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My concerns with SWTOR :(

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  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by gilgamesh9

    Originally posted by gobla

    I have to ask, how exactly does voice acting kill a MMO?

    I've heard multiple times how voice acting is supposed to be bad but I've yet to hear about an actual reason why this is the case. Thus far it seems more like complaining that adding colour killed good movies.....

    Try making an avatar that you envision being a badass like Samuel Jackson and then recoil in horror that the male voice is high pitched and whiny.

    Then try to envision an avatar being a badass with a voice that isn't high pitched and whiny at all, like for example you'll find in a hell of a lot of voiced singleplayer games. Basically, if things weren't an issue with VO in singleplayer games, then why would they be an issue with VO in MMO's image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by gilgamesh9


    Originally posted by gobla

    I have to ask, how exactly does voice acting kill a MMO?

    I've heard multiple times how voice acting is supposed to be bad but I've yet to hear about an actual reason why this is the case. Thus far it seems more like complaining that adding colour killed good movies.....

    Try making an avatar that you envision being a badass like Samuel Jackson and then recoil in horror that the male voice is high pitched and whiny.

    Then try to envision an avatar being a badass with a voice that isn't high pitched and whiny at all, like for example you'll find in a hell of a lot of voiced singleplayer games. Basically, if things weren't an issue with VO in singleplayer games, then why would they be an issue with VO in MMO's image

     

    The issue here stems from SWTOR having voice-acting as THE FEATURE advertised all over the place. Its not a problem per se but can be one because of the specific marketing.

    If I ask someone what they know about SWTOR, the first thing that comes up is the full VO and dialogue-wheels.

     

    Don't get me wrong I don't actually think that it will "kill" an MMO, but I myself do not enjoy voiced PCs in MMOs (beyond combat sounds). It detatches me from the toon even more than fedex quests. I'm sort of playing the devils advocate here.

    Its really a question of how you experience different games and what you expect from certain games. For example I enjoy MassEffect with its VO and dialogue, but I am playing that game alone, in my couch. I want to be entertained in the sense that I want to experience the story the writers envisioned. 

     

    However if I go into an MMORPG, I tend to prefer to experience -my- story. In the sense that I like to carve my own path.

    This is pretty much a thread I see running for all multiplayer experiences where I have to cooperate with others. I want to feel like -I- am cooperating in this game, not my toon. If Im running a NWN module with friends, I'd rather not have my toon take over and have a conversation with NPCs.

     

    I have nothing against voiced NPCs or cinematics in MMOs though, I have a problem with loosing control over my toon because a writer already thought up something for me to say.

    If i would compare it to something, it would be like playing a PnP RPG adventure, but instead of RPing I could only choose from pre-written responses in the adventure booklet.

     

    I guess its really between being told a story/experiencing it, or telling your own story/interacting with it. Both are fine, I just look for the later in MMOs.

    image
  • czekoskwigelczekoskwigel Member Posts: 458

    Originally posted by AdamTM

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick


    Originally posted by gilgamesh9


    Originally posted by gobla

    I have to ask, how exactly does voice acting kill a MMO?

    I've heard multiple times how voice acting is supposed to be bad but I've yet to hear about an actual reason why this is the case. Thus far it seems more like complaining that adding colour killed good movies.....

    Try making an avatar that you envision being a badass like Samuel Jackson and then recoil in horror that the male voice is high pitched and whiny.

    Then try to envision an avatar being a badass with a voice that isn't high pitched and whiny at all, like for example you'll find in a hell of a lot of voiced singleplayer games. Basically, if things weren't an issue with VO in singleplayer games, then why would they be an issue with VO in MMO's image

     

    The issue here stems from SWTOR having voice-acting as THE FEATURE advertised all over the place. Its not a problem per se but can be one because of the specific marketing.

    If I ask someone what they know about SWTOR, the first thing that comes up is the full VO and dialogue-wheels.

     

    Don't get me wrong I don't actually think that it will "kill" an MMO, but I myself do not enjoy voiced PCs in MMOs (beyond combat sounds). It detatches me from the toon even more than fedex quests. I'm sort of playing the devils advocate here.

    Its really a question of how you experience different games and what you expect from certain games. For example I enjoy MassEffect with its VO and dialogue, but I am playing that game alone, in my couch. I want to be entertained in the sense that I want to experience the story the writers envisioned. 

     

    However if I go into an MMORPG, I tend to prefer to experience -my- story. In the sense that I like to carve my own path.

    This is pretty much a thread I see running for all multiplayer experiences where I have to cooperate with others. I want to feel like -I- am cooperating in this game, not my toon. If Im running a NWN module with friends, I'd rather not have my toon take over and have a conversation with NPCs.

