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The largest sandbox is not EvE, and has 1M+ players.

2

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  • M1sf1tM1sf1t Member UncommonPosts: 1,583


    Originally posted by jarby
    all pve  now is like  just cleaning anomales and making 10-s.  how cool

    That's all eve pve has been is clearing anomales, complexes, missions and belts.

    Where the hell have you been for the last past 5+ years?

    Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.

    Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:

    GW2 (+LoL and BF3)

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    Eve is player driven, game thrives off the economy which is 100% player driven from players making all items ingame. Runescape is a themepark. In eve u can make ur ships-mods-pos's-stations... runescape i dont beleave can do that. Also eve is 100% pvp, even in empire some1 can come along and gank you. No where is safe cept when your docked. Also as some1 pointed out in eve every1 is on 1 server thats 300k+ all on 1 server...runescape doesnt even come close to that. Nice try at advertising Runescape, but that p2w themecrap is not in any way shape or form a sandbox. (if you really want to get technical, Xsyon is the only game the nails 100% sandbox...u peice together your homes--terraform--make all your tools-gears-have to eat-drink-fish and hunt and find everything you use. their is no npcs, no quests, no tutorial,  100% from start sandbox.) darkfall comes next but eve tops them all for being the most fun :-)

  • NomadMorlockNomadMorlock Member UncommonPosts: 815

    I'm even going to reply to my own post on that.

    Game designer created a world for me to enter and I choose where and how I choose to play in this world? = sandbox


    Game designer created a world for me to enter and has chosen a path for me to progress through the world and content? = theme park

    This isn't about features. This about core design.

  • tyrannistyrannis Member Posts: 198

     

    - Classless, or contains many different classes (usually more than 6 or 7)

    - Player housing

    - Some form of Death penalty

    - Unrestricted forms of PvP

    - Crafting

    - City Building

    - Quests tend to be longer and more complicated with bigger rewards

    - Gameplay includes some measure of player skill

    - Gameplay focused on a combination of activities

     

    Not one of these item's has anything to do with being a sandbox. Not one. You're  whole post was destroyed by your own criteria.  Way to go, you really set everyone straight.

    ##Best SWTOR of 2011
    Posted by I_Return - SWTOR - "Forget the UI the characters and all ofhe nitpicking bullshit" "Greatest MMO Ever Created"

    ##Fail Thread Title of 2011
    Originally posted by daveospice
    "this game looks like crap?"

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    In its defense, Runescape is a Sandbox albeit a corrupt one with a young player base and terrible graphics. The OP just failed to quantify the core elements, he listed features that may compliment a sandbox.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • NomadMorlockNomadMorlock Member UncommonPosts: 815
  • MetentsoMetentso Member UncommonPosts: 1,437

    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    Originally posted by Metentso

    Eve has a few 100% sandbox features. Does that make it a sandbox MMO? that's up to anyones opinions. For me it's not a sandbox game.

     As i said, being a sandbox has nothing to do with features.  It is about community and economy.  Both are Eves biggest strengths.  Pointing to a community and saying 'thats not a community' does not make it so :)

     

    Darkfall players says sandbox is full PVP and full loot. Eve players say sandbox is community, economy, politics.

    They are like the blind people touching parts of an elephant. Yes those are sandbox features, or caracteristics if you prefer, but a whole sandbox is much more. I won't go into what a sandobx is because that's a very open concept and will lead to endless discussions.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331

    Originally posted by morlock9

    This must be one of the worst discussions I've ever seen on this site. Please look up definitions of sandbox and theme park before posting. A sandbox game is one in which the designer provides a static word for the player to exist in and doesn't define how the player proceeds to play the game. A theme park provides a path from beginning through content designed to be explored in a linear fashion. Eve is a sandbox.

    Take out that "static world" part and it's pretty good. After that we can discuss good or bad games (Sandbox or Themepark), where "static world" comes into play. For either.

    Once upon a time....

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    aika is a sandbox :you can fit 1000 vs 1000 player in full pvp combat

    try that with runescape lol

    aika and eve know the true meanning of massive

    other game should more be called group multiplayer rpg

    cause it is what they are but the term got watered down now it is any game that gets more then 100 k player yes even if it is a 2vs like chess it will be considered a mmo even tho only two player can play there are still k s and k s of player so it is a mmo

    silly?hell ya!but then ,when corp gets in the way they will do anything to not be left out of all market (yes including lying)

    gamer dont care anymore cause they just filter the noise,corp gets mad and say why you dont consider us

    cause there are 10000 saying same thing and 9000 are lying how am i supposed to know you aint lying.

    basicly gamer randomly pick a game and hope but most often the one we take isnt an mmo but that corp had such a good lie

    that gamer felt maybe this one is saying the truth .buzzer sound:sorry gamer wrong choice you got 9999 more try to go before you get the good one!

    oh brother!

