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Skyrim Implementation stats+birthsigns in Patch (Pole)

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  • tazarconantazarconan Member Posts: 1,013

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan

    For the last time. The perk system is working and is welcomed in skyrim. NO FRIEKING REASON AT ALL TO REMOVE THE ATTRIBUTES.  Does this compute?

    For the last time... The Attribute system was a whole lot of numbers that over complicated the leveling process without a single benefit over the new system. The outcome is the same whether you have the Attributes or not. Maybe you like playing games with speadsheet math but the vast majority of gamers do not. They just want to have fun because that is what games are for... just so you know. Does that compute!?!

     

    Edit: Oh, and the Perk System is a major part of the new leveling system. It makes up for not being able to affect skills with attribute points by letting you affect skills directly. You can't discuss one without the other as they work hand in hand. To bring back Attributes would mean they would have to trash the new Perk System to keep the game balanced. Otherwise you'd have level 10 characters that would be god like and unstoppable. The Attribute system has been around since D&D table top RPGs and is a dinosaur at this point. It's about time someone innovated and trashed it for a better system.

     

    Bren

    So if every time u lvl, you choose 3 out of 8 attributes overcomplicate things? If the brain of adult gamers is getting confused by that maybe we should all start to worry . Are we talking about George Bush junior here?

    But dont worry i understand your way of thinking after what u said about the attribute system and d&d table being replaced  by  talent trees.

    Ah and by the way Dear Bren speaking about minorities...

    8 ppl seems to agree with u in this post. From the poll votes ,9 ppl want the old stats +birthsigns back, 4 ppl want the stats back, and 3 the old birthsigns.

    I ll try to simplify this for you since u dont like overcomplicated things.

    13 ppl want stats back and another 11the old birthsigns. 9 ppl including u want it to remain as it is. Seems like YOU belong to the MINORITY here.

    No, because I and many others didn't vote in your biased one sided poll because you made no option for anyone who differed from your point of view. Your poll is totally bogus as it only represents one side of the argument with no option given for those who oppose you. For every poster who posted their like for new system there could be 10-100 that would have voted without posting. Your little poll is totally invalid.

     

    Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me. image

     

    Bren

     

    PS: This is how you make an unbiased poll by the way.

    Seems we have a draw  xD

    Ah lol . Seriously now the reason i didnt putted a 4th option in the poll caus ei sincerely believed that there wouldnt be any ppl around preferring that in skyrim shouldnt appear the stats additionally to the new perk system. And thats all the way honestly. I dont know if now it is possible to edit the poll and add an additional slot though somehow.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821

    Originally posted by tazarconan

    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan


    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan

    For the last time. The perk system is working and is welcomed in skyrim. NO FRIEKING REASON AT ALL TO REMOVE THE ATTRIBUTES.  Does this compute?

    For the last time... The Attribute system was a whole lot of numbers that over complicated the leveling process without a single benefit over the new system. The outcome is the same whether you have the Attributes or not. Maybe you like playing games with speadsheet math but the vast majority of gamers do not. They just want to have fun because that is what games are for... just so you know. Does that compute!?!

     

    Edit: Oh, and the Perk System is a major part of the new leveling system. It makes up for not being able to affect skills with attribute points by letting you affect skills directly. You can't discuss one without the other as they work hand in hand. To bring back Attributes would mean they would have to trash the new Perk System to keep the game balanced. Otherwise you'd have level 10 characters that would be god like and unstoppable. The Attribute system has been around since D&D table top RPGs and is a dinosaur at this point. It's about time someone innovated and trashed it for a better system.

     

    Bren

    So if every time u lvl, you choose 3 out of 8 attributes overcomplicate things? If the brain of adult gamers is getting confused by that maybe we should all start to worry . Are we talking about George Bush junior here?

    But dont worry i understand your way of thinking after what u said about the attribute system and d&d table being replaced  by  talent trees.

    Ah and by the way Dear Bren speaking about minorities...

    8 ppl seems to agree with u in this post. From the poll votes ,9 ppl want the old stats +birthsigns back, 4 ppl want the stats back, and 3 the old birthsigns.

    I ll try to simplify this for you since u dont like overcomplicated things.

    13 ppl want stats back and another 11the old birthsigns. 9 ppl including u want it to remain as it is. Seems like YOU belong to the MINORITY here.

    No, because I and many others didn't vote in your biased one sided poll because you made no option for anyone who differed from your point of view. Your poll is totally bogus as it only represents one side of the argument with no option given for those who oppose you. For every poster who posted their like for new system there could be 10-100 that would have voted without posting. Your little poll is totally invalid.

     

    Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me. image

     

    Bren

     

    PS: This is how you make an unbiased poll by the way.

    Seems we have a draw  xD

    Ah lol . Seriously now the reason i didnt putted a 4th option in the poll caus ei sincerely believed that there wouldnt be any ppl around preferring that in skyrim shouldnt appear the stats additionally to the new perk system. And thats all the way honestly. I dont know if now it is possible to edit the poll and add an additional slot though somehow.

    No, you can't edit a poll unfortunately once it's posted. It is appreciated however that you acknowledge differing points of view on the subject now. You don't have to agree with them to acknowledge they exist.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • tazarconantazarconan Member Posts: 1,013

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan

     

    Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me. image

    Bren

    Well thats easy. 3 out of 8 gives more options and doubts from 1 out of 3. And lets be honest here life stam and mana are not even attributes. they are the values that used to be changing pre skyrim according to the 8 attributes. Bethesda did those cause they erased the 8 attributes.

    But its not the message im trying to pass here in the whole thread. 

    Yeah u r right its more complex 180 perks +3 attributes than just 8 attributes. But my proposal was 180 perks+the 8 attributes and keep stamina life mana as indipendent values as it used to be pre skyrim which is even better and more addictive.

    And u r talkign about 180 perks. My friend its not 180. Example. I mplaying with my barbarian toon. He he will get some perks from light armour tree,all perks from 2 handed tree,very few perks from sneak tree caus ehe's not assasin or rogue,few perks from block tree maybe very few from heavy armour caus ei have the tendency to use iron or steel shields and that nice iron helmet with the horns that looks awesome. And that's it. Not a single perk from all magic trees, not a single perk from archery. U know how many perks these are? AT most 1/3 which means replayabilityzero cause the perks im forced to take as barbarian are exactly the same each time i try a new game as a barbarian. As for the shitty birthsigns as they made it? I take every time thief sign so i wont lvl up every5 minutes. That s the deep and complex character system of skyrim they made for cheerfull 10 y old psp kids.

    Want to know with these 8 attributes and the old birthsign system after starting morrorwind and oblivion every time over 40-50 times what was the same on my barbarian toons? NOTHING!  Yes u read correct ! NOTHING!

    I made over 50 barbarian style characters every time with different stats skills or signs. u know the funny thing? They also played diferently. One was faster ,others had tremendous endurance and life pools, others were too strong but low life, others were strong and fast,others were agile adn heavy life pool, agile and strong, agile and fast and so on so on and with different signs every time.

    Thats complex. Thats freedom in character creation. No prison bars! Uwant to make your character as u imagine him? there u go! 

    I never liked predetermined paths from the devs! I never liked others to deside me what and how i will play it. And i encourage you my friend to do so as well. freedom is better. 

  • DeaconXDeaconX Member UncommonPosts: 3,062

    Originally posted by Teala

    How about no levels, no skill points, no stats at all(atribute poitns that you the player can see) and have the option to choose a birthsign if you like?  I'd rather not see any numbers at all.  

    A lot of players don't want to / can't let go of visual progression.

      It's all preference... personally I've always wanted to try a game that hides all the numbers and just lets you develop with everything calculated in the background.

     

    Before anyone decides to reply with this, I'll just disarm it right here:

    "Yeah, it's called real life!"

    Well no, because in real life there are REAL consequences for actions :) give me an awesome game world to develop this way... could be really liberating from the min/maxing we've become so accustomed to.

    image

    Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

    BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  • tazarconantazarconan Member Posts: 1,013

    Originally posted by DeaconX

    Originally posted by Teala

    How about no levels, no skill points, no stats at all(atribute poitns that you the player can see) and have the option to choose a birthsign if you like?  I'd rather not see any numbers at all.  

    A lot of players don't want to / can't let go of visual progression.

      It's all preference... personally I've always wanted to try a game that hides all the numbers and just lets you develop with everything calculated in the background.

     

    Before anyone decides to reply with this, I'll just disarm it right here:

    "Yeah, it's called real life!"