     

    I have nothing against voiced NPCs or cinematics in MMOs though, I have a problem with loosing control over my toon because a writer already thought up something for me to say.

    If i would compare it to something, it would be like playing a PnP RPG adventure, but instead of RPing I could only choose from pre-written responses in the adventure booklet.

     

    I guess its really between being told a story/experiencing it, or telling your own story/interacting with it. Both are fine, I just look for the later in MMOs.

    It's not BioWare pushing voice over as THE FEATURE, it's people like you claiming it is, and then picking up on it and spreading the fallacy further.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376




    It's not BioWare pushing voice over as THE FEATURE, it's people like you claiming it is, and then picking up on it and spreading the fallacy further.

     
    Of course BioWare doesn't push VO, they are the dev, EA does the marketing, not BW.

    For "people like me", I don't know, its what I feel is prominent in the marketing and advertisement.
    It must have started somewhere, like you said a lot of other people also got this impression.

    Or are you suggesting that I, by myself no less, am responsible for how the VO is focused in discussions in this topic all over every gaming outlet/forum?

    image
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,010

    1) Developers are socially screwed up, very close minded and they think inside a box.

    2) They probably sit in the same room as they are playing 5 mans. So it's easy to tell the person next to them " wait a minute, I'm reading something ".

    3) They already know all the features.

    4) They know if they stop for some reason the guy sitting next to them is not gonna quit.

    In my opinion This is an MMO not a single player game. An MMO can only survive long term if THE PLAYER CAN DO WHAT HE FEELS, WHEN HE FEELS. More features takes away from that !

    A short list of real mmo's :

    - UO

    - DAOC

    - Vanilla WoW

    - EQ1

    - EQ2

    - Vanguard

    - LOTRO

    - Warhammer ( if they did not screw it up by giving all the exp to scenarios, and so boring )

    - FF11

    - maybe just a few more.

    Sure they are out dated, but what do they have in common ?...." Do what you like, make your own fun, make your own story ". Anything elso will fail as an mmo.

     

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by AdamTM






    It's not BioWare pushing voice over as THE FEATURE, it's people like you claiming it is, and then picking up on it and spreading the fallacy further.



     

    Of course BioWare doesn't push VO, they are the dev, EA does the marketing, not BW.

    For "people like me", I don't know, its what I feel is prominent in the marketing and advertisement.

    It must have started somewhere, like you said a lot of other people also got this impression.

    Or are you suggesting that I, by myself no less, am responsible for how the VO is focused in discussions in this topic all over every gaming outlet/forum?

    It takes notice because VO isn't common for MMO's, and then you'll have people who don't look at things in a broader perspective but narrow focus down.

    The broader perspective is that VO and cutscenes where as you say your character has only the choice to pick his reply from a limited set of answers, that has already been done in AoC at the least and some other MMO's as well. Also, VO won't be only limited to SWTOR, but will also be done in GW2 and TSW.

    I can't imagine people actually preferring the current textbased 'only-possible-to-click-accept-quest-or-abandon-quest' way of questing in MMO's, but I guess it's a matter of preference and personal taste.

     


    Originally posted by page

    In my opinion This is an MMO not a single player game. An MMO can only survive long term if THE PLAYER CAN DO WHAT HE FEELS, WHEN HE FEELS. More features takes away from that !

    A short list of real mmo's :

    - Vanilla WoW

    - EQ1

    - EQ2

    - LOTRO

    - Warhammer ( if they did not screw it up by giving all the exp to scenarios, and so boring )

    Sure they are out dated, but what do they have in common ?...." Do what you like, make your own fun, make your own story ". Anything elso will fail as an mmo.

    I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say, but I regard SWTOR on the same level as WoW and LotrO - and Aion - which is polished, AAA quality MMORPG's with lots of content and themepark features in them.

     

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376

     




    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick




    Originally posted by AdamTM


















    It's not BioWare pushing voice over as THE FEATURE, it's people like you claiming it is, and then picking up on it and spreading the fallacy further.









     



    Of course BioWare doesn't push VO, they are the dev, EA does the marketing, not BW.

    For "people like me", I don't know, its what I feel is prominent in the marketing and advertisement.



    It must have started somewhere, like you said a lot of other people also got this impression.

    Or are you suggesting that I, by myself no less, am responsible for how the VO is focused in discussions in this topic all over every gaming outlet/forum?

    It takes notice because VO isn't common for MMO's, and then you'll have people who don't look at things in a broader perspective but narrow focus down.

