Ok, maybe currents "MMORPG aren't for us anymore", but still: "we" (players that want slow, challenging, breathing worlds to roleplay) are hundred of thousands if not millions. Plus we've got money ^^
So imho some company should really look into this niche. If they do it right, they'll have all the clients they need and they won't even have to fear competition from Blizzard, as it a totaly different market.
In today's Coyote's Howling, venerable Coyote takes on the notion that all MMOs today are WoW clones and that innovation is rather lacking. Check out Coyote's thoughts about reading quests, deadly zones and something called "corpse zones". Leave us a couple of comments after you're finished reading.
Nobody wants to be different, unique, or risk upsetting the hack-and-slash crowd. They don't want to be new, innovative, or original - they want to be World of Warcraft. They want to copy, clone, and become the game that they envision as "perfect" because it has the largest MMORPG share on the market without ever once considering the ugly truth: Gaming has gone stupid.
This really isn't true, You have Wurm, Xsyon, Mortal online, Darkfall, Minecraft, Eve off the top of my head and If I can come up with six games off the top of my head that are not WoW clones then there are probably quite a bit more as well. The games are out there obviously the author just isn't looking.
Yes, but I don't want things they way they were. One end of the spectrum is no better than the other. Your extreme is no better than theres.
There are really just a couple of simple things that MMOs need to do to improve from WoW.
Give control back to the players. CoH had a great lfg flag system and didn't penalize players for grouping up. Rift also didn't penalize people for grouping up and had a great open grouping system. Dungeon finders are a sloppy solution and only succeed in grouping up bad players, which leads to ...
Teaching players to become better. The games themselves need to help players improve instead of dumbing down content to the lowest common denominator.
Next, amusement park MMOs aren't bad per say, but we've moved into a generation where most menaingful content is instanced. Now, open world contnet does have a number of issues, but that's because ...
The only thing that matters in MMOs is stat enhancing loot. Argue all you want, but many, if not most players play MMOs to become the Southpark guy. MMOs players play to gain an advantage over other players because they have better gear, not because they're better players. Gear isn't a bad way of gating PvE content, but it essentially makes PvP unplayable. PvP in MMO is never going to be fun as long as developers continue to reward the best players with better gear and basically force everyone else to lose/grind out better gear in order to just be competative.
Forcing people to lose in order to eventually just be competative is some of the worst game design that I've ever seen.
Fixing MMO post-WoW:
Gives players more control in forming groups.
Teach players, via in-game systems, to become better. Don't cater to the lowest common denominator.
Add more open world content
Eliminate the gear imabalnces in PvP. The PvE style gear grind doesn't work in PvP. Forcing people to lose isn't fun.
This really isn't true, You have Wurm, Xsyon, Mortal online, Darkfall, Minecraft, Eve off the top of my head and If I can come up with six games off the top of my head that are not WoW clones then there are probably quite a bit more as well. The games are out there obviously the author just isn't looking.
The games you mention have been tried by many of us and have far more problems than the popular old mmorpg games. EQ, as referenced by Coyote, was a bit buggy and is definately dated by today's standards but still had far less bugs than Mortal Online seemingly ever will, looks better than Wurm even before it's graphics were redone, and has far more innovation than Darkfall for it's time. Minecraft isn't even an mmo regardless if you can play it online. Eve might be a viable alternative if you can get around the whole timed skill gain and only existing in a space environment.
Unfortunately, they haven't really made anything to compare with original EQ since vanilla WoW in my opinion. As far as sandbox mmorpgs go only UO and SWG really stand out and from what I've heard again and again SWG was much better Pre-NGE much like UO pre-Trammel. Lately the focus of development teams that have both the funding and people to make a good game has generally been to make a WoWesque game with some new features added in.
This really isn't true, You have Wurm, Xsyon, Mortal online, Darkfall, Minecraft, Eve off the top of my head and If I can come up with six games off the top of my head that are not WoW clones then there are probably quite a bit more as well. The games are out there obviously the author just isn't looking.
The games you mention have been tried by many of us and have far more problems than the popular old mmorpg games. EQ, as referenced by Coyote, was a bit buggy and is definately dated by today's standards but still had far less bugs than Mortal Online seemingly ever will, looks better than Wurm even before it's graphics were redone, and has far more innovation than Darkfall for it's time. Minecraft isn't even an mmo regardless if you can play it online. Eve might be a viable alternative if you can get around the whole timed skill gain and only existing in a space environment.
Unfortunately, they haven't really made anything to compare with original EQ since vanilla WoW in my opinion. As far as sandbox mmorpgs go only UO and SWG really stand out and from what I've heard again and again SWG was much better Pre-NGE much like UO pre-Trammel. Lately the focus of development teams that have both the funding and people to make a good game has generally been to make a WoWesque game with some new features added in.
I actually agree with your points. My argument was with the statement:
"Nobody wants to be different, unique, or risk upsetting the hack-and-slash crowd. They don't want to be new, innovative, or original - they want to be World of Warcraft."
I disagree with that statement because there are companies taking risks and doing something different:
However you are also correct in saying that some of these games can be buggy or have dated graphics or just not compaire to UO or the original EQ.
I personally would love to see a hard core, skill based, fantasy PVE game. Darkfall without the ganking. (Maybe with a little Wurm mixed in) But I doubt I will see it (At least in an MMO, I am looking forward to the new elderscrolls single player game, that is about as close as I will probably get)
""Wha-" you'd start to type out in hopes of asking just the right question, only to lash out and punch him in his fuzz nuggets because you forgot to remap your keys and the letter "a" was defaulted to "auto attack"."