    Well no, because in real life there are REAL consequences for actions :) give me an awesome game world to develop this way... could be really liberating from the min/maxing we've become so accustomed to.

    I played such an rpg many many years ago and i cant remmber the name. It  s not bad as a concept .I like the idea of guessing how and if things on your toon will work without seeing numbers all around.

  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034

    Thank you Bren for the real poll, the OP poll is a bit one sided to say the least. Next time Op at least let an option for the people that disagree with you, its the minimum you can do.

  • 8BitAvatar8BitAvatar Member Posts: 196

    Originally posted by tazarconan

    Originally posted by DeaconX


    Originally posted by Teala

    How about no levels, no skill points, no stats at all(atribute poitns that you the player can see) and have the option to choose a birthsign if you like?  I'd rather not see any numbers at all.  

    A lot of players don't want to / can't let go of visual progression.

      It's all preference... personally I've always wanted to try a game that hides all the numbers and just lets you develop with everything calculated in the background.

     

    Before anyone decides to reply with this, I'll just disarm it right here:

    "Yeah, it's called real life!"

    Well no, because in real life there are REAL consequences for actions :) give me an awesome game world to develop this way... could be really liberating from the min/maxing we've become so accustomed to.

    I played such an rpg many many years ago and i cant remmber the name. It  s not bad as a concept .I like the idea of guessing how and if things on your toon will work without seeing numbers all around.

    You're all over the place man.

    You create a thread specifically to complain that Skyrim is less complex than Morrowind/Oblivion, and then in the same thread, you admit you like the idea of a game that doesn't allow you to see the numbers.

    I'm thoroughly confused now. Anyone else?

     

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821

    Originally posted by Requiamer

    Thank you Bren for the real poll, the OP poll is a bit one sided to say the least. Next time Op at least let an option for the people that disagree with you, its the minimum you can do.

    You are welcome. image

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821

    Originally posted by tazarconan

    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan


    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan

     

    Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me. image

    Bren

    Well thats easy. 3 out of 8 gives more options and doubts from 1 out of 3. And lets be honest here life stam and mana are not even attributes. they are the values that used to be changing pre skyrim according to the 8 attributes. Bethesda did those cause they erased the 8 attributes.

    But its not the message im trying to pass here in the whole thread. 

    Yeah u r right its more complex 180 perks +3 attributes than just 8 attributes. But my proposal was 180 perks+the 8 attributes and keep stamina life mana as indipendent values as it used to be pre skyrim which is even better and more addictive.

    And u r talkign about 180 perks. My friend its not 180. Example. I mplaying with my barbarian toon. He he will get some perks from light armour tree,all perks from 2 handed tree,very few perks from sneak tree caus ehe's not assasin or rogue,few perks from block tree maybe very few from heavy armour caus ei have the tendency to use iron or steel shields and that nice iron helmet with the horns that looks awesome. And that's it. Not a single perk from all magic trees, not a single perk from archery. U know how many perks these are? AT most 1/3 which means replayabilityzero cause the perks im forced to take as barbarian are exactly the same each time i try a new game as a barbarian. As for the shitty birthsigns as they made it? I take every time thief sign so i wont lvl up every5 minutes. That s the deep and complex character system of skyrim they made for cheerfull 10 y old psp kids.

    Want to know with these 8 attributes and the old birthsign system after starting morrorwind and oblivion every time over 40-50 times what was the same on my barbarian toons? NOTHING!  Yes u read correct ! NOTHING!

    I made over 50 barbarian style characters every time with different stats skills or signs. u know the funny thing? They also played diferently. One was faster ,others had tremendous endurance and life pools, others were too strong but low life, others were strong and fast,others were agile adn heavy life pool, agile and strong, agile and fast and so on so on and with different signs every time.

    Thats complex. Thats freedom in character creation. No prison bars! Uwant to make your character as u imagine him? there u go! 

    I never liked predetermined paths from the devs! I never liked others to deside me what and how i will play it. And i encourage you my friend to do so as well. freedom is better. 

    lol... You pidgeon holed yourself into a class and a birthsign before you even started playing the game and then claim you don't like predetermined paths set by the devs? In the new system there is absolutely nothing predetermined for you. You decide by how you play which gives a heck of a lot more freedom over the old class/attribute system. Just because YOU choose to ignore all but 4-5 out of the 18 skills to advance doesn't make them magically not there or any less of an option to you. The new system allows for just as many if not more diverse builds as the old system through your choices in what stats you increase and what perks you choose. The main difference now is it's totally up to you by how you play instead of setting a predetermined path at character creation.