    The broader perspective is that VO and cutscenes where as you say your character has only the choice to pick his reply from a limited set of answers, that has already been done in AoC at the least and some other MMO's as well. Also, VO won't be only limited to SWTOR, but will also be done in GW2 and TSW.

    I can't imagine people actually preferring the current textbased 'only-possible-to-click-accept-quest-or-abandon-quest' way of questing in MMO's, but I guess it's a matter of preference and personal taste.

     

    Well it -does- take notice, I never said its the -only- feature. I said its one of the heavily advertised features, a focus point of attention. And a lot of people are focusing on it because it is uncommon. Just like phasing was -the feature- in Wotlk, was it the only one? Certainly not.

     

    I know VO has already been done before, HOWEVER.

    The distinction im specifically making here is VO for NPCs, and VO for -PCs-. TSW has voiced cutscenes, but your toon is a silent protagonist, im unsure about GW2, but i think the toon is actually silent as well. 

    To be absolutely sure we understand eachoter, I do not mind dialogue choices, nor do i mind VO for PCs. I -DO- mind them if they are -both- in a MMO or cooperative RPG setting. 

    In terms of immersion I must identify with my PC, to expand my analogy of PnP a bit more. Dialogue choices are bad as it gets for me, where someone already decided what i want to say, but VO would make it even worse for me. Its like there would be a pre-recording comming with the adventure, where i press a button to let a voice actor read my line in a conversation.

    It so completely removes me from my toon, that the immersion is broken. It gives me the feeling that I only push the character in the game from point A to point B, instead of actually being in the world itself.

    I hope this is understandable that its a valid concern to be had in the games design.

    The distinction lies in being introduced to a problem (classic quest, text or VO) and being an observer of a problem (PC voiced cutscene).

     

    I recently started distinctly disliking games with story -telling-, where the game acts as an interactive movie with interjected gameplay.

     

    I don't know what "people" prefer, but what people prefer isn't always a good thing.

     

    image
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by AdamTM,

    im unsure about GW2, but i think the toon is actually silent as well.

     

    Nope PC is voiced as well.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by AdamTM

     

    The distinction im specifically making here is VO for NPCs, and VO for -PCs-. TSW has voiced cutscenes, but your toon is a silent protagonist, im unsure about GW2, but i think the toon is actually silent as well. 

    In GW2 cutscenes your avatar has a voice as well.

    To be absolutely sure we understand eachoter, I do not mind dialogue choices, nor do i mind VO for PCs. I -DO- mind them if they are -both- in a MMO or cooperative RPG setting. 

    In terms of immersion I must identify with my PC, to expand my analogy of PnP a bit more. Dialogue choices are bad as it gets for me, where someone already decided what i want to say, but VO would make it even worse for me. Its like there would be a pre-recording comming with the adventure, where i press a button to let a voice actor read my line in a conversation.

    So, you dislike having the option of dialogue choices, but you're perfectly ok with not having any choice of dialogue at all in current MMO questing? That's the part what I don't get, or at least guess that that's where the 'different tastes' idea kicks in. Besides that, you must have a problem with immersing yourself in singleplayer games quite often as well, since VO is even more the thing in singleplayer games.

    It so completely removes me from my toon, that the immersion is broken. It gives me the feeling that I only push the character in the game from point A to point B, instead of actually being in the world itself.

    I hope this is understandable that its a valid concern to be had in the games design.

    The distinction lies in being introduced to a problem (classic quest, text or VO) and being an observer of a problem (PC voiced cutscene).

    I understand you. It's just that I don't agree with you, or just find it odd because it's so far from my own gaming preferences and likes.

    As for whether it's a good or bad thing, I don't think that it has much to do with that, a lot of people enjoy VO and cutscenes and even VO for the avatar they're playing, you don't, maybe some more people as well. It's all just a matter of differing tastes and preferences.

     

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • GrahorGrahor Member Posts: 828

    Originally posted by AdamTM

     

    In terms of immersion I must identify with my PC, to expand my analogy of PnP a bit more. Dialogue choices are bad as it gets for me, where someone already decided what i want to say, but VO would make it even worse for me. Its like there would be a pre-recording comming with the adventure, where i press a button to let a voice actor read my line in a conversation.

    It so completely removes me from my toon, that the immersion is broken. It gives me the feeling that I only push the character in the game from point A to point B, instead of actually being in the world itself.

     

    May be I'm stupid, but isn't that's what whole game is? Pushing character from point A to point B? You aren't, you know, in the world itself.

     

    You press the button and thus initiate attack sequence, magic spell, cutscene, or, in this case, dialogue cutscene. I honestly don't see the difference.