I Lol'd, because I'm pretty sure I did this once or twice myself.
That said, I agree with a lot of this. I miss NPC dialogue that felt like...you know...dialogue. As in "two people talking." Nowadays it's all monologue with a "TLDR" button at the end. And I REMEMBER Kith...I joined right before the event that made it that way. A lot of EQ was punishing that way. It gave you a healthy sense of respect for not doing stupid things and killing your toon. Unfortunately, it was also evil. I remember falling down that stupid hole in the Dwarf throne room in Vellious because it was hard to see, then having NO idea where my corpse was. And then dying 20+ times trying to retrieve it, until eventually I begged a kindly necro to summon it for me. Which wasn't cheap.
I wouldn't mind death feeling more...punishing...but only if it's possible to not have a random droppage of internet or a slight mistake cost you months of playtime because you can't get your gear back.
I remember my first night in SWG, trekking from Bestine to Mos Eisley with a CDEF, giving every critter a wide berth because I didn't know which would be easy and which would kill me and I didn't want my equipment to decay. Eventually I stumlbled on a lair of Bocatts but by pure chance a ranger saved me. I have never had so much fun in a computer game.
I prefer hack-n-slash to people sitting around the camp-fire making up stories about their avatars. I remember these high level toons making up stories and the npcs would just sit there and not interact, and they would "pretend" stuff was going on that wasn't. You don't need to be logged into a mmorpg to "play pretend" role playing games.
Most people are into the hack-n-slash, not into even reading the story-lines of the quests they are doing.
========================== The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
I prefer hack-n-slash to people sitting around the camp-fire making up stories about their avatars. I remember these high level toons making up stories and the npcs would just sit there and not interact, and they would "pretend" stuff was going on that wasn't. You don't need to be logged into a mmorpg to "play pretend" role playing games.
Most people are into the hack-n-slash, not into even reading the story-lines of the quests they are doing.
You're taking it to an extereme. We're not talking the creepy rp people that walk around talking like Ren Faire extras and /bowing to every NPC. We're talking about having a quest mean something more than "click NPC. Click Accept. Move to location marked on map. Kill everything until tracker tells me I'm done. Go back to NPC. Get lewt." Can you read that last sentence and HONESTLY tell me that kind of game play sounds interesting?
I think the ME series had great story, great characters, and great, solid game play - very few if any flaws.
Yes, I definitely agree with you about the universe. Extremely well done.
However, I didn't really feel like I had all that many choices. At first it felt like I did, but then I realized that the only difference in using a new approach would have been to pick up a given character earlier or something like that.
And the side missions were fairly awful.
The story and acting were very good though, and that's why I said I liked it. But again, because I'm not normally a shooter guy and the fact that it didn't feel like an open game, I ended my relationship with the series after 1. I mean, well done and all that, but I'd much rather have had at least some choices other than dialogue options. And choice of GF.
I suppose that's kind of what I mean about an interactive movie. You're along for the ride. Games should be about interesting choices in my view.
And what RPG do you really have choices? lol
Usually it's - "Here's you, the protagonist, this class, here is your party, you get to choose who is active in your party, here is the story - enjoy."
Must be pretty spoiled if ME is a RPG without choices... lol
Have you ever played a Final Fantasy RPG? Yikes...
Not really. Hack & slash is fun. How can something that's fun be stupid?
Let's be perfectly honest : when is the last time you actually stopped to read quest dialogue?
I read all quests... As soon as I stop reading them I uninstall the game. Simple as that.
You were forced to read the dialogue, understand the content and the mission behind the quest, and it truly drew you into the story.
What stops you from reading quests now? The quest markers which can be removed should you CHOOSE to do so? (most of the time anyway)
You might be killing the same ten rats as everyone else, but at least you knew why.
The "old school" MMOs had crappy dialogues too and there was no reasoning behind killing the 10 rats. Too much EQ nostalgia?
No foe is impossible to kill, no zone is deadly for more than a few levels, and there is no real "fear factor" to the game.
This doesn't even make sense. It is some EQ nostalgia I guess... This does not make the game an RPG.
When death came with an actual penalty, the game forced you to stop and think before you acted.
I don't think so. Especially when it's a cheap way of wasting your time. I will never FEAR a game. The only sensation I will get is utter frustration when I lose a gazillion experience/loot which took days to obtain. Simple waste of time which leads to frustration and not fear...
You had to choose your actions wisely, or you'd end up doing the naked corpse run of shame.
Everyone will just avoid playing the game in a risky way which can lead to even more frustration. It gets even worse if you factor in harassment. Was Diablo more fun when you played hardcore? Nope. Everyone was just a chicken and used the very fitting chicken hack...
Which brings me to the most flame inducing thing I've ever written: "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Or maybe it's other way around? MMOs are not for you and the bunch of peeps who feel the same way as you do?
These games were once intended to be virtual worlds and were in a way, intended to be "time sinks"?
That's how you see things. I see MMOs as the equivalent to my Diablo fix. Hack and slash, gear up and have fun with my mates. Why I don't play action RPGs? Well because there aren't any lol except Diablo...
I don't see how your arguments relate to the topic. It all seems like some EQ nostalgia. Everything in this thread has been discussed a gazillion times. There's absolutely nothing new in this topic. EQ nostalgia yet again...
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I think the ME series had great story, great characters, and great, solid game play - very few if any flaws.
Yes, I definitely agree with you about the universe. Extremely well done.
However, I didn't really feel like I had all that many choices. At first it felt like I did, but then I realized that the only difference in using a new approach would have been to pick up a given character earlier or something like that.
