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So...what will you do when the current crop of AAA MMOs are gone and only the real F2P games are lef

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  • daltaniousdaltanious Member UncommonPosts: 2,381

    Wow and Rift will hopefully never been f2p. This duo is all I need to cover my gaming needs. So far as I'm always looking for new good alternatives ... but so far also all my efforts were .... snif ... :-) And, if somebody will like to ask why I'm looking for alternatives if im happy with Wow and Rift answer is easy: even if i love pizza ... I can not eat pizza 5 times per day 365 days per year ... so is obvious I'm looking for other loving meals to exchange from time to time. At this time playing Rift and loving it really a lot ... awesome game, impressive package (not that there is no need for evolution), .... and all this bug free.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004

    I think the assumption that AAA subscription games are going away is extremely unlikely, while individual games may disappear, there are always new ones to replace them, not many perhaps, but as long as people are willing to pay for quality games, then i think there will always be companies that try to cater to them.. the thing about f2p games is mostly that players don't tend to stay with them very long, its always a case of moving onto the next one, its a bit like a chinese takeaway, tasty.. but not really all that filling.. and an hour or so later you feel hungry again..  image

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx Member UncommonPosts: 1,541

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    If the US economy is in shambles, where does that leave most of the rest of the world?

    Australia actually did great during the economic crisis, from my limited economy knowledge. AUD rose above USD.......thats about all I know....... :D

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,803

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    If the US economy is in shambles, where does that leave most of the rest of the world?

    Australia actually did great during the economic crisis, from my limited economy knowledge. AUD rose above USD.......thats about all I know....... :D

     

    Localized differences. But what happens when China doesn't need your raw resources any more?  Many of the economies of the world are in a difficult place, because of the corruption of the politicians.  Of all parties.  All major countries have central banks, and use fiat currencies.  The entire house of cards is starting to shake. We live in "interesting" times. 

    But the "battle" between F2P, P2P or some hybrid is more about perception than substance.  I personally do not care what a games business model is, just so along as its entertaining.  As long as it is, it will have my time and money. Once it stops being entertaining, I will find something else to invest my time and money in. 

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • yahtzardyahtzard Member Posts: 36

    Originally posted by rescendent

    Originally posted by Drafell

    That just means I will have more free time to work on my own game...

    P2P, F2P or P2W? image

    F2P makes a lot of sense as long as it doesn't cross the "pay to win" line.

    A lot of people seem to get offended by a game making money when it give you a choice as to whether to pay or not; but seem fine when a game forces you to pay to play - very strange...

    Nothing strange about it...

    In a P2P everyone pays one low monthly fee ($10-20).  In return they recieve access to the same gaming world, opportunities and resources as everyone else in game.  Advantages are determined by in game mechanics, and out of game mechanics that confer an advantage are typically branded as exploits and violations the EULA.

    Truly F2P games are rare, typically suffer from low quailty, are rarely updated and support in and out of game quickly disapears if it ever exists to begin with. Why? Because they're free and when funding dries up, the unpaid developers get annoyed, or they realize that advertising revenue isn't going to pay the bills they walk away.  

    Most F2P games are P2W disguised as F2P.  They either never develope a strong payor base and suffer the fate of a true F2P or they do develope a strong payor base and then people with too much money, zero self control, or seriously destructive addictions come along and start dumping hundreds or thousands of dollars into the game on a monthly basis so that they can stroke there epeen.  

    It's the online equivilent of hanging out in a strip club... entertaining at first, but ultimately expensive and un-gratifying for most... In the end those few that do get what they came for, only succeeded in lieing to themselves about what it is they've really accomplished. 

