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Merits of Friendly Fire

I'm personally all for it.  It adds an immense depth of strategy to an mmo, eliminates wasteful and unskilled aoe casting, adds a sense of realism to the game by requiring line of sight (no more casting/shooting through the tank to the mob waiting on the other side) and provides the almighty ability to kill members of your own faction, race, guild or group that piss you off. 

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Comments

  • Squal'ZellSqual'Zell Member Posts: 1,803

    Originally posted by Bjordion

    I'm personally all for it.  It adds an immense depth of strategy to an mmo, eliminates wasteful and unskilled aoe casting, adds a sense of realism to the game by requiring line of sight (no more casting/shooting through the tank to the mob waiting on the other side) and provides the almighty ability to kill members of your own faction, race, guild or group that piss you off. 

    soo what do you do with grieffers that nuke the AH or the Bank? with 40 friendlies?

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  • BjordionBjordion Member Posts: 10

    Originally posted by Squal'Zell


    Originally posted by Bjordion


    I'm personally all for it.  It adds an immense depth of strategy to an mmo, eliminates wasteful and unskilled aoe casting, adds a sense of realism to the game by requiring line of sight (no more casting/shooting through the tank to the mob waiting on the other side) and provides the almighty ability to kill members of your own faction, race, guild or group that piss you off. 

    soo what do you do with grieffers that nuke the AH or the Bank? with 40 friendlies?

    I'd really like to think that the devs would put something into place called "neutral territory".  Even the evil and unjust cannot survive without some form of justice and order.

    I has a crayon

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by Bjordion

    I'm personally all for it.  It adds an immense depth of strategy to an mmo, eliminates wasteful and unskilled aoe casting, adds a sense of realism to the game by requiring line of sight (no more casting/shooting through the tank to the mob waiting on the other side) and provides the almighty ability to kill members of your own faction, race, guild or group that piss you off. 

    I don't see how it would add anything other then requiring a tank with more health.

    RPG's aren't exactly first person shooters, they're autolock.

  • xaritscinxaritscin Member UncommonPosts: 350

    i like the idea, adds a more real "war" feeling, because now you have to think that if you use your more badass skills you could fuck all the group. but would be really bad in PvE because if you're going to tank a boss you have to think that if the DPS players will cast an AoE spell that kills all the things in the targeted zone, you'll have to stop and move, so the aggro will move the boss with you. what that means?, well.....the spell will be useless.....unless you're a healt machine and you could resist the AoE spell as fucks the boss.....you would be like a guinea pig for the DPS....

  • TylermaticTylermatic Member Posts: 4

    How about contested zones?  What prevents a 1v1 turning into a 2v1 with your own faction member helping the other faction? Maybe AOE heals can affect opposing by healing them as well....

  • xaritscinxaritscin Member UncommonPosts: 350

    that sounds cool too, so damage and healing and buffs would be a think to plan before fighting. because the balance of the victory would be more challenging....

    another one is when using "battle mounts" such as managing bombers and siege machines so you have to think at who are you shooting.......

    hehe each time i think it the more it likes to me...

  • grawssgrawss Member Posts: 419

    Originally posted by Bjordion

    I'm personally all for it.  It adds an immense depth of strategy to an mmo, eliminates wasteful and unskilled aoe casting, adds a sense of realism to the game by requiring line of sight (no more casting/shooting through the tank to the mob waiting on the other side) and provides the almighty ability to kill members of your own faction, race, guild or group that piss you off. 

    I'd give an "aye!" vote only if the game isn't faction based. Make it a free for all with the ability to group/guild with other players, and you'll have a winner. Factions plus friendly fire almost always results in endless whining to GMs, which then leads to players who take advantage of the system getting banned. Without factions, there is zero false sense of security to fall back on when the whining starts.

    The idea behind "factions" has been wearing on me for a while now. Developers need to stop telling me who they want my friends to be. :P

    Sarcasm is not a crime!

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 23,733

    I think when players are making comments against it they are doing so from their idea of how pvp rules would work on a specific game or ruleset.

    For instance someone mentioned factions. Suppose there were no factions?

    This type of mechanic would work very well in an ffa pvp game. And most likely one that didn't have a "red" or muder system but one where one's actoins would then reap repercussions on who they attacked.

