Any games rules are irrelevent under any country's law where the rules say one thing and the law says another, the law wins. As the in game money has real life money worth, it is conceivable that a country's fraud laws could apply to this kind of happenstance. It would need a test case. Or to be more exact a prosecuting authority willing to take any complaint of this nature seriously. Some countries like Korea may well take this seriously, though whether they have jurisdiction is another question. I guess it depends where the scammers are based. Alternatively there is where the game company is based. The company could be accused of aiding and abetting said fraud, perhaps they wouldn't be criminally liable but it could be argued in a civil court...
In real life there are laws against stuff like this. The fact that no such laws exist in the EVE universe means that EVE is actually lawless.
I can't see this as being anything other than a black mark against EVE, at least where the non-hardcore player is concerned.
A bunch of guys put out this "official sounding" statement promising that if people give them some money ("invest") they'll get back a return on it.
That right there should have set off a red-flag for anyone... I'm assuming it did for most.
Hell, I've never even gotten that deep into the game, and *I* realize that there's no binding laws in that game, where those people would be forced to keep their word. There's no 'contracts' or anything of that sort. There's no repercussions for scammers, other than a ruined rep... which they probably don't care about.
People willingly handed over their money to an "organization" whom they had absolutely no reason nor precedent to trust or hold to their word. They simply assumed they would.
They did it - as others have stated - out of greed; likely out of the promise of "getting more money back without having to earn it themselves".
So, they ignored the warning signs, saw $$$ instead, and it cost them.
Lesson learned and perhaps next time they won't be so gullible.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If you see it in local, it is always a scam. It doesn't matter if it's a contract, investment scheme, offer to help, free blowjob advertisement or your mom logged on to get you to come down to dinner. IF IT'S IN LOCAL, IT IS ALWAYS A SCAM.
ROTFLMAO!! Good for you guys! Now don't be stupid and try to ebay that ISK, and you will not end up perma banned like the fellow who ran the galactic bank scam.
I'm not sure that they can't spend the ISK. EVE doesn't have a policy against scammers.
Exactly correct. This will no doubt be ruled totally legitimate by the GM's/Dev's(as it should be). Fools and their money are soon parted. One would think that after the various scams over the years, that people woul have at least *some* common sense.
In real life there are laws against stuff like this. The fact that no such laws exist in the EVE universe means that EVE is actually lawless.
I can't see this as being anything other than a black mark against EVE, at least where the non-hardcore player is concerned.
What some people don't want to acknowledge is that scamming, con-schemes, whatever separates you from your isk are as valid a form of PvP as gang bang gate camps or suicide ganks. And I absolutely agree with someone who posted the remark that victims of scammers are usually greedy people and therefore deserve to be scammed. The way I like to say it is that Every mark deserves his conman.
I figured out in the market in old Everquest what the real meaning of greed is. Some people think that if I invent something valuable or go out and kill some badass mob that drops something valuable and I set a price on it that you can't afford, that makes me greedy. Those people are wrong. If you want something that you don't have the skills to invent or the skills to defeat the mob that drops it but I do and you want me to sell it to you at a price that you set that I don't agree with, I being the one who invested the time to develop the necessary skills, it is you who are greedy, wanting something before you have a right (through earning) to possess it.
And once we agree on a price, if you find a way to get it cheaper later, don't cry to me about cheating you and I won't cry about being cheated by you if I find someone willing to pay even more than you did. The fact that we agreed on a price when the item exchanged hands means the price was a fair price at that moment.
EVE lawless? the laws of EVE are Darwinian. Stupidity is injurious, extreme stupidity is fatal. But if you are lucky , then you will discover what I have, That which kills us makes us stronger.
What does that phrase non-hardcore player mean? if you aren't in EVE because you like what it offers to all level of player, then you should find some non-hardcore game to play instead.
No one can protect you from what you desire, or from what you fear.
