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Korea May Ban D3 over Real Money Auction House trading

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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by stayontarget

    Bliz could always turn off that feature for the eastern market.

    That would not be a smart idea. First of all would they admit that it is gambling by doing that.

    Secondary it will very likely inspire other nations to demand that they close it for them as well.

    I don't see it as gambling myself, but I think we really need a international law clarification on virtual items now. It is kinda fuzzy, the gaming companies say that they own all the items but they sell stuff to you for real money... If it is just renting them it should not be called item mall.

    If the SK agency says it's gambling and won't rate them, Blizzard can turn it off at first and appeal the decision.  No need to delay launching the game because of the RMAH in one country.  I doubt other countries care.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by kilun


    Originally posted by SaintViktor


    Originally posted by thegypsyking


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

     Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

     And bidding on eBay is gambling as well then?  So is any auction in general with that analogy.  You pay a fee to put up an auction to the host(this case the host is blizzard)  they take a cut of the sale price(in their case its a flat fee regardless of final price)  Your a seller, most sellers have a monetary value attached, if people ever ran a small business(be it a table at a flea market with a cost per table) to selling on Ebay they would understand basic businesses economics 101: You got to put up money to make money.

    Yes, I can without a doubt understand the thought process because frankly it is close to gambling in a sense that we want to win something and get caught up in auctions.  But gambling is blowing money with a chance to win more money, item, etc.  In this case the buyer puts up nothing if they do not win, so it does not equal gambling.

     Lets say you put up an item on the RMAH and it costs you a $1 fee for the listing fee and $1.00 for the transaction fee for using the RMAH. The item sells for $8.00 on the RMAH, right then and there is a profit. From your own words.... But gambling is blowing money with a chance to win more money, item, etc. Its gambling....

    No, it really isn't. An auction that happens to have fees is not gambling in the sense that falls under gaming laws.

     

    If it is a sealed bid type system in which no one can see the other bids, then it may be a quasi auction-lottery but technically that still does not fall under the gambling laws (at least in the US/UK) as far as I am aware.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484

    Sounds like someone didn't get their bribe. Oh, excuse me, "campaign contribution."

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • KrematoryKrematory Member UncommonPosts: 602

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by thegypsyking


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

    How so?

    When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

    The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

    In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

    Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

    So selling anything through Ebay is gambling as well?

    "EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by lizardbones
     


    Originally posted by kitarad
    Houses get put on the auction blocks too and unlike poker there is an actual virtual item here that you spent time getting. It is not based on chance. They will probably tax it.



    People keep bringing this up. Nobody is transferring ownership of anything. Players are not actually buying virtual items. In theory, the government might attempt to assess a sales tax for services, but these are private sales between individuals, over the internet, probably across regional lines. No sales taxes will be taken.

    However, in the United States, if you earn money, you may need to submit a personal income tax form, even if you are underage. If you earn more than $600 a year, and you have other income (from a job) where you would be paying income tax, you'll need to put that money earned on your income tax forms. That's where the government is going to collect money.

    ** edit **
    Also, the South Korean government banned another game type thing that wasn't a gambling machine. They banned it because people acted like it was a gambling thing. All that's needed is for the people who would be playing to treat the RMAH like a way to gamble or as if they were gambling, and the South Korean government will ban it.

     


    When push comes to shove, it's the government instated law that determines what ownership of virtual goods for players, not an EULA. Many nations are in the process of writing new legislation pertaining to virtual ownership of goods and taxation there of. Governments could very well give ownership and property rigths to players, but the catch is that they will be subject to taxes. And with good reason, it's a quickly growing industry that has so far largely escaped taxation.
    That's the fire that Blizzard is playing with by legitimizing RMT in Diablo 3. When it was against the EULA to pariticpate in any form of RMT, the strong case could be made agaisnt ownership of virtual property by players. When the opposite occurs, and sale of virtual goods for real money between parties occurs but is avidly promoted by Blizzard, it implies a level of ownership on behalf of the seller -- you can't legally sell something you do not own.
    Time will tell how it unfolds, but I can't help but feel that Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot, not to mention the rest of the industry, for their RMAH money grab.



