As always, I only have played Lineage 2 (not much) and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. Sorry, I'm VERY selective when starting to play games. I believe MMOs are for playing them longtime (years). So yeah, my experience is limited and I dont know many of these things firsthand.
To the OP:
1. NO. I play games to get stories told. Quests are the best MMOs came up with to tell any stories, so far. They arent of the quality of singleplayer games, but I definitely prefer having them, and I want them to be as great as possible.
2. MEH. Err, thats exploring, not adventuring. "Quest hub" saves you the running around. Its the good old "Baldurs Gate 1 vs Baldurs Gate 2" debate - should we explore or do we want a packed world ? I think we should have a good mix of both so everybody can play what style they prefer.
3. MEH. There are always big religious fights if the player should be the hero or not, but frankly either way a game can be fun. So - whatever.
4. YES. I agree that PvP should always be sportive. Making PvP less dependent upon level is one way to do it.
5. MEH. I have no experience with battlegrounds (nor do I care to ever get experience).
6. YES. I dont like the idea of queues but I have no firsthand experience with them.
7. MEH. I have no experience with phasing, but I really dont care if a game has it or doesnt have it. That does very little to the overall experience.
8. MEH. Never heard of that, sounds stupid but irrelevant, dont care.
9. BIG NO !!! Cooldowns are TECHNICALLY ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. Any MMO *needs* cooldowns in order to compensate for ping issues. For example, if I'm playing Vanguard on Telon (US Server), I get 0.3 sec ping - at BEST. Without cooldowns, there would be no way to compensate for this disadvantage.
10. YES. Kinda. I dont know any MMO that actually has diablo style random drop generation, and I wouldnt oppose it if one had, as long as theres ALSO crafting. In all MMOs I know of, the drops may look random, but they are actually pretty predefined. And I think any MMO should have 3 ways for getting new gear: 1. Random drops / Bossmob drops (kinda "diablolike", but you can learn what a named will drop) 2. Quest rewards 3. Crafting.
- Of course quests shouldnt be stupid - just kill X of that, kill Y of that all the time would get boring pretty quick. Doesnt hurt to kill X of this, kill Y of that once in a while, though.
- I dont like instancing. Ever. Yes quest mobs etc are challenged - but thats a price I'm willing to pay for the feeling of being actually part of a WORLD. In an instance, I am just playing an ordinary multiplayer game.
Grawss' ideas:
1. NO. I dont like the idea of players creating quests. That wont lead to original quests with new mobs and never before seen features. Also players already pay for playing, they dont need to also make the game.
2. MEH. No idea what he actually wanted to say - he's pretty much changing the subject.
3. MEH. Same.
4. NO. This is a game, not real life. Players need a feeling of progression.
5. YES and NO ... I dont like RvR either. However, I oppose everyone attacking everyone as well. You should be able to attack another player if your two alliances are at war with each other. Playerkillers are a special case that needs special treatment. Also, there will NEVER be perfect balance in a classbased game. However, classes are there to provide diversity.
6. NO. No queuing, period.
7. YES. I dont like instancing and I would welcome if a player solving a quest had actually changed the world.
8. MEH.
9. NO. No idea how anything he said was refering to cooldowns.
10. NO. I prefer itembased games.
- MMORPGs are RPGs. Nobody cares if you RP in a RPG - a RPG is a game where your combat power depends upon the skills of your character, not on the reflexes and precision of you yourself.
Johnie-Marz:
1. NO. That is a question of taste. I dont like MMOs that are not itembased, either, but its really a question of taste.
2. MEH. No game dev can do anything about what is chatted on the chat channel, as long as they agree with basic rules of civility - and complaining about WoW is something you are allowed to do, by these rules.
3. YES. While "less is more" is not a bad rule to keep in the back of your head, as long as more does more, more is good.
4. NO. Balance is extremely important in a MMO. If FOTM classes appear they need to be nerfed, and underpowered classes need to be boosted. Granted - WoW might have overdone this.
