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The "Competitive" community is ruining MMORPG's

pezitpezit Member UncommonPosts: 63

I'll use SW:ToR as the example in this post but a lot of this is true for most new games.

To start of all the races are exactly the same, the only difference between them is a unique emote and the two factions are mirrored, a bounty hunter has the exact same skill set as a republic trooper. This is all because making stuff unique makes it hard to balance, and the people who "competes" in MMO's will cry their eyes out because of imba if the designers went all out with cool design. I'm fine if some games wants to take this road of blandness but right now it feels like every game is and to be honest I think the majority of the casual gamers would prefer stuff to be more unique and different over bland and balanced.

I guess I expected ToR to be more daring in this regard, especially since the game clearly gives the vibe that it's more focused on just casual fun and good story rather than competitive PvP/PvE.

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Comments

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342

    I don't see it as a 'competition' issue.  It allows me a chance to experience all the classes without having to change factions and can thus play with my friends.   I always hated the fact that if I wanted to seriously try a new class that was opposite faction only, I could not chat or group with my friends and guildies.

     

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    Warhammer online.  Forum spam with QQing how alliance have better merc, why bright wizard rocks, and it's counter partner sorceress sucks.

    Balance matters.  Not to me but alot of people cares.

    I suppose I like unbalance game.  In the sense some class may suck at pvp but excell in other things... like crafting pve, etc etc

  • McDougles1McDougles1 Member Posts: 35

    They can't afford to be unique; they're esitmated to have spent $135,000,000 on making this game. If they do anything wildly different that causes the game to not sell like hot cakes, people would inevitably get fired over this. You can't take risks when so much money is involved.

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada Member UncommonPosts: 1,282


    Originally posted by laokoko
    Warhammer online.  Forum spam with QQing how alliance have better merc, why bright wizard rocks, and it's counter partner sorceress sucks.
    Balance matters. 

    Wrong, deeply wrong - Advantage matters!

    Players who play to win never look for equality or balance, balance to them is when they have the odds at least 3:1 on their side.

    Get rid of classes, allow builds and anyone who deeply needs to play a fotm build can do so while the rest plays for fun - let it be a natural selection of gaming styles and stop bother to please peaople who cant be pleased and only destroy the potential richness of the mmo world!

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • pezitpezit Member UncommonPosts: 63

    Originally posted by laokoko

    Warhammer online.  Forum spam with QQing how alliance have better merc, why bright wizard rocks, and it's counter partner sorceress sucks.

    Balance matters.  Not to me but alot of people cares.

    I suppose I like unbalance game.  In the sense some class may suck at pvp but excell in other things... like crafting pve, etc etc



    The thing is that the complainers always comes to forums, that's what forums are for - complaining. Games that are doing great has massive complaining on their forums.

    I also like unbalanced games because balance does not equal fun contrary to popular belief, it's just a curse of moderm multiplayer games. Look at diablo 2, it's completely unbalanced but still fun as hell, thank god they're sticking to it in diablo 3 throwing balance out the window and just adding a bunch of awesome abilities.

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    Originally posted by Blutmaul

     




    Originally posted by laokoko

    Warhammer online.  Forum spam with QQing how alliance have better merc, why bright wizard rocks, and it's counter partner sorceress sucks.

    Balance matters. 




    Wrong, deeply wrong - Advantage matters!

    Players who play to win never look for equality or balance, balance to them is when they have the odds at least 3:1 on their side.

    Get rid of classes, allow builds and anyone who deeply needs to play a fotm build can do so while the rest plays for fun - let it be a natural selection of gaming styles and stop bother to please peaople who cant be pleased and only destroy the potential richness of the mmo world!

    Ya sure you don't care.  But there are people who care.  And alot of them. 

    I'm not talking about classful builds or classless builds, that's an entire differnt topic.  We are takling about mmorpg with class.  And people complain alot about it in warhammer online when the two sides have different class/talent. 

    I dont' care myself.  I prefer a non class system too.  And didn't care alot about balance.  But believe me other people care.

