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I hope EVE expands to include a full avatar game path. (wall of text)
MindTrigger
Member Posts: 2,596
I'm not the first person to say this, but I hope EVE expands to include a full avatar game path. I also know the very thought of this makes most die-hard EVE fans throw-up in their mouths. I would like to add though, that I wouldn't wish this on your game, unless CCP could do it without sacrificing the space game. I lived through the whole SWG NGE thing, and watched my beloved game destroyed in the pursuit of corporate greed. As we all know, SOE only ended up further marginalizing SWG with thier efforts and losing their entire hardcore player base that made the game special, if niche, in the first place.
As someone who is fascinated by virtual reality and gaming, I have followed EVE as an outside observer for years. I have made no less than five attempts to get into the game myself, but at the end of the day I had trouble connecting to it. I never last more than a week or two before I quit again.
The reasons for me are fairly simple, and after reading Hellmar's apology letter, I can see that CCP are very well aware of what it is that keeps a larger player base away from the game. It's not that I don't have the patience for it, and I certainly love the game's depth and complexity. The problem is that I cannot identify myself in the game world as a ship or ships. As Hellmar's mentioned, many of us need an avatar to make that connection. This may seem like splitting hairs to some of you, but it is what it is. When I game, I project my mind into my avatar, and I become that character. Some people are content with a more 'puppet master' view of their characters, but I am not.
There were other problems as well. Entry into this game is a very lonely affair, even with the New Player Experience team putting in much effort. It's just not a very social game in the beginning, which is sad for an MMORPG, especially a sandbox style game. I don't know how it could be very social when your avatar is whatever ship you are flying at the time, and that's part of the first issue I mentioned as well. I remember in Star Wars Galaxies getting sucked in rigth away, not by the game's offerings, but by other players who used to sit at the Starports and wait for brand new people to spawn so they could take them on a tour, help them get started, and maybe give them some lowbie essentials and credits. That is something I will never forget and I later went on to do this for several other new players once I had leveled up. Talk about immersion....
When I look at EVE as an outsider and think about the potential, it pretty much blows my mind. I mean here you have a game that is what, eight years old now, and it shows no signs of aging or slowing down thanks to the devs continusing to improve and evolve it. This alone is fairly mind blowing. More importantly, we have a game that could potentially be expanded and improved upon for decades to come, if CCP can keep the core game strong, while expanding into other areas.
My interest in EVE would be in a real, PC-based 'incarna' game path that works in parallel with the ship/space based game. I think DUST was a mistake. I get what they were trying to do there, but console gamers are just too volatile, as is the whole console market from top to bottom. Even if DUST was technically pulled off, you'd be lucky of people gave a crap about it a year after release. Even monsters like the HALO franchise games burn out just about as soon as the next shiney new console shooter comes out. I don't know. Maybe it's possible, but it seems unlikely.
I would like to see EVE evolve into a full virtual world game that caters to everyone, not just space combat players. I imagine, as I'm sure CCP does, a full gameplay path for those who do not wish to venture into deep space in ships. I see this a lot like Star Wars Galaxies having a bunch of essentially non-combat professions in the early days. Those professions were often support-based such as doctors, politicians, scientists, crafters, traders, and entertainers. They brought many different kinds of people to the game, and made it a much more alive and rich experience than any of these combat-only focused games are today (though EVE is a different animal).
I hope CCP finds a way to do both, or maybe someone else will. When I think about what EVE could be years from now, my mind is boggled. Imagine having planets, stations, ships and everything alive with players doing various jobs and activities. When I think of the FUTURE of MMO gaming, I look at EVE, not the stuff coming out down the road. Those MMOs are pretty stale and predictable, and not one of them has the expansion potential that EVE seems to have.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Comments
Great write there. I think you covered a huge chunk of how I feel about EVE. I'm not an outside observer, as I've played for years, but I feel exactly the same as you do about the potential of it. I hope it gets there, or if not, I hope someone else does it.
*I lean up against your wall with loving affection*
Great in theory, not so much in practice.
No doubt CCP do have full avatar immersion in their ideal "future vision", but EVE IS a space game and thus taking development time away from that aspect in order to chase a crowd of gamers (so disinterested in the core concept of the game that not being able to stare at their avatars backside 24/7 is a game breaker for them), is something of a no-no for me tbh.