    They aren't playing with fire. It isn't property ownership. It is a service. You don't own any property when you go to a gym and use their equipment to exercise. You may pay extra money for a personal trainer, but you don't own that personal trainer. You're paying for a service. It's a service, not property.

    The U.S. government does not currently collect a sales tax. They collect income taxes. This is where those items are going to get taxed. People who earn money and who cash out of the system will pay income tax.

    Individual state governments might start collecting sales taxes, but they would only be able to do so when you 'cash out' of the system. If you never actually cashed out of Blizzard's system, you're never actually earning money. You're only paying Blizzard money.

    Even in the cases where states decide to collect sales taxes, they would collect sales taxes on the money you put into Blizzard's system. Why? Because then they can tax Blizzard (who is going to charge you for it). They would not be able to collect money from people who never cashed out (which is the most likely scenario). They also do not currently assess a sales tax on individual sales of goods or services, which is what they would have to do if they wanted to tax sales of items in Blizzard's RMAH.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • CavodCavod Member Posts: 295

    What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?

     

    Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.

     

    So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 

     

    I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Interesting... but stupid.

    The thing is that if it is OK to sell virtual items in a RMT shop it should be OK for players to sell them as well.

    Either you ban both or none. That doesn't mean I like this but the law needs to be fair.

     Yeah but buying from a cash shop there is only the 1 time fee and it is yours. There is also no bidding and selling fees on a cash shop.

    30
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Interesting... but stupid.

    The thing is that if it is OK to sell virtual items in a RMT shop it should be OK for players to sell them as well.

    Either you ban both or none. That doesn't mean I like this but the law needs to be fair.

     Yeah but buying from a cash shop there is only the 1 time fee and it is yours. There is also no bidding and selling fees on a cash shop.

    Er, so it's an auction then. The fee is simply a service charge for being able to use the companies auction services.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • kilunkilun Member UncommonPosts: 738

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by kilun

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by thegypsyking

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

     Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

     And bidding on eBay is gambling as well then?  So is any auction in general with that analogy.  You pay a fee to put up an auction to the host(this case the host is blizzard)  they take a cut of the sale price(in their case its a flat fee regardless of final price)  Your a seller, most sellers have a monetary value attached, if people ever ran a small business(be it a table at a flea market with a cost per table) to selling on Ebay they would understand basic businesses economics 101: You got to put up money to make money.

    Yes, I can without a doubt understand the thought process because frankly it is close to gambling in a sense that we want to win something and get caught up in auctions.  But gambling is blowing money with a chance to win more money, item, etc.  In this case the buyer puts up nothing if they do not win, so it does not equal gambling.

     Lets say you put up an item on the RMAH and it costs you a $1 fee for the listing fee and $1.00 for the transaction fee for using the RMAH. The item sells for $8.00 on the RMAH, right then and there is a profit. From your own words.... But gambling is blowing money with a chance to win more money, item, etc. Its gambling....

     You sold something.  It is a service fee, are you really blind to how economics and business work?  Do you think that a 3rd party site does not pay out money in advance?  A 3rd party site will have the website fees, the credit card fees(or whatever method of obtaining payment)  Its called business 101.  Learn about basic business.

    What your mentioning is all business are gambles, sure if you want to call it that, you put up money to possibly make money, but referring to the auction house seller as a gambler isn't very logical.  That is like saying the guy at a flea market is a gambler, the small business owner is one, etc.  The powerseller on eBay is a gambler too.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by thegypsyking

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

     Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

    The idea is that Random drop lead to real world cash by selling on the market.   The Random could make it gambling if the wrong people look at it that way.  Look at electronic slot machines.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005

    Originally posted by Sukiyaki

     

    Btw.: RMT shop both private and gamepublisher ones ARE banned in Korea IF they dont declare their revenues and pay taxes.

    This. 

    Remember cause microtransaction ,rmah etc is growing and more money is there , goverments will logically want to tax it ,well they kinda have to. 

    I see more goverments following this in future.

    For example I see EU putting Vat on cash shop sales in future.  Tax offices will tap income taxes on all official rham like Diablo 3one as well ,just a matter of time.

    I see game developers have to cooperate with multiple cointries tax offices or face bans. Maybe not now, maybe not in next year , but eventually it will.

    Korean goverment is just smart , and already doing that.