     

    On the other hand, I can't get "immersed" in the world of any mmorpg. It's not me who is cutting enemies with the sword - it's the character. I simply push the "attack" button. I'm not a swordsman. I'm not a magic user. I'm a puppetmaster who indeed moves character from point A to point B on the game's path. My choice is to choose what's that B I want to push my character to pursue...

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Grahor

     

     

    May be I'm stupid, but isn't that's what whole game is? Pushing character from point A to point B? You aren't, you know, in the world itself.

     

    You press the button and thus initiate attack sequence, magic spell, cutscene, or, in this case, dialogue cutscene. I honestly don't see the difference.

     

    On the other hand, I can't get "immersed" in the world of any mmorpg. It's not me who is cutting enemies with the sword - it's the character. I simply push the "attack" button. I'm not a swordsman. I'm not a magic user. I'm a puppetmaster who indeed moves character from point A to point B on the game's path. My choice is to choose what's that B I want to push my character to pursue...

    For me it's the TP view, I feel a disconnect in MMO's due to it. The series I truly get immersed in are the TES games, and Fallout 3/NV. Fallen earth is another I've found very immersive. The FPS view helps that a lot for me. Not to say I don't get some immersion from TP MMO's but again there is a disconnect for me and it does feeel as though I'm controlling someone's actions rather than my own.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by AdamTM

     

    The distinction im specifically making here is VO for NPCs, and VO for -PCs-. TSW has voiced cutscenes, but your toon is a silent protagonist, im unsure about GW2, but i think the toon is actually silent as well. 

    In GW2 cutscenes your avatar has a voice as well.

    To be absolutely sure we understand eachoter, I do not mind dialogue choices, nor do i mind VO for PCs. I -DO- mind them if they are -both- in a MMO or cooperative RPG setting. 

    In terms of immersion I must identify with my PC, to expand my analogy of PnP a bit more. Dialogue choices are bad as it gets for me, where someone already decided what i want to say, but VO would make it even worse for me. Its like there would be a pre-recording comming with the adventure, where i press a button to let a voice actor read my line in a conversation.

    So, you dislike having the option of dialogue choices, but you're perfectly ok with not having any choice of dialogue at all in current MMO questing? That's the part what I don't get, or at least guess that that's where the 'different tastes' idea kicks in. Besides that, you must have a problem with immersing yourself in singleplayer games quite often as well, since VO is even more the thing in singleplayer games.

    It so completely removes me from my toon, that the immersion is broken. It gives me the feeling that I only push the character in the game from point A to point B, instead of actually being in the world itself.

    I hope this is understandable that its a valid concern to be had in the games design.

    The distinction lies in being introduced to a problem (classic quest, text or VO) and being an observer of a problem (PC voiced cutscene).

    I understand you. It's just that I don't agree with you, or just find it odd because it's so far from my own gaming preferences and likes.

    As for whether it's a good or bad thing, I don't think that it has much to do with that, a lot of people enjoy VO and cutscenes and even VO for the avatar they're playing, you don't, maybe some more people as well. It's all just a matter of differing tastes and preferences.

     

    I didnt know about GW2, I don't follow it that closely, correction accepted, it looses a few points on my scale.

     

    Like I said in a previous post, i strongly differentiate between singleplayer and multiplayer experience. In a couch-singleplayer game like ME, im totally fine with VO for my character, its like watching a movie and immersing myself in the entertainment that the writers have created. This is a hurdle for games actually imho, because you need to be hooked by the story itself, by the characters, etc.

    For example i love my ME to death (I'm a big sci-fi fan), but i can't play DA:O, I just don't give a shit about the story or characters. In DA:O i feel the story and characters hampers my gameplay, where in ME i feel it compliments it. This is all entirely subjective, but this is exactly what I mean. In a heavily story-driven game you need to actually care for the story, if it doesn't grip you, the game wont either.

    As a counter example I played EYE Divine Cybermancy, I couldn't give a shit about the story or characters, but the gameplay was simply so-much-fun.

     

    In multiplayer games however I expect something different, especially if they are of the RPG variety. I prefer having no dialogue choice in RPGs at all instead of having pre-selected answers, yes.

    When I run PnP campaigns and observe how people play them I often see they do not have in-depth conversations with NPCs at all. Most of the interaction with NPCs boil down to asking for directions, a few questions regarding the problem they are having, etc. They never have a "proper" conversation with NPCs. The drama and "story" comes from the interactions of the PCs with eachoter and their challenges. What I as the DM provide is just a rudimentary framework for the players to move in.

    Its my opinion that this is and should be the strenght of multiplayer games. Setting up a world, a ruleset (akin to physics irl), challenges, and then letting the players do the rest. Sure at points you can funnel the players into an adventure-hook (like a cutscene).