And the side missions were fairly awful.
The story and acting were very good though, and that's why I said I liked it. But again, because I'm not normally a shooter guy and the fact that it didn't feel like an open game, I ended my relationship with the series after 1. I mean, well done and all that, but I'd much rather have had at least some choices other than dialogue options. And choice of GF.
I suppose that's kind of what I mean about an interactive movie. You're along for the ride. Games should be about interesting choices in my view.
And what RPG do you really have choices? lol
Usually it's - "Here's you, the protagonist, this class, here is your party, you get to choose who is active in your party, here is the story - enjoy."
Must be pretty spoiled if ME is a RPG without choices... lol
Have you ever played a Final Fantasy RPG? Yikes...
The Fable series, the Fallout Series, the Elder Scrolls series...there are other examples but they tend to be more obscure.
Mind you in your defense, 99% game RPGS have no choice (or just the "choose good or evil so you can get the super goodies at the end of maxing one of those" choices, which are no choice at all). and post-FF7 they're mostly a linear tunnel
It's amazing what happens when you take off the rose colored glasses.
I have a lot of greatly fond memories from my early MMO days in UO - but I also have a lot of fond memories from the years I spent playing WoW.
If anything, by sheer number my WoW memories out weigh the UO memories.
Forced grouping does that to you, I admit, you make friends and have epic adventures. Or big, heated drama filled BS.
LFG dungeon finders etc. are the worst thing to ever happen to the MMO genre, I'll admit to that.
I do remember the corpse runs, having to write off a corpse in a deep dungeon you'd never get back to etc. but at the same time the gear in UO didn't really matter, I had a bank full of replacement armor/weapons - or as a mage all I needed was my death robes (or naked!) and my spell book.
That sense of exploration and wonder? It's still there in modern games. Recently finished all the content/exploration in Gloomwood in Rift and I am going to be sad to leave the zone - so much atmosphere and immersive qualities.
But I've never been to Searing Gorge or whatever the next zone is called, so everything will be new and fresh (and hopefully as beautiful)
The sense of fear? Frustration over death? Trying to avoid it at all costs? It's still there. Ghost runs back to a corpse still suck. Getting killed and having to pay repairs still sucks. Running/riding down a path with a half dozen elite Invasion mobs chasing you is just as terrifying as any mob train from the UO dungeon days.
Trying to solo down an elite Rift bonus boss, kiting and using potions and stuns and every trick in the book to solo this mob is just as terrifying as the old dragon taming adventures we used to have back in UO.
Even the mob invasions of Brittania, the massive invasions in Rift are far deadlier and more fun, holding the line against the onslaught of a Wardstone.
The sense of wonder and grandeur is still there...
And the grinding? There's still a lot of freaking grinding in every MMO ever made lol that hasn't changed and hopefully never will - because of it does, they truly aren't MMOs anymore. They may shorten it or change the grind from the level process and shift it more towards the end game, but grind is still a grind.
I remember the "Power Hours" of skill advacement in UO sitting at the Bone room in some dungeon killing skeletons over and over as they slowly hobbled onto the one tile door way you stood on the other side of hah.
PvP kill squads in the open world, still was doing that in WoW just like in UO. Grab a group of players, go find people to kill, eventually they bring out their back up and the real battles start.
In WoW we'd murder every NPC in a town, especially the quest givers and flight masters just to get all the high level alts/friends/guildies to come out and play!
There was no point, we didn't get much honor to buy gear but it was fun!
Take off the nostalgia glasses, open your eyes to how truly wonderful many of the games out today really can be.
The Fable series, the Fallout Series, the Elder Scrolls series...there are other examples but they tend to be more obscure.
The other thing also is that a lot of RPGs seem to be rather rigidly defined. I tend to play games that aren't straight RPGs but have a lot of those elements (because I like choices. Games that are only stories are, again, sort of like watching TV or a movie - not exactly great GAMES imo). Say something like X-Com UFO Defense where it was a serious bummer to lose a veteran squad member. Or Jagged Alliance. Or even a board game like Hornet: Carrier Operations.
Your characters are an integral part of the game. However, it's a bit different than playing a game where "it's mini-me in there".
Take off the nostalgia glasses, open your eyes to how truly wonderful many of the games out today really can be.
Well, I disagree with many of your points. I've played a crapload of different MMOs and my interest has simply waned.
It's probably a combination of a couple of things. One is, I would still contend that games are much less robust than they used to be. It could be rose colored glasses, but what games are you playing that have actual GM events like EQ had once upon a time? I'm also kind of taken aback at the amount of focus on combat to the exclusion of other things like crafting and socializing. I was spoiled by SWG in that regard.
Even so, I wouldn't go back to pre-CU SWG or pre-Kunark EQ. Sure, they were great then, but they wouldn't be now.
Instead, what I'd really like is a new design and game that used the same structure as SWG. Non-combat class characters AND combat classes and complex multi-tiered crafting with player shops. Also, a GOOD combat system layered on top of that (something SWG never had in any iteration).
But, yeah. I've considered your overall point as well. Maybe I'm just sick of the whole unchanging genre to begin with.
Take off the nostalgia glasses, open your eyes to how truly wonderful many of the games out today really can be.
Well, I disagree with many of your points. I've played a crapload of different MMOs and my interest has simply waned.
It's probably a combination of a couple of things. One is, I would still contend that games are much less robust than they used to be. It could be rose colored glasses, but what games are you playing that have actual GM events like EQ had once upon a time? I'm also kind of taken aback at the amount of focus on combat to the exclusion of other things like crafting and socializing. I was spoiled by SWG in that regard.
