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This needs to be in a sticky not in a locked thread 4 pages back.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Originally posted by drbaltazar

    i would agree with you if there was not an industry built around arguing everywhere (IT IS CALLED LOBBYING)

    Well, technically it's called viral marketing.

    But its hard to make money at it, there are so many free volunteers.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

    Running around yellin' u mad bro or SWToR suxx0rs in every thread is pointless.

     And attacking the poster for reporting MikeB's comments.... grow the hell up.  

    I wonder how many of these little idiots are kids (which is kind of forgivable), teens (which should have their parents spanking their butts for stupid stuff like this), and adults (who wouldn't DARE make these comments outside of the anonymity of the internet because they KNOW they'd get their butts kicked).

    And trolls like MT who purposely try to stir the pot should very WELL be banned from forums like this.  Course, they'll just make alt SWTORsux273828 and continue the flame wars so ignoring is often the better option.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376

    Originally posted by Ikeda

    The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

    Sorry, but you do not have the right to not be offended.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,025

    Originally posted by Ikeda

    The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

    Running around yellin' u mad bro or SWToR suxx0rs in every thread is pointless.

     And attacking the poster for reporting MikeB's comments.... grow the hell up.  

    I wonder how many of these little idiots are kids (which is kind of forgivable), teens (which should have their parents spanking their butts for stupid stuff like this), and adults (who wouldn't DARE make these comments outside of the anonymity of the internet because they KNOW they'd get their butts kicked).

    And trolls like MT who purposely try to stir the pot should very WELL be banned from forums like this.  Course, they'll just make alt SWTORsux273828 and continue the flame wars so ignoring is often the better option.

    No, it really doesn't work that way. But even so, nothing forces you to read what they post, heck, you don't even have to visit these forums, so they really aren't infringing on anyone's rights.

    Most of these folks are actually adults, most children aren't really into forums, it's mostly an older person's pastime.

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,025

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Kyleran



    See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

    I absolutely agree with that.

    Except, here on the forum, things that get argued really don't come under "Freedom of speech". And if someone DOES say something negative about the government or a political figure then they won't get thrown in jail.

    That's where the Freedom of speech comes in.

    but the reality is a person can't say anything they want to anyone they want without sometimes getting repercussions.

    You can't walk into your locla bank and tell the teller off without getting some sort of repercussions. You can tell your boss off but it's possible you might be fired. I say "it's possible" because then someone is going to post "I tell my boss off all the time and we scream at each all day". Yes, yes but that's between both parties and apparently tha'ts something they both agree to.

    I can insult a person in daily conversation and the cops aren't going to show up at my door. However, if I make a death threat or somethng really intense then it's possible that someone might take it seriously and there might be some "splainin' to do.

     

    On many forums you can't say everything  you want in any way you want. That's just life. There's a time and a place.

    So sure, go to your girlfriend's house, meet her 'nana and then tell that nana that her hairy face makes you sick. Then tell your girlfriend "it's ok, I have freedom of speech! She should just ignore me. Now how about that kiss...."



    Well, of course I agree, you can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theatre, free speech isn't totally free in every situation. (and has to be used with some discretion in certain situations naturally)

    But here on forums I don't see a real issue, but I suppose the moderators would use the argument I just presented, saying the excessive negativity (or trolling as it were) exceeds the boundries as laid out by the forum owners and therefore should be controlled.

    I'm not saying they can't control speech, or that they don't have a right to (it's their forum, right?) I'm just saying that once you go down the road of deciding what speech to moderate and what to let through its a difficult thing to manage and certainly won't make everyone happy.  

    I realize that even leaving it unmoderated won't make people happy (well, besides me perhaps) and the owners have to decide what is the proper amount of control to keep the greatest number of visitors coming back.

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593

    Originally posted by Ikeda

    The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

    Running around yellin' u mad bro or SWToR suxx0rs in every thread is pointless.

     And attacking the poster for reporting MikeB's comments.... grow the hell up.  

    I wonder how many of these little idiots are kids (which is kind of forgivable), teens (which should have their parents spanking their butts for stupid stuff like this), and adults (who wouldn't DARE make these comments outside of the anonymity of the internet because they KNOW they'd get their butts kicked).

    And trolls like MT who purposely try to stir the pot should very WELL be banned from forums like this.  Course, they'll just make alt SWTORsux273828 and continue the flame wars so ignoring is often the better option.

    Taking a quick look on the negative posts there I dont see anyone yelling about "u mad bro" or "SWToR suxxorz". Most of them rather say why they dont like the game in plain english and explain why.

    I think it is rather you guys who read these posts and then in your head are translating it to juvenile comments because you dont agree with the posts and instead of discussing it on merits you try to discredit the post in other ways. And this is often what causes the flamewars.

    I mean just look at your post. Calling people little idiots and adults who are cowards and what not. Clearly a post that is inciting bad responses from peopel criticizing the game.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Kyleran



    See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

    I absolutely agree with that.