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059

    Yay, another sandbox thread where people warp the very meaning of sandbox.  Why are we still using this term?  Nobody seems to have any idea what it means anymore in a MMO sense.  By some definitions here every MMO is a sandbox, since I don't know of any MMO that offers complete linear progression.  Yes, multiple paths to max level is non-linear, look up the definition of linear.

    WoW is a sandbox because it offers multiple paths to progression.  You can grind dungeons, MOBs, do multiple quests paths (your actual quest path can vary greatly especially in Vanilla WoW), and at max level you have several progression paths now too.

    Free Realms is a sandbox because I can change my class at any time and have multiple paths to progression.

    FFXI is a sandbox because I can change my job at any time and have multiple paths to progression.

    Do you see how ridiculous this is?

    Think about for a second how much meaning the term sandbox actually as, as we continue to use it more and more making idiotic cases for which game is a sandbox and which isn't, without defining a clear meaning (the term sandbox varies so greatly in this community).  Now, most people on the forums give a definition of sandbox that applies to EVERY SINGLE MMO.  Seriously, stop and look at how you are defining it and tell me how games that were pretty much universally considered themepark wouldn't be considered sandbox by your definitions.  Instead of using sandbox as an absolute, why don't we use it to define how non-linear a game is?  This game has X% of sandbox elements, while this game has Y%.  A game like Second Life has far more sandbox elements than a game like World of Warcraft, but we should at least acknowledge all MMOs are non-linear.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    you are right!

    try this for fun

    ask these two question around .you can only eath it if the answer is yes

    1;does it grow?

    2;can it be killed?

    i bet most of the people you ask around will answer yes!( to chips etc)

    so imagine the meanning of sandbox or mmo lol.it is even gona get worst response lol

    yep it is this silly !we lie to our selves unconciously each day we re so used to it

    if we had a system like in the serie eureka (s.a.r.a.h)

    we would get crazy in 1 hour just because the computer would try to correct us all the time lol!

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,346

    Eve is not Sandbox. Its Sandpark. Thats the only reason it has been successful

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • alfokentyalfokenty Member Posts: 24

     

    A sandbox MMO can not have quests. Quests defeat the whole purpose of a sandbox MMO. If a MMO has quests it is a theme-park MMO. It can have rich features or sandbox elements but basically it's still a theme-park MMO.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,414

    I never understood why sandbox has to equil full looting of corpses in pvp, features like that personally make me stay away from it. Pvp is NO FUN when you can lose everything on you while some people like it, most of them tend to be in the greifer type of mmo player more often than not. Eve to me is not a game, its a 2nd job thats just as boring, is no fun, involves repeting the same boring tasks over and over, which is even worse when you have to click thru like 10 menus just to do anything half the time. I honestly wonder myself what kind of person actually finds eve enjoyable. I love space sims but most sims don't have you using menu's to even move your ship. I also dislike the skill system. Its kinda no fun to just have your skills given to you, and its also silly how some skills can take months to learn. People can never catch up, so PVP is never balanced. Then again I'd not care if I get ganked as long as I keep my ship and my stuff on it, if I just had to pay a repair fee on death insted of losing stuff permamently I could prob get into games like darkfall, Eve etc. Well maybe not Eve since the game is just the epitome of boring at its core in my eyes. Kinda like battlestar galatica online when u get pked, you gotta repair your ship and your killer gets exp, and loot like he killed a npc, though its usually a lil better than npc loot.

    If you notice open pvp games like darkfall, Eve etc never do well, because the average mmorpg player doesn't like th efact they can be ganked anywhere, and the fact they will lose all their stuff they are carrying when they do get killed. I don't mind getting ganked if all I lose is a tiny bit of repair fee cash and the time to walk/fly/drive back to where I was. But the system in most sandbox mmo's is too steep for the average mmo player. Its better to piss off a minority like greifers/full looting on pve/pvp death advocators, than to shut yourself off to a larger playerbase.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • SheistaSheista Member UncommonPosts: 1,203

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Eve is not Sandbox. Its Sandpark. Thats the only reason it has been successful

    EVE is not a hybrid.  Just because a game has PvE does not make it a hybrid.  Themepark games focus on an end-game.  Class-based progression in which there is a cap, and when that cap is reached players take part in an end-game.

    There is no end-game in EVE.  There is only freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want.  If a new player wants to involve themselves in 0.0 warfare, they CAN.  If a new player wants to PvP, they can.  If they want to mine/manufacture, they can.  Want to play the market? They can.  Want to do wormholes? They can.  None of those are end-game features.  They're only game features, to be taken however someone wants.

