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A friendly advice/warning for players who may play with real money

Not sure if everyone is aware of the new withdraw periode.

 For years you could take out real money  within  30 business days

( warning  new guys -> dont except this game to be profitable, in many cases the money you can  take out , is much less than what you had spent )

At present momment, the official  processing time to  taking out money has been increased  to   40 business days  .  

I have asked/looked for other people who are/had withdrawing money. Some withdraws took more than 40 days and some cases took even months.

So becareful  -> A longer withdraw time  can  be very nasty.  

Some  may think  a few extra days  isnt a big deal, a few years ago I would have agreed .

But now we have worldwide economic crisis and the game seems to have  less  players deposite money.  

If you loose job or  need some cash in real life   and you  try to withdraw,  your money  will  no longer arrive on time.

In worst case it may never arrive.

So becareful and take care.

 

Comments

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Indeed.

    Afaik, the game finances are not subject to external audit and public disclosure.

     

    That means that the developers may not actually have the RL cash to pay out the full value of all the ingame credits held by players.

  • narfinarfi Member UncommonPosts: 178

    Ive only done one withdrawl of about 3 thousand dollars.

    It took about 6 weeks to get the money which is right around 30 buisnes days esp if you consider weekends and all of the Swedish holidays.

    http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?199742-Withdrawing-some-PED-for-the-first-time-what-should-I-know

     

    Honestly though, if your real life will be affected by not getting money out of a video game in a timely matter, you have much greater issues than the games polocies on cashing out.

    Everything i put into the game is for entertainment, I dont put in more than i am willing to budget for entertainment. If I ever profit enough to withdraw again that will just be a bonus on top of the fun I have had with the game.

     

    narfi

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by narfi

    Ive only done one withdrawl of about 3 thousand dollars.

    <snip>

    Everything i put into the game is for entertainment, I dont put in more than i am willing to budget for entertainment. If I ever profit enough to withdraw again that will just be a bonus on top of the fun I have had with the game.

     

    narfi

    And how much did you pay in during your "career" in Entropia ?

    Nvm, a gambler never discloses their losses, only their winnings :)

    I'm guessing that you're an "Entropia Veteran" who has invested a few thousand dollars into building your character over a few years. Once you've spent enough money to be able to play at the higher levels, it is possible to get pretty good payouts on killing mobs or from high-end mining strikes.

    It's very important for top-end players like yourself to encourage new people to play the game, because without new players pouring hundreds of dollars into the game, there can't be any high-end payouts for the high-level players to enjoy !

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004

    40 business days = 8 weeks or roughly speaking .. 2 months..  though to be honest.. this is not a game you should be playing if you think your going to make money out of it as the level of investment needed to even begin along those lines is significant.. and.. also unless you have an 'in' with the company.. its pretty unlikelyimage

  • rawfoxrawfox Member UncommonPosts: 788

    Originally posted by narfi

    Honestly though, if your real life will be affected by not getting money out of a video game in a timely matter, you have much greater issues than the games polocies on cashing out.

    Everything i put into the game is for entertainment, I dont put in more than i am willing to budget for entertainment. If I ever profit enough to withdraw again that will just be a bonus on top of the fun I have had with the game.

     

    narfi

    this ^^

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,467

    This game has been called the genre's best online casino, so any money you get out of it should come as a surprise, and not as an expectation.

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • narfinarfi Member UncommonPosts: 178

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    And how much did you pay in during your "career" in Entropia ?

    Nvm, a gambler never discloses their losses, only their winnings :)

    I'm guessing that you're an "Entropia Veteran" who has invested a few thousand dollars into building your character over a few years. Once you've spent enough money to be able to play at the higher levels, it is possible to get pretty good payouts on killing mobs or from high-end mining strikes.

    It's very important for top-end players like yourself to encourage new people to play the game, because without new players pouring hundreds of dollars into the game, there can't be any high-end payouts for the high-level players to enjoy !

    I dont consider myself a gambler. If you want to call this game gambling then you could call me a card counter. If you are able to count cards then its not really gambling anymore is it?