If CCP could phase it in with zero drop in core gameplay mechanics development and updates.
If CCP could attract a crowd clearly not that interested in the current game and keep them happy without spending all their time on said crowd.
If CCP could bring in a new playerbase whilst adhereing to their (rather hardcore) concept.
Then I'd be all for it. But there are some pretty large if's there. Don't get me wrong, it could be fantastic and they clearly are/were looking at doing that. But it would be far easier doing it from the start, not x amount of years down the line with the possibility of ruining a one off in the genre.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
hahah.. thanks man.
For the record, I haven't seen the game in about a year, so I am currently downloading it again to have a look. I don't expect this look to change my mind, because the problems I mentioned still exist for my playstyle, but I am always curious about how this game is changing.
I mean it when I say that I think EVE possibly represents the future of MMO gaming even more than any new game coming out that we know of, and probably any others in the planning stages. I know from years of conversations that even people who do not play EVE are jealous of the amazing sandbox experience you guys have, and we often dream of a ground based game that offers the same depth. I'd be even more happy to get both of these experiences within some future version of EVE.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I agree with what you are saying here, except that I think they could slowly take this game in this direction if they wanted to. The WiS stuff is a good start. Even if that's as far as they believe they could take it, that would make it much more interesting for people like me. New players coming into the game and old players interested in mentoring or recruiting could have a much more interesting and social interaction than they currently do. Obviously being able to unplug from your ship and socialize (gather, organize, buy things, etc) in stations would bring a lot to the experience as well. My larger vision is obviously a long-shot dream, but there does seem to be some middle ground available here.
After reading what Hellmar wrote, it's clear they probably had their hands in too many cookie jars with Dust and the other games which effected EVE. Perhaps at least some of those resources could go toward opening the game up some, while the rest concentrate on the core game as you suggest.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
There it is, right there.
All shooters have a prime that lasts no more than a year or so, with exceptions being things with a past-calling, like Quake or CS:Source. I doubt Dust can have that core audience, because it would have to be EVE players that just happen to like FPS games. Most others will be over it and onto the next MW map pack. Shooters don't face anything like the trends MMOs see, so I see this as a losing battle before it even happens.
On the other hand, Dust could still just be the testbed for their ground-combat engine, but wrapped around a product (gotta make money somehow). The same tech that runs avatars in the quarters is supposedly the same thing working in Dust and WoD, so regardless of the outcome with Dust, it's still good for any hope of ground combat in EVE and WoD.
Personally, I would have taken a more tactical approach if moving ground combat into EVE. Much like Tabula Rasa, but with corners and other objects used as cover, and rolls being made with combat similar to EVE itself, mostly automated. Think about it - then you could take your eyes off the hotbar and watch combat like an action flick. It would look great, in the very least, and who could be against assassinations on-board stations? Concord officers can pwn there as well.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I'll tell you this OP. Every single word and MORE... is the SAME exact way I feel about Eve... to the VERY TEE!
I actually want to write a letter to CPP for this. Maybe have a poll or something. I think it would be amazing! I think Eve Online is the future of MMORPG with the mechanics and everything, but yes I can't see myself being a ship the entire time in the game neither. I think Eve Online will eventually become more of a virtual life simulation universe. With how big the universe is, I think it will take a lot of time for us to venture other plans and etc. In my eyes, I think I might just play Eve Online right now and hope that we actally get real avatars of humans running in planets. If Eve Online does this, it will be THE ONLY game I play. hands down! I'm a musician and I'm too busy to just play too many games but gaming is another passion of mine and I envy the amazingness of Eve Online and I wish I could change my taste as a player so I can just enjoy Eve in the long run.
This is like a splitting image of my mind as a gamer especially someone that loves sand boxes. I just don't know what to do anymore. I almost feel like playing single player sandbox games until Eve Online comes out with this. I mena I don't know what to do. What do you play now OP?
they dont have the manpower to do this. if they invested more in EVE rather than some stupid emo vampire game, might have been a different story. the other issue is that the space ship game is not actually that good. the combat system is awkward and uninteresting, the pvp design is bad, and there will always be massive imbalances. if you give people an excuse to leave space, they will go shoot each other in stations and play industry.