    There's no preferred order.  Quests aren't done in progression.  PvE is a means to an end, not an end.  You are not rewarded with tier X gear upon completion.  Even the new PvE content does not follow a themepark formula.  

     

    A game I would consider a hybrid is Asheron's Call - Skill-based progression in which levels meant nothing.  Quests were there that you did as you 'progressed', however many of them were repeatable.  Some major quests required that you have at least a certain amount of XP before doing them or you'd probably fail.  There were level restricted dungeons, and PvP was somewhat level based.  However, they still gave players freedom because a level 75 could compete with someone twice his level in PvP due to game mechanics.  Crafting existed with a bit of detail for fletching/alchemy, but players couldn't actually create their own armor.  Armor could instead be modified.  Dungeons/quests rewarded you with loot/rare items.

    These are mixed features.  It had the questing/leveling progression, and crafting of themeparks (keep in mind this was an old game before those features were even labeled as one or the other.. but you can see which ones themeparks expanded on many of these from EQ, UO, and AC).  But it had skill-based progression, and FFA PvP with loot (if you chose to partake, unless you were on the PvP server), as well as the ability for players of all levels to take part in content together, not just those at cap.

     

    Seriously don't know how anyone can take a COMPREHENSIVE and HONEST look at EVE and not call it a sandbox.  Like I said earlier.. if EVE isn't considered a sandbox, then NO game is a sandbox, and themepark suddenly took on a whole list of features it didn't previously contain.

  • SheistaSheista Member UncommonPosts: 1,203

    Originally posted by alfokenty

     

    A sandbox MMO can not have quests. Quests defeat the whole purpose of a sandbox MMO. If a MMO has quests it is a theme-park MMO. It can have rich features or sandbox elements but basically it's still a theme-park MMO.

    Incorrect.  When quests are the focus of a game, it becomes a themepark.  When that's what you do at end-game, is quest and raid so that you can improve your gear, that is a themepark.

    In EVE, quests(missions), are only a means to an end.  A source of income.  There is no real progression.  They get more difficult when you have the proper skills to be able to take them on, but even new players can take part in the hardest missions if they have friends, and they can still benefit from them.  Missions do nothing to defeat the purpose of a sandbox.  They do not take any freedom away from a player.  They are not the focus of the game.  What's so hard to grasp about that?

    And if you look at other things like sleepers/wormholes, incursions, exploration, and trade/manufacturing, PvE exists to give the world life.  PvP is still a HUGE focus of the game in every avenue.  Even in that content, PvP can come out of nowhere and throw a wrench into all your plans.

    People are not looking at big pictures here, or they simply have not played EVE and actually dug into its features to realize just what can be done.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    Originally posted by Siveria

    I never understood why sandbox has to equil full looting of corpses in pvp, features like that personally make me stay away from it. Pvp is NO FUN when you can lose everything on you while some people like it, most of them tend to be in the greifer type of mmo player more often than not. Eve to me is not a game, its a 2nd job thats just as boring, is no fun, involves repeting the same boring tasks over and over, which is even worse when you have to click thru like 10 menus just to do anything half the time. I honestly wonder myself what kind of person actually finds eve enjoyable. I love space sims but most sims don't have you using menu's to even move your ship. I also dislike the skill system. Its kinda no fun to just have your skills given to you, and its also silly how some skills can take months to learn. People can never catch up, so PVP is never balanced. Then again I'd not care if I get ganked as long as I keep my ship and my stuff on it, if I just had to pay a repair fee on death insted of losing stuff permamently I could prob get into games like darkfall, Eve etc. Well maybe not Eve since the game is just the epitome of boring at its core in my eyes. Kinda like battlestar galatica online when u get pked, you gotta repair your ship and your killer gets exp, and loot like he killed a npc, though its usually a lil better than npc loot.

    If you notice open pvp games like darkfall, Eve etc never do well, because the average mmorpg player doesn't like th efact they can be ganked anywhere, and the fact they will lose all their stuff they are carrying when they do get killed. I don't mind getting ganked if all I lose is a tiny bit of repair fee cash and the time to walk/fly/drive back to where I was. But the system in most sandbox mmo's is too steep for the average mmo player. Its better to piss off a minority like greifers/full looting on pve/pvp death advocators, than to shut yourself off to a larger playerbase.

     first of all pvp with full looting does not equate to sandbox, it is a game feature that is popular in sandboxes because it both drives the economy and provides long term social and political goals as well as being fun for some.  Secondly your likes and dislikes have got nothing to do with this thread regarding eve not being the largest sandbox (and are totally inaccurate).  If you compare chat in eve with chat in other mmorgs you will notice that the chat is a lot more mature, less 'omg gank the noob' type language etc.  In otherwords the community is healthy and is self sufficient, i.e sandbox.

