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Is it “fair” to compare new MMO’s to old and established ones?

Found this article http://www.mmocrunch.com/2011/12/05/is-it-fair-to-compare-new-mmos-to-old-and-established-ones/

I have been trying to find a good example to give people who always say "well you can't compare this game to others because they have been out for years"

the example given in this article about the car is a great one. However you feel about it the article makes some good points for both sides.

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Comments

  • pmaurapmaura Member UncommonPosts: 530

    if you dont know history your condemned to repeat, so its always valid to compare and contrast anything not just games.

  • DexterMMODexterMMO Member Posts: 484
    Sure, if you reasonably compare like Swtor launch vs wow launch or mechanics vs mechanics. Ignorant people like to compare content though.

    Everything I say is my opinion or personal preference. You may or may not find it useful to your cause but regardless I am entitled to it.

  • sanosukexsanosukex Member Posts: 1,836

    Originally posted by DexterMMO

    Sure, if you reasonably compare like Swtor launch vs wow launch or mechanics vs mechanics. Ignorant people like to compare content though.

    I agree I would not expect a new MMO to have even close to the content of a game thats been out for many years.. but many get very angry when you compare basic features that are in pretty much all themepark MMOs that are lacking from new MMOs

  • Cthulhu23Cthulhu23 Member Posts: 994

    I think it's reasonable to make comparisons to what is currently out there because we have to remember that the target audience of a game is the audience that is already out there playing other games.  So you have to give a player a reason to leave an established game to play yours.  Like Dexter said, reasonable people can't expect a new game to have the kind of content that an established game will have.  But it's not unreasonable to compare the features of each game.

  • Drekker17Drekker17 Member Posts: 296

    Yes, as long as you aren't comparing the amount of content, but the quality of content. Also, it is ok to judge mechanics and graphics, these things should be imrpoving. While it's true older games content does improve in quality as well as quantity the quality is usually still very old because it's harder to change things for an old game than create something because of the way people will react to it, and just regular compatibility issues.

     

    "Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
    "Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security." -Norman Vincent Peale

  • CavodCavod Member Posts: 295

    Originally posted by DexterMMO

    Sure, if you reasonably compare like Swtor launch vs wow launch or mechanics vs mechanics. Ignorant people like to compare content though.

    I was going to say no but I suppose this response is better.

     

    It down right doesn't make sense to compare the state of a game just launched to the state of a game many years and possible expansions into it's life.  It's like comparing Albert Einstein when he was a child to you right now.   In that comparison you or I would win hands down yet we all know Einstein > us.

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  • sanosukexsanosukex Member Posts: 1,836

    Originally posted by Cavod

    Originally posted by DexterMMO

    Sure, if you reasonably compare like Swtor launch vs wow launch or mechanics vs mechanics. Ignorant people like to compare content though.

    I was going to say no but I suppose this response is better.

     

    It down right doesn't make sense to compare the state of a game just launched to the state of a game many years and possible expansions into it's life.  It's like comparing Albert Einstein when he was a child to you right now.   In that comparison you or I would win hands down yet we all know Einstein > us.

    your example is more like comparing "content" this article is about features like the example they give about the car and basic stuff like LFG tool, Custimzable UI, auction house, ect..

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  • Sandman24Sandman24 Member Posts: 47

    I'm no expert on this topic, however it seems to me that a new game has to start with basics and make sure they work before adding extras.  I have beta tested and played most MMOs out there currrently and some that are long gone.  They all seem to start very basic and build up.  Perhaps if they did add all the bells and whistles from the beginning, the game would take too long to fix from common mistakes?

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren Member Posts: 295

    Yeah it really comes to what your comparing between the games with a knowledge that a game 10 years older is not going to hold up against a more rescent game in some areas. Like for me comparing the shining force series or phantasy star series to a newer game the looks, as well as interface will not wstand up against the newer for the most part, but the story as well aas characters will stand or beat the newer game in many respects. I also find the longer a game is estabished the more reaccuring machnnics, strats, and ideas are used. Like in wow many of the instances can feel like you have done them thousands of times even the first time in, but a new game with a simular or even exact copy fo the same machinics or such can feel different and new still many times as well. It all comes to context for hwo you compare things, no matter what it is you are comparing.

  • CavodCavod Member Posts: 295

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Originally posted by Cavod


    Originally posted by DexterMMO

    Sure, if you reasonably compare like Swtor launch vs wow launch or mechanics vs mechanics. Ignorant people like to compare content though.

    I was going to say no but I suppose this response is better.

     

    It down right doesn't make sense to compare the state of a game just launched to the state of a game many years and possible expansions into it's life.  It's like comparing Albert Einstein when he was a child to you right now.   In that comparison you or I would win hands down yet we all know Einstein > us.

    your example is more like comparing "content" this article is about features like the example they give about the car and basic stuff like LFG tool, Custimzable UI, auction house, ect..

    I didn't look at the article until after I posted, the fact remains though.

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207

    although in terms of PVP

    nothing since DAOC / EVE / planetside / L2 has improved upon the PVP formula

    in fact most of them have regressed

  • kiernkiern Member UncommonPosts: 428

    As others have said, it is perfectly fine to compare to older games, providing that you are comparing apples to apples, and are not taking the amount of content into consideration. There are also certain things that are acceptable from being excluded, or unpolished at release, that can be fleshed out later. WoW was missing a lot of things at launch, but they added and tweaked after launch.

