much PvE content do you have there compared to PvP content? I would say the ratio is something like 5:1.
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Just like bobfish said, the Star Wars IP just doesn't support a 3rd warring faction and because of that, it wouldn't work. So even if Bioware fixes all the underlying issues with Illium and make it worth fighting for, it will still fall into the same problems of all 2 faction MMORPGs... faction imbalance. Which is why the only large scale PvP, I can even imagine working, in the upcoming batch of MMOs are: Guild Wars 2 and Planetside 2. All because of that third faction, to mix things up and prevent these wars from remaining one-sided.
/thread
The entire Star Wars IP is built around two factions fighting each other, not three.
Quick reminder that carrots are good for you!
edit: Yes, I know. That's off topic, but it beats making my own redundant thread about it.
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perhaps thats the same sort of ratio of PvE'rs to PvP'rs in the world of MMO.....
Well, there are different solutions to that.
The simplest is just to let all realms group with eachother for PvE, but that can kinda get messy on PvP servers.
Cross server dungeon finders will do the job fine as well.
No trinity like in GW2 also make it easier to get a group, no need to find that tank or healer.
Another GW2 feature that works fine is to let the players change server when they want to, if a server is empty of your realm you change to another.
Lesser gap between mnin and max level also helps, that means more players have the right level for a dungeon to be challenging at any time.
Another possibility is to actually have larger servers with more players.
There are plenty of solutions to the whole problem anyways...
Makes more sense than having Republic only Smugglers and Empire only Bounty Hunters
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
I agree.. but it still makes no sense.
If the reason for not going three faction is because two faction is less work, then why not abandon the idea of factional conflict altogether and go with one faction? That is less work - and its not like any of these games cared about world PvP.. maybe its a token gesture?
I think this has more to do with WoW setting the trend as a financial success and then nobody daring to break the mold.
However, that all has nothing to do with SWToR.. the lore simply doesnt allow an effective 3 faction system or a 1 faction really (unless the sith are npc's or something).
I agree.. but it still makes no sense.
If the reason for not going three faction is because two faction is less work, then why not abandon the idea of factional conflict altogether and go with one faction? That is less work - and its not like any of these games cared about world PvP.. maybe its a token gesture?
I think this has more to do with WoW setting the trend as a financial success and then nobody daring to break the mold.
However, that all has nothing to do with SWToR.. the lore simply doesnt allow an effective 3 faction system or a 1 faction really (unless the sith are npc's or something).
I have read star wars books with force users not affiliated with either the Sith or Jedi order so you make a neutral force user class set then you got smugglers and bounty hunters... only issue is story wise it would be more difficult but not impossiblehttp://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Well, the IP do have some criminal syndicates like the Huts so a neutral side do exist within the IP. And smugglers could really belong to that faction instead of the republic, they are working against the local law whatever that is. Only reason Han Solo was at the republican side at all was because his friends and his love for Leia.
If think that they could have added a third neutral faction between the Siths and Jedis without breaking the lore. Besides, TOR do have combat healers and that is actually right against the lore so bending the lore to make the IP fit the game is not really a problem to anyone.
Do you people even know what neutrality means? The Hutts and other criminal syndicates refrain from participating in the wars between Republic and Empire. There are, of course, exceptions where a neutral faction may provide a service to the Empire or whatever, but in the greater scheme of things they do not wage all out galactic war like the Republic and Empire do. Furthermore, these neutral factions are significantly fragmented or simply really small and insignificant. Someone does not serve under the Hutt faction, they serve under a specific Hutt, therefore considering the Hutts a third faction would be entirely illogical.
well you got the sepretists who were not really either side although they got influenced by the empire... there were options out there for a nuetral factionhttp://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Dude you don't understand. Neutral factions either do not wage war, or they provide services to whoever promises them more. If one side is dominating the other, that stronger side can promise more to the neutral factions therefore making the conflict even more one-sided. Say, for instance, the Republic is being dominated by the Empire. The neutral factions won't go help the Republic. Quite the contrary, they will end up helping the Empire, which has far more power and influence which can benefit these neutral factions.
They do still come into conflicts with one or the other side at times, they are just smaller and work on a smaller scale.
If you made it right you could actually use that in PvP as well, but that side would be more interested in sneaking in and stealing stuff than in killing the other side. And frankly is Bioware using mostly their own lore, that why they set it so long before the movies so if there was a more powerful syndicate at that time wouldn't really affect the official lore anyways.
Yeah, I agree that they ain't perfect but neither is really the current system. Making all smugglers republic is just simplifying things a lot.
my pre episode iv history is a little rusty but didn't the sepretists start a war? Wasn't episode I's droid army a third party? Not imperial or republichttp://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
The Separatists started the blockade under orders of the Sith Lord Darth Sidious. They were formed and controlled by the Sith. What I'm saying is, when the Republic crumbled, the neutral factions didn't really care. The Neutral don't help out the underdog to bring down the strongest faction. They help the strongest faction, which would cause even more unbalances.
It wouldn't make any sense though. If the Empire is dominating, the Empire has more acquisitve power and influence to gain the favor of neutral factions therefore making the conflict even more one-sided and unbalanced.
The Separatists started the blockade under orders of the Sith Lord Darth Sidious. They were recruited by the Sith Empire as they believed the Republic to be weak and thought the alliance with the Sith would be more to their advantage.
but they were still another faction if you will and since the setting here is pre movies its not out of the realm of possibilities... also in a mostly pve game why does the third faction need to be at all out war with the other factions... all I'm saying is a third faction could of worked inside the star wars IPhttp://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
The PvP wouldn't make any damn sense. The Flashpoint/Operation system wouldn't make sense. The entire leveling experience wouldn't work. Nothing would work. If you can't see why, I'll elaborate.
The Separatists started the blockade under orders of the Sith Lord Darth Sidious. They were recruited by the Sith Empire as they believed the Republic to be weak and thought the alliance with the Sith would be more to their advantage.
but they were still another faction if you will and since the setting here is pre movies its not out of the realm of possibilities... also in a mostly pve game why does the third faction need to be at all out war with the other factions... all I'm saying is a third faction could of worked inside the star wars IPThe PvP wouldn't make any damn sense. The Flashpoint/Operation system wouldn't make sense. The entire leveling experience wouldn't work. Nothing would work. If you can't see why, I'll elaborate.
pvp doesn't work in this game to begin with but if you had a third faction pvp would have to be changed... obviously a lot of things would need to be changed... also how would leveling not work? You could pretty much keep smugglers and bounty hunters story's pretty similar to what they are now but would have to change there base of operation... you're thinking to much of how a third faction wouldn't work in the game's current state. What I'm saying is it would of been possible to design this game with a third faction from the start but obviously now it wouldn't work wellhttp://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Alright here goes: Warzones wouldn't make any sense. Why the hell would a neutral faction fight over something for themselves that the Republic and Empire are disputing? Open world RvR wouldn't make any sense. Again, why the hell would a neutral faction fight over something for themselves that the Republic and Empire are disputing as well? Flashpoints wouldn't work. Why the hell woulda neutral faction send a group of adventurers to dispute something like Hammer Station and risk starting a war against the Empire and the Republic? Leveling wouldn't work. How would a neutral faction even be allowed to have a base of operations/settlement in multiple star systems?
I don't think you understand, but the Separatists were never a neutral faction. They directly opposed the Republic and were organized by the Sith so that after conquering the Republic it would be dissolved to create the Empire itself. Never in Star Wars IP has there been a third faction involved in all out galactic warfare. It has always been about one side against the other.