    So obviously this would NOT be for everyone. I'll admit I'm for it.




  • xaritscinxaritscin Member UncommonPosts: 350

    elimination factions doesnt need necessary, just having as a side part, you have the choice to join one but you can play as a neutral person....its the same with politics, you can choose to stay neutral or support one side or another.....or you can form a new faction......that and player made cities or towns and you have player based society....

  • WorstluckWorstluck Member Posts: 1,269

    FF works great for small, dedicated and moderated FPS servers.  It does not work for largely unmoderated MMO's with large servers.  If you need a reason you have no played the likes of WoW, etc.

     

    If you want Friendly Fire MMO's, just go play one of the many sandbox games.  Hell, in Eve I have friends who make a living off friendly fire, awoxers.

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  • TylermaticTylermatic Member Posts: 4

    Didn't Age Of Conan have a similar concept? I don't see any valid reasoning as to why someone will offer an option like this, too many varibles come into play some maybe undetected before it's too late, and fixes may or may not happen in time, possibly ruining gameplay.  MMO's have too many hurdles to overcome, and this is one I don't think any developer is willing to undergo at this time or in the near future.

  • FeydiirFeydiir Member UncommonPosts: 26

    Last I knew Darkfall had this.  If you use an AoE heal you could heal your enemy too, if you use an AoE attack you could hit friendly targets as well.  You had to aim your spells as well, your single target heals could hit an enemy if you didn't aim well, or an attack spell like "cone of fire" could hit your ally.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 23,733

    Originally posted by Worstluck

    FF works great for small, dedicated and moderated FPS servers.  It does not work for largely unmoderated MMO's with large servers.  If you need a reason you have no played the likes of WoW, etc.
     
    If you want Friendly Fire MMO's, just go play one of the many sandbox games.  Hell, in Eve I have friends who make a living off friendly fire, awoxers.

    Well I think I do need a reason to understand your poit as I dont really like WoW. Not against WoW but having made a character on launch day, or pretty close to it, I think over the course of the game's life I've gotten him in the 30's. So I don't know all the ins and outs of the game.

    If  you could supply a reason that would help support your statement and make it more clear.




  • xBludxxBludx Member Posts: 376

    Originally posted by Feydiir

    Last I knew Darkfall had this.  If you use an AoE heal you could heal your enemy too, if you use an AoE attack you could hit friendly targets as well.  You had to aim your spells as well, your single target heals could hit an enemy if you didn't aim well, or an attack spell like "cone of fire" could hit your ally.

    Darkfall does have this.

    Last I heard, there are issues with the alignment system, though (among other things).

    And people above mentioned that this would cause problems for tanks, etc. I think if a game allowed friendly fire, the traditional tank-healer-dps trinity would probably either not exist or be very flexible. It would take a lot of skill for a tank to hold aggro and put the monster between him and the dps. All of those dynamics (aggro, trinity, etc.) would have to be rethought.

    Not saying it's a bad thing, but the whole concept of the game would be different than what we have now (but see Darkfall for the nearest thing).

  • WorstluckWorstluck Member Posts: 1,269

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Worstluck


    FF works great for small, dedicated and moderated FPS servers.  It does not work for largely unmoderated MMO's with large servers.  If you need a reason you have no played the likes of WoW, etc.
     
    If you want Friendly Fire MMO's, just go play one of the many sandbox games.  Hell, in Eve I have friends who make a living off friendly fire, awoxers.

    Well I think I do need a reason to understand your poit as I dont really like WoW. Not against WoW but having made a character on launch day, or pretty close to it, I think over the course of the game's life I've gotten him in the 30's. So I don't know all the ins and outs of the game.

    If  you could supply a reason that would help support your statement and make it more clear.

     

    The possibility for griefing is too much in large, faction-based MMO games imo.  FF works great on a 32 man FPS server, that has a mod there all the time to kill the awoxers.  I just don't think it's manageable with a large game with 5,000 people on a server, with multipler servers.  FFA games already have friendly fire, its free for all, but it's kind of inherent to that style of game.  Most FFA games don't really have factions, besides player created ones.  Yes EVE has factions, but they are largely meaningless when compared to the player created ones.  I believe it's the same with Darkfall.