In real life there are laws against stuff like this. The fact that no such laws exist in the EVE universe means that EVE is actually lawless.
I can't see this as being anything other than a black mark against EVE, at least where the non-hardcore player is concerned.
You mean like the laws that allow the big banks to make very risky investments, pocket the profits, and dump their losses on the tax players?... There are two BASIC rules to remember in EVE. One, Trust No One. Two, don't fly what you can't afford to replace.
Any games rules are irrelevent under any country's law where the rules say one thing and the law says another, the law wins. As the in game money has real life money worth, it is conceivable that a country's fraud laws could apply to this kind of happenstance. It would need a test case. Or to be more exact a prosecuting authority willing to take any complaint of this nature seriously. Some countries like Korea may well take this seriously, though whether they have jurisdiction is another question. I guess it depends where the scammers are based. Alternatively there is where the game company is based. The company could be accused of aiding and abetting said fraud, perhaps they wouldn't be criminally liable but it could be argued in a civil court...
CCP is based in Iceland... Good luck with any civil actions against them. The Icelandic government (such as it is) isn't likely at all to do more than laugh at any such attempt.
This is what makes eve so great. where in every other mmo the dev's hold you by the hand eve is a true sandbox, there is always consequences, always ways to track and give payback to criminals, remember the casualty trailer.
I have played EVE for 3-4 years now and I have survived in eve, I don't scam and I have my own ethics and morals which guide me. there is only 9 people in eve I trust but and that makes it so much more than any other game out there, after all I have to rely on my own judgement and abilities.
I am now ceo of a very small corp, by choice the numbers are made up of people I have known for 8+ years real life and my wife, we have fun and a sense of accomplishment knowing we have made it in a game that is the only true sandbox.
Next week we'll find out that those were alts of devs.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
In real life there are laws against stuff like this. The fact that no such laws exist in the EVE universe means that EVE is actually lawless.
I can't see this as being anything other than a black mark against EVE, at least where the non-hardcore player is concerned.
good thing its not real life huh? and i hardly see this as a black mark...EVERY game advertises against possible trade scamming and yet it still hapens in every game. the main reason it stands out in EVE is that unlike other games where support weasels will lie to you and ppromise to look into the matter, in EVE if you screw up its YOUR issue. sorry but its not the game's fault the player is broken.
Sure it's all game mechanics and all, but the whole mindset of who can screw who out of the most gear/isk is what killed eve for me. Use to love the game, but like it says, haters gonna hate, and I sure hate what eve evolved into after all these years. Its really a game of greed now, 1 effective spy can topple the biggest of corp's, one person can destroy years of work, it's the biggest thrill in eve anymore, who can be the biggest thief. So if you love back handed, deceptive type games, ignore the space flight part of the game like most do, and just try to be the friendliest/helpful person you can be, earn trust, and topple the big guys once they trust you. When you are bored, you can shoot stuff in your space ship.
Any games rules are irrelevent under any country's law where the rules say one thing and the law says another, the law wins. As the in game money has real life money worth, it is conceivable that a country's fraud laws could apply to this kind of happenstance. It would need a test case. Or to be more exact a prosecuting authority willing to take any complaint of this nature seriously. Some countries like Korea may well take this seriously, though whether they have jurisdiction is another question. I guess it depends where the scammers are based. Alternatively there is where the game company is based. The company could be accused of aiding and abetting said fraud, perhaps they wouldn't be criminally liable but it could be argued in a civil court...
Too bad that CCP explicitly claim legal ownership of all virtual assets in EVE, including ISK, and even your character. You pay them money in order to be able to access the server, no more.
Transfer of those assets from one character to another is no more "theft" or than someone getting tackled in a football game is "robbery with violence" or bluffing someone in your poker game into folding is "fraud".