Even so, I wouldn't go back to pre-CU SWG or pre-Kunark EQ. Sure, they were great then, but they wouldn't be now.
Instead, what I'd really like is a new design and game that used the same structure as SWG. Non-combat class characters and complex multi-tiered crafting with player shops. Also, a GOOD combat system layered on top of that (something SWG never had in any iteration).
But, yeah. I've considered your overall point as well. Maybe I'm just sick of the whole unchanging genre to begin with.
I certainly see your point and I agree with you on many levels.
Non-combat gameplay is indeed a big part of what made UO and SWG fun and unique in my mind/experiences with them.
The genre has simply gotten too big for things like GM events on a server, there are simply too many servers and too many players in the "big" titles.
The "little" titles are struggling to get by as is, working on fixing the game and getting people to stop fleeing to have the time and resources to do GM events.
That being said I would pay more per month to play on a server or in a game that had GM/CSM hosted live events.
I said it before in another thread, I'd pay 50 bucks a MONTH for a game that had enough GMs/CSMs to do private, Dungeon Master esque private events/custom dungeons etc.
It's just not realistic.
I think Neverwinter, if it turns out to be anything decent, has a lot of potential to change things - give the players the tools like the old Neverwinter Nights to build their own dungeons and events etc.
That's the ONLY way you can keep up with the content players demand to not make these games grindy.
"If everything that makes an MMORPG unique bothers you, the pace isn't quick enough and the instant satisfaction eludes you, why do you play them?"
What makes an MMORPG unique is that there's hundreds or even thousands of players in a shared environment.
It's a broad term, and if your definition of an RPG is reading thousands of lines of text telling you to complete menial tasks in order for you to engross your character in the world you're playing in and more importantly, have fun, then more power to you. I'm sure Commander Shepard and Adam Jenson would disagree.
It's unfair to try and weed players out of the genre entirely because they're not asking for a game that meets your interpretation of what makes an MMORPG, or if you feel they're the source of change in the design of MMO's. Those changes in design are soley the developers folley, as they make the game.
And as far as I know, there's still walls of text in World of Warcraft for you to invest your literary digestion efforts towards. There's also still corpse running, so your thrills of punishment for failure remain. And there's also even RP servers with full population levels, for your fancies of immersion and depth in player interaction.
But saying 'the way I want to play this game runs contrary to how you want to play this game so leave the genre' is shallow, and very hypocritical.
I agree. There are many ways to have fun in an mmorpg and the author seems to think he has the recipe for the best/only way. Rather an arrogant stance, actually.
As a footnote, much as I enjoy my gaming, it does make me laugh how vitriolic people are about what is, after all, a leisure-time activity. Game = fun so relax and enjoy, that's my motto. I could add, enjoy in whatever way you want, even if it is different to mine.
Take off the nostalgia glasses, open your eyes to how truly wonderful many of the games out today really can be.
Well, I disagree with many of your points. I've played a crapload of different MMOs and my interest has simply waned.
It's probably a combination of a couple of things. One is, I would still contend that games are much less robust than they used to be. It could be rose colored glasses, but what games are you playing that have actual GM events like EQ had once upon a time? I'm also kind of taken aback at the amount of focus on combat to the exclusion of other things like crafting and socializing. I was spoiled by SWG in that regard.
Even so, I wouldn't go back to pre-CU SWG or pre-Kunark EQ. Sure, they were great then, but they wouldn't be now.
Instead, what I'd really like is a new design and game that used the same structure as SWG. Non-combat class characters and complex multi-tiered crafting with player shops. Also, a GOOD combat system layered on top of that (something SWG never had in any iteration).
But, yeah. I've considered your overall point as well. Maybe I'm just sick of the whole unchanging genre to begin with.
I certainly see your point and I agree with you on many levels.
Non-combat gameplay is indeed a big part of what made UO and SWG fun and unique in my mind/experiences with them.
The genre has simply gotten too big for things like GM events on a server, there are simply too many servers and too many players in the "big" titles.
The "little" titles are struggling to get by as is, working on fixing the game and getting people to stop fleeing to have the time and resources to do GM events.
That being said I would pay more per month to play on a server or in a game that had GM/CSM hosted live events.
I said it before in another thread, I'd pay 50 bucks a MONTH for a game that had enough GMs/CSMs to do private, Dungeon Master esque private events/custom dungeons etc.
It's just not realistic.
I think Neverwinter, if it turns out to be anything decent, has a lot of potential to change things - give the players the tools like the old Neverwinter Nights to build their own dungeons and events etc.
That's the ONLY way you can keep up with the content players demand to not make these games grindy.
Well I think what we really need, is distancing ourselves from the MMO filled with the instant gratification, carebear and former FPS crowd, finding MMORPWs (Multi-Massive-Role-Play-Worlds). Nowadays every crap game thinks they can be a "MMO" which doesn't even mean something. They are just singleplayer games with coop mode.
Honestly I believe the genre will soon split up into real MMORPGS and other stuff again, the sooner the better I'm so sick off all those dumbed down games targeting the lowest of the lowest comon denominator without any real community.
Give me Everquest or UO pre SoE/NGE anyday of the week, overe the crap called "MMO" at least name it MMOG cause Multi-Massive-Online means nothing.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Well I think what we really need, is distancing ourselves from the MMO filled with the instant gratification, carebear and former FPS crowd, finding MMORPWs (Multi-Massive-Role-Play-Worlds). Nowadays every crap game thinks they can be a "MMO" which doesn't even mean something. They are just singleplayer games with coop mode.
