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Eve is a Sandbox right? Well if Eve had a level system would it still be?

MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,160

I had a discussion with my friend on this topic of what a themepark mmo is. my argument is simple; Themepark MMO are sandbox mmo with lots of Developer made contents.

what I notice from playing Rift, that there is a short moment of leveling a character to max level, when I ask myself "Ok I am max level, now what I do?"

Well isnt that the same question many people ask when they play a sandbox game with freedom to do as you like? Thats when I realized that "Endgame" is only something we do once we reach the maximum level within a game. But once that is reached, doesnt the player have the freedom to do whatever they like just like a sandbox mmo?



back to the topic question:

if a game like Eve had levels at first, but once at max level (for sake of question, lets pretend the max level is 40) the game is the same as it currently is.



Would the Eve game in this new way no longer be a sandbox?



to me, the game would seem themepark like while leveling, but for players that are level 40 (endgame) wouldnt the game be sandbox, since its basically the same game as it currently is?





Note: this not a argument on whether this would be a good idea to add to Eve or not. This is also not a argument on whether or not this would ever happen.

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Comments

  • PyrostasisPyrostasis Member UncommonPosts: 2,293

    Sandbox doesnt mean doing what you like persay, cause in all mmo's you "do what you like"....if thats raiding or pvp or pve.

    Sandbox's allow users to dynamically create content for themselves with "sand" and the developers simply provide the mechanics or tools for the players to do this with.

    In rift as your example you get to 40 and then thats that. You can farm artifacts, raid, or warfront grind but thats really all there is do to. Character development is limited to pve or pvp gear and player driven content is non existent its simply raids or warfronts.

    In eve, you have some generate content such as missions and incursions, exploration etc... however players have direct control over their and others play experience.

    Every item in game for the most part is player crafted. Someone mined the ore to smelt into minerals to make weapons / components out of to produce the ship that killed you.

    This level of player input opens a ton of doors.

    EvE could stop content patches right now and players could literally keep themselves entertained for years with 0.0 conquests, propoganda, spys, market manipulation, market pvp, trade, business investments, scams, etc etc.

    Rift if it stopped putting content into the game would die relatively quickly as there is no way to dynamicly create content.

    So to sum it up and TLDR.

    Theme park the devs make the rides, you ride them, they make more....rinse and repeat.

    Sandbox the devs make the tools the players make the content, occasionally the devs provide more sand, and the players do with it how they wish.

     

    **Edit

    To answer your question about levels, for eve to work levels would never end, and as long as the rest was there it would still be sandbox, however, levels would be extremely funky based on how the game works.

  • SagasaintSagasaint Member UncommonPosts: 466

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I had a discussion with my friend on this topic of what a themepark mmo is. my argument is simple; Themepark MMO are sandbox mmo with lots of Developer made contents.

    thats a bit oversimplified.

    the point in a sandbox is "free reign". themepark games funnel you into the "right" zones for you and prevent (or plain stops) you from going ahead.

     

    a simple example

    in a themepark game you would go to a lvl20 dungeon at lvl 7 and when you tried to step in, a magical crystal wall would stop you and a message would pop in your UI "You need to be level 20 to enter this dungeon"

     

    in a sandbox you would get right in, and as you explore the surroundings a lvl 20 elite mob would appear and smash your face.

     

    theres no handholding in sandboxes. theres no limits to where you can go,when you can go, or what you can do when you are there.

    or there shouldnt be, anyway...

  • PyscoJuggaloPyscoJuggalo Member UncommonPosts: 1,114

    Eve has a level system....  Every skill has five levels and levels are needed to use various componants and ships.

    image
    --When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
    --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
    --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
    --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

     

    MMOExposed, you would have to define what is being levelled up in order for anyone to answer that question. "A level system" is rather nebulous and, as the above poster pointed out, training skills in its current state is a form of levelling.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419

    if wow didnt have levels it would still largely be a themepark game. its not 1 thing.

    a game can not actually truly be 1 or the other, especially when you consider everyone's differing opinion on what defines each.

    either way, a sandbox game is always going to have limitations and a themepark game is always going to have some freedoms. it's quite impossible to code perfectly in this respect.

    more importantly, the two types of games DO NOT have to be mutually exclusive. it's just much easier to be a troll when you pretend they are.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • kilunkilun Member UncommonPosts: 777

    Not sure, but I'll use your example of Rift.