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 23,733

    Originally posted by Worstluck


    Originally posted by Sovrath



    Originally posted by Worstluck


    FF works great for small, dedicated and moderated FPS servers.  It does not work for largely unmoderated MMO's with large servers.  If you need a reason you have no played the likes of WoW, etc.
     
    If you want Friendly Fire MMO's, just go play one of the many sandbox games.  Hell, in Eve I have friends who make a living off friendly fire, awoxers.

    Well I think I do need a reason to understand your poit as I dont really like WoW. Not against WoW but having made a character on launch day, or pretty close to it, I think over the course of the game's life I've gotten him in the 30's. So I don't know all the ins and outs of the game.

    If  you could supply a reason that would help support your statement and make it more clear.

     

    The possibility for griefing is too much in large, faction-based MMO games imo.  FF works great on a 32 man FPS server, that has a mod there all the time to kill the awoxers.  I just don't think it's manageable with a large game with 5,000 people on a server, with multipler servers.  FFA games already have friendly fire, its free for all, but it's kind of inherent to that style of game.  Most FFA games don't really have factions, besides player created ones.  Yes EVE has factions, but they are largely meaningless when compared to the player created ones.  I believe it's the same with Darkfall.

    I guess that's where the disconnect comes in as my first mmo was ffa pvp and griefing ran rampant and it was all part of the game. I don't view it as bad but just different.

    If there were griefers then you united against them or perished. I played lineage 2 for over 4 years so it was a more brutal game and could have possibly benefited from friendly fire.




  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,667

    What we need is friendly fire plus permadeath. Nothing like getting accidentally killed by your own teammate in a high end dungeon. Whoops. You get to start over at level 1 while your friend continues on in the dungeon with a pick up replacement.

  • grawssgrawss Member Posts: 419

    Originally posted by Worstluck



    The possibility for griefing is too much in large, faction-based MMO games imo.  FF works great on a 32 man FPS server, that has a mod there all the time to kill the awoxers.  I just don't think it's manageable with a large game with 5,000 people on a server, with multipler servers.  FFA games already have friendly fire, its free for all, but it's kind of inherent to that style of game.  Most FFA games don't really have factions, besides player created ones.  Yes EVE has factions, but they are largely meaningless when compared to the player created ones.  I believe it's the same with Darkfall.

    If you think it won't work for faction-based MMO games, then say that. What you said was "It does not work for largely unmoderated MMO's with large servers." and that gives the impression that you think it wouldn't work at all no matter the system used.

     

    Sarcasm is not a crime!

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    Let me just quote Damien Schubert from Bioware's SWTOR team about friendly fire. IMVPO I think that says all. ;)

     

    Source: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5759138#edit5759138

    “I worked on Shadowbane – it had limited friendly fire. Of particular note, the Fury class was designed to have more powerful AoEs than any other class, but have this balanced out by having them hit everyone in the group. The end result was that Furies ended up being shunned by groups and guilds because unless they were played by the hands of a maestro, they were usually more of a liability than a benefit. Unsurprisingly, they were our least popular class.

    We don’t have friendly fire in The Old Republic for a simple reason: a lot of players are, well… idiots. I don’t mean you, of course, dear reader, I mean those OTHER players. You know who I’m talking about.”

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • RohnRohn Member UncommonPosts: 3,729

    Originally posted by Tylermatic

    Didn't Age Of Conan have a similar concept? I don't see any valid reasoning as to why someone will offer an option like this, too many varibles come into play some maybe undetected before it's too late, and fixes may or may not happen in time, possibly ruining gameplay.  MMO's have too many hurdles to overcome, and this is one I don't think any developer is willing to undergo at this time or in the near future.

     

    It would probably ruin gameplay if it was inserted into a game that wasn't designed for friendly fire.