Honestly I believe the genre will soon split up into real MMORPGS and other stuff again, the sooner the better I'm so sick off all those dumbed down games targeting the lowest of the lowest comon denominator without any real community.
Give me Everquest or UO pre SoE/NGE anyday of the week, overe the crap called "MMO" at least name it MMOG cause Multi-Massive-Online means nothing.
Using terms like "dumb down" and "carebear" while talking about "single player with co-op mode' and "lowest common denominator" and "instant gratification" ...
That doesn't help anything and it doesn't help your/our cause.
Neither do rants like the OP, it does nothing to help - only makes you/us seem even more childish, out of touch, and immature.
If we collectively, as a whole, mature up our conversations and our arguments then people might actually start to pay attention.
It's like politics... we, the people, are really sick of all the vitriol, the gotcha-questions, the spin, and the buzz-word catch phrases like a broken record.
Let's have real, grown up conversations and actualy get some where with it.
You might have a point, but just watch official forums people are just crying for dumbed down stuff, especially the PvP crowd they want everything being equal and what not, thats just not what MMORPGS are about.
Thats why I've come up with the idea of splitting the genre into sub genres, so everyone will get their game again. I also heavily agree with the fact, "developers are making the games" no its the damn fat suits telling developers how they've to make the games thats why we've seen so many crap during the last years.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Awesome post one of the best I have seen on MMORPG, I remember the time spent (15 mins or more at the beginning) waiting on a boat in EQ 1, sitting there socializing fishing and making friends, it saddened me when the instant travel thing came in, walking those docks thinking of all the fun times, all those people who made friends even though we bitched about it like waiting for a bus.
Kthicor was terrifying to someone coming out of the vale especially when you saw it just before it went dark for the first time and thought HEY lets explore!.
We have lost so much as mmo's become more generic, more lowest common denominator, the only mmo that has kept my attention since the early days is EVE, I love and embrace the learning cliff, 3 years in and I am still being suprised, my actions have consequences.
You might have a point, but just watch official forums people are just crying for dumbed down stuff, especially the PvP crowd they want everything being equal and what not, thats just not what MMORPGS are about.
Thats why I've come up with the idea of splitting the genre into sub genres, so everyone will get their game again. I also heavily agree with the fact, "developers are making the games" no its the damn fat suits telling developers how they've to make the games thats why we've seen so many crap during the last years.
You have to see though that some of the MMO staples of the past are simply bad game design.
Take, for instance, the combination of full loot PvP, levels, and gear dependance:
-Levels make it so that the higher level will almost always beat the lower level just due to the numbers involved, nothing to do with player skill just simply time investment and patience.
-Gear makes it so the higher level will have an even bigger advantage because they'll have better gear, or even if they are the same "level" the gear will likely be the most contributing factor to victory, not player skill.
-Full loot means that the high levels who kill you gain nothing from doing so but a feeling of gratification similar to stealing candy from babies or stepping on ants as there is nothing you could possibly gain from slaughtering said noob.
Full loot FFA PvP in a game with levels and/or with gear progression is just terrible game design.
Skill progressions like EvE or SWG (or even UO for that matter) are really the same as levels - linear statistical progression.
I mean, these are really basic game design things and people keep trying to emulate but in the end only have one redeeming quality - they are great for masochists and sociopaths.
Not exactly the kind of game I'd want to play or have to market for.
You can do FFA PvP and you can do full loot PvP, but you cannot combine them with any kind of progression mechanics like levels/skills and/or gear because it's only ever fun for 50% of involved parties, and history has proven the 50% getting slaughtered will and do leave.
It's not fun to be a sheep forever in a game of wolves. And the wolves are too scared of losing to ever fight each other.
Only when you put the wolves and sheep on equal ground, remove levels/skill/gear progression - that you actually get the FULL fun and awesomeness that FFA PvP and full loot mechanics can truly offer.
In-game deaths are the games way of telling you not to be an asshat and touch things that are bad, m'kai.
Death/respawn penalties are the games way of telling you "You're still not getting it are you? STOP doing that..."
Personally I'd have people respawn with nothing more than a shirt, a confused look and a vague recollection of having had money and gear right up till that moment when they poked Nagafen with a rusty stick "just to see what happens".
********************* So, you all sat in camps and that was fun? *********************
In-game deaths are the games way of telling you not to be an asshat and touch things that are bad, m'kai.
Death/respawn penalties are the games way of telling you "You're still not getting it are you? STOP doing that..."
Personally I'd have people respawn with nothing more than a shirt, a confused look and a vague recollection of having had money and gear right up till that moment when they poked Nagafen with a rusty stick "just to see what happens".
LMAO!
thank you for my first real laugh in a day or two.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Comments
Ok, maybe currents "MMORPG aren't for us anymore", but still: "we" (players that want slow, challenging, breathing worlds to roleplay) are hundred of thousands if not millions. Plus we've got money ^^
So imho some company should really look into this niche. If they do it right, they'll have all the clients they need and they won't even have to fear competition from Blizzard, as it a totaly different market.
This really isn't true, You have Wurm, Xsyon, Mortal online, Darkfall, Minecraft, Eve off the top of my head and If I can come up with six games off the top of my head that are not WoW clones then there are probably quite a bit more as well. The games are out there obviously the author just isn't looking.
Gaming has gone stupid.
Yes, but I don't want things they way they were. One end of the spectrum is no better than the other. Your extreme is no better than theres.
There are really just a couple of simple things that MMOs need to do to improve from WoW.
Give control back to the players. CoH had a great lfg flag system and didn't penalize players for grouping up. Rift also didn't penalize people for grouping up and had a great open grouping system. Dungeon finders are a sloppy solution and only succeed in grouping up bad players, which leads to ...