    The article mentioned the LFG tool. WoW didn't have one at launch. They went through many different ones until they finally created the dungeon finder. The thing is, some people hate the dungeon finder. Some have complained that it ruined the game. I didn't think it was all that bad, but maybe it was. That said, the LFG tool for SWTOR is not that bad. At first glance it seems like just a /whois function, but there is a comment field where you can state what you are looking for a group for. You can specify a dungeon, mission, or even that you just want to duo for general questing. I think it is a decent start, and I have no problem with it being the tool at release.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren Member Posts: 295

    The lfg tool from bc was my favoite version of a lfg toll for all versions of a lfg system you find in games during all the times. The normal social way of gaining a group is good, but having a lsting of people with notes of what they are wanting to do was vary helpful, but yet not something that took away from the social feel of it. To me it  was the cross server function, not the lfg system that people hate. One other thing that gets in the way of comparing games past or present/future is fanboi-ism/haters that will bash games or machanics for games they hate even if good or used in a game they like reverse is true as well. A comparison should be as biased as possible, with little of this attidute  used or permitted in the convo.

  • ZebladeZeblade Member UncommonPosts: 931

    I think what were looking for is..

    "the more things change the more they stay the same" By the man himself Snake Plissken.. hahae 

    But we do it with everything.. so have to

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,771

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Found this article http://www.mmocrunch.com/2011/12/05/is-it-fair-to-compare-new-mmos-to-old-and-established-ones/

    I have been trying to find a good example to give people who always say "well you can't compare this game to others because they have been out for years"

    the example given in this article about the car is a great one. However you feel about it the article makes some good points for both sides.

    A very simple argument. I really don't care about how new or old a MMO (or for that matter, a game is), i want value for my money.

    So I only judge games by whether i think it will be fun.

    As a consumer, i don't need to be 'fair". I just need to pay for what I think is the best entertainment product.

     

  • EthianEthian Member Posts: 1,216

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Found this article http://www.mmocrunch.com/2011/12/05/is-it-fair-to-compare-new-mmos-to-old-and-established-ones/

    I have been trying to find a good example to give people who always say "well you can't compare this game to others because they have been out for years"

    the example given in this article about the car is a great one. However you feel about it the article makes some good points for both sides.

    roger

    "I play Tera for the gameplay"

  • Bob_BlawblawBob_Blawblaw Member Posts: 1,278

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by sanosukex

     

    A very simple argument. I really don't care about how new or old a MMO (or for that matter, a game is), i want value for my money.

    So I only judge games by whether i think it will be fun.

    As a consumer, i don't need to be 'fair". I just need to pay for what I think is the best entertainment product.

     

    THIS! 

    If a game gets long in the tooth and can't compete with a new game... tough luck.  (hint - drop your price)

    If a game is launched not quite up to snuff and can't compete against an established title... tough luck.  (hint - finish developing your flipping game)

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    I think it is absolutely fair to compare a new MMORPG to old and established ones, even regarding content.  In fact, I think if a developer tries to justify their game's shortcomings because their game is new, then they are walking down a dangerous path of willful ignornance.

    The MMORPG market is competitive, and consumers want to play whatever brings them the most enjoyment.  They could care less that an established developer A had 10 years to build their game while you only had 4.  It doesn't make a difference to them.  They will just play the game that is more fun.

    But you might say, "it's not possible for a new game to have as much content as one that has been out for 10 years!"  And you would basically be right.

    So you may ask...how can a new game compete with an established game that has had years to build up content?  And I would say that you DO NOT try to compete with an older game on the basis of content.

    Instead, you bring an entirely new experience, or change fundamental aspects of the older game that people feel are flawed.  The point is that you CANNOT compete with an older game on basis of quantity of content...they will almost always win.  You have to compete on other things...graphics, game system, art, etc.

    I think this is by and large why WoW is so dominant.  WoW clones basically just copy all the systems from WoW (the things they SHOULD be changing) and just create new content for it.  But they will NEVER outdo WoW in terms of content, and consumers could care less that you had less time.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • helthroshelthros Member UncommonPosts: 1,449

    You can't compare cars and mmo's because mmo's are ongoing 'under construction'. There's an understanding that every few months, new additions can and will be added. The same can't be said for a car, that's why all the features need to be available upfront. /thread

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    When I compare old to new I refer to the old when its first launched,in it's vanilla state.

    To compare ToR or Rift,MMOs that are new,to a game as a whole like Everquest which has what? 13 expansions under its belt? Is kinda silly
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Not sure people remember a seven year old (or older) launch well enough to make a valid comparison.  There's a lot of mythology surrounding the launch of the Behemoth, for example, because of all the people that were not there but claim they were.

    Fair?  Doesn't matter.  Such a comparison inevitable.  Ya learn to give new games a little more leeway, because they're new, or no new game will ever be enough for you.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • udorusudorus Member Posts: 79

    No as expectation is now so much higher and your judging most new mmo's against wow and other older games which are long standing and now very stable. Would you play an mmo now without an auction house? i guess a lot of you thought no then but how many remember wow launched with no ah and only had it installed months if not a year after launch.

  • tixylixtixylix Member UncommonPosts: 1,288

    If a new MMO isn't as good as an old one then why play the new one?

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