    I don't mind sharing my info, I have deposited an average of 20-50 dollars a month for 3.5 years.

    If we call it 50, then that comes out to about just over 2 thousand dollars, lets be conservative again and call it 2500 dollars.

    I withdrew the 3300, so that puts me at +800.

    If I sold everything I owned now back to the game and withdrew my avatar is currently worth around 2100 dollars. (thats if i didnt sell anything for markup to other players. If i did that it would be considerably more)

    So thats 800+2100 = 2900 dollars ive made by playing a game for fun in my spare time.

    If I Chipped out all of my skills and sold them it would bring me in another 1000 dollars at todays market prices.

    So thats a total of 3900 dollars(would be more if i sold my stuff for full market value) in 3.5 years of playing.

    I study alot and do everything as effeciently as possible. It is a very competitive game and I am no where near the top of the food chain. I have studied and tested and proven to myself that you can profit at low levels and mid levels, I dont have the finances to play at high levels but I know I could profit at those as well.

    Yes I would like more people in the game, the fun and excitment and energy from new players is needed othewise the game grows stagnent with everyone doing the same exact thing.  In order for there to be a thriving economy there has to be players at all levels of the game supplying each other and buying from each other.

    The ubers need supplies that are too tedious for them to grind for, and beginners need weapons and tools that they arent skilled enough to produce. It is win win for everyone for there to be more people participating.

    I will repeat what I said before though.

    "Only put into the game what you are willing to spend on entertainment, If you get anything back that is a bonus but not expected. Play for fun, study and learn. But most importantly have fun."

     

    narfi

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by narfi

     

    I dont consider myself a gambler. If you want to call this game gambling then you could call me a card counter. If you are able to count cards then its not really gambling anymore is it?

    I don't mind sharing my info, I have deposited an average of 20-50 dollars a month for 3.5 years.

    If we call it 50, then that comes out to about just over 2 thousand dollars, lets be conservative again and call it 2500 dollars.

    I withdrew the 3300, so that puts me at +800.

    If I sold everything I owned now back to the game and withdrew my avatar is currently worth around 2100 dollars. (thats if i didnt sell anything for markup to other players. If i did that it would be considerably more)

    So thats 800+2100 = 2900 dollars ive made by playing a game for fun in my spare time.

    If I Chipped out all of my skills and sold them it would bring me in another 1000 dollars at todays market prices.

    So thats a total of 3900 dollars(would be more if i sold my stuff for full market value) in 3.5 years of playing.

    I study alot and do everything as effeciently as possible. It is a very competitive game and I am no where near the top of the food chain. I have studied and tested and proven to myself that you can profit at low levels and mid levels, I dont have the finances to play at high levels but I know I could profit at those as well.

    Yes I would like more people in the game, the fun and excitment and energy from new players is needed othewise the game grows stagnent with everyone doing the same exact thing.  In order for there to be a thriving economy there has to be players at all levels of the game supplying each other and buying from each other.

    The ubers need supplies that are too tedious for them to grind for, and beginners need weapons and tools that they arent skilled enough to produce. It is win win for everyone for there to be more people participating.

    I will repeat what I said before though.

    "Only put into the game what you are willing to spend on entertainment, If you get anything back that is a bonus but not expected. Play for fun, study and learn. But most importantly have fun."

     

    narfi

    Thanks narfi, that's a good example to illustrate my point about Entropia.

     

    Just like any RL casino, the money that a player takes out of Entropia comes from the pool that is built-up from other players' payments (less a % to the game developer).

     

    So, if your character has a nett gain of $3900+ at this point, then some other group of players has accumulated a nett loss of $3900++. The money ingame comes from other players only.

    If 5 players start a poker game with $100 each, and one player leaves the game with $500, the other 4 players have lost all their money.

     

    I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of cash injected in Entropia comes from new players who play for 4 to 6 months and then quit without withdrawing a single cent, because they find the game too expensive to sustain. In that time, they will most likely spend quite a few hundred dollars.