  • yahtzardyahtzard Member Posts: 36

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Well considering all of the recent subrciption-convert-freetoplay still retains a subscription method as a premium service. I don't consider subscription method ever 'died' or even declined, but instead free to play just rose to prominence. Sure more and more players are switching to the free to play method, but subscription is still always there, they never declined, more like overshadowed. Ultimately, I think most games will offer a hybrid model, or a few exceptions to B2P (if GW2 become really finanically successful), so Subscription never will actually die as long as MMO as genre is still alive, but instead will be sharing its customers with F2P.

    I have always said so, instead of a F2P future, I think Hybrid is definitely the way to go with payment methods. MMOG requires a large playerbase, much larger than single player games, and people always want more ingame mechanics so that it suits a larger variety of players, so why should payment method follow the same principle? In order to attract a larger audience, payment method need to be more flexible, just like in real life, you can pay with credit card, up front cash or eftpos. In MMO you can either sub or use microtranscation, lifetime sub, or even B2P, all methods together for one game.

    MMO needs to be flexible in order to attract more customers, payment methods is one of them.

    While I imagine a hybrid system could work in theory, I haven't seen it successfully implimneted.  Like being half pregnant, it just doesn't work and once F2P is introduced the P2P model is corrupted.

    P2P wonder what they're paying/payed for, F2P are upset that everything isn't just given away and feel mislead by a game that isn't really free, Finally the introduction of F2P is often a eupheism for P2W.

    Just so we're clear on symantics:

    P2P - game supported by and allowing entry to subscriptions payors only.  Trials accounts being a limited exception.

    F2P - game is completely free for all to play with full functionality, supported by donations and ad revenue.

    P2W - game is free to play with limited access to valuable resources and/or functionality.  Access to valuable resources, mini-expansions and funcionality is offered on a la carte basis.  The amount and frequency of a la carte purchases and thus in game resources is often limted only by the players real world finances.

    Fluff shop - similar to P2W, however a la carte items have no impact on functionality, availability or playability of any 'usable' in game items, skills, equipment, gaming/combat areas.  Typical fluff shop items include player housing, private congregation areas and purely asthetic items.

    B2P - a single up front fee covers a lifetime subscription. May be coupled with additional, linked B2P expansions... A B2P model that offers frequent and small B2P expansions risks becoming branded as a P2W.

     

     

     

  • mizanyxmizanyx Member Posts: 70

    Stop thinking that P2P games aren't Pay To Win. Since the beginning of them, external parties incurred in RMT selling high valued items, leveling, gold, etc. Unofficially, they are Pay To Win too.

    Even in the worst P2W F2P games I've met players who defied the odds and brought down even the biggest whales with pure true skill and tactics.

    The game I'm playing currently its a korean grindfest, but its has the strange quality that no-fail-enchantment items drop randomly in game (But with very low drop rate). High level players usually buy 2 kinds of items, one adds a bonus to an equipment piece, the other randomly changes all the bonuses on an equipment piece. But, in game, items with bonuses can drop randomly too. I think that is the most balanced a F2P can get. At least I don't foresee another game mechanic that could replace the enchantment-with-fail.

  • yahtzardyahtzard Member Posts: 36

    Originally posted by mizanyx

    Stop thinking that P2P games aren't Pay To Win. Since the beginning of them, external parties incurred in RMT selling high valued items, leveling, gold, etc. Unofficially, they are Pay To Win too.

    Even in the worst P2W F2P games I've met players who defied the odds and brought down even the biggest whales with pure true skill and tactics.

    The game I'm playing currently its a korean grindfest, but its has the strange quality that no-fail-enchantment items drop randomly in game (But with very low drop rate). High level players usually buy 2 kinds of items, one adds a bonus to an equipment piece, the other randomly changes all the bonuses on an equipment piece. But, in game, items with bonuses can drop randomly too. I think that is the most balanced a F2P can get. At least I don't foresee another game mechanic that could replace the enchantment-with-fail.

    True, but the external RMT are typically operating outside the EULA, and in a well maintained game the RMT traders and those who interact with them risk having their accounts wiped... 