    In games where friendly fire is a part of the design of the game, like in Mortal Online, it fits, and is one of the things that makes such games a different type of play experience from the norm.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • BjordionBjordion Member Posts: 10

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Let me just quote Damien Schubert from Bioware's SWTOR team about friendly fire. IMVPO I think that says all. ;)
     
    Source: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5759138#edit5759138

    “I worked on Shadowbane – it had limited friendly fire. Of particular note, the Fury class was designed to have more powerful AoEs than any other class, but have this balanced out by having them hit everyone in the group. The end result was that Furies ended up being shunned by groups and guilds because unless they were played by the hands of a maestro, they were usually more of a liability than a benefit. Unsurprisingly, they were our least popular class.
    We don’t have friendly fire in The Old Republic for a simple reason: a lot of players are, well… idiots. I don’t mean you, of course, dear reader, I mean those OTHER players. You know who I’m talking about.”

    I absolutely agree, a lot of players are idiots.  For those of us that are not, FF is just one extra sliver of realism that makes the game that much more challenging.  As was stated above, there are potentially a lot of problems with FF in an unmoderated 5,000+ populated server... but those problems and potential for abuse only exist if they are allowed to persist.  It's all about separating the wheat from the chaff.  The players that don't have the skill level to play with FF will either quit on their own or be forced out by the skilled players, making room for other players with skill that can handle FF as an aspect of the game.

    SWTOR doesn't have FF simply because they want to appeal to as many players as possible.  The devs refuse to risk potentially driving away customers who get frustrated when their gameplay experience is hindered due shortcomings entirely of their own design.  I wouldn't go as far to say FF is an elitist-only feature, but it certainly is for the more advanced player.  

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  • xaritscinxaritscin Member UncommonPosts: 350

    that issue could be fixed with making it enable/disable in the options?, i mean, making like a some sort of organizated PvP battles where there can be two modes, one with FF and the other doesnt have it......

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Rohn

    Originally posted by Tylermatic
    Didn't Age Of Conan have a similar concept? I don't see any valid reasoning as to why someone will offer an option like this, too many varibles come into play some maybe undetected before it's too late, and fixes may or may not happen in time, possibly ruining gameplay.  MMO's have too many hurdles to overcome, and this is one I don't think any developer is willing to undergo at this time or in the near future.
     
    It would probably ruin gameplay if it was inserted into a game that wasn't designed for friendly fire.
    In games where friendly fire is a part of the design of the game, like in Mortal Online, it fits, and is one of the things that makes such games a different type of play experience from the norm.



    I agree with Rohn, longer explanation follows.

    Mortal Online isn't so much Friendly Fire as it is FFA PvP. Friendly Fire can happen, but it's not really part of the rules of the game.

    FFA PvP and Friendly Fire are different because of the rules of the game. For instance, in World of Tanks, if you hit a team mate deliberately, you can get banned from the game. In Mortal Online, if you hit a team mate deliberately, another team mate might kill you (maybe). World of Tanks has Friendly Fire rules, Mortal Online doesn't.

    So Friendly Fire is really unintentionally hitting a "friendly", not just being able to hit a "friendly". You could add this to most games, even tab targeting games. If you're standing too close to another player's target you might get hit with their fireball. Is it more challenging if, because of a RNG, you hit a "friendly"? I'm going to say, "No".

    If the game uses shooter targeting, and it's possible to hit a "friendly", and there are penalties for doing so deliberately, then does this make the game more challenging? I'm going to say, "Yes". It doesn't matter if the game is a lobby shooter or an mmorpg.

    Would having friendly fire make mmorpg better or more fun? I think most of the time it wouldn't because a lot the results you get depend on RNG. Unless there's a skill factor there it just makes the game more frustrating. The only mmorpg I can think of where you have aim based targeting is Global Agenda. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would make the game better because the action is generally all clumped up in a little area so you'd always be hitting team mates or never hitting your opponents.

    If you designed it in from the start, like it is in most games that have friendly fire, it could be fun. I'd have to see the game first to really decide...so far I haven't played an mmorpg where friendly fire would improve the game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 2,484

    friendly fire is realist but annoying ,is a freepass for team mates to grief  :( , isnt abused (thank god) but  when happens is frustrating

     

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member Posts: 3,988

    I like the idea of it, but due to griefers I think it would cause more problems than create a more tactical experience.

    I think the closest way to implement it in a MMO with traditional combat, would be to simply prevent you from attacking if there is a friendly player in your line of sight/AE radius. Would have to include collision detection as well I suppose.

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