     

    The major difference between Entropia and a RL casino is that Entropia has no "$1 slot machines". As a low level player (i.e. very little real money spent), you cannot make any money. You have to probably spend $500 before you get to the point where you can START to see any decent winnings. AND those winnings will only reduce your monthly dollar input. It will require a lot more money and a careful study of game mechanics to get you to where narfi is after 3.5 years :)

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    I spent 20 dollars to buy some basic gear and so far I have eben bale to keep playing on that without paying anythign back in. I've only been playing a couple months though, and I'm sure a stroke of bad luck would have me out sweating again. Playing smart does seem to pay off though.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • narfinarfi Member UncommonPosts: 178

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Thanks narfi, that's a good example to illustrate my point about Entropia.

     

     

    You see gambling beause you want to see gambling and then twisted my words to match :P

    It is more like a chess tournament where you pay to enter and there are money prizes for the people who are better at chess.

    You are wrong about there not being opertunities at low levels, I found them and I did well as a low level player without depositing a cent. I have done even better as a depositing player at higher levels, and I am sure If i had the real life finances to play at the top levels I could do well there as well.

    This is not because I am gambling (though I may be taking money from people who have chosen to gamble) but because I am able to study the game and play well.

    If you are a gambler and enter a chess tournament with a gambling attitude, how well do you think you would do without actually studying the game of chess?

     

    narfi

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by narfi

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko



    Thanks narfi, that's a good example to illustrate my point about Entropia.

     

     

    You see gambling beause you want to see gambling and then twisted my words to match :P

    It is more like a chess tournament where you pay to enter and there are money prizes for the people who are better at chess.

    You are wrong about there not being opertunities at low levels, I found them and I did well as a low level player without depositing a cent. I have done even better as a depositing player at higher levels, and I am sure If i had the real life finances to play at the top levels I could do well there as well.

    This is not because I am gambling (though I may be taking money from people who have chosen to gamble) but because I am able to study the game and play well.

    If you are a gambler and enter a chess tournament with a gambling attitude, how well do you think you would do without actually studying the game of chess?

     

    narfi

    Yes, I see gambling, not a chess match.

     

    I did not "twist your words" at all. I only used the numbers you gave to illustrate a certain point. The logic of that point still stands, with or without your actual figures. For you to take out more than you started with, some other player must pay in that money.

     

    A game that constantly bombards the player with messages that "player X has just won a prize worth XXX PED !" is reinforcing the gambling image. What it says to the player is that "you too could win big if you just keep playing". 

     

    To use your chess match anology, it would be the same as giving prizes to the players if they happen to move a piece onto the "lucky square of the moment" on their chessboard, not because they win or lose the actual chess game.

     

    Getting a Global High on mining or a mob drop or while crafting is not a matter of skill, it's pure random luck. The same as playing a slot machine or roulette wheel. That is the main design feature of the game, it applies to every activity ingame. A "lucky strike" can make you rich, just keep trying...

     

    If you are earning your keep in Entropia by careful buying and selling on the player markets, that's another story. That would be closer to the "chess game" that you refer to. But that's metagaming, the majority of players in Entropia are not playing the game because they want to be commodity traders.

  • narfinarfi Member UncommonPosts: 178

    I have been studying this game for over 3 years. Every detailed player log I have read in which the player kept track of every pec spent and received came up with the same results. I did my own logs from time to time which agreed with theirs.

    The loot you receive back is consistant to how much you put in. If you do 100 hunts of 100ped each you will come very close to the same average amount back as if I do 100 hunts of 100ped each regardless of what level either of us are at or what animal we are killing. If you are killing animals that cost 10pec to kill you will not receive many globals but will get the same amount back at the end. If I am killing a dragon that cost me 20ped to kill then I will get more globals and even some hofs, but in the end I will have the same return as you do. (provided we are both using the most economical weapon for our skill range, doesnt have to be the same weapon, just most economical for that skill level)

    This is consistant and I have absolute faith in the system because I have studied it for so long and anyone that has said otherwise can never produce hard evidence.