    Except, here on the forum, things that get argued really don't come under "Freedom of speech". And if someone DOES say something negative about the government or a political figure then they won't get thrown in jail.

    That's where the Freedom of speech comes in.

    but the reality is a person can't say anything they want to anyone they want without sometimes getting repercussions.

    You can't walk into your locla bank and tell the teller off without getting some sort of repercussions. You can tell your boss off but it's possible you might be fired. I say "it's possible" because then someone is going to post "I tell my boss off all the time and we scream at each all day". Yes, yes but that's between both parties and apparently tha'ts something they both agree to.

    I can insult a person in daily conversation and the cops aren't going to show up at my door. However, if I make a death threat or somethng really intense then it's possible that someone might take it seriously and there might be some "splainin' to do.

     

    On many forums you can't say everything  you want in any way you want. That's just life. There's a time and a place.

    So sure, go to your girlfriend's house, meet her 'nana and then tell that nana that her hairy face makes you sick. Then tell your girlfriend "it's ok, I have freedom of speech! She should just ignore me. Now how about that kiss...."



    Well, of course I agree, you can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theatre, free speech isn't totally free in every situation. (and has to be used with some discretion in certain situations naturally)

    But here on forums I don't see a real issue, but I suppose the moderators would use the argument I just presented, saying the excessive negativity (or trolling as it were) exceeds the boundries as laid out by the forum owners and therefore should be controlled.

    I'm not saying they can't control speech, or that they don't have a right to (it's their forum, right?) I'm just saying that once you go down the road of deciding what speech to moderate and what to let through its a difficult thing to manage and certainly won't make everyone happy.  

    I realize that even leaving it unmoderated won't make people happy (well, besides me perhaps) and the owners have to decide what is the proper amount of control to keep the greatest number of visitors coming back.

     

    Free Speech has nothing to do with privately owned meeting places and discussion arenas.

    On a forum that I used to moderate there were lots of people that liked going overboard with topics so there was one off-topic board where we'd let a lot more slide than was allowed elsewhere. Maybe that might be a solution for here.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Kyleran



    See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

    I absolutely agree with that.

    Except, here on the forum, things that get argued really don't come under "Freedom of speech". And if someone DOES say something negative about the government or a political figure then they won't get thrown in jail.

    That's where the Freedom of speech comes in.

    but the reality is a person can't say anything they want to anyone they want without sometimes getting repercussions.

    You can't walk into your locla bank and tell the teller off without getting some sort of repercussions. You can tell your boss off but it's possible you might be fired. I say "it's possible" because then someone is going to post "I tell my boss off all the time and we scream at each all day". Yes, yes but that's between both parties and apparently tha'ts something they both agree to.

    I can insult a person in daily conversation and the cops aren't going to show up at my door. However, if I make a death threat or somethng really intense then it's possible that someone might take it seriously and there might be some "splainin' to do.

     

    On many forums you can't say everything  you want in any way you want. That's just life. There's a time and a place.

    So sure, go to your girlfriend's house, meet her 'nana and then tell that nana that her hairy face makes you sick. Then tell your girlfriend "it's ok, I have freedom of speech! She should just ignore me. Now how about that kiss...."



    Well, of course I agree, you can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theatre, free speech isn't totally free in every situation. (and has to be used with some discretion in certain situations naturally)

    But here on forums I don't see a real issue, but I suppose the moderators would use the argument I just presented, saying the excessive negativity (or trolling as it were) exceeds the boundries as laid out by the forum owners and therefore should be controlled.

    I'm not saying they can't control speech, or that they don't have a right to (it's their forum, right?) I'm just saying that once you go down the road of deciding what speech to moderate and what to let through its a difficult thing to manage and certainly won't make everyone happy.  

    I realize that even leaving it unmoderated won't make people happy (well, besides me perhaps) and the owners have to decide what is the proper amount of control to keep the greatest number of visitors coming back.

     

    I think these forums here are pretty ok when it comes to letting people post what they want.

    If you want an example of a tightly controled forum, look at The Escapist.

    You get warnings/bans for posting pictures or one-sentence responses. I think escapist went way overboard with moderation, especially when it comes to people that are posting harmless fun stuff and getting bans, contrary to people that post half a book of a well-worded racist mysogynistic piece on why gays should be put to death.

     

    Im of the firm belief that "naming and shaming" is the best way to get rid of those people. Expose and ridicule their nonsense and they will go away.

    Don't give them credibility by banning or moderating other peoples responses to that post.

     

    I'm a bit of a free-speech libertarian myself.

    image
  • LoekiiLoekii Member Posts: 430

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Taking a quick look on the negative posts there I dont see anyone yelling about "u mad bro" or "SWToR suxxorz". Most of them rather say why they dont like the game in plain english and explain why.

