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This could change the genre

MMOtoGOMMOtoGO Member Posts: 630

If 2.0 can successfully renew FFXIV, this may change the perception that MMO's that fail can't truly do a turnaround.  I was reading though the e-mail about what they're doing, and it's interesting.

Consider this: I never even considered buying FFXIV even before it's launch failure.  Now, due to it's constant attention (and scrutiny) I almost want to try it w/ 2.0 to see what all the noise is about.  

Is it possible that this game still can be a huge success after floundering for so long?  It's possible, and this may change our perception about a failed launch... perhaps gamers will be less inclined to shun a game simply because it had a rough start.

Edit: Because I can't type

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Comments

  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    If, if, if.

    2.0 is GREATER than a year away.  I refuse to further hypothesize about a game that they are expecting people to pay for with these changes incoming.  

    The problem with forecasting success at this point is determining where the 2.0 changes fall.  There are a NUMBER of good MMO prospects coming out.  Not to forget there are major MMO's in development that haven't been really been seen since their announcement.  I think that FFXIV has a following but it'll never be large enough outside of Japan to put it anywhere in the Top 10.

  • MMOtoGOMMOtoGO Member Posts: 630

    Originally posted by Ikeda

    If, if, if.

    2.0 is GREATER than a year away.  I refuse to further hypothesize about a game that they are expecting people to pay for with these changes incoming.  

    The problem with forecasting success at this point is determining where the 2.0 changes fall.  There are a NUMBER of good MMO prospects coming out.  Not to forget there are major MMO's in development that haven't been really been seen since their announcement.  I think that FFXIV has a following but it'll never be large enough outside of Japan to put it anywhere in the Top 10.

    Good points.  I actually have no idea how the game plays, since when it launched I couldn't even run the 'benchmark'.  I've never seen this much energy put toward a game that has performed this poorly.  Time will tell if this pays off or crashes and burns.

  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 958

    First off, its FFXIV not FFIV. Second this game has a few RARE exceptions in its favor. First it has a very sucessful previous game with a large fanbase who is willing to wait it out. Next it is backed by one of the biggest companys on the planet Square Enix who let people play it for free for over a year now (most companys cant do this or would want to) Finally it has a second release, the PS3 version never came out and it can get a MUCH bigger group of people, mainly in japan. They basically get to re-promote and re-release the game because they have another console to put it on (and the PC version atm needs you to have a higher end PC to run it decently as is)

  • MMOtoGOMMOtoGO Member Posts: 630

    Originally posted by zanfire

    First off, its FFXIV not FFIV. Second this game has a few RARE exceptions in its favor. First it has a very sucessful previous game with a large fanbase who is willing to wait it out. Next it is backed by one of the biggest companys on the planet Square Enix who let people play it for free for over a year now (most companys cant do this or would want to) Finally it has a second release, the PS3 version never came out and it can get a MUCH bigger group of people, mainly in japan. They basically get to re-promote and re-release the game because they have another console to put it on (and the PC version atm needs you to have a higher end PC to run it decently as is)

    Fixed the original post.  Yeah, we're not talking about FFIV LOL.  Good points here.  If 2.0 does renew hype about Final Fantasy, I'm just wondering if other studios will think they can catch lightning in the bottle and revamp their games.

  • popinjaypopinjay Member Posts: 6,539

    It's possible but no one knows.


    It's still highly unlikely that anyone other than Square Enix could have done this for several reasons:


    1. FFXIV was to be (is?) their flagship mmo for the next ten years. This was going to replace FFXI slowly as that game phased down and got older in the tooth. It still has a good base now but that won't last as all things eventually wind down. Without reclaiming FFXIV they would have been in trouble.


    2. Money. Most companies do not have the money SE had to totally revamp a game like this. They simply have a set budget and when those funds are gone, the game is pushed out and it sinks or swims. They don't continue to put millions more into it in hopes that they can fix it. No company definitely wouldn't consider not charging players for over a year while continuing to sink more money in the game either.