    'But the system in most sandbox mmo's is too steep for the average mmo player'  lol says who?  your comments make it clear you do not understand Eve and the rules that govern the game, if you spent the time to do that you would understand that your fears about being ganked in Eve are entirely unfounded and inaccurate.  Ive only been playing for a month, and am happily pve'ing, not pvping, and no risk of being ganked, it doesnt even require anything more than very very basic knowledge of the game.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,025

    Originally posted by Ghost12

    Sandbox elements:

    - Classless, or contains many different classes (usually more than 6 or 7)

    - Player housing

    - Some form of Death penalty

    - Unrestricted forms of PvP

    - Crafting

    - City Building

    - Quests tend to be longer and more complicated with bigger rewards

    - Gameplay includes some measure of player skill

    - Gameplay focused on a combination of activities

     

    Those are not what define a Sandbox. Hell, you didn't even include ANY core sandbox elements. They MAY be elements withing a sandbox just like they are often elements in a themepark game.

     

    Your post misses the mark entirely. You have no clue what an sandbox is. Runescape a sandbox? .... excuse me while I go laugh until my gut bursts ...

    You stay sassy!

  • alfokentyalfokenty Member Posts: 24

    Originally posted by Sheista

     

    In EVE, quests(missions), are only a means to an end.  A source of income.  

     

    A very good point. In a sandbox MMO you have to find out by yourself how to earn money. In a theme-park MMO your income is delivered to you on a plate - quests.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    Originally posted by alfokenty

    Originally posted by Sheista


     

    In EVE, quests(missions), are only a means to an end.  A source of income.  

     

    A very good point. In a sandbox MMO you have to find out by yourself how to earn money. In a theme-park MMO your income is delivered to you on a plate - quests.

     so entropia universe would be a hard core sandbox then !probably the best on the planet by your definition

  • ToferioToferio Member UncommonPosts: 1,411

    Rather interesting that while counting all the features which should be included in a sandbox such as death penalty, free PvP, skill based character development etc, people forget the most important one: TOOLS. To me, no matter how much a game tries to create freedom promoting fetures it is not a sandbox unless it got tools. By tools I mean features which are not restricted to one use and can be used in many different ways and purposes. THAT is a sandbox. Not a game with full loot and FFAPvP..

  • Gabby-airGabby-air Member UncommonPosts: 3,440

    Runescape is perhaps one of the most underrated games in the MMO community and it is a sandbox, the amount of freedom you have is amazing. I don't believe I did a quest in that game until 3 months in because it unlocked a armor piece I wanted and the quests in Runescape are all story based with very little killing required, its all puzzles and badass bosses. You are indeed dropped into the world and after the tutorial free to do whatever the hell you want.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    Originally posted by Gabby-air

    Runescape is perhaps one of the most underrated games in the MMO community and it is a sandbox, the amount of freedom you have is amazing. I don't believe I did a quest in that game until 3 months in because it unlocked a armor piece I wanted and the quests in Runescape are all story based with very little killing required, its all puzzles and badass bosses. You are indeed dropped into the world and after the tutorial free to do whatever the hell you want.

     very true i spoke to a kids today(about 21 years old that kid)and he said to me hes been playing for a long time

    i said why ?he s like,mm the community ?im like yes it is packed but why?he said i dont we chat and stuff

    so even him had a hard time explaining it!he was hacked etc and he still play it!

    if what he say is true he has been playing from the start!i asked him why not wow instead,he s like staring at me blankly like

    wtf is he talking about!

    so yes this game is insanelly popular

    it is f2p probably one of the first works on everything lol

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    Originally posted by drbaltazar

    Originally posted by alfokenty

    Originally posted by Sheista

     

    In EVE, quests(missions), are only a means to an end.  A source of income.  

     

    A very good point. In a sandbox MMO you have to find out by yourself how to earn money. In a theme-park MMO your income is delivered to you on a plate - quests.

     so entropia universe would be a hard core sandbox then !probably the best on the planet by your definition

     Entropia is indeed a sandbox, with one of the highest focuses on real money economies that is balanced. No idea what your point is, but  Entropia does not have the complexity and depth of Eve, it is just very very grindy.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • BhazirBhazir Member Posts: 321

    Originally posted by jarby

    playing eve for about 4 years. prove me that im wrong

    Playing eve since 2004, so prove to me that Eve isn't a sandbox?

    Players can have a serieus impact on the gameworld, and if you say this is only in 0.0 or lowsec then yeah it is true. But last time I checked the map the majority was 0.0, add lowsec to that or even wormholes (also 0.0) and you sure see that it surpases empire space by a whole lot. However we have had a lot of players afraid of losing their ship and yes the majority of those do stay in empire space and like to believe that eve is a themepark.

    "If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"

    image

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