Sure it's all game mechanics and all, but the whole mindset of who can screw who out of the most gear/isk is what killed eve for me. Use to love the game, but like it says, haters gonna hate, and I sure hate what eve evolved into after all these years. Its really a game of greed now, 1 effective spy can topple the biggest of corp's, one person can destroy years of work, it's the biggest thrill in eve anymore, who can be the biggest thief. So if you love back handed, deceptive type games, ignore the space flight part of the game like most do, and just try to be the friendliest/helpful person you can be, earn trust, and topple the big guys once they trust you. When you are bored, you can shoot stuff in your space ship.
Ghost, the meta games always been like that. Its just becoming more public as the game gains more players. More players, tends to increase the number of potential marks for the various cons. WAY too many people have become so conditioned into having the Nanny State (in one guise or another) holding their hand, that they can't understand that their actions and choices can have real personal consequences. EVE is NOT the place for people like that. Entire mega alliances have crumbled because of the meta game. Anyone remember BoB?...
There are two BASIC rules to remember in EVE. Rule One, Trust No One. Rule Two, don't fly what you can't afford to replace. Everything else flows from that. Internal security has to be structured in such a fashion that it takes into account that you can and *will* be infiltrated.
No one who you do not know in real life (and most times not even then...^^) should have any more access than their role in the corp requires. EVERYTHING has to be structured to minimze the losses for *when* you trust the wrong person. Thats just the way the meta game in EVE works. Those who can't handle that, would be best served to find another game.
I have to say that I think what they did was not only impressive, but also totally fitting within the confines of the game.
Seriously, a game with a player driven economy and galactic corporations as guilds, with big business as a major aspect of the game... what Phaser Inc accomplished was add realism to the game.
what a dumb game. If you get con'ed in a game from anouther player you sir are a retard or even trust another player in a game you sir are a retard lol.
Sure it's all game mechanics and all, but the whole mindset of who can screw who out of the most gear/isk is what killed eve for me. Use to love the game, but like it says, haters gonna hate, and I sure hate what eve evolved into after all these years. Its really a game of greed now, 1 effective spy can topple the biggest of corp's, one person can destroy years of work, it's the biggest thrill in eve anymore, who can be the biggest thief. So if you love back handed, deceptive type games, ignore the space flight part of the game like most do, and just try to be the friendliest/helpful person you can be, earn trust, and topple the big guys once they trust you. When you are bored, you can shoot stuff in your space ship.
If a someone is concerned with one person destroying years of work that someone needs to get a life. what you do in EVE or any other game that you spend years playing is rob your real life of hours of productivity in order to achieve what? something that isn't real. If one person can take it all away, all that does is help you see (I hope) what a fool you have been to devote so much energy for something that is in fact nothing. If you are going to throw a significant portion of your life away on this particular form of entertainment, then acknowledge that that is all it is and that is all you are doing. "I built an empire in an imaginary world and one person came and took it all away, boo hoo." Call the waambulance. Get out of games and build something real and meaningful. Then at least if someone comes and takes it all away you will have developed the skills to put it all back in place better, stronger and smarter, and it will still be real and meaningful. And by the way, if you think being able to do this sort of mischief is "the biggest thrill in eve anymore" then you don't have a clue why most people play the game, you can only be talking about yourself. Maybe someone beat you at your own game of spy vs spy and this is just sour grapes.
No one can protect you from what you desire, or from what you fear.
Sure it's all game mechanics and all, but the whole mindset of who can screw who out of the most gear/isk is what killed eve for me. Use to love the game, but like it says, haters gonna hate, and I sure hate what eve evolved into after all these years. Its really a game of greed now, 1 effective spy can topple the biggest of corp's, one person can destroy years of work, it's the biggest thrill in eve anymore, who can be the biggest thief. So if you love back handed, deceptive type games, ignore the space flight part of the game like most do, and just try to be the friendliest/helpful person you can be, earn trust, and topple the big guys once they trust you. When you are bored, you can shoot stuff in your space ship.