*Gasp*
If you say anything that remotely ties the World of Darkness to Twilight I will give you a slap!
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
There is a scale to EVE that simply does not fit humanoid avatars.
Think of the number of stations in a single system.
Think of the number of planets in a single system.
Think of the number of systems.
EVE lost some folks with the focus on WiS instead of FiS. They picked up some folks that thought it would be more than it ended up being. They were disappointed. The folks that had left kind of pointed fingers, laughed, and said told you so.
Would one consider telling Blizzard, Trion, ArenaNet, Mythic, etc - that hey, I like your game and all; but it would be better if we could fly around in spaceships and visit other star systems?
What some people are looking for with EVE, they'll never get - and - in the process of trying to give it to them, CCP would end up losing what they had.
Some people need to be able to stare at the butt of their avatar in games . . . but not all games should offer you the chance to stare at that butt.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
That is all some folks know. It is a shame.
In that regard, I bet there are some folks out there that picked up Mage to run Harry Potter campaigns.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Stamp of Approval
I will be the other hand that lands on his face!
World of Darkness is more than just vampires and its one of the best PnP RPGs out there... possibly the most interesting. Nothing glittery about these vampires.
I am in the same boat you are. I'm not playing anything right now, and nothing looks all that interesting. I look at what is coming, and the most interesting of them is Guild Wars 2, but even that is a far, far cry from a sandbox game I would ultimately like to play. I feel like we are in the dark ages of gaming. Everything is just revamps of old ideas, and in the case of MMO games, they have gone backwards toward simplicity rather than forward towards the virtual worlds people dreamed of making years ago.
I have tried anything that comes out and claims to be a sandbox or even sandbox hybrid, and none of them measure up. Most are made by indie developers that simply cannot pull off a fully functional expression of their goals. Perhaps someone should be working on better tools for making games so the art development isn't so inaccessible and expensive. Maybe in another 5-10 years we will have AI in software that will make this stuff easier to build.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Take your space Barbies and shove them somewhere where the sun doesnt shine, CCP followed this stupid path and it lead to the core game being neglected and ultimately to people losing thier jobs.
I dont understand when people "cant connect" to it being a spaceship game, do you also play Grand Turismo and wish you a little man walking around the track to? Its like me going and playing WoW and wanting to be a spaceship.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
I said it before WiS/Avatar isnt needed in EvE. Looks like CCP taken the troll bait.
It has been an ongoing argument...er...discussion, since Ambulation was first mentioned. Generally speaking, it has gone nowhere with the folks that want that equivalent of Space Barbie and Ken dolls to play with.
With all there is to do in EVE . . . people want to be able to login to a 3D chatroom and chat.
Some people play EVE to play EVE...and do quite fine with any socializing they wish to do.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
@ the folks calling it "space barbies": As a 5 year EvE veterean I'm in the space barbie camp. Ever since I heard of WiS/Ambulation I've been excited. BUT, not at the expense of FiS. The evolution of EvE allows for WiS becoming reality at some point but not at the expense of the core gameplay. I've been wardec'd and station camped before with other corp mates being stuck there too. Wouldn't mind heading to the corp hanger and playing a game of poker instead of heading to FullTilt and playing there while staying logged in. Not the best example but there are many scenarios where WiS has it's potential. Again, not at the expense of FiS which is why I'm happy to hear CCP's supposed direction refocus. We'll see.
Great write up and I agree. My avatar has a smokin hot ass and I'd like to see more of it in the future
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
I'll ignore your vapid, childish jab, and just say that it's not important whether you understand my position or not. Apparently it's a popular enough opinion that CCP wants to make changes to address people who feel like I do. They know it's holding back a lot of subscriptions.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Imho, there's no real place for avatar-based gameplay in EvE. Sure, stuff like poker, or chess might be fun things to do, but CCP won't ever implement any combat-stuff in stations. They mentioned removing boosters from the normal market and move them to a black-market that then takes place in stations (Incarna/WiS), but that part is so small, that it's not worth the work actually.