    3. The NA market wasn't the main market for FFXIV. SE is thinking about China and when they open there (which it hasn't been released yet) and the potential subs coming out of that. Most of these other Western games made for a Western market wouldn't be doing that and would go bankrupt trying to. If a game like Tabula Rasa made for a Western audience was as bad as FFXIV was and tried to do the same thing, it wouldn't work because they've already blown the game's chances with the people they were trying to capture. FFXIV wasn't intended to monopolize or focus heavily on Westerners.. we're just a side benefit to it's Japanese and later Chinese subs.

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059

    Seriously doubt it.  No matter how good 2.0 is, it's like FFXIV won't recover from such a horrible launch.  AoC also turned around from a pretty horrid launch too, but failed to get most of their lost subscribers back and new people.  The only thing that might renew interest is a move to completely F2P (AoC as an example again, EQ2, LOTRO, DDO, etc.), but it's going to be a while before they go that route seeing as they are bringing back subscription fees soon.

    Personally I feel the game still needs a lot of work beyond what they are adding and changing in 2.0 anyway, though it's a step in the right direction as were the last few patches.

  • Zookz1Zookz1 Member Posts: 629

    The amount of hype that the 2.0 announcement generated is almost adorable, but I don't think this game will ever fully recover from what happened at launch. I have doubts that it will reach XI's level of success. XIV faces a relevance problem; by 2013 I will have moved, had my first child, started a new job, and will have a new car. There will be quite a few new MMO's out by then, and by that point I will stop caring what condition the game is in.

    I'm sure they'll bring people back, but I think huge success is a bit of a stretch.

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371

    Originally posted by Zookz1

    The amount of hype that the 2.0 announcement generated is almost adorable, but I don't think this game will ever fully recover from what happened at launch. I have doubts that it will reach XI's level of success. XIV faces a relevance problem; by 2013 I will have moved, had my first child, started a new job, and will have a new car. There will be quite a few new MMO's out by then, and by that point I will stop caring what condition the game is in.

    I'm sure they'll bring people back, but I think huge success is a bit of a stretch.

    I think you underestimate the amount of people wanting a good MMO that can offer an amazing journey the way XI did. If they can make this game like XI, I will go back as many people I know who adored XI but hated XIV. They ve all said they ll go back right away if they here it s XI 2.0 not XIV 2.0. I honestly think it will be XI 2.0 and will attract a very large following when 2.0 is out for a bit.

    Name one company that has done this, I can t think of one, except maybe ones that shut down and re opened under another company.

    Not defending XIV, because it s a turd even today, but if they can pull it off, I think alot of people will flock to it.

  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048

    Dungeons and Dragons Online...

    Simply put, that game has already done it. Going from P2P to F2P has brought on a large boost to the game and revived a game that was about dieing. The issue is, in the environment today, its very hard to 'revive' a game thats been pushed into a ditch. It can work, but its not very likely it will succeed with so many options available. It takes a very large change to get people to find interest, most often a F2P option is the best way to build 'interest' to even attempt at a game. 

    A large change would likely make FF14 the first game p2p to manage to redeem itself if it works, but chances are people won't spend a dime to 'try' it out. Its a shame really though. If World of Warcraft came out today in its original launch state, its not very likely it would have half the success it does today, even having years to develop itself. It might be relatively popular, but its only due to its company that it likely would even gather much interest and enough dedicated players to succeed. Redemption in the MMO market of today is just a lot less forgiving, which is a sad thing really. I'm sure there have been plenty of games that held far more potential then Wow that were released that just faultered due to the fact there is just so much competition they can't manage to work their way up in the market and improve.

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,229

    One block against new players is the fact that old players have been playing for over a year.  They are top level and have pretty much discovered everything there is to find in the world.  This changes the game from one of discovering how things work to one of catching up.  That can be partially alleviated by putting up new servers.

  • ZizouXZizouX Member Posts: 670

    When 2.0 comes out, you will have new zones, new quests, new classes.....