Teaching players to become better. The games themselves need to help players improve instead of dumbing down content to the lowest common denominator.
Next, amusement park MMOs aren't bad per say, but we've moved into a generation where most menaingful content is instanced. Now, open world contnet does have a number of issues, but that's because ...
The only thing that matters in MMOs is stat enhancing loot. Argue all you want, but many, if not most players play MMOs to become the Southpark guy. MMOs players play to gain an advantage over other players because they have better gear, not because they're better players. Gear isn't a bad way of gating PvE content, but it essentially makes PvP unplayable. PvP in MMO is never going to be fun as long as developers continue to reward the best players with better gear and basically force everyone else to lose/grind out better gear in order to just be competative.
Forcing people to lose in order to eventually just be competative is some of the worst game design that I've ever seen.
Fixing MMO post-WoW:
Gives players more control in forming groups.
Teach players, via in-game systems, to become better. Don't cater to the lowest common denominator.
Add more open world content
Eliminate the gear imabalnces in PvP. The PvE style gear grind doesn't work in PvP. Forcing people to lose isn't fun.
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
The games you mention have been tried by many of us and have far more problems than the popular old mmorpg games. EQ, as referenced by Coyote, was a bit buggy and is definately dated by today's standards but still had far less bugs than Mortal Online seemingly ever will, looks better than Wurm even before it's graphics were redone, and has far more innovation than Darkfall for it's time. Minecraft isn't even an mmo regardless if you can play it online. Eve might be a viable alternative if you can get around the whole timed skill gain and only existing in a space environment.
Unfortunately, they haven't really made anything to compare with original EQ since vanilla WoW in my opinion. As far as sandbox mmorpgs go only UO and SWG really stand out and from what I've heard again and again SWG was much better Pre-NGE much like UO pre-Trammel. Lately the focus of development teams that have both the funding and people to make a good game has generally been to make a WoWesque game with some new features added in.
I actually agree with your points. My argument was with the statement:
"Nobody wants to be different, unique, or risk upsetting the hack-and-slash crowd. They don't want to be new, innovative, or original - they want to be World of Warcraft."
I disagree with that statement because there are companies taking risks and doing something different:
However you are also correct in saying that some of these games can be buggy or have dated graphics or just not compaire to UO or the original EQ.
I personally would love to see a hard core, skill based, fantasy PVE game. Darkfall without the ganking. (Maybe with a little Wurm mixed in) But I doubt I will see it (At least in an MMO, I am looking forward to the new elderscrolls single player game, that is about as close as I will probably get)
OK first off....
""Wha-" you'd start to type out in hopes of asking just the right question, only to lash out and punch him in his fuzz nuggets because you forgot to remap your keys and the letter "a" was defaulted to "auto attack"."
I Lol'd, because I'm pretty sure I did this once or twice myself.
That said, I agree with a lot of this. I miss NPC dialogue that felt like...you know...dialogue. As in "two people talking." Nowadays it's all monologue with a "TLDR" button at the end. And I REMEMBER Kith...I joined right before the event that made it that way. A lot of EQ was punishing that way. It gave you a healthy sense of respect for not doing stupid things and killing your toon. Unfortunately, it was also evil. I remember falling down that stupid hole in the Dwarf throne room in Vellious because it was hard to see, then having NO idea where my corpse was. And then dying 20+ times trying to retrieve it, until eventually I begged a kindly necro to summon it for me. Which wasn't cheap.
I wouldn't mind death feeling more...punishing...but only if it's possible to not have a random droppage of internet or a slight mistake cost you months of playtime because you can't get your gear back.
just ....... : )
madnessman
I remember my first night in SWG, trekking from Bestine to Mos Eisley with a CDEF, giving every critter a wide berth because I didn't know which would be easy and which would kill me and I didn't want my equipment to decay. Eventually I stumlbled on a lair of Bocatts but by pure chance a ranger saved me. I have never had so much fun in a computer game.
I prefer hack-n-slash to people sitting around the camp-fire making up stories about their avatars. I remember these high level toons making up stories and the npcs would just sit there and not interact, and they would "pretend" stuff was going on that wasn't. You don't need to be logged into a mmorpg to "play pretend" role playing games.
Most people are into the hack-n-slash, not into even reading the story-lines of the quests they are doing.
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
You're taking it to an extereme. We're not talking the creepy rp people that walk around talking like Ren Faire extras and /bowing to every NPC. We're talking about having a quest mean something more than "click NPC. Click Accept. Move to location marked on map. Kill everything until tracker tells me I'm done. Go back to NPC. Get lewt." Can you read that last sentence and HONESTLY tell me that kind of game play sounds interesting?
And what RPG do you really have choices? lol
Usually it's - "Here's you, the protagonist, this class, here is your party, you get to choose who is active in your party, here is the story - enjoy."
Must be pretty spoiled if ME is a RPG without choices... lol
Have you ever played a Final Fantasy RPG? Yikes...
Gaming has gone stupid.
Not really. Hack & slash is fun. How can something that's fun be stupid?
Let's be perfectly honest : when is the last time you actually stopped to read quest dialogue?
I read all quests... As soon as I stop reading them I uninstall the game. Simple as that.
You were forced to read the dialogue, understand the content and the mission behind the quest, and it truly drew you into the story.
What stops you from reading quests now? The quest markers which can be removed should you CHOOSE to do so? (most of the time anyway)
You might be killing the same ten rats as everyone else, but at least you knew why.
The "old school" MMOs had crappy dialogues too and there was no reasoning behind killing the 10 rats. Too much EQ nostalgia?