If a someone is concerned with one person destroying years of work that someone needs to get a life. what you do in EVE or any other game that you spend years playing is rob your real life of hours of productivity in order to achieve what? something that isn't real. If one person can take it all away, all that does is help you see (I hope) what a fool you have been to devote so much energy for something that is in fact nothing. If you are going to throw a significant portion of your life away on this particular form of entertainment, then acknowledge that that is all it is and that is all you are doing. "I built an empire in an imaginary world and one person came and took it all away, boo hoo." Call the waambulance. Get out of games and build something real and meaningful. Then at least if someone comes and takes it all away you will have developed the skills to put it all back in place better, stronger and smarter, and it will still be real and meaningful. And by the way, if you think being able to do this sort of mischief is "the biggest thrill in eve anymore" then you don't have a clue why most people play the game, you can only be talking about yourself. Maybe someone beat you at your own game of spy vs spy and this is just sour grapes.
Sure... Build something "real and meaninful" in real life, so that the politicians and their thugs can take it away from you? Or is that why the big banks and other such OWN the politicians, to protect what they have built? Its not quite as simple as some would have one believe, given that way too many collectivist ideologies are based on *taking* from the productive, to give to the less (or non) productive.
To me, these games are hobbies. Nothing more, nothing less. Like any hobby, they are a source of entertainment, but hardly what my life revolves around.
I'm no lawyer, and not sure how international laws would play into this but I'm not sure the scam falls completely outside the scope of CCP's EULA. Since Phaser, Inc. used a seperate website to organise the transfer of in-game isk with the clear, albeit hind-sighted, intention of bilking the investors of the virtual currency CCP may have grounds to pursue. The worst thing CCP could do is just look the other way in such a highly profiled attack on the player-base from within. While it is true a fool and his money are soon parted, an angry player and his game could part even faster.
I'm no lawyer, and not sure how international laws would play into this but I'm not sure the scam falls completely outside the scope of CCP's EULA. Since Phaser, Inc. used a seperate website to organise the transfer of in-game isk with the clear, albeit hind-sighted, intention of bilking the investors of the virtual currency CCP may have grounds to pursue. The worst thing CCP could do is just look the other way in such a highly profiled attack on the player-base from within. While it is true a fool and his money are soon parted, an angry player and his game could part even faster.
Given that CCP has repeatedly stated in the past that these types of scams are completely legitimate within the game, I really do not see them changing that, at this late date. Players can get as angry as they wish. They can always find another game, if they wish. The worst CCP could do at this point is try to become peoples Nannies. Anyone without the common sense to steer clear of these types of scams, can use some education in the personal consequences of ones actions.
Comments
Any games rules are irrelevent under any country's law where the rules say one thing and the law says another, the law wins. As the in game money has real life money worth, it is conceivable that a country's fraud laws could apply to this kind of happenstance. It would need a test case. Or to be more exact a prosecuting authority willing to take any complaint of this nature seriously. Some countries like Korea may well take this seriously, though whether they have jurisdiction is another question. I guess it depends where the scammers are based. Alternatively there is where the game company is based. The company could be accused of aiding and abetting said fraud, perhaps they wouldn't be criminally liable but it could be argued in a civil court...
A bunch of guys put out this "official sounding" statement promising that if people give them some money ("invest") they'll get back a return on it.
That right there should have set off a red-flag for anyone... I'm assuming it did for most.
Hell, I've never even gotten that deep into the game, and *I* realize that there's no binding laws in that game, where those people would be forced to keep their word. There's no 'contracts' or anything of that sort. There's no repercussions for scammers, other than a ruined rep... which they probably don't care about.
People willingly handed over their money to an "organization" whom they had absolutely no reason nor precedent to trust or hold to their word. They simply assumed they would.
They did it - as others have stated - out of greed; likely out of the promise of "getting more money back without having to earn it themselves".
So, they ignored the warning signs, saw $$$ instead, and it cost them.
Lesson learned and perhaps next time they won't be so gullible.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If you see it in local, it is always a scam. It doesn't matter if it's a contract, investment scheme, offer to help, free blowjob advertisement or your mom logged on to get you to come down to dinner. IF IT'S IN LOCAL, IT IS ALWAYS A SCAM.
You mean games like WoW that encourage and reward racist genocide?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I love these long scams that people pull off in Eve. That is one of the coolest things about that game.
ROTFLMAO!! Good for you guys! Now don't be stupid and try to ebay that ISK, and you will not end up perma banned like the fellow who ran the galactic bank scam.
Exactly correct. This will no doubt be ruled totally legitimate by the GM's/Dev's(as it should be). Fools and their money are soon parted. One would think that after the various scams over the years, that people woul have at least *some* common sense.
What some people don't want to acknowledge is that scamming, con-schemes, whatever separates you from your isk are as valid a form of PvP as gang bang gate camps or suicide ganks. And I absolutely agree with someone who posted the remark that victims of scammers are usually greedy people and therefore deserve to be scammed. The way I like to say it is that Every mark deserves his conman.
I figured out in the market in old Everquest what the real meaning of greed is. Some people think that if I invent something valuable or go out and kill some badass mob that drops something valuable and I set a price on it that you can't afford, that makes me greedy. Those people are wrong. If you want something that you don't have the skills to invent or the skills to defeat the mob that drops it but I do and you want me to sell it to you at a price that you set that I don't agree with, I being the one who invested the time to develop the necessary skills, it is you who are greedy, wanting something before you have a right (through earning) to possess it.
And once we agree on a price, if you find a way to get it cheaper later, don't cry to me about cheating you and I won't cry about being cheated by you if I find someone willing to pay even more than you did. The fact that we agreed on a price when the item exchanged hands means the price was a fair price at that moment.
EVE lawless? the laws of EVE are Darwinian. Stupidity is injurious, extreme stupidity is fatal. But if you are lucky , then you will discover what I have, That which kills us makes us stronger.
What does that phrase non-hardcore player mean? if you aren't in EVE because you like what it offers to all level of player, then you should find some non-hardcore game to play instead.
No one can protect you from what you desire, or from what you fear.
You mean like the laws that allow the big banks to make very risky investments, pocket the profits, and dump their losses on the tax players?... There are two BASIC rules to remember in EVE. One, Trust No One. Two, don't fly what you can't afford to replace.
CCP is based in Iceland... Good luck with any civil actions against them. The Icelandic government (such as it is) isn't likely at all to do more than laugh at any such attempt.
This is what makes eve so great. where in every other mmo the dev's hold you by the hand eve is a true sandbox, there is always consequences, always ways to track and give payback to criminals, remember the casualty trailer.
I have played EVE for 3-4 years now and I have survived in eve, I don't scam and I have my own ethics and morals which guide me. there is only 9 people in eve I trust but and that makes it so much more than any other game out there, after all I have to rely on my own judgement and abilities.
I am now ceo of a very small corp, by choice the numbers are made up of people I have known for 8+ years real life and my wife, we have fun and a sense of accomplishment knowing we have made it in a game that is the only true sandbox.
Next week we'll find out that those were alts of devs.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Sure it's all game mechanics and all, but the whole mindset of who can screw who out of the most gear/isk is what killed eve for me. Use to love the game, but like it says, haters gonna hate, and I sure hate what eve evolved into after all these years. Its really a game of greed now, 1 effective spy can topple the biggest of corp's, one person can destroy years of work, it's the biggest thrill in eve anymore, who can be the biggest thief. So if you love back handed, deceptive type games, ignore the space flight part of the game like most do, and just try to be the friendliest/helpful person you can be, earn trust, and topple the big guys once they trust you. When you are bored, you can shoot stuff in your space ship.
Too bad that CCP explicitly claim legal ownership of all virtual assets in EVE, including ISK, and even your character. You pay them money in order to be able to access the server, no more.
Transfer of those assets from one character to another is no more "theft" or than someone getting tackled in a football game is "robbery with violence" or bluffing someone in your poker game into folding is "fraud".
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Ghost, the meta games always been like that. Its just becoming more public as the game gains more players. More players, tends to increase the number of potential marks for the various cons. WAY too many people have become so conditioned into having the Nanny State (in one guise or another) holding their hand, that they can't understand that their actions and choices can have real personal consequences. EVE is NOT the place for people like that. Entire mega alliances have crumbled because of the meta game. Anyone remember BoB?...
There are two BASIC rules to remember in EVE. Rule One, Trust No One. Rule Two, don't fly what you can't afford to replace. Everything else flows from that. Internal security has to be structured in such a fashion that it takes into account that you can and *will* be infiltrated.
No one who you do not know in real life (and most times not even then...^^) should have any more access than their role in the corp requires. EVERYTHING has to be structured to minimze the losses for *when* you trust the wrong person. Thats just the way the meta game in EVE works. Those who can't handle that, would be best served to find another game.
This is awesome
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I have to say that I think what they did was not only impressive, but also totally fitting within the confines of the game.
Seriously, a game with a player driven economy and galactic corporations as guilds, with big business as a major aspect of the game... what Phaser Inc accomplished was add realism to the game.
It's a case of game imitating life.
what a dumb game. If you get con'ed in a game from anouther player you sir are a retard or even trust another player in a game you sir are a retard lol.
If a someone is concerned with one person destroying years of work that someone needs to get a life. what you do in EVE or any other game that you spend years playing is rob your real life of hours of productivity in order to achieve what? something that isn't real. If one person can take it all away, all that does is help you see (I hope) what a fool you have been to devote so much energy for something that is in fact nothing. If you are going to throw a significant portion of your life away on this particular form of entertainment, then acknowledge that that is all it is and that is all you are doing. "I built an empire in an imaginary world and one person came and took it all away, boo hoo." Call the waambulance. Get out of games and build something real and meaningful. Then at least if someone comes and takes it all away you will have developed the skills to put it all back in place better, stronger and smarter, and it will still be real and meaningful. And by the way, if you think being able to do this sort of mischief is "the biggest thrill in eve anymore" then you don't have a clue why most people play the game, you can only be talking about yourself. Maybe someone beat you at your own game of spy vs spy and this is just sour grapes.
No one can protect you from what you desire, or from what you fear.
Sure... Build something "real and meaninful" in real life, so that the politicians and their thugs can take it away from you? Or is that why the big banks and other such OWN the politicians, to protect what they have built? Its not quite as simple as some would have one believe, given that way too many collectivist ideologies are based on *taking* from the productive, to give to the less (or non) productive.
To me, these games are hobbies. Nothing more, nothing less. Like any hobby, they are a source of entertainment, but hardly what my life revolves around.
I'm no lawyer, and not sure how international laws would play into this but I'm not sure the scam falls completely outside the scope of CCP's EULA. Since Phaser, Inc. used a seperate website to organise the transfer of in-game isk with the clear, albeit hind-sighted, intention of bilking the investors of the virtual currency CCP may have grounds to pursue. The worst thing CCP could do is just look the other way in such a highly profiled attack on the player-base from within. While it is true a fool and his money are soon parted, an angry player and his game could part even faster.
Given that CCP has repeatedly stated in the past that these types of scams are completely legitimate within the game, I really do not see them changing that, at this late date. Players can get as angry as they wish. They can always find another game, if they wish. The worst CCP could do at this point is try to become peoples Nannies. Anyone without the common sense to steer clear of these types of scams, can use some education in the personal consequences of ones actions.
it is Eve
Always worth a chuckle to see EVE's Market Discussion elite being misled and made a little poorer.
My brand new bloggity blog.