    I find NPCs in MP games of the RPG variety should be a repository of information about the world, fleshing it out, but never leaving their role as such and transforming into "characters". And most importantly your character should be -your- character, not the DMs.

    Its one of the first rules of PnP, the players tell the story.

    image
  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by AdamTM

    I find NPCs in MP games of the RPG variety should be a repository of information about the world, fleshing it out, but never leaving their role as such and transforming into "characters". And most importantly your character should be -your- character, not the DMs.

    Its one of the first rules of PnP, the players tell the story.

    This is not completely true, a good DM doesn't go blank and unprepared without any story at all into a D&D session, he provides the story and framework, he just allows the players freedom to provide their own input to that larger story he's facilitating them.

     

    Computer RPG's are inspired or based on PnP RPG's, but MMORPG's are based on computer RPG's, which throughout the years has gained its own standards and genre specific gameplay features different from PnP RPG's but fitting for computer based RPG's.

     

    As for the rest, I don't believe that the addition of quest based leveling has ever prevented people from telling their own stories, as if that wouldn't be possible in themepark MMO's, so personally I don't think that the addition of VO/cutscenes and choices to quests would suddenly prevent players from being able to tell their stories. As with a lot of things, it's all between the ears, but granted, that's different from 1 person to the next. Me, I have had my share of own stories in EQ, but also in later themepark MMO's incl AoC that used VO/cutscenes and dialogue choices in its questing.

    But we'll see, will be interesting if the complaint of not being able to tell one's own stories will emerge often after launch.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    It's a Bioware story.

    Like in Mass Effect, we may all be playing the Shepard story, but I am playing MY Shepard story, and YOU are playing YOUR Shepard story.

    All the Smuggler's will be playing the Smuggler story, but each Smuggler will be playing their own Smuggler story.

    Get it?

    It's going to be very difficult to find someone else on your server who has made the exact same choices and decisions all long the story/progression path.

     

  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by AdamTM



    I find NPCs in MP games of the RPG variety should be a repository of information about the world, fleshing it out, but never leaving their role as such and transforming into "characters". And most importantly your character should be -your- character, not the DMs.

    Its one of the first rules of PnP, the players tell the story.

    This is not completely true, a good DM doesn't go blank and unprepared without any story at all into a D&D session, he provides the story and framework, he just allows the players freedom to provide their own input to that larger story he's facilitating them.

     

    Computer RPG's are inspired or based on PnP RPG's, but MMORPG's are based on computer RPG's, which throughout the years has gained its own standards and genre specific gameplay features different from PnP RPG's but fitting for computer based RPG's.

     

    As for the rest, I don't believe that the addition of quest based leveling has ever prevented people from telling their own stories, as if that wouldn't be possible in themepark MMO's, so personally I don't think that the addition of VO/cutscenes and choices to quests would suddenly prevent players from being able to tell their stories. As with a lot of things, it's all between the ears, but granted, that's different from 1 person to the next. Me, I have had my share of own stories in EQ, but also in later themepark MMO's incl AoC that used VO/cutscenes and dialogue choices in its questing.

    But we'll see, will be interesting if the complaint of not being able to tell one's own stories will emerge often after launch.

     

    I'm not saying -no story- at all in PnP, its a framework. But i never write a PnP adventure to be story-DRIVEN. I never decide that my players need to go to the tavern to talk to Grom Hellscreems ghost in order to progress or experience the events. The key is to let the players unfold the events instead of unfolding the events for them.

     

    I also do not think that telling your own story in a quest based leveling system is -impossible- or that it stops it dead in its tracks. What I'm saying instead is that it makes it -harder-.

    It becomes a game of pretend. I pretend to play my own story while i know that i actually don't.

     

    I also do not think that players will complain in SWTOR, my playstyle is not everyones cup of tea. I'm more raising a general game design concern than a specific concern towards TOR.

    image
  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    It's a Bioware story.

    Like in Mass Effect, we may all be playing the Shepard story, but I am playing MY Shepard story, and YOU are playing YOUR Shepard story.

    All the Smuggler's will be playing the Smuggler story, but each Smuggler will be playing their own Smuggler story.

    Get it?

    It's going to be very difficult to find someone else on your server who has made the exact same choices and decisions all long the story/progression path.

     

    Branching RPG stories, like BW's, remind me of those old "choose your own adventure" books.  Each time you read the book, the story can have different twists and turns, but it is ultimately limited to the amount of pages in the book.  This is how branching RPG stories work as well.  You can play them out in different ways, but they are limited to the scripts that were pre-written for the game.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Branching RPG stories, like BW's, remind me of those old "choose your own adventure" books.  Each time you read the book, the story can have different twists and turns, but it is ultimately limited to the amount of pages in the book.  This is how branching RPG stories work as well.  You can play them out in different ways, but they are limited to the scripts that were pre-written for the game.

