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Korea May Ban D3 over Real Money Auction House trading

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

    People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

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  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

     

    Yes, item farming is what I'm talking about.  And someone somewhere will figure out how to automate that or in some other way cheat.  It will be similar to the dupping of SoJs from Diablo 2 LOD Online or something else, perhaps, but someone will find a way.  Then people will begin whining about it, then Blizzard will come up with some invasive software to be installed on your machine to prevent it.

     

    We'll see how long this takes.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • CeridithCeridith Member CommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

    People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

    Blizzard is also incentivizing other bad behaviors such as account theft, scamming, botting, exploiting, etc, by legitimizing the worth of virtual items gained through doing these things.

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by waynejr2


    Originally posted by just1opinion

    In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

    People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

    Blizzard is also incentivizing other bad behaviors such as account theft, scamming, botting, exploiting, etc, by legitimizing the worth of virtual items gained through doing these things.

     

    I agree with you.  I think it's going to be a godawful fucking mess.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920

    My first choice is and always will be the eradication of items in the store with pvp or pve affecting stats on them plus the total eradication of illicit gold farming.

     

    Neither of which is going to happen.  In the case of the first one, too many players tolerate it to boycott it, and in the case of the second one, it was never the MMO devs'  fault in the first place, instead of quitting games that forced a gold or level grind, players kept playing those games while breaking the game rules by buying gold and leveling services. 

     

    So given the situation, here is my hope for Diablo 3's real money auction house:  I hope that the gold farmers will give up in disgust and go 'play' something else because competition in a free and legal pixel market drives down prices and makes farming not worth it.  I'm interested to see if this will happen or if the farmers will find a way to be profitable despite having to compete with legitimate players.

     

    Edit:  To use a real life example of legalizing a product or service:  How often do we hear about mafia involvement in the American alcoholic beverages industry these days?  Rarely, if ever.  During prohibition it was a different matter. 

     

     

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  • CavodCavod Member Posts: 295

     






    Originally posted by lizardbones

     







    Originally posted by just1opinion









    Originally posted by Cavod

    What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?

     

    Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.

     

    So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 

     

    I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.









     

    You have a good point.  That's exactly why gold selling is illegal, so what makes this different?  Either both should be illegal or neither.











    No, they don't have a good point. You're not buying and selling a virtual item; you do not own the virtual item. You're buying and selling a license to use the virtual item within the game.



    Also, gold selling isn't illegal. Not even in South Korea. Gold selling violates the terms of service of most games in the United States. It's illegal to gamble online in South Korea, so anything you earn in a game that's like gambling (random drops) cannot be sold for real world currency. If you're not gambling, then it's perfectly legal to buy and sell virtual currency in South Korea.



     




    No, they don't have a good point.





    No, they





    they


    Stopped reading right there... well not really but I should have as the rest followed suit. 

     

    P.S. You're wrong.  I can see what you're trying to do in this thread and I'm not buying it.

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,147

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by waynejr2


    Originally posted by just1opinion

    In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

    People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

    Blizzard is also incentivizing other bad behaviors such as account theft, scamming, botting, exploiting, etc, by legitimizing the worth of virtual items gained through doing these things.

    Thing is though it has already been like this for quite awhile and quite honestly it is nothing new.  If blizzard didn't have the RMAH the value would remain the same just it would be easier to spot the cheats.

    IF by chance it turned into a mess it already depends on how blizzard cleans it up, they have been known to remove features that were bad for play so if its really bad they may remove it all together or as was said we'd get invasive software on our system to report everything to ads.com and obamacare.gov while saving us from evil hackers.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Cavod
     



    Originally posted by lizardbones
     




    Originally posted by just1opinion





    Originally posted by Cavod
    What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?
     
    Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.
     
    So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 
     
    I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.





     
    You have a good point.  That's exactly why gold selling is illegal, so what makes this different?  Either both should be illegal or neither.






    No, they don't have a good point. You're not buying and selling a virtual item; you do not own the virtual item. You're buying and selling a license to use the virtual item within the game.

    Also, gold selling isn't illegal. Not even in South Korea. Gold selling violates the terms of service of most games in the United States. It's illegal to gamble online in South Korea, so anything you earn in a game that's like gambling (random drops) cannot be sold for real world currency. If you're not gambling, then it's perfectly legal to buy and sell virtual currency in South Korea.
     
    No, they don't have a good point.


