a good mmo has no endgame per se but offers everything from start to "end" to stay part of your every day game for you to choose from :P
like making your own quests "aka" farming in sandbox game for example where you decide what to kill according to what you need, a simple goblin might drops some stuff you need tho you have been playing for years. mmos that push you towards some sort of so called endgame mostly just suck.
p.s. i just cannont understand how someone can play wow for years when everything stays the same in the so called end game carrot on the stick stuff ^^ i would feel cheated if achievements i made get wiped every patch. just me i guess ^^
There seemed to be a theme amongst all of the answers in both questions.
"End Game" Content & "End Game" play
The idea of "End Game" is alien to me since I play a game where haveing played for 5 hours a day for the past 3+ years I still dont expect to reach 'Uber' status within the next 5+ years.
I read posts like "lacking End Game content," "End Game play is too grindy," "Level fast to End Game levels for the PVP but then grow bored with it," etc...
So I would really like some definitions of what "End Game" means in modern MMORPGs.
Here are my questions.
What is End Game Play?
What is End Game Content?
What do you like about current games End Game content and playstyles?
What do you NOT like about current games End GAme content and playstyles?
What are your thoughts on the idea of not being able to ever reach the 'End Game'?
Thanks for your responses, I am sure I have overlooked something obvious, so feel free to point out anything on topic that needs to be said.
narfi
Personally...and as a LONG time MMO player, the term "end game" should not exist at all in MMORPG's. Console games are made specifically for that reason, and is why it is a different genre all together.
Personally...and as a LONG time MMO player, the term "end game" should not exist at all in MMORPG's. Console games are made specifically for that reason, and is why it is a different genre all together.
That is my openion as well, but it is hard for me to judge since I dont have the time to try out the more typical mmorpgs.
It seems that there is somewhat of a consensus that 'end game' is when you have finished all the main objectives of the game for character progression, and the only thing remaining is what content the developers have provided to keep you interested without character growth.
There seemed to be a theme amongst all of the answers in both questions.
"End Game" Content & "End Game" play
The idea of "End Game" is alien to me since I play a game where haveing played for 5 hours a day for the past 3+ years I still dont expect to reach 'Uber' status within the next 5+ years.
I read posts like "lacking End Game content," "End Game play is too grindy," "Level fast to End Game levels for the PVP but then grow bored with it," etc...
So I would really like some definitions of what "End Game" means in modern MMORPGs.
Here are my questions.
What is End Game Play?
What is End Game Content?
What do you like about current games End Game content and playstyles?
What do you NOT like about current games End GAme content and playstyles?
What are your thoughts on the idea of not being able to ever reach the 'End Game'?
Thanks for your responses, I am sure I have overlooked something obvious, so feel free to point out anything on topic that needs to be said.
narfi
End Game: Design flaw brought about by focusing the entire game on leveling, then figuring out what to do with people once they've reached the cap.
I want "end game" (if we HAVE to use that word and have that element IN our persistent worlds).....that offers the option of MORE than raiding. Mind you I don't want to see raiding go away, I just want more OPTIONS.
Some of those options might be features like housing that can be worked on all through the game with a crafting skill and gathering skill called lumberjacking and carpentry or something. I want collections as a feature that can be worked on all throughout the game and some collections you can't obtain until max level, of course. I want mini games to play for fun and prizes. I realize these are technically FEATURES and not necessarily only for end game, but they would help in keeping me busy when I don't feel like raiding.
I would also prefer the end game dungeons idea from GW2, with several paths through a dungeon and also a storyline mode beforehand. I like that idea.
If I thought about it longer I'd come up with more, but I'm tired, so....that's it for now. Mostly I just wish the term "end game" would go away and that people would quit trying to rush through the game, but that's my preference in playing. I don't believe in rushing to level. I want to enjoy the WHOLE game and not be rushing through SKIPPING stuff.
Endgame is when Leveling is no longer the main form of progression.
Some games have no levels, so Endgame starts as soon as you play.
Some games have levels that mean something. Like in WoW, each level increases your power greatly. Endgame starts when leveling is no longer the main form of progression.
Some games have levels, but they mean little value. like Guild Wars. so the Endgame start new later levels.
I want "end game" (if we HAVE to use that word and have that element IN our persistent worlds).....that offers the option of MORE than raiding. Mind you I don't want to see raiding go away, I just want more OPTIONS.
"this" as well.
there is nothing wrong with large scale raiding. But if that is the sole activity or if it's a WoW affair then no thanks. In Lineage 2 we used to do raids to help clan members with quests for character advancement. That had more meaning and more weight.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
"Uninspiring game design where the amount of things you can do towards the high/max levels of an MMORPG, simply dwindles down to a point of hamsters running on a wheel."
Like running Raids.
Over.
And Over.
And Over.
Again.
And Again.
And Again.
And nothing else. There's even games now where players are punished for helping lower levelled friends with their high levelled characters.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I want "end game" (if we HAVE to use that word and have that element IN our persistent worlds).....that offers the option of MORE than raiding. Mind you I don't want to see raiding go away, I just want more OPTIONS.
"this" as well.
there is nothing wrong with large scale raiding. But if that is the sole activity or if it's a WoW affair then no thanks. In Lineage 2 we used to do raids to help clan members with quests for character advancement. That had more meaning and more weight.
In my honest opinion raiding is a bad mechanic.
If someone could add large scale raiding into the game and not make it the focus then it would be fine but currently thats impossible. Everyone knows Raiding isnt fun, you basically run the same content over and over to get gear to run another raid over and over to get that gear.
If raiding doesnt hold the best shit then noone would do it. This tells me a lot when it comes to raidings current form.
Think about it. Would u8 raid if u could get all those items through crafting? small team dungeons or through epic quests? of course you wouldnt!!!!!!
Why? because after the first clear of raid content its no longer fun and turns a game into a part time job!!!
1. Character progression. Just because you've stopped gaining levels is no excuse for stopping progression. In most MMO's, this is gear, and that's fine. It's easy, it works.
But this gear progression should not be limited to one playstyle, it must be available in all the playstyles the game allowed for while levelling. That includes solo, small group, raids and pvp. Rate of progression must be balanced between those four such that one must not be the obvious 'path of least resistance'. In other words, people shouldn't raid because they can't get that loot any other way, nor should people solo because it's the easiest or the fastest method.
PvP'ing, which I'm far from an authority on, also needs to have meaningful progression. I'll leave the particulars of how this should be accomplished to someone with more PvP experience than I do.
2. Sandbox elements. These can also (but don't have to) include forms of character progression; explorer achievements, unlocking badges (CoH) or titles (LoTro). Mini-games, house decoration, trophy gathering, etc. Stuff to do that isn't pure combat.
While every MMO will have an endgame point; a point at which your character can no longer gain levels, it should take a very, very long time for a player to reach a state of true endgame, with every achievement unlocked, every piece of gear being best in slot, etc. In this way, no MMO should have a real endgame.
Here is a well thought out response I received to the same question asked over on my Blog, (couldn't find any quote tags, anyone know how to post a quote?)
[quote]
End game play is when your character has developed to a maximum level and the only increase in stats comes from items/equipment. End game content is the content that is available only/mostly when you have reached this maximum level.
The only problem with end game content is that it usually becomes boring fast within the MMO community. Some people are perfectly happy with playing a game repetitively at the max level just to “fully” upgrade their characters… others like the end game PVP aspect of an MMO… I am not a fan of PVP all together so I avoid games that focus on PVP as a main end game content.
Most current games end game content are geared around some form of PVP… there are certain dungeons/worlds that offer a challenge to players who have reached max level, but these challenges eventually get boring. This is when I eventually move on to another game (played WoW, Aion, and now EU)
The idea of only being able to obtain “end game content” through hard work, dedication, and something that will separate you from the general public (e.g: money) is appealing to me. Basically, this will detour the young generation these days who just want to max out their character and start killing people who have been playing for years. In EU, rather than paying $50 for the game, $15 for the first month, and reaching max level with good/great gear in 2 weeks then clobbering people who have played for years…. now one must play for at least a year to stand a chance against medium level players as well as possibly invested some money. This is solely based on PVP. For “end game content”, you must play for numerous years, invested quite a bit of money (time is money lol), and have a decent understanding of the game to “survive”.
In addition to creating a more mature playerbase (by detouring the “give me” generation), EU also offers a sense of accomplishment. When you reach 150 HP, it really means something… both to you and the community. There are certain groups you just cannot be a part of unless you are dedicated and invested in EU. You can’t just log in, play for a few weeks, then start hunting Dasps. For the vast majority of the players in EU, there is and will always be another goal to obtain.
My definition of endgame? Well if you really want my answer: Shit.
Any MMO which has what they refer to as "endgame" is a restricted game with linear progression, which implys the game will eventually "end".
An MMO should be what you make of it, there shouldn't be a set path which you follow to the end and eventually complete.
no actually,, WoW for example:
Has multiple Endgame formats, not just Raiding. Thats an example of the freedom Endgame can have. Most people in WoW simply refer to Endgame as the gameplay that comes after leveling up you character.
But here is the thing. Nothing from your leveling experience is left out at endgame. its the same thing, but with even more options.
my definition of "end game" is "something that should not exist in mmorpgs".
lol, I have to agree.
there should be a larger "meta game" that by being highest level, best gear, however it's set up, you can become more successful at doing.
Could be pvp/territory control, could be pve invasions, could be a new way to craft, perhaps legendary items?
But something other than grinding for gear or raiding over and over just to get gear. *shivers*.
Well there's a lot less to be found wrong with endgame (a general concept of new gameplay) than raiding (a specific example of endgame)
In fact, the stuff you list are all endgame activities you think should exist in MMORPGs (so you're disagreeing with the prior poster)
well, I'm not disagreeing with him. I don't think there should be an "end game". What one does at lvl 10 should be close to what one does at max level.
I'm not saying that any of the things that I've listed should only be done at "end game". They should be what players are doing throughout their game experience.
so pvp/terriorty control, pve invasions, crafting, etc should be things that one can participate in from lvl 10/20 ish until one maxes.
These aren't endgame activities. They should just be "activities".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
My idea of an endgame (and there is no game out there that does this) is leaving the adventurer grind mostly behind and shifting to an entirely new playing field. This would be something like Empire building, or working toward immortality and "managing" your own religion. Anything besides just bullying your guildmates to log on Friday at 6 pm for a raid or else they risk being thrown out of the guild.
"If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it." -Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming
"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I'd rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity." -Raph Koster
So I would really like some definitions of what "End Game" means in modern MMORPGs to you personaly
Here are my questions.
What is End Game Play?
Reaching cap lvl and continue to make a living in that virtual gameworld, helping other players (mostly newbies) this also includes making sure the new player feels welcome, getting high end resources but meanwhile also getting every other type of resource so I can continue to craft low and high level things, working the auction or if the game allows for player run shop making sure I get the best and most well know shop out there. Trying to build up a ingame name/fame.
What is End Game Content?
Content that continues to make you as a character grow even more but this time you can cover all of it's worlds or lands instead of not being able to travel to certain places due to too low lvl'd.
What do you like about current games End Game content and playstyles?
I don't like current "end game content" cause with most current MMO's it changes the direction of the game completely into a game genre I already play and enjoy which is the common online multiplayer games. The world feel changes into a instanced locked area. Which seems to be also the answer for your next question.
What do you NOT like about current games End GAme content and playstyles?
See answer above.
What are your thoughts on the idea of not being able to ever reach the 'End Game'?
The only way I might not reach "end game" is due to what I already said, the world feel get's lost and it starts being just a mulitplayer game with more people instead of the set 16/32/64 people in regular mulitplayer games, but even with current MMO's there isn't that much difference anymore with the amount of people you can group with compared to normal multiplayer games.
Thanks for your responses, I am sure I have overlooked something obvious, so feel free to point out anything on topic that needs to be said.
"End Game" means your primary activity in the game changes.
In many games, the primary activity you engage in at the start is character advancement in stats. Those could be levels, or skills.
The classic example of a change in primary activity would be raiding.
You no longer spend time increasing your character stats, levels or skills. Instead you collect "gear" from Raids.
the Raids themselves are a new activity.
Instead of playing content solo, or with a small group of up to 8 players, you engage in content that requires over 8 players to complete.
End game may be PvP instead of raiding, or a combination.
If the main activity does not change, you start teh game gaining levels or skills, adn that's all you do for the entire game, then there is no "end game".
Comments
a good mmo has no endgame per se but offers everything from start to "end" to stay part of your every day game for you to choose from :P
like making your own quests "aka" farming in sandbox game for example where you decide what to kill according to what you need, a simple goblin might drops some stuff you need tho you have been playing for years. mmos that push you towards some sort of so called endgame mostly just suck.
p.s. i just cannont understand how someone can play wow for years when everything stays the same in the so called end game carrot on the stick stuff ^^ i would feel cheated if achievements i made get wiped every patch. just me i guess ^^
My definition is within the content of this article. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php
Personally...and as a LONG time MMO player, the term "end game" should not exist at all in MMORPG's. Console games are made specifically for that reason, and is why it is a different genre all together.