    ? Sorry, I don't know if you've been playing a lot of singleplayer games, but branching dialogues and quests have been possible and done in quite a number of singleplayer games. But maybe you've been stuck in the era of 'choose your own adventure' books, which iirc were popular in a time that computergames weren't as mainstream and widespread as they are today.

    However, the computergame industry has taken the concept of branched questing and dialogues and flown with it successfully since many years now.

    Try to keep track of gameplay trends in computergaming once in a while, is what I'd like to suggest you image

     

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • w4rbytezw4rbytez Member Posts: 17

    Originally posted by plaxidia

     




    Originally posted by page

     

    There are two issues that really haunt me :

    1) Chain Quest- THIS ISSUE IS NEVER EVER DISCUSSED. This issue kills mmo grouping to the max. Take part one to do part two. I'm now playing Rift.  For now I like the game.  It's ALL ABOUT CHAIN QUEST.  Both my friend and I are playing together and we realized we have to match every quest one for one to play together.  No one can play with us because of chain quest.  We tried to play with others, and it most always fails.  Many people don't like Rift, they find it boring. BUT no one ever thinks deeply as to why they don't like it......I know why !.....It's a solo game, unless you max level !

    Joe is on quest 146 and Bob is on quest 151.  Joe can't play with Bob.  As time goes on, ten days in Bob quits because the game is boring.  Never realizing why !

    I hate to use Vanilla WoW as an example. It was popular because Joe and Bob can take quest a,b,c,d,e,f,g and they can play together Or take a day off and continue playing. Joe and Bob can have a meaningful Guild, and a healthy friends list.

    Making a dungeon finder, Rift invasions, or PvP battle grounds DOES NOT CUT IT....They are mini games, simple as that !

     

    2) Voice acting- This was my concern with SWTOR from the start. Yes, it makes the game personal. Many will love it. Many will not !......At first I would think, maybe it's just me, its still in pre-release.  But reviews and leaks are confirming my concern.

    Voice acting and personal instancing can kill an mmo. The real Star Wars fans will love it, the others will find it boring and quit. Just like Star Trek.



     



    Your chain quest argument is simply this.. People need to stop caring only about themselves.. If people really want to play an MMO they have to be willing to take a step backwards in their quest line and help others progress.. Too many people have developed the mindset that they need to 1. race to endgame and 2. only concern themselves with their own chars progression.. If people would stop and help someone move through the quest line even if it means taking a step or two backwards to get someone else up to where you are there would be far more groups going, far more social interaction and far less boredom.. IMO

    The best MMO is a Communcal MMO. Everyone always talks about wanting to be "part of something" in an RPG, so grab the bull by the horns and save the universe together!

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Branching RPG stories, like BW's, remind me of those old "choose your own adventure" books.  Each time you read the book, the story can have different twists and turns, but it is ultimately limited to the amount of pages in the book.  This is how branching RPG stories work as well.  You can play them out in different ways, but they are limited to the scripts that were pre-written for the game.

    ? Sorry, I don't know if you've been playing a lot of singleplayer games, but branching dialogues and quests have been possible and done in quite a number of singleplayer games. But maybe you've been stuck in the era of 'choose your own adventure' books, which iirc were popular in a time that computergames weren't as mainstream and widespread as they are today.

    However, the computergame industry has taken the concept of branched questing and dialogues and flown with it successfully since many years now.

    Try to keep track of gameplay trends in computergaming once in a while, is what I'd like to suggest you image

     

    LOL of course they are possible and of course I have played SP branching story games.  I think you misunderstood my post.  I was only saying that branching storylines are great in that they allow to play out the story different each time, BUT they are limited by the total amount of content in the game.

    I just brought up the old choose your own adventure books because it provides a very tangible way to "see" that limit (the number of pages).  In video games, the limit is much more ephemeral.  It is simply the total amount of pre-written scripts in the game.  This isn't something you can easily conceptualize though, you would basically need a huge flowchart of all the different choices.

    Another way to look at this limit is to think about flipping 20 different 2 sided coins.  There are a massive amount (1,048,576) of possible different combinations of how the coins could fall.  But in reality, there are only 40 "sides" that you can experience.  Once you see each side of the 20 coins...the exact order of how they fall really doesn't mean much.

    This is similar to the limit in a lot of branching story games.  There are tons of different combinations of how things could unfold, but you're generally just recycling the same events albeit in a different combination. 