    No, they




    they


    Stopped reading right there... well not really but I should have as the rest followed suit. 
     
    P.S. You're wrong.  I can see what you're trying to do in this thread and I'm not buying it.




    ?

    Cavod is neither a male nor a female name. So I used, "they". I was also not responding directly to you, so I didn't use the word, "you".

    What am I trying to do to this thread, exactly?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Originally posted by DeathTouch

    I'm just waiting for the government to scream, "WHERE ARE MY TAXES?"

    I'm certain Blizzard's legal team has their asses covered on that front.  Their consumers, on the other hand, may be answering some tough questions at audit time.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • RoccprofitRoccprofit Member Posts: 98

     Actually it is a legal mine field as to the legal or not legal selling of gold, that is why games have a EULA. The Eula is your contract or agreement with the company to use there product. Most EULA's state that you can not buy or sell anything that makes real world money off there product, that includes gold. Violating the EULA is a breach of contract and the contract is a legal agreement and therefor it is illeagel to sell gold as it violates the EULA. So if the EULA states that selling gold is a violation you can be held legally accountable if the company chooses to pusue it. That is why most gold farmers are from forgien countrys.

    image

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245

    Originally posted by st4t1ck

    I still dont understand why its such a big problem to put a feature in a game that you dont have to use. if you dont like it dont use it. so many people say they wont play the game because of this. Im not willing to miss out on a great game because of something i may or may not use

     

    And without modding and perma online no solo when no internet and all the MONEY CRAZY$$$bastards who see game just as business, not for fun or relaxation, no just a day at work work work.

    No thx, blizzard gets no money from me.

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    First of all, I really doubt that unidentified items would be allowed on the RMAH, Blizzard won't be that dumb, if they would allow that then it would be looked at it as gambling in most of the world.

    Secondly, while thinking a bit about insertion fees and googling about it, they are allowed for Ebay, so they should be allowed for the RMAH as well. I do personally feel these should be token charges, to avoid spamming the auction house with crap, not a high sum that may discourage a legit seller.

    Furthermore, from what I have read, RMT is alowed in South Korea, so I don't see the problem there.

    Interesting stuff all of this. Honestly I hope Blizzard will succeed, because I prefer this system over Microtransactions directly from the game companies and illegal RMT from scammers and botters.

     

    Now there is another thing a friend of mine mentioned, what if you buy a dupe with real money and Blizzard zaps it? Or wont they zap dupes? Now then that would be pretty bad as well, so how are they going to fix that?

     

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  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    After doing some more research the plot thickens.

    So it was not allowed to do RMT in South Korea :

    http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2007/05/s_koreas_bancan.html

    A few years later the Supreme Court destroys this law and make RMT legal, except if it is based on gambling :

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/01/116_58775.html

    http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2915126

    However if you read this carefully, it may be on the edge. While I personally feel that items in the Diablo series are mostly found by skill, there is of course luck involved, while I personally don't view this as gambling, it may fall under the gambling law.

    So the question is how exactly are loot drops done in Lineage? I haven't play Lineage long enough and too long ago to remember.

     

    Here is a link to what this all started, there is a lot of speculation here.

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2011/09/123_95415.html

     

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by CyberWiz
    After doing some more research the plot thickens.
    So it was not allowed to do RMT in South Korea :
    http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2007/05/s_koreas_bancan.html
    A few years later the Supreme Court destroys this law and make RMT legal, except if it is based on gambling :
    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/01/116_58775.html
    http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2915126
    However if you read this carefully, it may be on the edge. While I personally feel that items in the Diablo series are mostly found by skill, there is of course luck involved, while I personally don't view this as gambling, it may fall under the gambling law.
    So the question is how exactly are loot drops done in Lineage? I haven't play Lineage long enough and too long ago to remember.
     
    Here is a link to what this all started, there is a lot of speculation here.
    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2011/09/123_95415.html
     


    To the South Korean government, playing online video games is equivalent to gambling, especially since you can get addicted to it. That's why selling gold is illegal - you're earning money from 'gambling'. Two guys bought a bunch of gold in Lineage II, then bought a bunch of items, then sold those items for a lot more gold, and then sold the gold for real world money. The SK Supreme Court ruled that the men were not guilty of gambling (they earned the money), so the money they earned was currency and could be sold. The SK Supreme Court did nothing but exonerate the two guys, they didn't legalize gold selling in South Korea. They didn't abolish any laws or change any laws. Those two guys just didn't break the law with what they did.