No foe is impossible to kill, no zone is deadly for more than a few levels, and there is no real "fear factor" to the game.
This doesn't even make sense. It is some EQ nostalgia I guess... This does not make the game an RPG.
When death came with an actual penalty, the game forced you to stop and think before you acted.
I don't think so. Especially when it's a cheap way of wasting your time. I will never FEAR a game. The only sensation I will get is utter frustration when I lose a gazillion experience/loot which took days to obtain. Simple waste of time which leads to frustration and not fear...
You had to choose your actions wisely, or you'd end up doing the naked corpse run of shame.
Everyone will just avoid playing the game in a risky way which can lead to even more frustration. It gets even worse if you factor in harassment. Was Diablo more fun when you played hardcore? Nope. Everyone was just a chicken and used the very fitting chicken hack...
Which brings me to the most flame inducing thing I've ever written: "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Or maybe it's other way around? MMOs are not for you and the bunch of peeps who feel the same way as you do?
These games were once intended to be virtual worlds and were in a way, intended to be "time sinks"?
That's how you see things. I see MMOs as the equivalent to my Diablo fix. Hack and slash, gear up and have fun with my mates. Why I don't play action RPGs? Well because there aren't any lol except Diablo...
I don't see how your arguments relate to the topic. It all seems like some EQ nostalgia. Everything in this thread has been discussed a gazillion times. There's absolutely nothing new in this topic. EQ nostalgia yet again...
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
The Fable series, the Fallout Series, the Elder Scrolls series...there are other examples but they tend to be more obscure.
Mind you in your defense, 99% game RPGS have no choice (or just the "choose good or evil so you can get the super goodies at the end of maxing one of those" choices, which are no choice at all). and post-FF7 they're mostly a linear tunnel
It's amazing what happens when you take off the rose colored glasses.
I have a lot of greatly fond memories from my early MMO days in UO - but I also have a lot of fond memories from the years I spent playing WoW.
If anything, by sheer number my WoW memories out weigh the UO memories.
Forced grouping does that to you, I admit, you make friends and have epic adventures. Or big, heated drama filled BS.
LFG dungeon finders etc. are the worst thing to ever happen to the MMO genre, I'll admit to that.
I do remember the corpse runs, having to write off a corpse in a deep dungeon you'd never get back to etc. but at the same time the gear in UO didn't really matter, I had a bank full of replacement armor/weapons - or as a mage all I needed was my death robes (or naked!) and my spell book.
That sense of exploration and wonder? It's still there in modern games. Recently finished all the content/exploration in Gloomwood in Rift and I am going to be sad to leave the zone - so much atmosphere and immersive qualities.
But I've never been to Searing Gorge or whatever the next zone is called, so everything will be new and fresh (and hopefully as beautiful)
The sense of fear? Frustration over death? Trying to avoid it at all costs? It's still there. Ghost runs back to a corpse still suck. Getting killed and having to pay repairs still sucks. Running/riding down a path with a half dozen elite Invasion mobs chasing you is just as terrifying as any mob train from the UO dungeon days.
Trying to solo down an elite Rift bonus boss, kiting and using potions and stuns and every trick in the book to solo this mob is just as terrifying as the old dragon taming adventures we used to have back in UO.
Even the mob invasions of Brittania, the massive invasions in Rift are far deadlier and more fun, holding the line against the onslaught of a Wardstone.
The sense of wonder and grandeur is still there...
And the grinding? There's still a lot of freaking grinding in every MMO ever made lol that hasn't changed and hopefully never will - because of it does, they truly aren't MMOs anymore. They may shorten it or change the grind from the level process and shift it more towards the end game, but grind is still a grind.
I remember the "Power Hours" of skill advacement in UO sitting at the Bone room in some dungeon killing skeletons over and over as they slowly hobbled onto the one tile door way you stood on the other side of hah.
PvP kill squads in the open world, still was doing that in WoW just like in UO. Grab a group of players, go find people to kill, eventually they bring out their back up and the real battles start.
In WoW we'd murder every NPC in a town, especially the quest givers and flight masters just to get all the high level alts/friends/guildies to come out and play!
There was no point, we didn't get much honor to buy gear but it was fun!
Take off the nostalgia glasses, open your eyes to how truly wonderful many of the games out today really can be.
The other thing also is that a lot of RPGs seem to be rather rigidly defined. I tend to play games that aren't straight RPGs but have a lot of those elements (because I like choices. Games that are only stories are, again, sort of like watching TV or a movie - not exactly great GAMES imo). Say something like X-Com UFO Defense where it was a serious bummer to lose a veteran squad member. Or Jagged Alliance. Or even a board game like Hornet: Carrier Operations.
Your characters are an integral part of the game. However, it's a bit different than playing a game where "it's mini-me in there".
Well, I disagree with many of your points. I've played a crapload of different MMOs and my interest has simply waned.
It's probably a combination of a couple of things. One is, I would still contend that games are much less robust than they used to be. It could be rose colored glasses, but what games are you playing that have actual GM events like EQ had once upon a time? I'm also kind of taken aback at the amount of focus on combat to the exclusion of other things like crafting and socializing. I was spoiled by SWG in that regard.
Even so, I wouldn't go back to pre-CU SWG or pre-Kunark EQ. Sure, they were great then, but they wouldn't be now.
Instead, what I'd really like is a new design and game that used the same structure as SWG. Non-combat class characters AND combat classes and complex multi-tiered crafting with player shops. Also, a GOOD combat system layered on top of that (something SWG never had in any iteration).