    You do get to do what you want, but the gameplay is rather limited.  Its very linear.  You have choices of helping other people, artifact hunt, play the market short of endgame Instance/raid tier grind or pvp.  That all you really can do.  I guess you could sit in town and be a town idiot if you desire but the whole game revolves around combat 100% of the time.  No social items in it.

    Take for instance pre-cu SWG:  I wasn't limited by levels.  Creatures/NPCs were just harder to kill.  I could go on a shopping spree in one of the many player created towns, go find new spawns of resources, craft items for players, rearranged my house and make some cool interiors, go to a cantina and socialize, go to space and do combat.  Many other things(one of the reasons why I played for 2years until its demise in my eyes)

    Introduce levels after the CU:  You could no longer go hunt anywhere with anyone regardless of your time in game or your skill level.  Even a crafter could pick up a pistol and go on a dragon hunt/Rancor hunt for pearls/hide,etc previously.  The game developers decided this was unacceptable and put in levels to limit what players could do in specific areas of the game.  Artificial limitations set in for no apparent reasoning IMO for something that was open to all.

    To me, sandbox is defined as how social of a game is it?  If the whole purpose is just to go kill kill kill the majority of my time spent ingame, then it really isn't a great sandbox.  Social aspects keep people hooked that aren't into "I just finished my last piece of T1 equipment, lets spend the next two months getting T2, then the same for T3" crowd.  I'll maybe finish T1, T2 on the other hand isn't happening.

  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,667

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I had a discussion with my friend on this topic of what a themepark mmo is. my argument is simple; Themepark MMO are sandbox mmo with lots of Developer made contents.

    I completely disagree with your definition of themepark and sandbox in this paragraph, and I think your definition shows that you just have no clue at all about anything relating to mmorpgs. Do you even play these games?

    The terms themepark and sandbox refer more to what activities the players can take in the game, not to whether the content is user or developer created. Generally speaking, themepark games provide the players with far less choice of activities, and provide the players with far fewer tools and options in which to pursue those activities. In a themepark, the game provides the players with handrails or a set path the player should follow. Sandbox games provide players with a ridiculous amount of activities and options on how to pursue those activities, with many tools and options and such, while providing an immersive game world which allows for players to even create new activities.

    what I notice from playing Rift, that there is a short moment of leveling a character to max level, when I ask myself "Ok I am max level, now what I do?"

    Well isnt that the same question many people ask when they play a sandbox game with freedom to do as you like? Thats when I realized that "Endgame" is only something we do once we reach the maximum level within a game. But once that is reached, doesnt the player have the freedom to do whatever they like just like a sandbox mmo?

    Doesn't the player have the freedom to do whatever they like just like a sandbox mmo? Again, I don't see how you could even ask this question. When you're playing rift, are you allowed to build huge cities out in the middle of no where, or create a gigantic trading empire, or create new armor with stats you determine yourself? No, because those gameplay mechanics weren't build into the game. You can only do the activities that the programmers programmed into the game. Killing mobs, harvesting, crafting, maybe a little housing.

    In a sandbox, the programmer has designed the game world in such a way as to allow for player created activities to flourish and be created. In themeparks, programmers do not design their game world in such a way. That's the difference. How you need something so basic to be pointed out to you is a mystery to me.



     back to the topic question:

    if a game like Eve had levels at first, but once at max level (for sake of question, lets pretend the max level is 40) the game is the same as it currently is.



    Would the Eve game in this new way no longer be a sandbox?



    to me, the game would seem themepark like while leveling, but for players that are level 40 (endgame) wouldnt the game be sandbox, since its basically the same game as it currently is?

    If Eve had levels, it wouldn't affect the number of activities the players could do otherwise, so your argument is just not on target. Level has nothing to do with any of this. The difference between sandbox and themepark isn't that themepark has levels. You can have a sandbox with levels. Many sandboxes don't have levels though since it usually makes more sense, given the world design, to not have levels in a sandbox game. Note that there are many exceptions to this, such as SWG or Ryzom.





    Note: this not a argument on whether this would be a good idea to add to Eve or not. This is also not a argument on whether or not this would ever happen.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,160
    OK. Each level opens up more of the map by 2.5% per level. Max level had full access to the total map.

    Lets put it like that. So a level 40 player has full access to the game like currently, while a starter player has much less and levels to get to the full game which is at end game. Would Eve now be themepark?

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  • etlaretlar Member UncommonPosts: 796

    lol you are all right, becaues you all mention something thats core to a sandbox. but there is really only one true

    statement, as i see it, in these posts, and thats this: 

     

    "it does not matter if there are levels,  , with no new content, players can still continue for years, unlike themeparks, that depends on it, because here players can create their own content."

     

    the above is a combination of what u all said, (might have forgotten something, its friday dammit) 

    so to the OP: i hope that tells you that a themepark, is a great and fun game,,

    and a sandbox, is a great and fun world.

  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,667

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    OK. Each level opens up more of the map by 2.5% per level. Max level had full access to the total map.



    Lets put it like that. So a level 40 player has full access to the game like currently, while a starter player has much less and levels to get to the full game which is at end game. Would Eve now be themepark?

    What are you trying to accomplish by asking this? I mean that question genuinely, not with hostility. Are you trying to see how much of Eve online you would have to change for people to consider it a themepark instead of a sandbox? I don't understand what you're getting at, so please tell me, what are you getting at?

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,160
    So there is no difference between a Sandbox Game and Sandbox World?
    Also a player said something about building a house as a requirements to a Sandbox. But ES:O is sandbox yet doesn't allow player building. Just saying

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  • etlaretlar Member UncommonPosts: 796

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    OK. Each level opens up more of the map by 2.5% per level. Max level had full access to the total map.



    Lets put it like that. So a level 40 player has full access to the game like currently, while a starter player has much less and levels to get to the full game which is at end game. Would Eve now be themepark?

    No, because you can go to the "endgame" as soon as you make you char in EvE, i dont think you get it, sorry, no offence.

    my best friend dont get it, he thinks im babbling when im telling him there is no endgame, there is a sci-fi world. simple.

    its not a quest game, its a do or dont game :)

  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,667

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    So there is no difference between a Sandbox Game and Sandbox World?

    Also a player said something about building a house as a requirements to a Sandbox. But ES:O is sandbox yet doesn't allow player building. Just saying

    No game is pure sandbox. No game is pure themepark.

    The words "sandbox" and "themepark" are not officially defined anywhere, and there are no absolute definitions that everyone agrees on. There are no requirements to be a sandbox or a themepark. There are only characteristics which are common to each.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,160
    @Jim what I am trying to expose is this idea of levels(not skill based here) in a mmo doesn't make the game into a themepark. I used eve as an example since its a popular sandbox mmo.

    In my opinion "endgame" in themepark mmo is an illusion. Nobody forces you to play a certain way at endgame. To be honest, you have freedom yo do as you like.
    Player tend to do what the developers put into the game, even if they have the freedom not to. For example, why do so many people try to Raid in Rift and WoW yet they hate raiding. So why do that than? Where the force?

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,160
    @etlar

    Well in a themepark mmo, what is "endgame"?

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  • etlaretlar Member UncommonPosts: 796

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    @Jim what I am trying to expose is this idea of levels(not skill based here) in a mmo doesn't make the game into a themepark. I used eve as an example since its a popular sandbox mmo.



    In my opinion "endgame" in themepark mmo is an illusion. Nobody forces you to play a certain way at endgame. To be honest, you have freedom yo do as you like.

    Player tend to do what the developers put into the game, even if they have the freedom not to. For example, why do so many people try to Raid in Rift and WoW yet they hate raiding. So why do that than? Where the force?

    you answered your onw question.

    because so far in themeparks you can only raid or do "battlegrounds" to "progress"

  • etlaretlar Member UncommonPosts: 796

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    @etlar



    Well in a themepark mmo, what is "endgame"?

    for me, endgame is raiding abit, then re-rolling, and quitting, sadly :) in the classic themepark scenario:)

     

    or doing dailies, which i dont, or pvp in battlegrounds, which i do, until it gets to repetetive. :)

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,160
    So a themepark without raiding isn't a themepark?
    the stuff you listed wasn't in vanilla wow for example. Does that mean it had no endgame? If so, wouldn't that made early WoW a sandbox mmo?

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  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,667

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    So a themepark without raiding isn't a themepark?

    the stuff you listed wasn't in vanilla wow for example. Does that mean it had no endgame? If so, wouldn't that made early WoW a sandbox mmo?

    I already addressed this in my post above where I write in blue. Go read it again, then read my other posts. You are ignoring most of what I typed. You haven't replied to 90% of what I said.

  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,392

    Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

    Eve has a level system....  Every skill has five levels and levels are needed to use various componants and ships.