    Blizzard's problem is that playing video games looks like gambling to the South Korean government, so you can't take those virtual items and make money off of them.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Quote :

    "Justice Min Il-young said that trading game money for cash should be punished only in cases in which it is obtained by online gambling games such as poker or other card games."

    This clearly sets a precedent don't you think?

    Also :

    "Meanwhile, a court ruled in September of last year that profits from the trading of "cyber money" should be subject to 10 percent value added tax (VAT)."

    So clearly, if they tax it, they are allowing it.

     

    Furthermore in the original law from 2007 on RMT'ing, items and gold are looked upon as equivalent.

    Also the law from 2007 tries to combat sweatshops, but that is not what we are talking about here.

     

    So really I think Blizzard has a good case, even in South Korea.

     

     

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  • darthsihorondarthsihoron Member Posts: 1

    The difference between RMAH and gambling is very simple. While winning money at gambling is based purely on chance ,winning money on RMAH  is also based on some economics and business rulles ( example: a fair price / offer and demand / rarity /etc) Thus if you put a good item for huge price no one will buy it ever. The main problem with RMAH is that it destroys the boundries between gaming and real life... Using real money to buy game upgrades is ruining the fairness of the game because not every user can afford that . So some players will start with an advantage that has nothing to do with their skills,intelligence or time played just with their bank accounts.

    Life is pain

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Originally posted by darthsihoron

    The difference between RMAH and gambling is very simple. While winning money at gambling is based purely on chance ,winning money on RMAH  is also based on some economics and business rulles ( example: a fair price / offer and demand / rarity /etc) Thus if you put a good item for huge price no one will buy it ever. The main problem with RMAH is that it destroys the boundries between gaming and real life... Using real money to buy game upgrades is ruining the fairness of the game because not every user can afford that . So some players will start with an advantage that has nothing to do with their skills,intelligence or time played just with their bank accounts.

    I completely agree with that, but too bad this is the way mmorpg's / online RPG's are evolving. The thing is, if you really want to ban all illegal RMT'ing, then you would need for everyone to have electronic ID's and you'd have to use these to be able to play.

    This would seriously undermine the freedom we have on the Internet.

    It is a balance between freedom and security, China, Australia, Dictatorships, Nanny states, be carefull with what you wish for.

     

     

     

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  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034

     






    Originally posted by darthsihoron

    The difference between RMAH and gambling is very simple. While winning money at gambling is based purely on chance ,winning money on RMAH  is also based on some economics and business rulles ( example: a fair price / offer and demand / rarity /etc) Thus if you put a good item for huge price no one will buy it ever. The main problem with RMAH is that it destroys the boundries between gaming and real life... Using real money to buy game upgrades is ruining the fairness of the game because not every user can afford that . So some players will start with an advantage that has nothing to do with their skills,intelligence or time played just with their bank accounts.



     

    If you are trading inside the game, on a meta level you are gambling, and that is the whole problem here. You also have some gambling machine inside some mmo, but since they are about ingame gold, i really don't thing it can be looked at gambling "mmo" on a meta level, at least in principle.

    I personally don't like D3 for bringing real money inside the game. If they forbid RMAH because of gambling rules in most countries that have very harsh rules about this i won't cry at all.

    Also this will learn to this kind of companies that they just shouldn't cross some limits about RMT, personally when i see some browser or p2w games ripping off the teens and kids with their unacceptable prices and huge profit made from few code lines, i would really like someone to kick this snake nest for good. If Korean gambling institution start it, good.

  • SkuddSkudd Member Posts: 129

    Though i never found the need to use them in my 5 years playing WoW, given an option, i'd rather not have cash shops(or RMAH) in a game. And i would actually be very happy if this move by Korea forces Blizz to remove the RMAH completely from D3.

     

    But you have to be highly delusional and/or illiterate to actually belive that gambling and auctions are one and the same. 

    "It is my opinion, that my opinions are always right"

  • coomscooms Member Posts: 219

    Good. Hopefully Blizzard will stop trying to nickle and dime people with every new game they make. If they want my money they can add more content/expansions.

     

    110% rooting for Korea to ban. This was and is still a stupid idea.

  • lynshakelynshake Member Posts: 26

    i think for such an wonderfil game have such things is an improve. if you do not want use this u can still enjoy another  interesting things of this game .

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