That is my openion as well, but it is hard for me to judge since I dont have the time to try out the more typical mmorpgs.
It seems that there is somewhat of a consensus that 'end game' is when you have finished all the main objectives of the game for character progression, and the only thing remaining is what content the developers have provided to keep you interested without character growth.
Basicly ALL characters at 'end game' are equill.
Is that correct?
thanks,
narfi
Playing with Real Money: Colonizing Virtual Worlds
End Game: Design flaw brought about by focusing the entire game on leveling, then figuring out what to do with people once they've reached the cap.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
I want "end game" (if we HAVE to use that word and have that element IN our persistent worlds).....that offers the option of MORE than raiding. Mind you I don't want to see raiding go away, I just want more OPTIONS.
Some of those options might be features like housing that can be worked on all through the game with a crafting skill and gathering skill called lumberjacking and carpentry or something. I want collections as a feature that can be worked on all throughout the game and some collections you can't obtain until max level, of course. I want mini games to play for fun and prizes. I realize these are technically FEATURES and not necessarily only for end game, but they would help in keeping me busy when I don't feel like raiding.
I would also prefer the end game dungeons idea from GW2, with several paths through a dungeon and also a storyline mode beforehand. I like that idea.
If I thought about it longer I'd come up with more, but I'm tired, so....that's it for now. Mostly I just wish the term "end game" would go away and that people would quit trying to rush through the game, but that's my preference in playing. I don't believe in rushing to level. I want to enjoy the WHOLE game and not be rushing through SKIPPING stuff.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Here. This is what Endgame is. its simple
Endgame is when Leveling is no longer the main form of progression.
Some games have no levels, so Endgame starts as soon as you play.
Some games have levels that mean something. Like in WoW, each level increases your power greatly. Endgame starts when leveling is no longer the main form of progression.
Some games have levels, but they mean little value. like Guild Wars. so the Endgame start new later levels.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
If a game's early and late gameplay are different, "endgame" is the latter type of gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My definition of endgame? Well if you really want my answer: Shit.
Any MMO which has what they refer to as "endgame" is a restricted game with linear progression, which implys the game will eventually "end".
An MMO should be what you make of it, there shouldn't be a set path which you follow to the end and eventually complete.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
when you do not log in anymore.
my definition of "end game" is "something that should not exist in mmorpgs".
lol, I have to agree.
there should be a larger "meta game" that by being highest level, best gear, however it's set up, you can become more successful at doing.
Could be pvp/territory control, could be pve invasions, could be a new way to craft, perhaps legendary items?
But something other than grinding for gear or raiding over and over just to get gear. *shivers*.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"this" as well.
there is nothing wrong with large scale raiding. But if that is the sole activity or if it's a WoW affair then no thanks. In Lineage 2 we used to do raids to help clan members with quests for character advancement. That had more meaning and more weight.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My definition of "Endgame?"
"Uninspiring game design where the amount of things you can do towards the high/max levels of an MMORPG, simply dwindles down to a point of hamsters running on a wheel."
Like running Raids.
Over.
And Over.
And Over.
Again.
And Again.
And Again.
And nothing else. There's even games now where players are punished for helping lower levelled friends with their high levelled characters.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
In my honest opinion raiding is a bad mechanic.
If someone could add large scale raiding into the game and not make it the focus then it would be fine but currently thats impossible. Everyone knows Raiding isnt fun, you basically run the same content over and over to get gear to run another raid over and over to get that gear.
If raiding doesnt hold the best shit then noone would do it. This tells me a lot when it comes to raidings current form.
Think about it. Would u8 raid if u could get all those items through crafting? small team dungeons or through epic quests? of course you wouldnt!!!!!!
Why? because after the first clear of raid content its no longer fun and turns a game into a part time job!!!
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Endgame needs to consist of two things:
1. Character progression. Just because you've stopped gaining levels is no excuse for stopping progression. In most MMO's, this is gear, and that's fine. It's easy, it works.
But this gear progression should not be limited to one playstyle, it must be available in all the playstyles the game allowed for while levelling. That includes solo, small group, raids and pvp. Rate of progression must be balanced between those four such that one must not be the obvious 'path of least resistance'. In other words, people shouldn't raid because they can't get that loot any other way, nor should people solo because it's the easiest or the fastest method.