But, yeah. I've considered your overall point as well. Maybe I'm just sick of the whole unchanging genre to begin with.
I certainly see your point and I agree with you on many levels.
Non-combat gameplay is indeed a big part of what made UO and SWG fun and unique in my mind/experiences with them.
The genre has simply gotten too big for things like GM events on a server, there are simply too many servers and too many players in the "big" titles.
The "little" titles are struggling to get by as is, working on fixing the game and getting people to stop fleeing to have the time and resources to do GM events.
That being said I would pay more per month to play on a server or in a game that had GM/CSM hosted live events.
I said it before in another thread, I'd pay 50 bucks a MONTH for a game that had enough GMs/CSMs to do private, Dungeon Master esque private events/custom dungeons etc.
It's just not realistic.
I think Neverwinter, if it turns out to be anything decent, has a lot of potential to change things - give the players the tools like the old Neverwinter Nights to build their own dungeons and events etc.
That's the ONLY way you can keep up with the content players demand to not make these games grindy.
I agree. There are many ways to have fun in an mmorpg and the author seems to think he has the recipe for the best/only way. Rather an arrogant stance, actually.
As a footnote, much as I enjoy my gaming, it does make me laugh how vitriolic people are about what is, after all, a leisure-time activity. Game = fun so relax and enjoy, that's my motto. I could add, enjoy in whatever way you want, even if it is different to mine.
Well I think what we really need, is distancing ourselves from the MMO filled with the instant gratification, carebear and former FPS crowd, finding MMORPWs (Multi-Massive-Role-Play-Worlds). Nowadays every crap game thinks they can be a "MMO" which doesn't even mean something. They are just singleplayer games with coop mode.
Honestly I believe the genre will soon split up into real MMORPGS and other stuff again, the sooner the better I'm so sick off all those dumbed down games targeting the lowest of the lowest comon denominator without any real community.
Give me Everquest or UO pre SoE/NGE anyday of the week, overe the crap called "MMO" at least name it MMOG cause Multi-Massive-Online means nothing.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Using terms like "dumb down" and "carebear" while talking about "single player with co-op mode' and "lowest common denominator" and "instant gratification" ...
That doesn't help anything and it doesn't help your/our cause.
Neither do rants like the OP, it does nothing to help - only makes you/us seem even more childish, out of touch, and immature.
If we collectively, as a whole, mature up our conversations and our arguments then people might actually start to pay attention.
It's like politics... we, the people, are really sick of all the vitriol, the gotcha-questions, the spin, and the buzz-word catch phrases like a broken record.
Let's have real, grown up conversations and actualy get some where with it.
You might have a point, but just watch official forums people are just crying for dumbed down stuff, especially the PvP crowd they want everything being equal and what not, thats just not what MMORPGS are about.
Thats why I've come up with the idea of splitting the genre into sub genres, so everyone will get their game again. I also heavily agree with the fact, "developers are making the games" no its the damn fat suits telling developers how they've to make the games thats why we've seen so many crap during the last years.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Awesome post one of the best I have seen on MMORPG, I remember the time spent (15 mins or more at the beginning) waiting on a boat in EQ 1, sitting there socializing fishing and making friends, it saddened me when the instant travel thing came in, walking those docks thinking of all the fun times, all those people who made friends even though we bitched about it like waiting for a bus.
Kthicor was terrifying to someone coming out of the vale especially when you saw it just before it went dark for the first time and thought HEY lets explore!.
We have lost so much as mmo's become more generic, more lowest common denominator, the only mmo that has kept my attention since the early days is EVE, I love and embrace the learning cliff, 3 years in and I am still being suprised, my actions have consequences.
You have to see though that some of the MMO staples of the past are simply bad game design.
Take, for instance, the combination of full loot PvP, levels, and gear dependance:
-Levels make it so that the higher level will almost always beat the lower level just due to the numbers involved, nothing to do with player skill just simply time investment and patience.
-Gear makes it so the higher level will have an even bigger advantage because they'll have better gear, or even if they are the same "level" the gear will likely be the most contributing factor to victory, not player skill.
-Full loot means that the high levels who kill you gain nothing from doing so but a feeling of gratification similar to stealing candy from babies or stepping on ants as there is nothing you could possibly gain from slaughtering said noob.
Full loot FFA PvP in a game with levels and/or with gear progression is just terrible game design.
Skill progressions like EvE or SWG (or even UO for that matter) are really the same as levels - linear statistical progression.
I mean, these are really basic game design things and people keep trying to emulate but in the end only have one redeeming quality - they are great for masochists and sociopaths.
Not exactly the kind of game I'd want to play or have to market for.
You can do FFA PvP and you can do full loot PvP, but you cannot combine them with any kind of progression mechanics like levels/skills and/or gear because it's only ever fun for 50% of involved parties, and history has proven the 50% getting slaughtered will and do leave.
It's not fun to be a sheep forever in a game of wolves. And the wolves are too scared of losing to ever fight each other.
Only when you put the wolves and sheep on equal ground, remove levels/skill/gear progression - that you actually get the FULL fun and awesomeness that FFA PvP and full loot mechanics can truly offer.
In-game deaths are the games way of telling you not to be an asshat and touch things that are bad, m'kai.
Death/respawn penalties are the games way of telling you "You're still not getting it are you? STOP doing that..."
Personally I'd have people respawn with nothing more than a shirt, a confused look and a vague recollection of having had money and gear right up till that moment when they poked Nagafen with a rusty stick "just to see what happens".
*********************
So, you all sat in camps and that was fun?
*********************
LMAO!
thank you for my first real laugh in a day or two.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse