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What is the obsession with sub cost?

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  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,875

    Its really simple

    When you pay subscription you are compelled to play.

    Otherwise you payed for something you are not using. And that is against nature of many people.

     

    I have so many games on my plate. I can not dedicate time to one. Not to mention that I might not have time to play, more often than not.

     

    This is where F2P comes to play.

    Its good because you choose when, what or why.

    And you pay only for what you use or need.

    You might play Champions today. Than Fallen earth for two days. Than play Skyrim for week. And than play City of heroes for day or two...

    And not feel you have that game you payed subscription for, but you are not playing...

     

     

    After you experience the freedom F2P gives you. Its almost impossible to go back to P2P

     



  • DJJazzyDJJazzy Member UncommonPosts: 2,053

    Compelled to play because you pay a sub is a good answer.

    One thing is that I really want to know what I'm paying for. If you pay for a game at $60 up front then from a logical standpoint you should be getting 1/4 of that amount of content added per month with a sub fee of $15. But that is never the case. So what is my sub fee contributing to? And don't say server costs, that was debunked long ago.

  • MehveMehve Member Posts: 487

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by VirusDancer


    Originally posted by romanator0

    I don't know about other people, but for me it's not the price, it's the principle of the matter.

    Any developer who wants me to pay for the privelage of playing their game and then is going to lock me out after a certain amount of time unless i pay them more are con artists as far as i'm concerned.

    How can you say it is the principle of the matter... and then say what you did?

    They're hosting the game.  They should do that for free?  Can they go to the people they have to pay - the folks that work for them, their vendors, suppliers, utility bills, leasing for office space, etc, etc...and just say they do not think they should have to pay?

    Plenty of other companies are doing that so I don't see why not. You should also get your facts straight too. Game sales generate a major amount of revenue for the developers and publishers.

    No, plenty of companies aren't doing it for free - they're simply getting their money from different revenue models, nothing more. Any persistant online game has ongoing costs, and if they aren't covered, the game is gone. The methods used to cover those costs may differ (and each player can decide for themselves what they prefer), but to claim that the company has no right to ask for money? Or to withhold their game from non-payers (when they were clearly subscription-based)? Unreasonable.

    And if a game that charges a monthly subscription is getting most of their revenue from box sales, that's a problem. Because if they could keep their players longer than 4 months, their sub revenue would begin to eclipse box sales.

    A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
    That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.

  • romanator0romanator0 Member Posts: 2,382

    Originally posted by Mehve

    Originally posted by romanator0


    Originally posted by VirusDancer


    Originally posted by romanator0

    I don't know about other people, but for me it's not the price, it's the principle of the matter.

    Any developer who wants me to pay for the privelage of playing their game and then is going to lock me out after a certain amount of time unless i pay them more are con artists as far as i'm concerned.

    How can you say it is the principle of the matter... and then say what you did?

    They're hosting the game.  They should do that for free?  Can they go to the people they have to pay - the folks that work for them, their vendors, suppliers, utility bills, leasing for office space, etc, etc...and just say they do not think they should have to pay?

    Plenty of other companies are doing that so I don't see why not. You should also get your facts straight too. Game sales generate a major amount of revenue for the developers and publishers.

    No, plenty of companies aren't doing it for free - they're simply getting their money from different revenue models, nothing more. Any persistant online game has ongoing costs, and if they aren't covered, the game is gone. The methods used to cover those costs may differ (and each player can decide for themselves what they prefer), but to claim that the company has no right to ask for money? Or to withhold their game from non-payers (when they were clearly subscription-based)? Unreasonable.

    And if a game that charges a monthly subscription is getting most of their revenue from box sales, that's a problem. Because if they could keep their players longer than 4 months, their sub revenue would begin to eclipse box sales.

    Of course they are. It also happens to be that those revenue models mean that any money players give them are completely optional.

    image

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681

    Originally posted by Tyvolus1

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    I've read about so many people complaining about the $14.95 subscription cost for SWTOR and other MMO's for that matter. Those same people probably think nothing of spending hundreds of dollars on iPads and other crap but when it comes to what is essentially .50 cents per day for 24/7 entertainment they have a freaking cow.

    And - most MMO's provide new content on a regular basis in the form of patches included in the monthly fee so you have a never ending game.

    Obviously paying for a sub for a game that sucks makes no sense and MMO developers have to produce games and content that customers will WANT to pay for. If they don't ::cough:: Star Trek Online :cough:: they become FTP.

    Is .50 cents per day for round the clock entertainment just too much for people to pay? Really?

     

     $15 a month to play a Single Player RPG is a rip-off.  Too many companies of late (and Bioware is the latest example) are making single player type RPGs with multi-player elements and co-op gameplay and trying to pawn it off as an MMORPG.  sorry, Im not one of the people who is going to play along with that scam.  Since MMORPGs are simply turning into RPGs with a sub fee, I am going to stick to traditional single player RPGs  (and far more enjoyable) games...thank you Bethesda.



    Confucious say: People who know nothing should say nothing.

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • vtravivtravi Member UncommonPosts: 372

    Originally posted by select20

    When I first started playing MMO's when I was 21 years old, (EQ1) and I was very hesitant about paying $15 a month. Even after subbing for a few months, I was still uneasy about it. Then I realized that since staying at home more gaming, I wasn't out as much, not going to the mall out of boredom, not clubbing as much on the weekends, etc.

    To make a long story short, my new gaming hobby that costs me expac prices+subs saved me a heck of a lot of money over the course of 6 months when I wasn't spending over $100 during a weekend going out as much and other things like that. Gaming has literally been the causes of me having a decent savings account.

    This has been my experience, I know not everyone shares this, but for me at least, it has been good.

    This is 100% my feeling. Me and my wife are amazed at how much less money we spend out now that we play MMO's. I am not saying we never go out, but in this last month we both quit Lotro and are waiting on SWToR, and we find ourselves bored and we go out to the mall  just to do something. We have spent way more money not playing MMO's then by playing MMO's. I am happy to spend $15. Honestly if the game was perfect (which none of them are close atm) i would gladly pay $50 a month.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by Icewhite


    Originally posted by romanator0

    Any developer who wants me to pay for the privelage of playing their game and then is going to lock me out after a certain amount of time unless i pay them more are con artists as far as i'm concerned.

    Er, don't finance a car.

    You do know we're talking about games, right? Not cars, not houses, not electricity. Just games.

    Free to play games only get money from their cash shop. They only need a tiny portion of the community to buy anything in the cash shop for them to be profitable.

    Games like TOR, WoW, Rift, TSW and Tera all generate revenue from box sales. Something that free to play games don't get. On top of that a number of sub based games are also adding cash shops or other microtransactions where they generate continual revenue.

    There is no reason at all for a developer to lock people out of a game with a subscription when every justification for one is already covered.



    They have every reason to: It's THEIR business. And why do you think Game Deverlopers are any different from any other business? All need a profit to stay in business - they're not here for your free enjoyment. Pay to play or not - it's your choice.

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681

    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Its really simple

    When you pay subscription you are compelled to play.

    Otherwise you payed for something you are not using. And that is against nature of many people.

     

    I have so many games on my plate. I can not dedicate time to one. Not to mention that I might not have time to play, more often than not.

     

    This is where F2P comes to play.

    Its good because you choose when, what or why.

    And you pay only for what you use or need.

    You might play Champions today. Than Fallen earth for two days. Than play Skyrim for week. And than play City of heroes for day or two...

    And not feel you have that game you payed subscription for, but you are not playing...

     

     

    After you experience the freedom F2P gives you. Its almost impossible to go back to P2P

     



    Spend my time playing games that suck for free or pay for games that don't suck...hmmm...let me think..

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • Tyvolus1Tyvolus1 Member Posts: 815

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    Originally posted by Tyvolus1

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    I've read about so many people complaining about the $14.95 subscription cost for SWTOR and other MMO's for that matter. Those same people probably think nothing of spending hundreds of dollars on iPads and other crap but when it comes to what is essentially .50 cents per day for 24/7 entertainment they have a freaking cow.