     

    I'm purposefully not leveling up all classes to 50 because I want to re-experience the 1-50 journey.  I don't think there's going to be any advantage of old players over new players in 2.0 because the game is going to be as new to us as it will be to new players.  The only difference is that we'll have multiple 50's to fill roles in parties, but those are only for L50 parties.

     

    I personally think new players are going to have a "better experience" in 2.0 because they will be experiencing the new content using different classes, whereas someone like me with 3-4 R50s can't experience the new stuff as Marauder or Lancer.. i'll have to pick a class i might not like as much.

     

    All in all, i'm really happy with the changes and can't wait for 2.0..... i use a controller now, but i might switch back to my G13 keypad, since it's going to be like a traditional mmo with a lot of customization and really more responsive.....

  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,040

    If they had 20 or 30 repeatable quests for level 21 to 31 that gave 1500+ exper they might survive untill 2.0

  • yaminsuxyaminsux Member UncommonPosts: 973

    I went to sample 1.19 before they started charging ppl. To my horror they blocked my account for "suspicious activity". Now I cant reclaim it as i'm greeted by automated messages everytime I emailed for support.

     

    SIgh. Anyone can help?

  • kzaskekzaske Member UncommonPosts: 518

    SE has had over a year to fix the issues, and they are just announcing 2.0 with some large and interesting changes.  If they actually deliver 2.0, and that is a big if, the game will be worth the sub price.  Until then it's not worth the money or time to sub, as I see it.  I honestly feel they should keep it free until 2.0 is ready to go as a single update.

    I don't mean to be a FFXIV troll but I have never felt so ripped off by a game.  What I really want is my money back.

  • NetspookNetspook Member UncommonPosts: 1,583

    Originally posted by popinjay

    It's possible but no one knows.

     



    It's still highly unlikely that anyone other than Square Enix could have done this for several reasons:

     



    1. FFXIV was to be (is?) their flagship mmo for the next ten years. This was going to replace FFXI slowly as that game phased down and got older in the tooth. It still has a good base now but that won't last as all things eventually wind down. Without reclaiming FFXIV they would have been in trouble.

     



    2. Money. Most companies do not have the money SE had to totally revamp a game like this. They simply have a set budget and when those funds are gone, the game is pushed out and it sinks or swims. They don't continue to put millions more into it in hopes that they can fix it. No company definitely wouldn't consider not charging players for over a year while continuing to sink more money in the game either.

     

     



    3. The NA market wasn't the main market for FFXIV. SE is thinking about China and when they open there (which it hasn't been released yet) and the potential subs coming out of that. Most of these other Western games made for a Western market wouldn't be doing that and would go bankrupt trying to. If a game like Tabula Rasa made for a Western audience was as bad as FFXIV was and tried to do the same thing, it wouldn't work because they've already blown the game's chances with the people they were trying to capture. FFXIV wasn't intended to monopolize or focus heavily on Westerners.. we're just a side benefit to it's Japanese and later Chinese subs.

     

    A lot of... facts (??) without the slightest attempt on proving your claims. Much which doesn't make sense, imo.

    #1. Replacing XI? Maybe, but I doubt that's the main reason for making this game. The whole FF franchise is a great success, which alone may be why.

    #2. Money is always an issue. Of course. But this isn't just about saving FFXIV, it's about saving the FF franchise, which the CEO said was greatly damaged by this game. Therefore I assume they feel they have no choice. And how do you know that no other company would consider not charging, while re-developing their game? As far as I know, no other AA title ever have been re-developed after a fiasco release, with the intentions to stay as AA.

    #3. Do you really know that China was the main market? Any company would of course like to become successful in a country with far over a billion inhabitants. But the FF franchise is a worldwide success, and I doubt they singled out China and Japan as main markets. You're saying that FFXIV wasn't intended to focus heavily on westerners - odd considering how much money they've made on the FF franchise in both NA and Europe. Of course they wanted the game to become a success in those regions too.

    OT:

    I doubt this will change the whole MMO industry, OP. Most failures ends up as F2P with a cash shop, and I doubt that's gonna change. It's far cheaper for the devs to do that compared to a complete revamp, which also is risky.