     

    Also as I've said before the Perk system is an intrical part of the new leveling system and can't be singled out from the stat increases. If all they gave you as an option was the stat increases I would agree with you 100% but they didn't. The Perk system was designed for the sole purpose of giving you more options when increasing skills then the old auto-perk attribute system did. If you brought back attributes and kept the current perk system like you suggest the game would be seriously unbalanced and everyone would be god-like in power by level 10. It just wouldn't work.

     

    As for the Birthsigns... The attribute increases that those gave you were totally nullified by level 10. Sure it helped you get started but a 10 point stat bonus is only like 3 level ups. Now I can get bonuses from the standing stones that last throughout the entire life of my character and I can change them whenever *I* choose to. This ups the freedom aspect of the game by about 1000% over the old 'Pidgeon holed into a birthsign at character creation that was totally nullified by level 10' system.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • tazarconantazarconan Member Posts: 1,013

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan


    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by tazarconan

     

    Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me. image

    Bren

    Well thats easy. 3 out of 8 gives more options and doubts from 1 out of 3. And lets be honest here life stam and mana are not even attributes. they are the values that used to be changing pre skyrim according to the 8 attributes. Bethesda did those cause they erased the 8 attributes.

    But its not the message im trying to pass here in the whole thread. 

    Yeah u r right its more complex 180 perks +3 attributes than just 8 attributes. But my proposal was 180 perks+the 8 attributes and keep stamina life mana as indipendent values as it used to be pre skyrim which is even better and more addictive.

    And u r talkign about 180 perks. My friend its not 180. Example. I mplaying with my barbarian toon. He he will get some perks from light armour tree,all perks from 2 handed tree,very few perks from sneak tree caus ehe's not assasin or rogue,few perks from block tree maybe very few from heavy armour caus ei have the tendency to use iron or steel shields and that nice iron helmet with the horns that looks awesome. And that's it. Not a single perk from all magic trees, not a single perk from archery. U know how many perks these are? AT most 1/3 which means replayabilityzero cause the perks im forced to take as barbarian are exactly the same each time i try a new game as a barbarian. As for the shitty birthsigns as they made it? I take every time thief sign so i wont lvl up every5 minutes. That s the deep and complex character system of skyrim they made for cheerfull 10 y old psp kids.

    Want to know with these 8 attributes and the old birthsign system after starting morrorwind and oblivion every time over 40-50 times what was the same on my barbarian toons? NOTHING!  Yes u read correct ! NOTHING!

    I made over 50 barbarian style characters every time with different stats skills or signs. u know the funny thing? They also played diferently. One was faster ,others had tremendous endurance and life pools, others were too strong but low life, others were strong and fast,others were agile adn heavy life pool, agile and strong, agile and fast and so on so on and with different signs every time.

    Thats complex. Thats freedom in character creation. No prison bars! Uwant to make your character as u imagine him? there u go! 

    I never liked predetermined paths from the devs! I never liked others to deside me what and how i will play it. And i encourage you my friend to do so as well. freedom is better. 

    lol... You pidgeon holed yourself into a class and a birthsign before you even started playing the game and then claim you don't like predetermined paths set by the devs? In the new system there is absolutely nothing predetermined for you.

     

     If you brought back attributes and kept the current perk system like you suggest the game would be seriously unbalanced and everyone would be god-like in power by level 10. It just wouldn't work.

     

    As for the Birthsigns... The attribute increases that those gave you were totally nullified by level 10. Sure it helped you get started but a 10 point stat bonus is only like 3 level ups. Now I can get bonuses from the standing stones that last throughout the entire life of my character and I can change them whenever *I* choose to. This ups the freedom aspect of the game by about 1000% over the old 'Pidgeon holed into a birthsign at character creation that was totally nullified by level 10' system.

     

    Bren

    Well only classes i always played in tes series were Barbarian versions and wood elf ranger style versions.Thats the classes i love mostly its not the pidgeon case u describe. As a barbarian the diference was quite clear way way more potential build combos pre-skyrim than that is now. The examples i gave were very clear and easy to understand. Same goes for ranger with the diference that in skyrim i can have more trees of perks to use very few few from illusion, whole archery tree,some from alchemy, and few from restoration.