    And - most MMO's provide new content on a regular basis in the form of patches included in the monthly fee so you have a never ending game.

    Obviously paying for a sub for a game that sucks makes no sense and MMO developers have to produce games and content that customers will WANT to pay for. If they don't ::cough:: Star Trek Online :cough:: they become FTP.

    Is .50 cents per day for round the clock entertainment just too much for people to pay? Really?

     

     $15 a month to play a Single Player RPG is a rip-off.  Too many companies of late (and Bioware is the latest example) are making single player type RPGs with multi-player elements and co-op gameplay and trying to pawn it off as an MMORPG.  sorry, Im not one of the people who is going to play along with that scam.  Since MMORPGs are simply turning into RPGs with a sub fee, I am going to stick to traditional single player RPGs  (and far more enjoyable) games...thank you Bethesda.



    Confucious say: People who know nothing should say nothing.

     which begs the question:  why are you talking ?

  • romanator0romanator0 Member Posts: 2,382

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    Originally posted by romanator0


    Originally posted by Icewhite


    Originally posted by romanator0

    Any developer who wants me to pay for the privelage of playing their game and then is going to lock me out after a certain amount of time unless i pay them more are con artists as far as i'm concerned.

    Er, don't finance a car.

    You do know we're talking about games, right? Not cars, not houses, not electricity. Just games.

    Free to play games only get money from their cash shop. They only need a tiny portion of the community to buy anything in the cash shop for them to be profitable.

    Games like TOR, WoW, Rift, TSW and Tera all generate revenue from box sales. Something that free to play games don't get. On top of that a number of sub based games are also adding cash shops or other microtransactions where they generate continual revenue.

    There is no reason at all for a developer to lock people out of a game with a subscription when every justification for one is already covered.



    They have every reason to: It's THEIR business. And why do you think Game Deverlopers are any different from any other business? All need a profit to stay in business - they're not here for your free enjoyment. Pay to play or not - it's your choice.

    That reason still doesn't justify a subscription. It only sounds like an excuse people in denial would use so they don't have to face the fact that they are being scammed.

    All reasoning that a subscription is needed is nullified when a developer makes money off of game sales and makes money through microtransactions.

    Subscriptions for games are scams.

    image

  • bezadobezado Member UncommonPosts: 1,127


    Originally posted by echolynfan
    I've read about so many people complaining about the $14.95 subscription cost for SWTOR and other MMO's for that matter. Those same people probably think nothing of spending hundreds of dollars on iPads and other crap but when it comes to what is essentially .50 cents per day for 24/7 entertainment they have a freaking cow.
    And - most MMO's provide new content on a regular basis in the form of patches included in the monthly fee so you have a never ending game.
    Obviously paying for a sub for a game that sucks makes no sense and MMO developers have to produce games and content that customers will WANT to pay for. If they don't ::cough:: Star Trek Online :cough:: they become FTP.
    Is .50 cents per day for round the clock entertainment just too much for people to pay? Really?
     

    The problem is that it doesn't equate to 50 cents a day. This logic is flawed. There is no current mmorpg which charges you on a daily bases, if it did then I could see 50 cents being correct per day, but in the real world it does not work. Every sub is a monthly charge of $15 roughly. If the average mmorpg sub based game has an average player length of 1 year then they end up paying $180 a year on sub based material, while the games patches for the first year after launch are mostly bug fixes and hardly any content if any at all.

    Take into account the economy. $15 extra a month could mean a couple meals less to a lot of folks, and with the cost of living increasing on a monthly bases, people are not making up for it in their checks. Also take into account how many of these mmorpg have failed, or have taken customers for granted. People don't look at it the same way they did 6+ years ago. I know for a fact that most mmorpg sub based fees are way to much for the product they are offering.

    Not one mmorpg of today that is at the $15 mark is worth it in my opinion. If they want to charge you this amount they should offer better quality gameplay and more content and support. They are to worried about making profits off a old sub model that was around since EQ because the market was still fresh and new and people were okay at paying for something fun and new, today it is not so much fun and new anymore and everyone seems to be offering the same old same old.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by echolynfan


    Originally posted by romanator0


    Originally posted by Icewhite


    Originally posted by romanator0

    Any developer who wants me to pay for the privelage of playing their game and then is going to lock me out after a certain amount of time unless i pay them more are con artists as far as i'm concerned.

    Er, don't finance a car.

    You do know we're talking about games, right? Not cars, not houses, not electricity. Just games.

    Free to play games only get money from their cash shop. They only need a tiny portion of the community to buy anything in the cash shop for them to be profitable.

    Games like TOR, WoW, Rift, TSW and Tera all generate revenue from box sales. Something that free to play games don't get. On top of that a number of sub based games are also adding cash shops or other microtransactions where they generate continual revenue.

    There is no reason at all for a developer to lock people out of a game with a subscription when every justification for one is already covered.



    They have every reason to: It's THEIR business. And why do you think Game Deverlopers are any different from any other business? All need a profit to stay in business - they're not here for your free enjoyment. Pay to play or not - it's your choice.

    That reason still doesn't justify a subscription. It only sounds like an excuse people in denial would use so they don't have to face the fact that they are being scammed.

    All reasoning that a subscription is needed is nullified when a developer makes money off of game sales and makes money through microtransactions.

    Subscriptions for games are scams.



    No - they're not. You want an example of a scam - here's one:

    You order a BK Whopper after you see this lucious picture:

    But instead receive this one:

    Now THAT is a scam.

     

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • romanator0romanator0 Member Posts: 2,382

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    Originally posted by romanator0


    Originally posted by echolynfan


    Originally posted by romanator0


    Originally posted by Icewhite


    Originally posted by romanator0

    Any developer who wants me to pay for the privelage of playing their game and then is going to lock me out after a certain amount of time unless i pay them more are con artists as far as i'm concerned.

    Er, don't finance a car.

    You do know we're talking about games, right? Not cars, not houses, not electricity. Just games.

    Free to play games only get money from their cash shop. They only need a tiny portion of the community to buy anything in the cash shop for them to be profitable.

    Games like TOR, WoW, Rift, TSW and Tera all generate revenue from box sales. Something that free to play games don't get. On top of that a number of sub based games are also adding cash shops or other microtransactions where they generate continual revenue.

    There is no reason at all for a developer to lock people out of a game with a subscription when every justification for one is already covered.



    They have every reason to: It's THEIR business. And why do you think Game Deverlopers are any different from any other business? All need a profit to stay in business - they're not here for your free enjoyment. Pay to play or not - it's your choice.

    That reason still doesn't justify a subscription. It only sounds like an excuse people in denial would use so they don't have to face the fact that they are being scammed.

    All reasoning that a subscription is needed is nullified when a developer makes money off of game sales and makes money through microtransactions.

    Subscriptions for games are scams.



    No - they're not. You want an example of a scam - here's one:

    You order a BK Whopper after you see this lucious picture:

    snip

    Now THAT is a scam.

     

    Funny. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation then don't bother posting.

    image

  • HoplitesHoplites Member CommonPosts: 463

    F2P was the norm before P2P, and the reason why P2P became popular because it delivered a unique experience.  Now, that is no longer the case, many consumers are questioning the point of paying a sub.  I can think of a handfull of games worth subbing to, but that is what has happened to the market due to saturation.  P2P will become popular again, but in the mean time F2P has made a come back.

     

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005

    Originally posted by Hoplites

    F2P was the norm before P2P, and the reason why P2P became popular because it delivered a unique experience.  Now, that is no longer the case, many consumers are questioning the point of paying a sub.  I can think of a handfull of games worth subbing to, but that is what has happened to the market due to saturation.  P2P will become popular again, but in the mean time F2P has made a come back.

     

    Huh?

     

    When F2P was "popular"?

     

    I think you mistook that with B2P actually and that's kinda big diffrence.