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by MMOtoGO

    If 2.0 can successfully renew FFXIV, this may change the perception that MMO's that fail can't truly do a turnaround.  I was reading though the e-mail about what they're doing, and it's interesting.

    Consider this: I never even considered buying FFXIV even before it's launch failure.  Now, due to it's constant attention (and scrutiny) I almost want to try it w/ 2.0 to see what all the noise is about.  

    Is it possible that this game still can be a huge success after floundering for so long?  It's possible, and this may change our perception about a failed launch... perhaps gamers will be less inclined to shun a game simply because it had a rough start.

    Edit: Because I can't type

    Not really, because its quite apparent that even if they pulled this off, it's because they had so many resources at their disposal and the brand name carried them forward. Some no-name MMO of a no-name studio will not be able to achieve the same results.

    At least they are very much aware of the current situation they are in. Yoshida knows that they need to do everything to get this right, there can be no half-assing.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • popinjaypopinjay Member Posts: 6,539


    Originally posted by Netspook

    A lot of... facts (??) without the slightest attempt on proving your claims. Much which doesn't make sense, imo.#1. Replacing XI? Maybe, but I doubt that's the main reason for making this game. The whole FF franchise is a great success, which alone may be why.Okay, so your "opinion" is that you don't think it's the main reason. Where is YOUR facts just like you asked me?#2. Money is always an issue. Of course. But this isn't just about saving FFXIV, it's about saving the FF franchise, which the CEO said was greatly damaged by this game. Therefore I assume they feel they have no choice. And how do you know that no other company would consider not charging, while re-developing their game? As far as I know, no other AA title ever have been re-developed after a fiasco release, with the intentions to stay as AA.If money is an issue, then it's an issue which is why I pointed it out. Few other companies can afford to do what SE did here, this is why it's not likely to happen again. This wouldn't kill the FF franchise, lol. The FF franchise doesn't exist on mmos, it exists on consoles. Certainly the brand was damaged but in Japan, FF is like Star Wars.. the entire series won't go busto because a mmo failed, lol. This is an odd thing to say /boggle
    #3. Do you really know that China was the main market? Any company would of course like to become successful in a country with far over a billion inhabitants. But the FF franchise is a worldwide success, and I doubt they singled out China and Japan as main markets. You're saying that FFXIV wasn't intended to focus heavily on westerners - odd considering how much money they've made on the FF franchise in both NA and Europe. Of course they wanted the game to become a success in those regions too.Why do I have to "know" China was the main market? Can't that just be my opinion? (this is where you are falling down repeatedly). My OPINION is that the Chinese market was/is the eventual market for FFXIV more than the Western one. That's my opinion.
    There are potentially far morecustomers for a game like this in China than in Western countries and even if the Chinese would be paying the equivalent of $5 for a sub, that's still far more than they'd get due to population sizes. Why do you think a great portion of the game was developed by CHINESE labor which pissed off the Japanese? It's because (my opinion) the Chinese government wanted jobs as a trade-off to access to it's huge population and market.


    Originally posted by MMOtoGO
    Is it possible that this game still can be a huge success after floundering for so long?
    I reposted the OP's question because I think you're confused as to what type of thread this is. He's asking for people's opinions. I gave mine. Given that he's asking for opinions they make perfect sense.

    Your position is strange because it's like Person A asking Person B "Do you think this burger will sell?" and then Person C says "Person B, your facts (?) don't make any sense because I think it tastes this way. Where's your proof?" This is the problem with your critique of my opinions.


    I'll be sure to post facts properly in another thread when the OP asks for them.

  • channel84channel84 Member UncommonPosts: 585

    I'll only check it out once 2.0 hit and not before ^^

    Sure hope they can deliver

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    I've always been highly interested in a good, fun Final Fantasy MMORPG.

    I tried FFXI and didn't find what I was looking for.

    I kept clear of FFXIV to take a "wait and see" approach, which turned out to be a smart move.