    I think it is rather you guys who read these posts and then in your head are translating it to juvenile comments because you dont agree with the posts and instead of discussing it on merits you try to discredit the post in other ways. And this is often what causes the flamewars.

    I mean just look at your post. Calling people little idiots and adults who are cowards and what not. Clearly a post that is inciting bad responses from peopel criticizing the game.

    Well said.

     

    Imo, it is a sign of maturity when somoene is able to post their opinion, comment on someone eles's opinion and have a general discussion without namecalling, belittling, or villifing the opposing/disenting opinions.

     

    image

  • MetentsoMetentso Member UncommonPosts: 1,437

    Originally posted by Distopia

     I saw this in a locked thread when I logged in, I thought it was an odd area to place such a detailed explanation of their do's and don'ts. This should be stickied in any forum as a game launches, IMO.

    I am not sure if the TOS has changed or not, but I do not recall it including a statement about thoughtful, well written and argued points, as it does in what I highlighted below. Many people may not view that as trolling, yet do it unaware that it's against the rules and is considered trolling by the staff.

    I really don't give a hoot what people post, I'm just giving a heads up and pointing out, this needs to be placed in an area for all to see.

    I'm not trying to call anyone out, or start any sort of back and forth. I just don't think that many here are aware of these rules... If they are.. well...

    Originally posted by MikeB...

    ""Positive" posting no-nos:

    Going to other game forums and posting constantly about how your game of choice is better than the game in the game board you're posting in for X Y and Z reasons.

    Negative posting no-nos:

    -Snip_

    Posting negative or positive commentary about a specific game or topic on a consistent and frequent basis. For example, someone who has many legitimate beefs or likings about a particular game and articules them well, but is essentially fighting the same battle on a day-to-day basis. At a certain point we consider this trolling as well and it is not allowed. If you really dislike or like a game, say your piece and move on. Or better yet, write a user feature on it. ;)

    We want you to be able to voice your negative or positive opinion on a game, but it doesn't need to be in every topic of the game's forum, especially if it is disruptive to the discussion. "New patch added 10 zones!" "Who cares? It's still a themepark game." or "This is the bestest game ever!" This sort of thing is really unnecessary. "

    -

    This is what it says in the ROC on Trolling, it's pretty vague compared to what I quoted,.


    • Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.

      For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated



    Changed for fair.

  • MikeBMikeB Community ManagerAdministrator RarePosts: 6,540

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    That was what I thought too when I first read this. Great write up.

    I hope they'll make that general policy.

    Serial hate for specific games = contributing nothing and only works to annoy people and tempt them to retaliate, it derails discussions and makes the community on this site look bad.

     

     

    This has been our general policy for a long time. The problem is we can't be everywhere at once and while it sounds lame it really helps if you guys report this sort of thing. Reporting is just a way of flagging something for us to look at.

    Of course, the TOR boards are at critical mass at the moment and we're doing our best to keep up, but we expect things to be a bit hairier than usual for a little while before they simmer down.

    As for stickying this topic, we'll consider it, but we don't want to overflow every board with too many stickies. Some are already too sticky heavy as it is!

    EDIT: Moving to site suggestions!

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • MikeBMikeB Community ManagerAdministrator RarePosts: 6,540

    Originally posted by tixylix

    You cannot ban everyone for posting negative opinions on the game.

     

    This is a forum! Not a SWTOR fanclub.

    Absolutely. And we aren't trying to, for this, or any other game. At the same time, we want you guys to have forums that are actually conducive to discussion and not, well, a wild west! We understand gamers are super passionate about these sorts of topics, but it is quite possible to have an actual discussion without resorting to poking the beehive or attacking each other, and that's really all we ask.

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • GibboniciGibbonici Member UncommonPosts: 472

    Originally posted by Huntedmbr

    Rules. The site here is modded by hippocrates...

    I very much doubt that.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by Yamota

     

    Taking a quick look on the negative posts there I dont see anyone yelling about "u mad bro" or "SWToR suxxorz". Most of them rather say why they dont like the game in plain english and explain why.

    I think it is rather you guys who read these posts and then in your head are translating it to juvenile comments because you dont agree with the posts and instead of discussing it on merits you try to discredit the post in other ways. And this is often what causes the flamewars.

    I mean just look at your post. Calling people little idiots and adults who are cowards and what not. Clearly a post that is inciting bad responses from peopel criticizing the game.

    While I appreciate that Ikeda came to my defense about the attacks early on. He did lose me there.

    You can't pin the flamewars on just one side though, that's totally unfair. I don't understand why someone would want to "take sides" on this issue if they actually give a damn about actual discussion. Both sides say things that degrade the discussion to juvenile levels. The act of trying to call each other out has slightly done so to this thread.

    The problem as I see it is two fold, you have people on both sides who post simply to get a rise out of people, and you have people on both sides arguing the same points over and over again, all in a build up for their told you so moment.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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