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Is this the breaking point in EVE?

jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

Despite the somewhat controversial title, I seriously don't think EVE will die. But the media is picking this up and the social media has gone into over-drive.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/09/06/eves-csm-fight-back-and-some-thoughts/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/09/05/eve-online-stellar-council-head-hits-out-at-ccp/

http://www.next-gen.biz/news/ccp-accused-running-eve-online-ground

 

Ironically 'The Mittani' (CSM Chairman and author of the post that started this whole thing) has said he was surprised his post was picked up by the media sites as CSM had plans to try and get any traction by the media next week.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=25679#post25679

 

We have seen this work before, the creation of TEAM BFF was a direct result of CCP trying to damage control the perception that EVE is a bad buggy game. 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

«13

Comments

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321

    Mittani being elected into CSM was the worst thing to happen EVE.

    Troll will be troll and drama queen will be a drama queen...


    I have no issues with him running his mouth as a player and qq on kugu or wherever but it is unacceptable to do as CSM member.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Mittani being elected into CSM was the worst thing to happen EVE.

    Troll will be troll and drama queen will be a drama queen...



    I have no issues with him running his mouth as a player and qq on kugu or wherever but it is unacceptable to do as CSM member.

    Why is it 'unacceptable'?

    CSM is there to represent the playerbase and I agree with Mittani in that 'Where the F--- are the spaceships?!'

     

    Fun Fact, the 0.0 Null Sec blog is cut content from the DOMINION expansion. By Seleene, Former EVE-Online dev and now CSM member.

    Dev Blog

    http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=946

     

    Seleene Quote

    http://www.eve-radio.com/

    6th of Sept interview with Funkybacon.

     

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • CorehavenCorehaven Member UncommonPosts: 1,533

    I dont know or really care all that much about what you guys are talking about, since I havent played EvE for about 3 months, but for EvE to die? 

     

    Dust has to die.  Its not even out yet.  If that does well enough, this could go on for a good long while.  I have no idea if that game is going to be any good or not, but if its something decent, EvE could get a boost.  Of course this is all speculation. 

     

    EvE could do a hundred things to totally overhaul the game if they had too.  Its far from dead.  Its not going anywhere for the time being.  

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Corehaven

    I dont know or really care all that much about what you guys are talking about, since I havent played EvE for about 3 months, but for EvE to die? 

     

    Dust has to die.  Its not even out yet.  If that does well enough, this could go on for a good long while.  I have no idea if that game is going to be any good or not, but if its something decent, EvE could get a boost.  Of course this is all speculation. 

     

    EvE could do a hundred things to totally overhaul the game if they had too.  Its far from dead.  Its not going anywhere for the time being.  

    It isn't 'dead' but the problem is that the players activity chart has been static for the past 2 years and the numbers show a slight decrease now.

    This is a huge issue as how many man-hours/money did CCP throw at EVE and have it have no impact over the past 2 years is bad. Really really bad.

    Now the gaming media is reporting the 'Mittani's blog post as 'CSM Chairman calls CCP out'. This will have a negative impact, just like the monocle-gate had.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • HazelleHazelle Member Posts: 760

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Mittani being elected into CSM was the worst thing to happen EVE.

    Troll will be troll and drama queen will be a drama queen...



    I have no issues with him running his mouth as a player and qq on kugu or wherever but it is unacceptable to do as CSM member.

    Why is it 'unacceptable'?

    CSM is there to represent the playerbase and I agree with Mittani in that 'Where the F--- are the spaceships?!'

     

    Fun Fact, the 0.0 Null Sec blog is cut content from the DOMINION expansion. By Seleene, Former EVE-Online dev and now CSM member.

    Dev Blog

    http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=946

     

    Seleene Quote

    http://www.eve-radio.com/

    6th of Sept interview with Funkybacon.

     

     Who cares what it was cut from - it needs to be worked on and has been discussed by CCP and the playerbase for the past month.

    His time to complain was as soon as he became a CSM.  Now that they're already focusing on on the space part of the game he complains that they're not focusing on the space part of the game?

    It would be like me suggesting to you right now that you should make a thread about this issue.

  • CorehavenCorehaven Member UncommonPosts: 1,533

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by Corehaven

    I dont know or really care all that much about what you guys are talking about, since I havent played EvE for about 3 months, but for EvE to die? 

     

    Dust has to die.  Its not even out yet.  If that does well enough, this could go on for a good long while.  I have no idea if that game is going to be any good or not, but if its something decent, EvE could get a boost.  Of course this is all speculation. 

     

    EvE could do a hundred things to totally overhaul the game if they had too.  Its far from dead.  Its not going anywhere for the time being.  

    It isn't 'dead' but the problem is that the players activity chart has been static for the past 2 years and the numbers show a slight decrease now.

    This is a huge issue as how many man-hours/money did CCP throw at EVE and have it have no impact over the past 2 years is bad. Really really bad.

    Now the gaming media is reporting the 'Mittani's blog post as 'CSM Chairman calls CCP out'. This will have a negative impact, just like the monocle-gate had.

    Okay.....they need to just stop MESSING WITH IT. 

     

    CCP just needs to leave it alone at least until Dust releases.  Otherwise they'll kill two birds with one stone.  Both birds being the hens that lay the golden eggs. 

     

    I dont know why they decided to make these sorts of drastic changes now.   Just wait and do it till after the shooter game you have based on "EvE" releases.   Optimaly would have been never mess with it in this way, but if you just have too, wait until Dust releases. 

     

    Its just good business sense.  Who is running this developer?

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Hazelle

    Originally posted by jpnz


    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Mittani being elected into CSM was the worst thing to happen EVE.

    Troll will be troll and drama queen will be a drama queen...



    I have no issues with him running his mouth as a player and qq on kugu or wherever but it is unacceptable to do as CSM member.

    Why is it 'unacceptable'?

    CSM is there to represent the playerbase and I agree with Mittani in that 'Where the F--- are the spaceships?!'

     

    Fun Fact, the 0.0 Null Sec blog is cut content from the DOMINION expansion. By Seleene, Former EVE-Online dev and now CSM member.

    Dev Blog

    http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=946

     

    Seleene Quote

    http://www.eve-radio.com/

    6th of Sept interview with Funkybacon.

     

     Who cares what it was cut from - it needs to be worked on and has been discussed by CCP and the playerbase for the past month.

    His time to complain was as soon as he became a CSM.  Now that they're already focusing on on the space part of the game he complains that they're not focusing on the space part of the game?

    It would be like me suggesting to you right now that you should make a thread about this issue.

    It was cut content from an expansion released 21 months ago.

    So, nothing was done for 21 months and just now they release a dev-blog rehasing the cut content as 'new' by saying 'Hey, this is what MIGHT be in this winter's expansion!'.

    Ehh.. yeah.

    Notice the 'might' and the fact Seleene/Trebor calls them out by saying 'there is no way the resources you've allocated is enough to release this by winter of this year'

    I'm not a staff of CCP so I don't know but I believe Seleene is telling the truth.

     

    You can choose not to believe him (and the entire CSM) but then you'll probably dismiss the CSM claim (and the subsequent news articles) anyway.

     

    I don't know man, with the monocle-gate and the fact CCP are dressing up cut content from an exp 21 months ago as new content, my trust in CCP is nil. 

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by jpnz

    Why is it 'unacceptable'?

    CSM is not there to actively participate on game development, CSM has no responsibility for game development either, thus it does not pertain to CSM member to criticize how CCP is developing their game.

    You might not agree with CCP decisions but you still aid them the best you can because CSM is about constructive feedback, not a political agenda.

    CSM is no more than feedback channel but Mittani only use the acquired position to promote his own self.

    CCP give good deal of trust to CSM and Mittani is only taking said trust and slaps CCP back with it.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by jpnz

    It isn't 'dead' but the problem is that the players activity chart has been static for the past 2 years and the numbers show a slight decrease now.
    This is a huge issue as how many man-hours/money did CCP throw at EVE and have it have no impact over the past 2 years is bad. Really really bad.
    Now the gaming media is reporting the 'Mittani's blog post as 'CSM Chairman calls CCP out'. This will have a negative impact, just like the monocle-gate had.

    1) Subs are rising for last 2 years. Period.

    2) It might be a huge issue but none of your concern. It is CCP running the company, not you nor CSM.

    3) Only negative impact, if there is even any, is caused by drama queens like Mittani.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Corehaven

     

    Okay.....they need to just stop MESSING WITH IT. 

     

    CCP just needs to leave it alone at least until Dust releases.  Otherwise they'll kill two birds with one stone.  Both birds being the hens that lay the golden eggs. 

     

    I dont know why they decided to make these sorts of drastic changes now.   Just wait and do it till after the shooter game you have based on "EvE" releases.   Optimaly would have been never mess with it in this way, but if you just have too, wait until Dust releases. 

     

    Its just good business sense.  Who is running this developer?

    Actually, the CSM is calling for some fundamentally change of view.

    Their financial records from the 2010 show that EVE made 44M(ish) USD of which 4M was put back into EVE.

    Guess where the other 40M went?

    Yep! Dust and WoD!

    The CSM is calling CCP to change that. 'EVE isn't a cash-cow to just fund Dust and WoD.'

     

    The perception from EVE players (current and ex) are that they are paying to fund Dust and WoD, not EVE. This is true to an extend since only 10% of the money was put back into EVE.

    CCP is a private company so they can do what they want but as a paying customer, the customers can voice their dis-satisfaction. Right now, the numbers are showing exactly what CCP/CSM doesn't want, no increase in player-activity for 2 years.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz



    It isn't 'dead' but the problem is that the players activity chart has been static for the past 2 years and the numbers show a slight decrease now.

    This is a huge issue as how many man-hours/money did CCP throw at EVE and have it have no impact over the past 2 years is bad. Really really bad.

    Now the gaming media is reporting the 'Mittani's blog post as 'CSM Chairman calls CCP out'. This will have a negative impact, just like the monocle-gate had.




     

    1) Subs are rising for last 2 years. Period.

    2) It might be a huge issue but none of your concern. It is CCP running the company, not you nor CSM.

    3) Only negative impact, if there is even any, is caused by drama queens like Mittani.

    To be technically correct, 2.4% actually so yeah..... How much did Incarna cost again?

     

    So tell me exactly what (as an EVE player), I should hate Mittani for?

    He seems to be saying to CCP 'hey where the F--- are the spaceships?!'

    If the media is going to link it and post their stories, well that's not the CSM or Mittani's fault.

    In the end, if this pressures CCP to allocate more resources to the 'spaceship' part of EVE, its a good thing for the EVE's playerbase.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by jpnz

    Actually, the CSM is calling for some fundamentally change of view.
    Their financial records from the 2010 show that EVE made 44M(ish) USD of which 4M was put back into EVE.
    Guess where the other 40M went?
    Yep! Dust and WoD!
    The CSM is calling CCP to change that. 'EVE isn't a cash-cow to just fund Dust and WoD.'
     
    The perception from EVE players (current and ex) are that they are paying to fund Dust and WoD, not EVE. This is true to an extend since only 10% of the money was put back into EVE.
    CCP is a private company so they can do what they want but as a paying customer, the customers can voice their dis-satisfaction. Right now, the numbers are showing exactly what CCP/CSM doesn't want, no increase in player-activity for 2 years.

    1) They(I guess you mean Mittani) might call whatever they want, it only shows how out of place members they are.

    2) Again, financial state and resource allocation is non of your or CSM concern.

    3) It is not a perception of EVE players, it is your perception. Stop generalizing your own thoughts by extending them to others. And again, any CSM member doing so is showing how out of place the member (s)he is.

  • qazymanqazyman Member Posts: 1,785

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz



    Why is it 'unacceptable'?




     

    CSM is not there to actively participate on game development, CSM has no responsibility for game development either, thus it does not pertain to CSM member to criticize how CCP is developing their game.

    You might not agree with CCP decisions but you still aid them the best you can because CSM is about constructive feedback, not a political agenda.

     

    CSM is no more than feedback channel but Mittani only use the acquired position to promote his own self.

    CCP give good deal of trust to CSM and Mittani is only taking said trust and slaps CCP back with it.

     

    I pretty sure that most major null sec power blocks feel exactly the same.

    If CCP can develop a game without the CSM, I think they will. If not, they better polish those social skills.

    I do think that it's possible for the two groups to work together and improve the game. This isn't WOW, in EVE players create the best parts of the game.

    I'm just not sure if either side is willing to give up the things they will have to give up, or if CCP even needs the CSM anymore.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz



    Actually, the CSM is calling for some fundamentally change of view.

    Their financial records from the 2010 show that EVE made 44M(ish) USD of which 4M was put back into EVE.

    Guess where the other 40M went?

    Yep! Dust and WoD!

    The CSM is calling CCP to change that. 'EVE isn't a cash-cow to just fund Dust and WoD.'

     

    The perception from EVE players (current and ex) are that they are paying to fund Dust and WoD, not EVE. This is true to an extend since only 10% of the money was put back into EVE.

    CCP is a private company so they can do what they want but as a paying customer, the customers can voice their dis-satisfaction. Right now, the numbers are showing exactly what CCP/CSM doesn't want, no increase in player-activity for 2 years.




     

    1) They(I guess you mean Mittani) might call whatever they want, it only shows how out of place members they are.

    2) Again, financial state and resource allocation is non of your or CSM concern.

    3) It is not a perception of EVE players, it is your perception. Stop generalizing your own thoughts by extending them to others. And again, any CSM member doing so is showing how out of place the member (s)he is.

     

    It actually isn't a 'perception' as much as fact which is an even bigger problem.

    If 10% of the sub money is going back to the game people are playing, can you really blame anyone if they say 'Why am I funding Dust/WoD?'

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by jpnz
    How much did Incarna cost again?
     
    So tell me exactly what (as an EVE player), I should hate Mittani for?
    He seems to be saying to CCP 'hey where the F--- are the spaceships?!'
    If the media is going to link it and post their stories, well that's not the CSM or Mittani's fault.
    In the end, if this pressures CCP to allocate more resources to the 'spaceship' part of EVE, its a good thing for the EVE's playerbase.

    1) How much it cost is irrelevant, again, expenses of CCP is none of your concern.

    However, it is important to point out that Incarna is considerable but long term investment. Nothing wrong if it did not brought instant sub increase, it is not that type of content.

    2) He has no right to speak like that in the first place as I pointed out.

    3) It is his fault for writing such a pile of rubbish while being a CSM member, fully his fault and responsibility.

    4) CCP resources allocation is none of CSM concerns. If you want to make a pressure there, sign up to CCP recruitment instead of CSM.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by jpnz

    It actually isn't a 'perception' as much as fact which is an even bigger problem.
    If 10% of the sub money is going back to the game people are playing, can you really blame anyone if they say 'Why am I funding Dust/WoD?'

    What part of: "CCP resources allocation is none of your concern" you do not understand?

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by qazyman

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz



    Why is it 'unacceptable'?





     

    CSM is not there to actively participate on game development, CSM has no responsibility for game development either, thus it does not pertain to CSM member to criticize how CCP is developing their game.

    You might not agree with CCP decisions but you still aid them the best you can because CSM is about constructive feedback, not a political agenda.

     

    CSM is no more than feedback channel but Mittani only use the acquired position to promote his own self.

    CCP give good deal of trust to CSM and Mittani is only taking said trust and slaps CCP back with it.

     

    I pretty sure that most major null sec power blocks feel exactly the same.

    If CCP can develop a game without the CSM, I think they will. If not, they better polish those social skills.

    I do think that it's possible for the two groups to work together and improve the game. This isn't WOW, in EVE players create the best parts of the game.

    I'm just not sure if either side is willing to give up the things they will have to give up, or if CCP even needs the CSM anymore.

    I must have missed the memo where a player (or a group of players/ or a player that a group chose to represent them) can not voice their concerns to a company that they paid to access a service.

    If I send an email to CCP cause their game crashed again saying 'please fix this' and the media somehow ran a news story on it, why should anyone have a problem with that?

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz

    How much did Incarna cost again?

     

    So tell me exactly what (as an EVE player), I should hate Mittani for?

    He seems to be saying to CCP 'hey where the F--- are the spaceships?!'

    If the media is going to link it and post their stories, well that's not the CSM or Mittani's fault.

    In the end, if this pressures CCP to allocate more resources to the 'spaceship' part of EVE, its a good thing for the EVE's playerbase.




     

    1) How much it cost is irrelevant, again, expenses of CCP is none of your concern.

    However, it is important to point out that Incarna is considerable but long term investment. Nothing wrong if it did not brought instant sub increase, it is not that type of content.

    2) He has no right to speak like that in the first place as I pointed out.

    3) It is his fault for writing such a pile of rubbish while being a CSM member, fully his fault and responsibility.

    4) CCP resources allocation is none of CSM concerns. If you want to make a pressure there, sign up to CCP recruitment instead of CSM.

    So let me get this straight, the player that got the most votes (hey, democracy is good, right?) can't say anything bad to CCP.

    Does that extend to me?

    What if I write a blog saying 'EVE client Crashed AGAIN!' and the media links and runs a story on it?

    It is somehow my responsiblity that the media ran a story on my blog? huh?

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz



    It actually isn't a 'perception' as much as fact which is an even bigger problem.

    If 10% of the sub money is going back to the game people are playing, can you really blame anyone if they say 'Why am I funding Dust/WoD?'




     

    What part of: "CCP resources allocation is none of your concern" you do not understand?

    Huh? Wha? Who you're to boss people what is of their concern or not?

    Eve players are and will comment , voice and give opinions on CCP resource allocation , on how they develop game , how they menage community , what are they plans and many other things.

    CCP and you as well will have to live with it.

  • qazymanqazyman Member Posts: 1,785

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by qazyman


    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz



    Why is it 'unacceptable'?





     

    CSM is not there to actively participate on game development, CSM has no responsibility for game development either, thus it does not pertain to CSM member to criticize how CCP is developing their game.

    You might not agree with CCP decisions but you still aid them the best you can because CSM is about constructive feedback, not a political agenda.

     

    CSM is no more than feedback channel but Mittani only use the acquired position to promote his own self.

    CCP give good deal of trust to CSM and Mittani is only taking said trust and slaps CCP back with it.

     

    I pretty sure that most major null sec power blocks feel exactly the same.

    If CCP can develop a game without the CSM, I think they will. If not, they better polish those social skills.

    I do think that it's possible for the two groups to work together and improve the game. This isn't WOW, in EVE players create the best parts of the game.

    I'm just not sure if either side is willing to give up the things they will have to give up, or if CCP even needs the CSM anymore.

    I must have missed the memo where a player (or a group of players/ or a player that a group chose to represent them) can not voice their concerns to a company that they paid to access a service.

    If I send an email to CCP cause their game crashed again saying 'please fix this' and the media somehow ran a news story on it, why should anyone have a problem with that?

    I just don't think any of that matters. Because of the sandbox nature of EVE, both of these groups have a great deal of power over the course of the game.

    They are either going to work together, or the game is going to go in a new direction. If CCP thinks they can make money without the support of the major ingame players, I think they will.

    I don't have a problem with what was said. I think these things should have been obvious a year ago.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by qazyman

     

    I just don't think any of that matters. Because of the sandbox nature of EVE, both of these groups have a great deal of power over the course of the game.

    They are either going to work together, or the game is going to go in a new direction. If CCP thinks they can make money without the support of the major ingame players, I think they will.

    I don't have a problem with what was said. I think these things should have been obvious a year ago.

    Actually TEAM BFF is a direct result of the media blitz that happened 18months ago or something.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by jpnz

    I must have missed the memo where a player (or a group of players/ or a player that a group chose to represent them) can not voice their concerns to a company that they paid to access a service.
    If I send an email to CCP cause their game crashed again saying 'please fix this' and the media somehow ran a news story on it, why should anyone have a problem with that?

    Because if you write to CCP, you write is as anonymous customer. The difference is when you are a CSM.

    The institution of CSM is to provide feedback and dialogue. It is a practical as well as very friendly move from CCP. CSM members are provided with internal information not available to public and invited for dialogue. This represents great deal of trust they put in CSM.


    The trust must go both ways, pissing on CCP door as soon as the tour around their workplace is over is not really a case though...

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by Sulaa

    Huh? Wha? Who you're to boss people what is of their concern or not?
    Eve players are and will comment , voice and give opinions on CCP resource allocation , on how they develop game , how they menage community , what are they plans and many other things.
    CCP and you as well will have to live with it.

    Sure, comment as much as you want but that still makes it poking nose into things that are non of your concern.


  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jpnz



    I must have missed the memo where a player (or a group of players/ or a player that a group chose to represent them) can not voice their concerns to a company that they paid to access a service.

    If I send an email to CCP cause their game crashed again saying 'please fix this' and the media somehow ran a news story on it, why should anyone have a problem with that?




     

    Because if you write to CCP, you write is as anonymous customer. The difference is when you are a CSM.

    The institution of CSM is to provide feedback and dialogue. It is a practical as well as very friendly move from CCP. CSM members are provided with internal information not available to public and invited for dialogue. This represents great deal of trust they put in CSM.



    The trust must go both ways, pissing on CCP door as soon as the tour around their workplace is over is not really a case though...

    I don't think this 'trust' is going both ways.

    How's the whole 'emergency summit' meeting minutes debacle doing again?

    Yeah, the one where CCP re-wrote it (putting words into CSM's mouth) and tried to get it signed by CSM.

    Speaking of which, why was there an 'emergency summit' in the first place?

     

    What if it is a blog? It has my name but I'm just expressing my concern on it. If a media site decides to run with it, whatever, not my problem.

     

    Trust, CSM role, CCP whatever. The bottom line is that the media finds this issue newsworthy and EVE is once again, in the headlines. All for the wrong reasons. 

    Jeez, how long ago was monocle-gate!

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

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