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick


    Originally posted by Creslin321



    Branching RPG stories, like BW's, remind me of those old "choose your own adventure" books.  Each time you read the book, the story can have different twists and turns, but it is ultimately limited to the amount of pages in the book.  This is how branching RPG stories work as well.  You can play them out in different ways, but they are limited to the scripts that were pre-written for the game.

    ? Sorry, I don't know if you've been playing a lot of singleplayer games, but branching dialogues and quests have been possible and done in quite a number of singleplayer games. But maybe you've been stuck in the era of 'choose your own adventure' books, which iirc were popular in a time that computergames weren't as mainstream and widespread as they are today.

    However, the computergame industry has taken the concept of branched questing and dialogues and flown with it successfully since many years now.

    Try to keep track of gameplay trends in computergaming once in a while, is what I'd like to suggest you image

     

    LOL of course they are possible and of course I have played SP branching story games.  I think you misunderstood my post.  I was only saying that branching storylines are great in that they allow to play out the story different each time, BUT they are limited by the total amount of content in the game.

    I just brought up the old choose your own adventure books because it provides a very tangible way to "see" that limit (the number of pages).  In video games, the limit is much more ephemeral.  It is simply the total amount of pre-written scripts in the game.  This isn't something you can easily conceptualize though, you would basically need a huge flowchart of all the different choices.

    Another way to look at this limit is to think about flipping 20 different 2 sided coins.  There are a massive amount (1,048,576) of possible different combinations of how the coins could fall.  But in reality, there are only 40 "sides" that you can experience.  Once you see each side of the 20 coins...the exact order of how they fall really doesn't mean much.

    This is similar to the limit in a lot of branching story games.  There are tons of different combinations of how things could unfold, but you're generally just recycling the same events albeit in a different combination. 

    I like the coin analogy. And in TOR there will be 8 stories each with three choices in the dialogue that may be able to make a difference in the story. Only 4 on each side. So that is 24 different sides to the story or 12 different for a faction. I know it won't work that way, but unless you only play with same class players. There will be many other players that have a completely unique personal story when compared to yours.

     

    The devs have said in the past that there is 60+ novels worth of spoken VO in TOR. That is a few more pages than the old adventure books and way more than any DnD experience anyone has ever had. The devs have also said that there will be different conclutions per chapeter that will lead you to different planets for the story. Even for the same class. So that will be a big difference you will be able to see and talk about in game.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by AdamTM

     

     

    I'm not saying -no story- at all in PnP, its a framework. But i never write a PnP adventure to be story-DRIVEN. I never decide that my players need to go to the tavern to talk to Grom Hellscreems ghost in order to progress or experience the events. The key is to let the players unfold the events instead of unfolding the events for them.

     

    I also do not think that telling your own story in a quest based leveling system is -impossible- or that it stops it dead in its tracks. What I'm saying instead is that it makes it -harder-.

    It becomes a game of pretend. I pretend to play my own story while i know that i actually don't.

     

    I also do not think that players will complain in SWTOR, my playstyle is not everyones cup of tea. I'm more raising a general game design concern than a specific concern towards TOR.

    That is funny to me. Every RPG game is about pretending to be or take part in a role. It is all pretend, none of it is real. It doesn't mater how real it may become in your own mind, it is just a game.

     

    For me, I would completely lose, and have, the immersion all together when things are happening based on players in the game and not the games content. Politics and PvP are meaningless with only a few hours a night. And that is all these player stories are really. There is nothing else other than pretending there is a story in grinding mobs.

     

    That is why I am so looking forward to the VO cut scenes with actual acting involved. Not just an actor reading the text to you, but seeing the actions with the voice. And that includes your own characters VO with the emotions acted out to make the scene come alive as in a movie you drive with your choices. But don't pretend that that is all there is in TOR. That is actually a small part when compared to all that you will be doing. Most of it will be the usuall combat, crafting, exploring and socially interacting with all the other players you want to. The story will just be there as an added feature to make the leveling experience mean something. Make it more immersive. Including the group stories that are faction based for all players, not personal as in the class story.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by artemisentr4

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Branching RPG stories, like BW's, remind me of those old "choose your own adventure" books.  Each time you read the book, the story can have different twists and turns, but it is ultimately limited to the amount of pages in the book.  This is how branching RPG stories work as well.  You can play them out in different ways, but they are limited to the scripts that were pre-written for the game.

    ? Sorry, I don't know if you've been playing a lot of singleplayer games, but branching dialogues and quests have been possible and done in quite a number of singleplayer games. But maybe you've been stuck in the era of 'choose your own adventure' books, which iirc were popular in a time that computergames weren't as mainstream and widespread as they are today.