    Cmon if they bring back attributes and keep the perks system u know damn well 2 things. All mosters will have stats as well not only the player, and they can adjust perks strength percentages very easilly for balance purposes.Dont give me crap here.

    As for the brithsigns.. who cares to take meaninglless birthsigns that only thing they do is make me lvl every 5 minutes makign leveling proceedure some farming business and it looses the sense of accomplishment. Right now i started game from start and didnt choosed any boirthsign at all and additionally i got a slower leveling mod and enjoying the game much better.

    At leats back there in Morrorwind or Oblivion birthsigns added to your whole build package apart from attributes with some abilities. No comparison at all the old birthsigns with skyrim's.In Skyrim signs are just useless unless ofc u prefer fast leveling but for that some mod could that as well in the near future.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821

    Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. As for mods changing core gameplay mechanics... not gonna happen. I guess you can always go back and play Daggerfall, Morrowind or Oblivion if you're hung up on it that much. With the popularity of Skyrim and the vast majority of players enjoying the new leveling system it will be very unlikely you'll see Attributes or Birthsigns ever return in any new games in the series either. I guess it sucks to be you... LOL

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • tazarconantazarconan Member Posts: 1,013

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. As for mods changing core gameplay mechanics... not gonna happen. I guess you can always go back and play Daggerfall, Morrowind or Oblivion if you're hung up on it that much. With the popularity of Skyrim and the vast majority of players enjoying the new leveling system it will be very unlikely you'll see Attributes or Birthsigns ever return in any new games in the series either. I guess it sucks to be you... LOL

     

    Bren

    Jesus once said the cripple shall walk and blind will see. Even Him was wrong.

  • ClassicstarClassicstar Member UncommonPosts: 2,697

    Originally posted by DeaconX

    Originally posted by Teala

    How about no levels, no skill points, no stats at all(atribute poitns that you the player can see) and have the option to choose a birthsign if you like?  I'd rather not see any numbers at all.  

    A lot of players don't want to / can't let go of visual progression.

      It's all preference... personally I've always wanted to try a game that hides all the numbers and just lets you develop with everything calculated in the background.

     

    Before anyone decides to reply with this, I'll just disarm it right here:

    "Yeah, it's called real life!"

    Well no, because in real life there are REAL consequences for actions :) give me an awesome game world to develop this way... could be really liberating from the min/maxing we've become so accustomed to.

    Maybe a game where you start as a weak skinny boy/girl and slowly grow up, and through progress you become stronger with more muscles and through your action how you jump run climb or handle a weapon how fast you kill a mob.

    All of this without numbers or lvls, why not i would play such a game.

    Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!

    MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
    CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
    GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 10 64bit

  • Cthulhu23Cthulhu23 Member Posts: 994

    Originally posted by Teala

    How about no levels, no skill points, no stats at all(atribute poitns that you the player can see) and have the option to choose a birthsign if you like?  I'd rather not see any numbers at all.  

    Also, how about no combat either?  And no quests?  Heck, no interaction in any way with npcs or mobs?  Just a game of  your character not doing anything but walking around, hugging trees, and not progressing in any meaningful way.  What fun that would be.  Oh, and every few hours, your character will need to go to the bathroom or he'll get a tummy ache from all the fruit he's been eating while wandering around.   

    I think some of us take the "immersion" thing just a bit too far.  

     

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821

    Originally posted by forest-nl

    Originally posted by DeaconX


    Originally posted by Teala

    How about no levels, no skill points, no stats at all(atribute poitns that you the player can see) and have the option to choose a birthsign if you like?  I'd rather not see any numbers at all.  

    A lot of players don't want to / can't let go of visual progression.

      It's all preference... personally I've always wanted to try a game that hides all the numbers and just lets you develop with everything calculated in the background.

     

    Before anyone decides to reply with this, I'll just disarm it right here:

    "Yeah, it's called real life!"

    Well no, because in real life there are REAL consequences for actions :) give me an awesome game world to develop this way... could be really liberating from the min/maxing we've become so accustomed to.

    Maybe a game where you start as a weak skinny boy/girl and slowly grow up, and through progress you become stronger with more muscles and through your action how you jump run climb or handle a weapon how fast you kill a mob.

    All of this without numbers or lvls, why not i would play such a game.

    And go through Puberty again?!? No thanks! ... LOL image

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

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