PvP'ing, which I'm far from an authority on, also needs to have meaningful progression. I'll leave the particulars of how this should be accomplished to someone with more PvP experience than I do.
2. Sandbox elements. These can also (but don't have to) include forms of character progression; explorer achievements, unlocking badges (CoH) or titles (LoTro). Mini-games, house decoration, trophy gathering, etc. Stuff to do that isn't pure combat.
While every MMO will have an endgame point; a point at which your character can no longer gain levels, it should take a very, very long time for a player to reach a state of true endgame, with every achievement unlocked, every piece of gear being best in slot, etc. In this way, no MMO should have a real endgame.
Well there's a lot less to be found wrong with endgame (a general concept of new gameplay) than raiding (a specific example of endgame)
In fact, the stuff you list are all endgame activities you think should exist in MMORPGs (so you're disagreeing with the prior poster)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Here is a well thought out response I received to the same question asked over on my Blog, (couldn't find any quote tags, anyone know how to post a quote?)
[quote]
End game play is when your character has developed to a maximum level and the only increase in stats comes from items/equipment. End game content is the content that is available only/mostly when you have reached this maximum level.
The only problem with end game content is that it usually becomes boring fast within the MMO community. Some people are perfectly happy with playing a game repetitively at the max level just to “fully” upgrade their characters… others like the end game PVP aspect of an MMO… I am not a fan of PVP all together so I avoid games that focus on PVP as a main end game content.
Most current games end game content are geared around some form of PVP… there are certain dungeons/worlds that offer a challenge to players who have reached max level, but these challenges eventually get boring. This is when I eventually move on to another game (played WoW, Aion, and now EU)
The idea of only being able to obtain “end game content” through hard work, dedication, and something that will separate you from the general public (e.g: money) is appealing to me. Basically, this will detour the young generation these days who just want to max out their character and start killing people who have been playing for years. In EU, rather than paying $50 for the game, $15 for the first month, and reaching max level with good/great gear in 2 weeks then clobbering people who have played for years…. now one must play for at least a year to stand a chance against medium level players as well as possibly invested some money. This is solely based on PVP. For “end game content”, you must play for numerous years, invested quite a bit of money (time is money lol), and have a decent understanding of the game to “survive”.
In addition to creating a more mature playerbase (by detouring the “give me” generation), EU also offers a sense of accomplishment. When you reach 150 HP, it really means something… both to you and the community. There are certain groups you just cannot be a part of unless you are dedicated and invested in EU. You can’t just log in, play for a few weeks, then start hunting Dasps. For the vast majority of the players in EU, there is and will always be another goal to obtain.
-Nightmare
[/quote]
Playing with Real Money: Colonizing Virtual Worlds
no actually,, WoW for example:
Has multiple Endgame formats, not just Raiding. Thats an example of the freedom Endgame can have. Most people in WoW simply refer to Endgame as the gameplay that comes after leveling up you character.
But here is the thing. Nothing from your leveling experience is left out at endgame. its the same thing, but with even more options.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
well, I'm not disagreeing with him. I don't think there should be an "end game". What one does at lvl 10 should be close to what one does at max level.
I'm not saying that any of the things that I've listed should only be done at "end game". They should be what players are doing throughout their game experience.
so pvp/terriorty control, pve invasions, crafting, etc should be things that one can participate in from lvl 10/20 ish until one maxes.
These aren't endgame activities. They should just be "activities".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My idea of an endgame (and there is no game out there that does this) is leaving the adventurer grind mostly behind and shifting to an entirely new playing field. This would be something like Empire building, or working toward immortality and "managing" your own religion. Anything besides just bullying your guildmates to log on Friday at 6 pm for a raid or else they risk being thrown out of the guild.
"If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it."
-Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming
"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I'd rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
-Raph Koster
"End Game" means your primary activity in the game changes.
In many games, the primary activity you engage in at the start is character advancement in stats. Those could be levels, or skills.
The classic example of a change in primary activity would be raiding.
You no longer spend time increasing your character stats, levels or skills. Instead you collect "gear" from Raids.
the Raids themselves are a new activity.
Instead of playing content solo, or with a small group of up to 8 players, you engage in content that requires over 8 players to complete.
End game may be PvP instead of raiding, or a combination.
If the main activity does not change, you start teh game gaining levels or skills, adn that's all you do for the entire game, then there is no "end game".
Endgame in an MMO is when you're doing something you like to do.