StarTrek Online had both, ground-combat and space-combat and so did SWG and now SWTOR, but it just doesn't fit into EvE, where you only survive death because of the POD you're in when dying in your ship. If you'd get killed in WiS, then we'd be talking about permadeath. The whole story of EvE would need a complete overhaul, much like the NGE of SWG and we know where this one was going...
Additionally, with the skill-system of EvE, how do you think about having to train another few years of skills for your out-of-POD gameplay? No, sir, it simply doesn't match with EvE too well.
EvE has tons of potential even without WiS being added, and CCP should actually start working on the many suggestions surrounding factional warfare, wormholes and a revamp of some other stuff like sovereignity and true-sec, instead of useless avatars.
Your avatar isn't a ship you fly but little picture you see at character sheet(not counting recent expansion). But most importantly, your 'avatar' is what you do, not how you look.
There were times, when RPG games had no 'avatars', they even had no graphics, there were times when RPG games were not even played on computers. Were they less RPG games just because you could not watch your 'avatar' running around?
The appearance of your avatar is non-factor. I do understand your point, however I think there is a point of view you are overlooking or did not think about.
EVE Online is more RPG game than any other just because there is simply not possible not to role play. How so? Because EVE Online is a true virtual world.
The difference though is, that in usual RPG games you are a main character, a hero pursuing an epic adventure, not so much in EVE though. There you take a part as anonymous individual, absolutely nameless and unimportant. You are one of the thousands that together create a virtual world you 'live' in. That is how sandbox works - no scripted adventure, no driven content.
In EVE, you are writing your own story.
That is where I believe your true immersion breaker is. Not the lack of avatar, but lack of individuality, lack of feeling special and unique.
There is nothing wrong with your perception of RPG games and expectations, your feeling of immersion but I am afraid EVE is not a game for you and most likely never will. Even after they release extension of WiS and more social content will be added, your avatar will still be a 'ship' because anything that matters happens outside of stations, in a vast space of New Eden.
I agree with OP. EVE has some of the greatest potential out there in the MMO market. They've created a seemingly living and breathing economy and the PvP interaction and diplomacy comes in many forms. Some direct and most not so direct, it gives a great boost to the whole simulation feel when someone's ego or ignorance can actually affect ththem and others in major ways.
I too believe that if EVE could take that next step into developing the actual character we are playing it would be awesome. To have an avatar to walk around as and be able to meet other capsuleers would be tops also. The problem is simply put the playerbase, they are just too closed minded at this point. They feel that any attempt to expand on the EVE universe through Incarna or even DUST514 will be detrimental to the game.
They are just too happy being stuck in ships the entire time. I mean seriously wtf is the point in us creating a look ok the first place. Why do I need to pick boots and pants when all anyone will.see is from the chest up. These are the flaws that EVE has. Yes it pulls off the space simulation and the conflict of progression like no other, but it is also lacking and is starting to feel that sting of believe it or not.. Not being big enough, cramped in a ship or station. Never having the chance to actually interact with others outside of getting a point and web on a buddy as a joke.
I put this blame on both CCP and the EVE playerbase. CCP for being a success that became corupted and blind by its own achivements. They began to feel that they could say and do whatever and if the players don't like so be it. They also IMO lied to a lot of us. They gave the impression that implementations such as Incarna were on track when they were anything but truthful about the matter.
I put blame on the playerbase for being too stuborn and big cry babies over things that were actually needed to help evolve EVE into something more than just a space diplomacy shooter. The possibility for EVE to create a universe that lives just as the Star Wars or Star Trek do was/is there. But without the proper support from CCP keeping it real and the players not being an hinderence to progress it will be very hard for EVE to reach its greatest potential. It sucks to see your ideal system so close you taste it, but when you reach out for flavor you realize the recipe is still light years away..
It's not gonna be too long before someone takes what EVE has and actually does it better. Just takes that developer with the right vision..
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
if CCP want full body avatars in EvE they should make a solid plan not just a room and item shop
BestSigEver :P
Even Rome wasn't build in a day...
They do want and it will be in EVE one day just it takes time and will be implemented in small iterations.
CCP just put all space barbie plans "on hold, indefinitely" because it actually cost them subscriptions, and as a result people have lost jobs. Far from being a "popular" opinion events over the last few months have proven otherwise.
Want 3D chat rooms? Try that IMVU thing.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.