5. YES. I dont care if many quests are without motivation, but a couple of them should have some.
6. NO. I wouldnt want to do them either, but I dont care if they are there as an option for people who want to do them.
7. MEH. MMOs feel like a job a lot to me. If you're crafter you work for the community.
Originally posted by JC-Smith
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
3) The idea that less is more. Look we have no quests, no story, no venders, in fact we did absolutely nothing, enjoy the game.
Less is more. Pre-NGE SWG economy wouldn't have been able to function with quests and NPC vendors.
Pre-NGE economy had plenty of quests at the Theme Parks (and using mission generator).
3) The idea that less is more. Look we have no quests, no story, no venders, in fact we did absolutely nothing, enjoy the game.
Less is more. Pre-NGE SWG economy wouldn't have been able to function with quests and NPC vendors.
Pre-NGE economy had plenty of quests at the Theme Parks (and using mission generator).
The mission generator only put out credits, not items. Everything had to be made by players, which is the only way for an economy to function, NO NPC drops, no NPC quest rewards for equipment.
The OP has quite a list. Best I can make out it eliminates all MMORPG games, which leave what - console games? PC games like CIV or Total War? OP says he likes RPGs but none of them have anything he likes, his list eliminated just about everything. How about watching/Playing football or other sports? How about Soccer? Surf the internet?
If the MMORPG game industry has nothing you like, well, sorry - but it does seem to have a large multi-billion dollar following. Myself I am looking forward to SWTOR (pre-ordered), GW2 and TSW. I do not know of any upcoming game (or already out) that leave out the things on his list. MMORPG.com here has an extensive game list so simply go through the genres you are interested in and check out their home pages. Might get lucky.
There's no disputing the OP feels the way he does. However it's worth mentioning that many of those line-items are exactly why MMORPGs exploded in popularity. They became densely-entertaining games, instead of hollow empty shells.
Could a world simulation game also be created which was densely-entertaining? Maybe. But I don't think we've seen it yet (and if you've liked world simulation, that's great; but the fact is most people don't like it on account of it being entertaining only very rarely.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1. Modern quests. First and foremost, I fume at the sight of the yellow exclamation point. Quests have made the transition from a little something extra to the main focus of leveling. I've had numerous conversations with advocates of this formula, and the main defense that I hear is "you don't have to do them". Now, that's true; however, there's so much of the focus on quests that persistent world content is neglected, leaving a quest-less experience a dull one. Obviously, I'm mainly talking about WoW, partially because it's what I have the most experience with, and partially because it has had such an impact on the rest of the medium. It's not just the yellow exclamation point, but much of what comes with it, which leads into number two....
<snip>
10. Diablo-esque looting systems. For me, I would much rather be able to customize my own gear to a further extent than having to pick up a random piece of gear every few levels. I tihnk it would be more fun and immersive if most of the sutff that I found wasn't vender trash. Some systems have implemented variations of breaking down not-so-usful stuff into components. Having to constantly upgrade my gear gets tiresome and it begins to feel more like a chore making sure my gear is up to snuff in order to survive in my current level-appropriate zone.
AGREE. I've about had my fill of the 'traditional' quest system. I'd prefer something more organic.
AGREE. Hard not to based on #1. I'm not averse to hubs though, just the ones that exist only to hand out quests.
DISAGREE. I like personalized stories, so long as they are woven through a larger game narrative. It's a part of the character's development for me and gives them a uniqueness that gear can't match.
AGREE. I've preferred skill-based as opposed to level-based game design since I graduated from Dungeons & Dragons to RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu more the 20 years ago. It's not a deal breaker for me though since I can deal with 'leveling', it's just not my preference.
INDIFFERENT. I don't like BGs, but I loathe world PvP where I have no choice but to deal with every jackass looking to be a nuisance. Sometimes I feel like mixing it up with other players, just not 24/7. Usually, I've things I'd rather be doing. But when I do feel like PvP, I'd rather it be something large scale and not a BG.
AGREE. I hate having to wait, especially when I feel that it has been manufactured into the game to draw out the length of my subscription. I also just hate sitting on my hands and doing nothing. Zen master, I am not.
AGREE. I initially though this was pretty cool when I first started playing WotLK. It wasn't until I realized that it split me off from my friends that I started getting irked. Now I just say no to phasing.
AGREE. I don't think I've ever actually seen that, but I know that I wouldn't want to.
INDIFFERENT. Depending on how the combat system is designed, it can work for me. But so can other systems...
AGREE. I'd much prefer a system where you can build up your gear over time rather than constantly swapping pieces out, especially when you want to keep a particular look, but the stats are doomed to quickly fall below the difficulty of the content you will be facing. The loot litter after every battle that I normally see, just devalues the whole experience for me. Just dump some coins into my pockets please. I'll decide how to reward myself with them later.
Comments
Pre-NGE economy had plenty of quests at the Theme Parks (and using mission generator).
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
As always, I only have played Lineage 2 (not much) and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. Sorry, I'm VERY selective when starting to play games. I believe MMOs are for playing them longtime (years). So yeah, my experience is limited and I dont know many of these things firsthand.
To the OP:
1. NO. I play games to get stories told. Quests are the best MMOs came up with to tell any stories, so far. They arent of the quality of singleplayer games, but I definitely prefer having them, and I want them to be as great as possible.
2. MEH. Err, thats exploring, not adventuring. "Quest hub" saves you the running around. Its the good old "Baldurs Gate 1 vs Baldurs Gate 2" debate - should we explore or do we want a packed world ? I think we should have a good mix of both so everybody can play what style they prefer.
3. MEH. There are always big religious fights if the player should be the hero or not, but frankly either way a game can be fun. So - whatever.
4. YES. I agree that PvP should always be sportive. Making PvP less dependent upon level is one way to do it.
5. MEH. I have no experience with battlegrounds (nor do I care to ever get experience).
6. YES. I dont like the idea of queues but I have no firsthand experience with them.
7. MEH. I have no experience with phasing, but I really dont care if a game has it or doesnt have it. That does very little to the overall experience.
8. MEH. Never heard of that, sounds stupid but irrelevant, dont care.
9. BIG NO !!! Cooldowns are TECHNICALLY ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. Any MMO *needs* cooldowns in order to compensate for ping issues. For example, if I'm playing Vanguard on Telon (US Server), I get 0.3 sec ping - at BEST. Without cooldowns, there would be no way to compensate for this disadvantage.
10. YES. Kinda. I dont know any MMO that actually has diablo style random drop generation, and I wouldnt oppose it if one had, as long as theres ALSO crafting. In all MMOs I know of, the drops may look random, but they are actually pretty predefined. And I think any MMO should have 3 ways for getting new gear: 1. Random drops / Bossmob drops (kinda "diablolike", but you can learn what a named will drop) 2. Quest rewards 3. Crafting.
- Of course quests shouldnt be stupid - just kill X of that, kill Y of that all the time would get boring pretty quick. Doesnt hurt to kill X of this, kill Y of that once in a while, though.
- I dont like instancing. Ever. Yes quest mobs etc are challenged - but thats a price I'm willing to pay for the feeling of being actually part of a WORLD. In an instance, I am just playing an ordinary multiplayer game.
Grawss' ideas:
1. NO. I dont like the idea of players creating quests. That wont lead to original quests with new mobs and never before seen features. Also players already pay for playing, they dont need to also make the game.
2. MEH. No idea what he actually wanted to say - he's pretty much changing the subject.
3. MEH. Same.
4. NO. This is a game, not real life. Players need a feeling of progression.
5. YES and NO ... I dont like RvR either. However, I oppose everyone attacking everyone as well. You should be able to attack another player if your two alliances are at war with each other. Playerkillers are a special case that needs special treatment. Also, there will NEVER be perfect balance in a classbased game. However, classes are there to provide diversity.
6. NO. No queuing, period.
7. YES. I dont like instancing and I would welcome if a player solving a quest had actually changed the world.
8. MEH.
9. NO. No idea how anything he said was refering to cooldowns.
10. NO. I prefer itembased games.
- MMORPGs are RPGs. Nobody cares if you RP in a RPG - a RPG is a game where your combat power depends upon the skills of your character, not on the reflexes and precision of you yourself.