     

    I have read all the released info on 2.0, and if SE can pull it off, I will seriously consider giving FFXIV a shot.

    I can imagine there are many out there who agree with the above.

     

  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,040

    Originally posted by yaminsux

    I went to sample 1.19 before they started charging ppl. To my horror they blocked my account for "suspicious activity". Now I cant reclaim it as i'm greeted by automated messages everytime I emailed for support.

     

    SIgh. Anyone can help?

     They should have sent you an email to the address you registered the account with. It will have a PW reset link and from there you shouldn't have any further trouble with logging in.

  • snapfusionsnapfusion Member Posts: 954

    Originally posted by Magnum2103

    Seriously doubt it.  No matter how good 2.0 is, it's like FFXIV won't recover from such a horrible launch.  AoC also turned around from a pretty horrid launch too, but failed to get most of their lost subscribers back and new people.  The only thing that might renew interest is a move to completely F2P (AoC as an example again, EQ2, LOTRO, DDO, etc.), but it's going to be a while before they go that route seeing as they are bringing back subscription fees soon.

    Personally I feel the game still needs a lot of work beyond what they are adding and changing in 2.0 anyway, though it's a step in the right direction as were the last few patches.

    I hate to break it to you, F2P does not fix broken games.  It temporarily renews intrest in failed P2P games.  If  I hear "make it F2P and it will be a success" one more time I'm going to puke.

  • NetspookNetspook Member UncommonPosts: 1,583

    Originally posted by popinjay

     




    Originally posted by Netspook



    A lot of... facts (??) without the slightest attempt on proving your claims. Much which doesn't make sense, imo.

     

     

    #1. Replacing XI? Maybe, but I doubt that's the main reason for making this game. The whole FF franchise is a great success, which alone may be why.Okay, so your "opinion" is that you don't think it's the main reason. Where is YOUR facts just like you asked me?

    #2. Money is always an issue. Of course. But this isn't just about saving FFXIV, it's about saving the FF franchise, which the CEO said was greatly damaged by this game. Therefore I assume they feel they have no choice. And how do you know that no other company would consider not charging, while re-developing their game? As far as I know, no other AA title ever have been re-developed after a fiasco release, with the intentions to stay as AA.If money is an issue, then it's an issue which is why I pointed it out. Few other companies can afford to do what SE did here, this is why it's not likely to happen again. This wouldn't kill the FF franchise, lol. The FF franchise doesn't exist on mmos, it exists on consoles. Certainly the brand was damaged but in Japan, FF is like Star Wars.. the entire series won't go busto because a mmo failed, lol. This is an odd thing to say /boggle



    #3. Do you really know that China was the main market? Any company would of course like to become successful in a country with far over a billion inhabitants. But the FF franchise is a worldwide success, and I doubt they singled out China and Japan as main markets. You're saying that FFXIV wasn't intended to focus heavily on westerners - odd considering how much money they've made on the FF franchise in both NA and Europe. Of course they wanted the game to become a success in those regions too.Why do I have to "know" China was the main market? Can't that just be my opinion? (this is where you are falling down repeatedly). My OPINION is that the Chinese market was/is the eventual market for FFXIV more than the Western one. That's my opinion.



    There are potentially far morecustomers for a game like this in China than in Western countries and even if the Chinese would be paying the equivalent of $5 for a sub, that's still far more than they'd get due to population sizes. Why do you think a great portion of the game was developed by CHINESE labor which pissed off the Japanese? It's because (my opinion) the Chinese government wanted jobs as a trade-off to access to it's huge population and market.

     






    Originally posted by MMOtoGO

    Is it possible that this game still can be a huge success after floundering for so long?





    I reposted the OP's question because I think you're confused as to what type of thread this is. He's asking for people's opinions. I gave mine. Given that he's asking for opinions they make perfect sense.

     

     

    Your position is strange because it's like Person A asking Person B "Do you think this burger will sell?" and then Person C says "Person B, your facts (?) don't make any sense because I think it tastes this way. Where's your proof?" This is the problem with your critique of my opinions.

     

     

     



    I'll be sure to post facts properly in another thread when the OP asks for them.

     

    My post is full of words like "maybe", "I doubt", "imo", "I assume", etc. Yours isn't. It's quite clear that I was stating opinions - not so clear on your part. Read again my part which you quote with your question "where is YOUR facts" - anyone should understand that there were no facts there. Well, except from calling the franchise "a great success", which is proven by the sales figures. Google is your friend if you wanna check that further, but you already know this.

    Edit:

    You say "The FF franchise doesn't exist on mmos, it exists on consoles.". Really? Impossible to take anything from you seriously after that, considering you mentioned FFXI yourself.

    @ BadSpock

    Imo, the "wait and see" approach is always wise, especially when it comes to hyped games. Still, as I said in another thread, I recommend to buy the game now. Simply because it's almost free (I paid 6 euros), and no one know what the price will be when it's re-released. And they've promised a new trial period after 2.0, so you won't miss out on that.

  • popinjaypopinjay Member Posts: 6,539


    Originally posted by Netspook

     
    My post is full of words like "maybe", "I doubt", "imo", "I assume", etc. Yours isn't.

    It's quite clear that I was stating opinions - not so clear on your part. Read again my part which you quote with your question "where is YOUR facts" - anyone should understand that there were no facts there. Well, except from calling the franchise "a great success", which is proven by the sales figures. Google is your friend if you wanna check that further, but you already know this.

    Edit:
    You say "The FF franchise doesn't exist on mmos, it exists on consoles.". Really? Impossible to take anything from you seriously after that, considering you mentioned FFXI yourself.


    So a post has to be "full" of inarticulate indecisions to be considered an opinion? I'll file that one away in case I think you'll read more.


    It "appears" that you cannot tell when someone is presenting fact vs opinion, or I "doubt" they present it in the way you like.. that's unfortunate but meh.. that's life really. Sometimes instead of trying to read between the lines as you "appear" to be doing, just read the lines and you'll find it more helpful.

    Those were my opinions based on what I see after playing and reading FFXIV. There.. that should clear it up.


    And no, (watch this:) it's a FACT that the Final Fantasy franchise (first released in December 18, 1987) does NOT depend on the success or failure of one mmo with it's name anymore than Star Wars is now going to die because SWG is closing.

    FFXI did not make the Final Fantasy name a household word; it was the other way around. The console games like FF7 made the mmo possible and why people went to play it.


    I'm not sure what your problem or point with FFXI is. Could you make it a little more clear for me?


    Edit: To show how "damaged" the FF brand really is, look no futher than this article:

    Final Fantasy Type-0 Sells Nearly 500K In Opening Japanese Weekend

  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,040

     




    Originally posted by popinjay

     

    FFXI did not make the Final Fantasy name a household word; it was the other way around. The console games like FF7 made the mmo possible and why people went to play it.

     

     

     

    Tifa to the rescue! Noteworthy, the Materia additions in FF14. Right now it's just stat pups but what they can do with materia is unlimited. A superfied, materia, Tifa from the sky summon for Pugalists. OoOooOo.

    No Yoda, not even you could save SWG but Tifa? Well, that's another matter all together.

     

  • kakasakikakasaki Member UncommonPosts: 1,205

    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Originally posted by Magnum2103

    Seriously doubt it.  No matter how good 2.0 is, it's like FFXIV won't recover from such a horrible launch.  AoC also turned around from a pretty horrid launch too, but failed to get most of their lost subscribers back and new people.  The only thing that might renew interest is a move to completely F2P (AoC as an example again, EQ2, LOTRO, DDO, etc.), but it's going to be a while before they go that route seeing as they are bringing back subscription fees soon.

    Personally I feel the game still needs a lot of work beyond what they are adding and changing in 2.0 anyway, though it's a step in the right direction as were the last few patches.

    I hate to break it to you, F2P does not fix broken games.  It temporarily renews intrest in failed P2P games.  If  I hear "make it F2P and it will be a success" one more time I'm going to puke.

    Could not agree more... image

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

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