    You want to call it gambling because there are aspects of chance in it, I say it is not gambling because I can accuratly predict how my next months activities will turn out.

    Let us compromise and say it is like a War Stratagy board game. Lets use Civilization the board game for the example.  Each player can start out with the same units and place them stratigicly how they choose. They choose wheir their units go and what they explore. Sometimes they find resources that are beneficial to them, and sometimes they find areas that are detrimental. When they finaly meet in battle the outcome is decided by chance (dice) but the stratagy of where they meet, and what units take place in the battle are the choice of the players.

    The outcome of one game can be attributed to chance. But suppose you have a group of 5 friends who play the game once every night for a year and keep a total score of who comes in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

    At the end of that year you will see a pattern and one player will likely have dominated the scoreboard while 1 will obviously have a much lower score than everyone else. The rest of the players will group somewhere around the middle.

     

    Now tell me, there are dice used in the game, there is chace which determins what recource is turned over on each area of the map as you explore. Is this gambling? If it is gambling then why did one player do so much better than the others? Was he just lucky?

     

    I say it is not gambling, and neither is Entropia Universe. It is a lazy person who attributes luck to the success of a hard working person.

    I say it is a lazy person who sleeps all day, drinks all night, and complains that his neighbor who works 6 days a week 10 hours a day just bought a new car.

    hopefully this helps explain my view on the game,

     

    narfi

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by narfi

    I have been studying this game for over 3 years. Every detailed player log I have read in which the player kept track of every pec spent and received came up with the same results. I did my own logs from time to time which agreed with theirs.

    The loot you receive back is consistant to how much you put in. If you do 100 hunts of 100ped each you will come very close to the same average amount back as if I do 100 hunts of 100ped each regardless of what level either of us are at or what animal we are killing. If you are killing animals that cost 10pec to kill you will not receive many globals but will get the same amount back at the end. If I am killing a dragon that cost me 20ped to kill then I will get more globals and even some hofs, but in the end I will have the same return as you do. (provided we are both using the most economical weapon for our skill range, doesnt have to be the same weapon, just most economical for that skill level)

    This is consistant and I have absolute faith in the system because I have studied it for so long and anyone that has said otherwise can never produce hard evidence.

    You want to call it gambling because there are aspects of chance in it, I say it is not gambling because I can accuratly predict how my next months activities will turn out.

    Let us compromise and say it is like a War Stratagy board game. Lets use Civilization the board game for the example.  Each player can start out with the same units and place them stratigicly how they choose. They choose wheir their units go and what they explore. Sometimes they find resources that are beneficial to them, and sometimes they find areas that are detrimental. When they finaly meet in battle the outcome is decided by chance (dice) but the stratagy of where they meet, and what units take place in the battle are the choice of the players.

    The outcome of one game can be attributed to chance. But suppose you have a group of 5 friends who play the game once every night for a year and keep a total score of who comes in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

    At the end of that year you will see a pattern and one player will likely have dominated the scoreboard while 1 will obviously have a much lower score than everyone else. The rest of the players will group somewhere around the middle.

     

    Now tell me, there are dice used in the game, there is chace which determins what recource is turned over on each area of the map as you explore. Is this gambling? If it is gambling then why did one player do so much better than the others? Was he just lucky?

     

    I say it is not gambling, and neither is Entropia Universe. It is a lazy person who attributes luck to the success of a hard working person.

    I say it is a lazy person who sleeps all day, drinks all night, and complains that his neighbor who works 6 days a week 10 hours a day just bought a new car.

    hopefully this helps explain my view on the game,

     

    narfi

    OK, so you are saying that on average, it actually costs very little to play Entropia, because the loot from mob drops almost equals the cost of ammo and repairs to kill the mob. Provided that you have studied the game properly and know the most economical combo of equipment vs target at any given level.

    Does this average cost calculation include HoF's and Globals ? 