Johnie-Marz:
1. NO. That is a question of taste. I dont like MMOs that are not itembased, either, but its really a question of taste.
2. MEH. No game dev can do anything about what is chatted on the chat channel, as long as they agree with basic rules of civility - and complaining about WoW is something you are allowed to do, by these rules.
3. YES. While "less is more" is not a bad rule to keep in the back of your head, as long as more does more, more is good.
4. NO. Balance is extremely important in a MMO. If FOTM classes appear they need to be nerfed, and underpowered classes need to be boosted. Granted - WoW might have overdone this.
5. YES. I dont care if many quests are without motivation, but a couple of them should have some.
6. NO. I wouldnt want to do them either, but I dont care if they are there as an option for people who want to do them.
7. MEH. MMOs feel like a job a lot to me. If you're crafter you work for the community.
Teh. Thats a classical "in your face" ...
The mission generator only put out credits, not items. Everything had to be made by players, which is the only way for an economy to function, NO NPC drops, no NPC quest rewards for equipment.
The OP has quite a list. Best I can make out it eliminates all MMORPG games, which leave what - console games? PC games like CIV or Total War? OP says he likes RPGs but none of them have anything he likes, his list eliminated just about everything. How about watching/Playing football or other sports? How about Soccer? Surf the internet?
If the MMORPG game industry has nothing you like, well, sorry - but it does seem to have a large multi-billion dollar following. Myself I am looking forward to SWTOR (pre-ordered), GW2 and TSW. I do not know of any upcoming game (or already out) that leave out the things on his list. MMORPG.com here has an extensive game list so simply go through the genres you are interested in and check out their home pages. Might get lucky.
There's no disputing the OP feels the way he does. However it's worth mentioning that many of those line-items are exactly why MMORPGs exploded in popularity. They became densely-entertaining games, instead of hollow empty shells.
Could a world simulation game also be created which was densely-entertaining? Maybe. But I don't think we've seen it yet (and if you've liked world simulation, that's great; but the fact is most people don't like it on account of it being entertaining only very rarely.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Missed the WoW forumns by THAAAT much...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
AGREE. I've about had my fill of the 'traditional' quest system. I'd prefer something more organic.
AGREE. Hard not to based on #1. I'm not averse to hubs though, just the ones that exist only to hand out quests.
DISAGREE. I like personalized stories, so long as they are woven through a larger game narrative. It's a part of the character's development for me and gives them a uniqueness that gear can't match.
AGREE. I've preferred skill-based as opposed to level-based game design since I graduated from Dungeons & Dragons to RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu more the 20 years ago. It's not a deal breaker for me though since I can deal with 'leveling', it's just not my preference.
INDIFFERENT. I don't like BGs, but I loathe world PvP where I have no choice but to deal with every jackass looking to be a nuisance. Sometimes I feel like mixing it up with other players, just not 24/7. Usually, I've things I'd rather be doing. But when I do feel like PvP, I'd rather it be something large scale and not a BG.
AGREE. I hate having to wait, especially when I feel that it has been manufactured into the game to draw out the length of my subscription. I also just hate sitting on my hands and doing nothing. Zen master, I am not.
AGREE. I initially though this was pretty cool when I first started playing WotLK. It wasn't until I realized that it split me off from my friends that I started getting irked. Now I just say no to phasing.
AGREE. I don't think I've ever actually seen that, but I know that I wouldn't want to.
INDIFFERENT. Depending on how the combat system is designed, it can work for me. But so can other systems...
AGREE. I'd much prefer a system where you can build up your gear over time rather than constantly swapping pieces out, especially when you want to keep a particular look, but the stats are doomed to quickly fall below the difficulty of the content you will be facing. The loot litter after every battle that I normally see, just devalues the whole experience for me. Just dump some coins into my pockets please. I'll decide how to reward myself with them later.
EDIT: Snipped for brevity