    However, the computergame industry has taken the concept of branched questing and dialogues and flown with it successfully since many years now.

    Try to keep track of gameplay trends in computergaming once in a while, is what I'd like to suggest you image

     

    LOL of course they are possible and of course I have played SP branching story games.  I think you misunderstood my post.  I was only saying that branching storylines are great in that they allow to play out the story different each time, BUT they are limited by the total amount of content in the game.

    I just brought up the old choose your own adventure books because it provides a very tangible way to "see" that limit (the number of pages).  In video games, the limit is much more ephemeral.  It is simply the total amount of pre-written scripts in the game.  This isn't something you can easily conceptualize though, you would basically need a huge flowchart of all the different choices.

    Another way to look at this limit is to think about flipping 20 different 2 sided coins.  There are a massive amount (1,048,576) of possible different combinations of how the coins could fall.  But in reality, there are only 40 "sides" that you can experience.  Once you see each side of the 20 coins...the exact order of how they fall really doesn't mean much.

    This is similar to the limit in a lot of branching story games.  There are tons of different combinations of how things could unfold, but you're generally just recycling the same events albeit in a different combination. 

    I like the coin analogy. And in TOR there will be 8 stories each with three choices in the dialogue that may be able to make a difference in the story. Only 4 on each side. So that is 24 different sides to the story or 12 different for a faction. I know it won't work that way, but unless you only play with same class players. There will be many other players that have a completely unique personal story when compared to yours.

     

    The devs have said in the past that there is 60+ novels worth of spoken VO in TOR. That is a few more pages than the old adventure books and way more than any DnD experience anyone has ever had. The devs have also said that there will be different conclutions per chapeter that will lead you to different planets for the story. Even for the same class. So that will be a big difference you will be able to see and talk about in game.

    Yep, I agree with you pretty much.  From what I understand, there will be TONS of content in TOR.  And I would think that a smuggler will definitely have a different experience than a Jedi no matter what, simply because they don't share their class stories.

    The only thing I disagree with is when you mention D&D...

    D&D (normally) has no static, pre-written scripts.  It can be completely dynamic.  Normally the DM has a general idea of where he wants to take the story, but he will let players make whatever decisions they want.  It is a completely dynamic experience that cannot really be replicated by scripted quests.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by Creslin321

     

    Yep, I agree with you pretty much.  From what I understand, there will be TONS of content in TOR.  And I would think that a smuggler will definitely have a different experience than a Jedi no matter what, simply because they don't share their class stories.

    The only thing I disagree with is when you mention D&D...

    D&D (normally) has no static, pre-written scripts.  It can be completely dynamic.  Normally the DM has a general idea of where he wants to take the story, but he will let players make whatever decisions they want.  It is a completely dynamic experience that cannot really be replicated by scripted quests.

    You are correct about D&D. But I was thinking in the context of a video game. Obviously in D&D it is all based on a good DM and your own imagination and experiences that brings out a good game. So yes, on paper it is all about player told adventures and player driven stories. And IMO, that is where I would like to see it stay. Well unless they bring virtual reality to our computers. So you can actually be in a virtual game world. Then I will be all for player story driven game play.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by artemisentr4

    Originally posted by Creslin321

     

    Yep, I agree with you pretty much.  From what I understand, there will be TONS of content in TOR.  And I would think that a smuggler will definitely have a different experience than a Jedi no matter what, simply because they don't share their class stories.

    The only thing I disagree with is when you mention D&D...

    D&D (normally) has no static, pre-written scripts.  It can be completely dynamic.  Normally the DM has a general idea of where he wants to take the story, but he will let players make whatever decisions they want.  It is a completely dynamic experience that cannot really be replicated by scripted quests.

    You are correct about D&D. But I was thinking in the context of a video game. Obviously in D&D it is all based on a good DM and your own imagination and experiences that brings out a good game. So yes, on paper it is all about player told adventures and player driven stories. And IMO, that is where I would like to see it stay. Well unless they bring virtual reality to our computers. So you can actually be in a virtual game world. Then I will be all for player story driven game play.

    Ahhh I see.  Yeah we'll have to see where technology takes roleplaying int he future I guess :).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    This is similar to the limit in a lot of branching story games.  There are tons of different combinations of how things could unfold, but you're generally just recycling the same events albeit in a different combination. 

    True, there is a limit to the branches a storyline can handle, but you forget that questing in MMO's has had no branches at all, so the introduction of branched questing and storylines is an improvement and more interesting alternative of the traditional fixed quest storyline.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

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