     

    I agree with 'unique experience' though. Mmorpg's nowadays play like co-op / mulitplayer / solo games, (soloification, streamlining, lack of need to cooperate with other players, LFG and AH, quest trackers,etc) yeah I kinda can agree with that.

     

     

    --------------------

     

    On topic:

    I can pay 20-25 $ / month for good, REAL mmorpg. I mean feature-rich, mmorpg I HAVE to make choice, cooperate and just be in world. 

    Cost itself for me is not a big problem (and I am really below middle-class) since I can afford 15-25$ / month, but that have to guarantee me a WORLD to play in AND NO cash shop and RMT things that developers seem to try to put everywhere.

     

    So yeah 0,5 -1 $ per day is really like nothing for amount of entertaiment.

     

    I find F2P and cash shops more dangerous for my expenses.

    Not to mention ruining my game experience.

  • XzenXzen Member UncommonPosts: 2,607

    Costs of running and maintaining servers and data centers has gone down. That being the case why haven't subscription prices gone down? You're not paying for development. Thats what box sales are for. It's simple. You are being taken for a ride.

  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,035

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    I've read about so many people complaining about the $14.95 subscription cost for SWTOR and other MMO's for that matter. Those same people probably think nothing of spending hundreds of dollars on iPads and other crap but when it comes to what is essentially .50 cents per day for 24/7 entertainment they have a freaking cow.

    And - most MMO's provide new content on a regular basis in the form of patches included in the monthly fee so you have a never ending game.

    Obviously paying for a sub for a game that sucks makes no sense and MMO developers have to produce games and content that customers will WANT to pay for. If they don't ::cough:: Star Trek Online :cough:: they become FTP.

    Is .50 cents per day for round the clock entertainment just too much for people to pay? Really?

     

    I tread the pages of alot of forums and I never see complainst about MMO sub rates. The odd persons suggests they don't play a game because they simply can't afford it but they would rather just not talk about it.

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,372

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    I've read about so many people complaining about the $14.95 subscription cost for SWTOR and other MMO's for that matter. Those same people probably think nothing of spending hundreds of dollars on iPads and other crap but when it comes to what is essentially .50 cents per day for 24/7 entertainment they have a freaking cow.

    And - most MMO's provide new content on a regular basis in the form of patches included in the monthly fee so you have a never ending game.

    Obviously paying for a sub for a game that sucks makes no sense and MMO developers have to produce games and content that customers will WANT to pay for. If they don't ::cough:: Star Trek Online :cough:: they become FTP.

    Is .50 cents per day for round the clock entertainment just too much for people to pay? Really?

     

    I am right there with you.  Though I prefer sub games, it seems like it keeps a bit more riff raff out of the game.  Also I like that it motivates the company to RETAIN customers as opposed to just spewing constant crud like many f2p games do who really don't care if you stay or go, they just want you to click the cash shop at some point, any point.

    image
  • Tyvolus1Tyvolus1 Member Posts: 815

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by echolynfan

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Any developer who wants me to pay for the privelage of playing their game and then is going to lock me out after a certain amount of time unless i pay them more are con artists as far as i'm concerned.

    Er, don't finance a car.

    You do know we're talking about games, right? Not cars, not houses, not electricity. Just games.

    Free to play games only get money from their cash shop. They only need a tiny portion of the community to buy anything in the cash shop for them to be profitable.

    Games like TOR, WoW, Rift, TSW and Tera all generate revenue from box sales. Something that free to play games don't get. On top of that a number of sub based games are also adding cash shops or other microtransactions where they generate continual revenue.

    There is no reason at all for a developer to lock people out of a game with a subscription when every justification for one is already covered.



    They have every reason to: It's THEIR business. And why do you think Game Deverlopers are any different from any other business? All need a profit to stay in business - they're not here for your free enjoyment. Pay to play or not - it's your choice.

    That reason still doesn't justify a subscription. It only sounds like an excuse people in denial would use so they don't have to face the fact that they are being scammed.

    All reasoning that a subscription is needed is nullified when a developer makes money off of game sales and makes money through microtransactions.