    • If it does, then those "big wins" are simply refunding a portion of the money that you have already spent. Without them, you'd be spending a lot more than you're earning. It would also imply that in the long run it's impossible to make a profit at all in Entropia.

    • If it doesn't, then the HoF and Global "big wins" are pure profit. In that case, where does the money come from ?

     


    Your Civilization boardgame comparison is totally flawed. If all the players all equally skilled, and one repeatedly wins, then he is obviously lucky with his random dice rolls.


    You cannot compare a boardgame with an MMO where resources and mob loot are constantly regenerated by a random number generator. Besides, your boardgame players would all have to play for money (as they do in Entropia), so isn't that gambling ? :D


     

  • narfinarfi Member UncommonPosts: 178

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    ...

    Does this average cost calculation include HoF's and Globals ? 


    • If it does, then those "big wins" are simply refunding a portion of the money that you have already spent. Without them, you'd be spending a lot more than you're earning. It would also imply that in the long run it's impossible to make a profit at all in Entropia.

    • If it doesn't, then the HoF and Global "big wins" are pure profit. In that case, where does the money come from ?

     


     


     

    99% of the time the globals and hofs are just part of what you need for your average.

    There are some 'promotional' hofs though and it is very hard for a new player to diferenciate between the two.

    I will use round numbers to try and explain it as simply as I can.

    You spend 100ped on a hunt, the developers get 10 of that, and you get 90 ped back in loot. (assuming on average, each individual run can and will be better or worse)

    A majority of that 10ped the developers take goes into running the company, paying salaries, and sharholders etc... The buisness behind the game. Promotions are a part of that and so come out of their amount.

    The 90ped you take in loot can be sold directly back to them at face value(90ped,) or you can sell it to other players who have a use for it for markup. If you manage to sell your 90 ped of loot to other players for 100ped, then you broke even and played for free. If you sell your 90 ped of loot to other players for 95ped then you paid 50 cents for your hour of entertainment. If you sell your 90ped of loot to another player for 110ped, then you profited 1 dollar for you game time.

    narfi

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by narfi

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    ...

    Does this average cost calculation include HoF's and Globals ? 


    • If it does, then those "big wins" are simply refunding a portion of the money that you have already spent. Without them, you'd be spending a lot more than you're earning. It would also imply that in the long run it's impossible to make a profit at all in Entropia.

    • If it doesn't, then the HoF and Global "big wins" are pure profit. In that case, where does the money come from ?

     


     


     

    99% of the time the globals and hofs are just part of what you need for your average.

    There are some 'promotional' hofs though and it is very hard for a new player to diferenciate between the two.

    I will use round numbers to try and explain it as simply as I can.

    You spend 100ped on a hunt, the developers get 10 of that, and you get 90 ped back in loot. (assuming on average, each individual run can and will be better or worse)

    A majority of that 10ped the developers take goes into running the company, paying salaries, and sharholders etc... The buisness behind the game. Promotions are a part of that and so come out of their amount.

    The 90ped you take in loot can be sold directly back to them at face value(90ped,) or you can sell it to other players who have a use for it for markup. If you manage to sell your 90 ped of loot to other players for 100ped, then you broke even and played for free. If you sell your 90 ped of loot to other players for 95ped then you paid 50 cents for your hour of entertainment. If you sell your 90ped of loot to another player for 110ped, then you profited 1 dollar for you game time.

    narfi

    Ah, OK, so the game is designed in such a way that the "big wins" (HoF's and Globals) actually refund your ingame expenses, less a % to the developer to cover costs. Presumably that % is on a sliding scale, otherwise it would cost proportionately more RL money to play the higher your character level.

     

    You just have to make sure that you keep on putting in money until such time as you get those big payouts that will break even (or close to even, rather). Provided you have studied the game carefully and you are playing at optimum efficiency for your level, of course.

     

    But it still means that if YOU have "won" $3900 in 3+ years of playing, some other player (or group of players) has spent $3900 more than they earned in game. 

     

    Obviously, for there to be big winners in any game, there have to be a lot of losers...