     

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    Originally posted by Blutmaul

     




    Originally posted by laokoko

    Warhammer online.  Forum spam with QQing how alliance have better merc, why bright wizard rocks, and it's counter partner sorceress sucks.

    Balance matters. 




    Wrong, deeply wrong - Advantage matters!

    Players who play to win never look for equality or balance, balance to them is when they have the odds at least 3:1 on their side.

    Get rid of classes, allow builds and anyone who deeply needs to play a fotm build can do so while the rest plays for fun - let it be a natural selection of gaming styles and stop bother to please peaople who cant be pleased and only destroy the potential richness of the mmo world!

    Aka I like it my way.  And what the other people like don't matter.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Heheh if you expected TOR to be daring, then you were wrong right there.

    I wouldn't really use TOR as an example of why games don't take enough risk in differentiation between factions.  Because TOR doesn't take enough risk in ANYTHING.  It is one of the most "play it safe" MMORPGs I have ever played.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • 77lolmac7777lolmac77 Member UncommonPosts: 492

    The real problem is people assume that because when they play as class X and run into class Y and lose, that class Y is overpowered and class X is underpowered. In reality they're probably just not very good, or class Y is SUPPOSED to be able to handle class X rather easily. It's about rock, paper, scissors no matter how much you want to deny that. That's the point of having different classes, some are designed to take out certain play types while being vulnerable to others. That's not to say there's never balancing issues, far from it. But that's usually pretty easy to spot since it would be a class that EASILY can beat any other class (ie: rogues when WoW came out)

  • Z3R01Z3R01 Member UncommonPosts: 2,415

    People in general ruin mmorpgs.

    If you need me to elaborate you havent spent much time in the genre.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • kazmokazmo Member Posts: 715

    This is why I'm looking forward to The Secret World. A massive skill set to choose from, and a wide range of clothing to be unique. So whenever someone complains like someone pissed in their cheerios, then you can just tell them to stfu and try a new skill deck from the supposed hundreds of other skills.

    So yes, in a nutshell, the rabid "competitors" ruin MMOs and a lot of games in general. Devoting time to "balancing" a world with clearly different races and creatures, classes, abilities... into something sterile, is just absurd. If it's supposed to be different, then let it be. If someone wants to compete, let them go play fucking chess or something, where you get a fair advantage on both sides. Though these types of people will inevitably suck at chess because they have to use planning, and their wits, etc.

    Heaven forbid people use their imagination or get devoted to their characters, for the sake of atmosphere, ambience, themselves and those around them. Not to mention.. the human race..... but that's another discussion for a different time.

  • ComanComan Member UncommonPosts: 2,171

    Originally posted by aeroplane22

    So yes, in a nutshell, the rabid "competitors" ruin MMOs and a lot of games in general. Devoting time to "balancing" a world with clearly different races and creatures, classes, abilities... into something sterile, is just absurd. If it's supposed to be different, then let it be. If someone wants to compete, let them go play fucking chess or something, where you get a fair advantage on both sides. Though these types of people will inevitably suck at chess because they have to use planning, and their wits, etc.

    It's a game with PvP. Offcourse people want it balanced. You as a developer do not want to balance a game, then do not add PvP. It dumb blaming the competitors for it. It a multiplayer game, clearly there is going to be some sort of compitition. Even without PvP. Who would be the first to reach level X (People want every class to level as fast), who craft items X first, who does dungoun X first, etc, etc, etc. 

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Balance isn't that important in a PvE game but all classes still need to add something to a party.

    As soon as you add PvP however a game needs to have it, there is really no way around it.  Mirror classes are boring but a must for games with PvP.

    In a PvE game like LOTRO it doesn't matter, even though just LOTRO just have 1 real faction. Maybe a few more games should focus all the effort on PvE because I rather have great PvE than so-so of both, it would allow the devs to care less about the balance and to make classes that are unique.

  • kazmokazmo Member Posts: 715

    It isn't a must. Balance is not that important.

    This is just a paradigm you construct in your mind because you haven't seen anything else done successfully, or you refuse to accept it.

    Soon enough, this whole paradigm will collapse, and everything will change. Then "balance" will be a subjective and unimportant term.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    A game with good PvP has to have good balance. They go hand in hand. If you don't like balance, there's a good chance you don't care much about PvP either.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • kazmokazmo Member Posts: 715

    I enjoy PvP actually.

    First of all, I've never seen a game that was totally "balanced". It's just a complete misnomer. "Balanced PvP" with various classes is an oxymoron. It just doesn't, and shouldn't, make any sense.

    What always happens is the dev team spends an unholy amount of time (wasted potential and wasted resources) juggling "flavor of the month" class builds. They do it for years, until the game suffers a cruel, stagnant fate. Worst of all, the PvE suffers eternally, due to nearly ALL the focus put on appeasing the raving "BALANCE PVP" fanatics. Trying to make 16 classes able to stand toe to toe with one another, and still maintaining individual "uniqueness" (LOL), good luck with that. That's why everyone uses the exact same gear and virtually the same strategies at end-game.

    This is why the locked class system with the holy trinity is completely archaic. It can be done, and be fun, but don't pretend like you ever balance this shit, because you can't. I think skill decks (ala Secret World) are the way of the future, at least a step in the right direction. Hopefully, we'll see how it pans out.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247

    This is why I find it hard to accept PvP with PvE. The two playstyles affect each other too much to make either one happy, let alone both. A DPSer should be a tazmanian devil dealing out massive amounts of damage before they take too much and die. Tanks should be lumbering damage takers that forever to take down another, but can last that long. Healers should just keep healing themselves, maybe throwing in a kick here and a punch there until the competition dies from exhaustion.

    Balance is bland and boring.

    I should note that it is not just the PvPers that call for this. PvEers also cry imbalance when one class levels faster than theirs. But this goes back to "competitors" and the race to the endgame.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ThorqemadaThorqemada Member UncommonPosts: 1,282

    Its an experience made in years of mmo gaming.
    People who plead for balance never want balance in the meaning of equal odds - they want balance in the meaning of having their favourite class favoured 3:1.
    As a developer never fall to that pleads, you only ruin your game!
    Give the PvPers the tools to build their chars the way they want - which not means that all abilities be equal powerfull.
    Instead let them sort out weak builds and explore strong builds and let them play them - now anything is fine.

    Gamers that want really equal odds play sport games, or fps games without level and gear progression!

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • jurupajurupa Member Posts: 16

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Balance isn't that important in a PvE game but all classes still need to add something to a party.

    As soon as you add PvP however a game needs to have it, there is really no way around it.  Mirror classes are boring but a must for games with PvP.

    In a PvE game like LOTRO it doesn't matter, even though just LOTRO just have 1 real faction. Maybe a few more games should focus all the effort on PvE because I rather have great PvE than so-so of both, it would allow the devs to care less about the balance and to make classes that are unique.

    Balance is important in PVE as welll, just not in the same way as it is in PVP.  When you got hybrid classes you have to make sure they don't step on the toe's of other classes to much as otherwise you either make the class unless or obsolete and people don't like that.  This is part of the reason why I quit WoW as Blizzard made the feral druid class too rogue like in my opinion and it render rogues useless basically.    Also read the LOTRO forum and you will see people complaing how the hybrid classes there are stepping on the toes of other classes in one way or another.  Because when you start having this inmabalance not only people get upset, you litterally lower how many unqiue classes in game.

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Member Posts: 376

    Well, I'm fairly competative when it comes to PvP. But I agree 100% on mirrored races and classes. To me it's unacceptable. One of the reasons I don't like SW:TOR and won't be buying it is because of the blandness of races and classes. Screw balance, I want variety. You'll never achieve perfect balance unless you make a game with only 1 class anyway.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren Member Posts: 295

    When it comes to it you need balance in pvp and pve to some extent, as has been said true balance is near impossible to achieve in most games without ruining the game overall. Saying a pvper who wants to have a largely balanced game in pvp should go play a fps or such, is well like me tellingl the other pvper's to play with an arm behind their back to give them a disadvantage, it is completely retarded on both sides of it. If someone on either said of the balance debate has to leave the game they pay money to enjoy, then i say shut the game down, send the players back to the console world.  Balance does not have to be bland actually as if both classes can achieve the same result, yet do so in a different style and manner from each other that is balance with a uniqueness as well. Wining in pvp should not come down to just who is better, who is the fotm class, or who has better gear, but a merger of the three  with skill build, and gear all playing a role in the  fight. Also for pve largely it was always seeming to be dmage meters that made people complain, witth such and such class does so much more dps compared to me, and other bs like that. Being competitive or atleast feeling you have a chance to win is part of the draw fr many people, thhough many want unique class with different styles of play that proform at a reasonable level to other class, and so should be just as viable as other classes in pvp and pve combat. If you want unique unbalanced pvp combat  would sugest going to a largely non faction game like l2, as in factional games it does make sense that your races classes have a degree of similarity to each other yet also some unique feel and flavor to them.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    Originally posted by aeroplane22

    I enjoy PvP actually.

    First of all, I've never seen a game that was totally "balanced". It's just a complete misnomer. "Balanced PvP" with various classes is an oxymoron. It just doesn't, and shouldn't, make any sense.

    What always happens is the dev team spends an unholy amount of time (wasted potential and wasted resources) juggling "flavor of the month" class builds. They do it for years, until the game suffers a cruel, stagnant fate. Worst of all, the PvE suffers eternally, due to nearly ALL the focus put on appeasing the raving "BALANCE PVP" fanatics. Trying to make 16 classes able to stand toe to toe with one another, and still maintaining individual "uniqueness" (LOL), good luck with that. That's why everyone uses the exact same gear and virtually the same strategies at end-game.

    This is why the locked class system with the holy trinity is completely archaic. It can be done, and be fun, but don't pretend like you ever balance this shit, because you can't. I think skill decks (ala Secret World) are the way of the future, at least a step in the right direction. Hopefully, we'll see how it pans out.

    I wonder if everyone who dislikes balance misunderstands it like you do. No, I am not talking about 1 on 1 balance. Rock, paper, scissors is in perfect balance. This type of balance is what MMORPGs should strive for. The closer they get to perfection, the better it is. It is impossible to have a perfect balance, I know, but those manhours used for balancing the game are well spent.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699

    Putting class balance aside for a minute, doesn't  the word  "game" imply competition?

    I would argue if there are no winners and losers then it's not a game, it's just an activity or hobby.  If you're looking for a good story then I would suggest reading a book or watching a movie.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Member Posts: 1,214

    Originally posted by Torik

    I don't see it as a 'competition' issue.  It allows me a chance to experience all the classes without having to change factions and can thus play with my friends.   I always hated the fact that if I wanted to seriously try a new class that was opposite faction only, I could not chat or group with my friends and guildies.

     

    I agree with this....but how about a little twist of sorts to make it kinda remotely interesting and different.

     

    Still more work for the dev's, but not near as much would be to simply make different spell animations, combat moves, and emotes for the same classes (Of the different factions). Maybe have 1 spell or move that is unique to Ranger A of Faction 1 (Say, Barrage- Multi-Arrow shot), and another for the other Factions Ranger class (Say Piercing Shot (Goes through target and can hti an additional target).

     

    Oh wait, I know why they don't do this. people will cry.

     

     

     

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Putting class balance aside for a minute, doesn't  the word  "game" imply competition?

    I would argue if there are no winners and losers then it's not a game, it's just an activity or hobby.  If you're looking for a good story then I would suggest reading a book or watching a movie.

    Plenty of hobies have winning and losing in them and we do not consider them games.  Ever try putting together a model plane and have it come out wrong?   Ultimately winning and losing is subjective and based on a person's goals.   You could win a competition and still consider yourself a loser because you did not accomplish the goal you set out for yourself.

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