    Subscriptions for games are scams.



    No - they're not. You want an example of a scam - here's one:

    You order a BK Whopper after you see this lucious picture:

    But instead receive this one:

    Now THAT is a scam.

     

     props on the illsutrated version of a scam.  its pretty much EXACTLY why I dont eat at places like B.K. or taco bell...on the flip side, I also dont pay, nor will I pay, $15 per month to play a single player RPG with some multi-player aspects to it.  Just like I dont call that thing in the pic a Hamburger, SWTOR isnt an MMORPG.

    and thats just the way it is.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    1 year P2P:

    $59.99 + ($15*12) = $240

    The yearly cost of a P2P isn't that cheap unless you only play that game. If you play multiple games it would add up to a very high number.

  • CothorCothor Member UncommonPosts: 174

    If you can't afford a monthly MMORPG sub with extreme ease, you shouldn't be playing games, you should be out getting some form of education, or a second job so that you can be a productive member of society.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    Originally posted by Cothor

    If you can't afford a monthly MMORPG sub with extreme ease, you shouldn't be playing games, you should be out getting some form of education, or a second job so that you can be a productive member of society.

    That's pretty flawed logic Cothor, a brain and body has to relax at some point too, you can't study and have a job 24 hours a day.

  • Rusty715Rusty715 Member Posts: 482

    Originally posted by Cothor

    If you can't afford a monthly MMORPG sub with extreme ease, you shouldn't be playing games, you should be out getting some form of education, or a second job so that you can be a productive member of society.

    Its not a question if people can afford 50 cents a day its a question of what do I get for my $15. Anything more than I can get from a F2P for $5 a month?  I know a lot of the asian grinders are scams no doubt but there are some quality F2P games emerging that cost a lot less on a monthly basis. Maybe the reason people can afford a sub fee is because they seek the best value for their money in their day to day lives? I dont know but sub fees are quickly becoming scarce payment models and there is a reason for it. The cats out of the bag now as has been shown by Turbine and SOE with their F2P and GW with its buy to play. And this is coming from a guy that has never been a fan of F2P.

    Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.

  • kellian1kellian1 Member UncommonPosts: 235

    I have played MMO's since UO, spent countless number of dollars on EQ, EQII, WoW, you name it.

    I currently see absolutly no reason to spend $15 a month on ANY of the current crop of MMO's when I can play games like LoTro where, to be perfectly honest, Is I game I USED to pay for when it came out and no that it's FTP I don' pay a single cent for in any way shape or form (and this is from someone who spent 5 months beta testing swtor)

    When an MMO comes out and gives me $15 a month worth of entertainemnet above and beyond what I can currently get for free...I will be all over it. Until then, there is no reason too, the wife and I have a fun enough time playing LotRo. It isn't the best out there but as I said there isn't another game worth $15 a month that would give us that much value over what we currently play.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847

    To the op...

    I agree full heartedly but also remeber it is not as simple as OUR 50 cents a day.

    I think you need to look at the whole picture,and i am fair about all of it,i have no problem paying the 15 bucks.

    This is what i see in the big picture,a developer if they have 2 mil subs that is 30 million dollars a month.Ok so they are chattering Lucas Arts is making aot of that,exactly how much idk.I'l;l base judgement on my simple math ,assuming they talk PROFITS it is based on first full year.They claim 100 million cost and they need 500k subs.so to turn profit that would mean those 500k will turn in 100 million over the year to EA.That means 500k subs are making them about say 5 million a month?

    So EA is making around 33% off  the subs.That is only assuming there is a % deal in the license and not a straight up licensing fee.Ok times htta by 4 if you figure 2 mil subs,i think it wil lhave more but no matter,that is a nice 20 million PROFIT a month,well minus expenditures.

    This is the big number people see,not the 50 cents a day.That 12x20 million after the first full year would be a lot of money.Now if we see the developer show some love back and create some free content,then it is a fair operation.However look at Blizzard BRAGGING about their 1 billion Wow makes them a year,you think they have shown any kind of love back to the subscribers?

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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