  • narfinarfi Member UncommonPosts: 178

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Ah, OK, so the game is designed in such a way that the "big wins" (HoF's and Globals) actually refund your ingame expenses, less a % to the developer to cover costs. Presumably that % is on a sliding scale, otherwise it would cost proportionately more RL money to play the higher your character level.

     

    You just have to make sure that you keep on putting in money until such time as you get those big payouts that will break even (or close to even, rather). Provided you have studied the game carefully and you are playing at optimum efficiency for your level, of course.

     

    But it still means that if YOU have "won" $3900 in 3+ years of playing, some other player (or group of players) has spent $3900 more than they earned in game. 

     

    Obviously, for there to be big winners in any game, there have to be a lot of losers...

    From what I can tell the % you get back on average is the same for low and high level players. So if you were only selling your loot back to the developers (through the trade terminal) then the higher the level you play the more you would loose per hour.

    But the higher the level you play the more demand there is for the items and resources you are able to loot, and therefore there is more potential for markup if you play properly.

    Here is an actual example for you,

    During my lunch break today I went mining and had a good run. (some will be good, some bad, but I dont worry about that, I just assume a 90% return in the long run and do my best to make that up in markup.

    During my run I used up 2  level 7 mining amps at 120 tt each which i paid 135.5ped for. (120tt+15.5 markup) = 140tt + 31mu

    And I used 78ped worth of probes.

    After my run I fully repaired all of my tools for another 7.57ped of expenses.

    image

    So in total my run cost me 240(amps) + 31(amp markup) + 78(probes) + 7.57(repairs) = 356.57ped

    Here is what I got back,

    image

    3.78ped of megan @ 110% = 4.16

    18.00ped of quantium @105% = 18.90

    110.91ped of Alternative @145% = 160.82

    123.00ped of Gazzurite @120% = 147.60

    0.93ped of Hansidian @850% = 7.90

    175.20ped of Erdorium @128% = 224.25

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Total TT spent = 325.57ped

    Total spent including markup = 356.57

    Total TT I dug up = 434.22ped

    Total I dug up including markup = 563.63ped

    Average weighted markup for all the ores I found = 129.8%

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In the games view I profited 108.65ped

    But by playing within the economy of the game I actually profited 207.06ped

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now consider I had not had such a good run, imagine instead that I hit the exact average of 90% brought back.

    My expenses would have stayed the same

    Total TT spent = 325.57ped

    Total spent including markup = 356.57

    But what I brought back would be different,

    Total theoritical dug up = 293.01

    Theoritical dug up including markup = 380.32

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So if I analyze this, I know that if i can consistantly hit these ores that I can profit in the long run using this size of amp. (if the markup of the ores was lower I would have to not use amps and so reduce my own markup expenses)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Using these equations I would expect to be able to profit about 23.57ped each run on average after markup in vs markup out and a return rate of 90% tt.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are correct, if one person profits another must loose. That is what is so competitive about this game and why I like it so much. I am not playing against an artificial intelegence programed to let me win with minimal effort. I must compete against every other person in the game trying to take my money from me.

    You may see this as a bad thing, but I see it as true competition and it is the reason why I stick around rather I am winning or loosing. I know that my brain will exersized and I love the challenge.

     

    Good Luck and have fun :)

     

    narfi

  • DEXA88DEXA88 Member UncommonPosts: 113

    1st if you are selling at TT value you are doing the wrong thing

    2nd you forget that besides the ores you are also geting better skills and those skills help you find better resources

     

  • narfinarfi Member UncommonPosts: 178

    Originally posted by DEXA88

    1st if you are selling at TT value you are doing the wrong thing

    2nd you forget that besides the ores you are also geting better skills and those skills help you find better resources

     

    1. I agree, and that is what I tried to explain in the post above yours :)

    2. You are correct, the goal is to choose activities where you break even or profit while still gaining skills. But even if you loose a little ped the skill gains can actually make that slight loss a break even run when you consider the value of them.

     

    narfi

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