    It is unavoidable.

  • just2duhjust2duh Member Posts: 1,290

     LOL that's rich, considering mostly all illegal gold/item selling that plague our MMO's come from Korea/China.

  • kreakrea Member UncommonPosts: 226

    Think they will still go for the idea since well its blizzard and i realy doubt they will scare this fast and with their big funds they can try some stuff out without having alot of risk. Also this is no mmo so this game will earn most cash from box sales and expansions and in general they will get more cash from boxes in eu / us than asia since it will or be cheaper or free to play with some buy options .

  • CacaphonyCacaphony Member Posts: 738

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Originally posted by SaintViktor


    Originally posted by thegypsyking


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

     Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

    The idea is that Random drop lead to real world cash by selling on the market.   The Random could make it gambling if the wrong people look at it that way.  Look at electronic slot machines.

    I guess I do not understand where the gambling part comes in.  We find an item in the game, and post it for sale.  We see that item in the auction, and bid on it.  When we bid on it, we know exactly what we are bidding on.  We can see it, it's right there.  The only unkown factor is if we become outbid or not, which shouldn't be a risk factor since we decided we wanted the item and put up the money for it anyway.   I simply do not see much of a relation to gambling.  This could almost be like RMTs like other games put in the cash shop, cept we bid on them and they are put there by players. 

     

    If I am seeing this the wrong way, I would appreciate some examples or explination to help understand the problem. 

  • EvileEvile Member Posts: 534

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    U.S. officials do not understand. They wont until enough people cry about it.

    image

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484

    Originally posted by Evile

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    U.S. officials do not understand. They wont until enough people cry about it.

     No you don't understand. It's Not Gambling. It doesn't meet the legal definition of gambling.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • DerWotanDerWotan Member Posts: 1,012
    Love it it will not be the only country, many will follow. Well Kotick you bastard will not be ablte utilizing kids playing this game.

    I'm sure consumer lawyers will have to say something about this also.

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
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  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Looks like it could be the begining of the end of the RMAH. Stay tuned.....

     

    I remember when I first heard about virtual goods being sold on ebay by players.  It was enough of a buzz at the time (late 90s) to make TV news.

     

    Funny how times change.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484

    Originally posted by DerWotan

    Love it it will not be the only country, many will follow. Well Kotick you bastard will not be ablte utilizing kids playing this game. I'm sure consumer lawyers will have to say something about this also.

     Good luck with that. You think Activision's corporate lawyers are slackers? They didn't consider it before they approved the plan?

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by Evile

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    U.S. officials do not understand. They wont until enough people cry about it.

     

    Given the US government, I bet if any stink will happen it would be over the collection of state sales tax on virtual items.  Although they won't bother unless they think they can collect millions from it.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by thegypsyking

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

     Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

    That is called an auction and has nothing at all to do with gambling.


    Originally posted by romanator0

     

    How so?

    When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

    The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

    In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

    Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

    No not at all. It's more akin to buying a spot in a flea market or trade show, you pay for the space to sell your wares from.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317

    I am glad to hear that any country/state/person is boycotting Diablo III and it's RMAH. 

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • pharazonicpharazonic Member Posts: 860

    /popcorn

    ~

    Pertinent reply by Vadoff:

    What’s really funny about this is Korea is the KING when it comes to microtransactions, and virtual items bought with real currency. Almost all of their online games have systems like that.

    So it’s really boggling, why D3′s real money trade would be considered “gambling”. I think the Korean game reviewers are confused about the randomization aspects… gambling is about risk, there’s no risk at all with D3. You can’t ever LOSE money. It’s not like the items you buy from D3 have a 25% chance of disappearing once bought, or something like that. It makes no sense.

    "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

    I need to take this advice more.

  • treysmoothtreysmooth Member UncommonPosts: 648

    Originally posted by DeathTouch

    I'm just waiting for the government to scream, "WHERE ARE MY TAXES?"

     

    Totally this, the game companies keep pushing rmt and in some games what amounts to gambling(not actually referring to d3 with that part of the comment) and eventually the govenerment is going to see what is going on in these online games and go where is my chunk.  It seems like most game companies would rather try to make the cash that can be made before it all goes south with government over regulation.

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