    QFT.

     

    But people are easily fooled.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668

     I don't believe vanilla wow was any closer to being sandbox, even with your premises.

     

     Wow suffered in progression as most other 'themepark' mmos, the lack of freedom and I'll elaborate. Your basic goal before reaching lvl cap was to quest and grind to gain those lvls. Crafting was limited by what lvl you were so you could not go beyond that limit unless you went up in physical lvl, thus you were limited.

      EVE does not limit your crafting progression by way of any other factor but expertise lvl and materials. It is not dependent on any other factor, like physical lvls, to advance. Just like being a trader, you don't need to progress in killing things just those skills needed.

    Rift, WoW, and most other 'themeparks' require you to grind lvls before you can achieve the same progression in crafting, harvesting, etc. You can't stay at lvl 1 and harvest and craft lvl 20 items, no matter how try. Eve you can because the skill sets give you the diversity to go in any direction you want to develop.

     

    They all have quests, they all have grind, they all have PvP, but the paths you take to enjoy are very dissimilar as themeparks push you along a 'rail' as some others have said, but sandboxes attempt to give you the freedom to progress how and which way you wish to.

     

     

     

     

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Your definition of a themepark is incorrect, you should re-read the themepark v sandbox thread. They have different core principles. Sticking/removing stuff on top of the core game does not change this. Really this is a dredge up of old questions.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    OK. Each level opens up more of the map by 2.5% per level. Max level had full access to the total map.



    Lets put it like that. So a level 40 player has full access to the game like currently, while a starter player has much less and levels to get to the full game which is at end game. Would Eve now be themepark?

    It's still a sandbox, just converted to a real crappy one. It basically breaks one of the best features whicxh is allowing players of all levels to get together or fight against each other.

    Your presented design doesn't make it a themepark. It makes it a crappy sandbox. However, that's not going to stop people from sidetracking about what a themepark is. ;)

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • generals3generals3 Member Posts: 3,307

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I had a discussion with my friend on this topic of what a themepark mmo is. my argument is simple; Themepark MMO are sandbox mmo with lots of Developer made contents.

    what I notice from playing Rift, that there is a short moment of leveling a character to max level, when I ask myself "Ok I am max level, now what I do?"

    Well isnt that the same question many people ask when they play a sandbox game with freedom to do as you like? Thats when I realized that "Endgame" is only something we do once we reach the maximum level within a game. But once that is reached, doesnt the player have the freedom to do whatever they like just like a sandbox mmo?

    No, not at all. The amount of things you can do in Sandboxes is far greater. On top of that players actually affect the game in sanboxes (this is mainly replicated in 0.0 in EVE).

    In wow you can't upgrade zones or conquer them. You can't set up a "base" in zones either. That's the major difference.



    back to the topic question:

    if a game like Eve had levels at first, but once at max level (for sake of question, lets pretend the max level is 40) the game is the same as it currently is.



    Would the Eve game in this new way no longer be a sandbox?

    It wouldn't matter. One could already see some form of "levels" in EVE. DOn't forget you have skills in EVE. You could basically say reaching the level cap in EVE is having all skills maxed out (good luck with that).



    to me, the game would seem themepark like while leveling, but for players that are level 40 (endgame) wouldnt the game be sandbox, since its basically the same game as it currently is?


     

    If CCP decides to remove WH's, 0.0, POS's and FW Sov (though it is purely cosmetic atm) yes it would become a themepark. Now it ain't.



    Note: this not a argument on whether this would be a good idea to add to Eve or not. This is also not a argument on whether or not this would ever happen.

    Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
    Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.

  • Zookz1Zookz1 Member Posts: 629

    Endgame starts as soon as you log in. If your endgame is pirating in low-sec you go do that. If your endgame is being a trader or industrialist you do that. If you want to go play in 0.0 with a big alliance you buy a Rifter and tackle for the fleet. If you want to be an explorer you do that. It would still be a sandbox with levels, and in a way, there already is a level mechanism in game with the skill system. Themeparks are different because you usually have a very limited set of options once you are at endgame, and all of the content is generated by the developer. None of the content is, as CCP puts it, emergent. In a modern themepark, you either raid or you do instanced PVP. There is nothing else, so the question that players ask themselves once they get to endgame in a themepark is, "Should I raid or PVP or a bit of both?"

     

    In a sandobx the question is much broader. The question becomes, "What can I create with my fellow players?"

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