    Other P2P games expressly forbid RMT, but with a wink and a nod look the other way while collecting the subscription fees.  On the other hand I've heard that as the number of RMT farmers goes up so does the number of charge backs due to CC theft.

    If a free player can compete with a paying player depends on the game, some very good players will always defy the odds regardless of the billing format, but that not the same as starting on equal footing and not all paying cutomers are grossly incompetent.

    I'm just not interested in playing a game where I can tip the scales with the weight my checking account.  I prefer to keep my recreation as isolated from the daily grind as possible.

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    Originally posted by vesavius

    The question is a simple one, but reuires stepping outside of the 'now' and looking forward to answer,which is something gamer's are usually not that good at.

     

    This is the semi opinion, semi fact bit;

    What I am asking is; once the current crrop of AAA MMORPGs that have been converted to a 'Freemium' model have gotten too old for you to want to play and all that are made are cheap real 'F2P' games, what will that mean for games and gamers?

    Is the AAA sub quality MMORPG dead man walking?

    Will you happily swtich to the 'real' F2P games once they are gone or are unappealing to play anymore due to age?

     

    This is the all out opinion bit;

    The current crop of converted games, that so many love, would never have been made the way they are, from basic game design philosophy through to everything else, under a true F2P model.

    The converted AAA games are repeatedly falsely used as poster boys for all 'F2P' games, but we all know they do not represent games that are built from the ground up to exploit and push a cash shop.

    We will probably never see their like again once they have gone in all honesty. The next generation of games (anything entering development from this point onwards) will not be the same animal at all as those converted AAA ones around today.

    By then though they will have served as a bridge to all out cash shop domination (as per the REAL type of cash shop domination that the REAL'F2P' games use) and it will be too late to expect anything else because yet another generation of gamers won't expect anything better.

     

    Does this ring any alarm bells for anyone? Does anyone care about whats coming down the road as long as they have something to play today?

    For me it is simple really. There are many things to do in life and as I am getting older I have to sacrifice other things more and more to cut myself some time to play. If all that's left are F2P games , even if they are good quality ones , but they have item shops especially one offering even small advantage. I will STOP playing.

    Simple as that.

    I am currently sacrificing some things to play mmorpg's. If I would have to sacrifice some things in my life to play games in which I me and other people are lured to buy in-game shop advantages for real money.

    Why the hell would I make an effort in real life to pay money to buy myself a cheat/advantage over others or to play a game where others can get advatage over me by paying if I refuse to use item shop?

    Sorry no way in hell.

    I won't fall back on older games , I just won't care anymore. I will increase time spent on other hobbies, increase time spent with family / friends at work or wahtever else.

    Sorry I want premium quality AAA games without item shops that provide advantage and/or convenience. I might accept very few cosmetic only items. That's it. If I can't get that on market anymore. I will just stop playing.

    In past I thought I will propably play games all my life , but new business models proved me otherwise. I tried them I don't find it pleasureable to play them. If game industry won't be able to supply me with right game using business model I want (P2P) I just won't buy & use it's products.

     

     

    PS. Just to be clear. I won't accept in games I play also things like legal RMT. Buying in-game gold or legal traiding of characters / items. I want game studios to fight / ban sellers and buyers and not to 'legalize' whole procedeer. True game developers might don't want to do that anymore. It is their right. It is my right also to stop playing their games.

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    double post sorry

    mods delete this post pls

     

  • mizanyxmizanyx Member Posts: 70

    Originally posted by yahtzard

    Originally posted by mizanyx

    Stop thinking that P2P games aren't Pay To Win. Since the beginning of them, external parties incurred in RMT selling high valued items, leveling, gold, etc. Unofficially, they are Pay To Win too.

    Even in the worst P2W F2P games I've met players who defied the odds and brought down even the biggest whales with pure true skill and tactics.

    The game I'm playing currently its a korean grindfest, but its has the strange quality that no-fail-enchantment items drop randomly in game (But with very low drop rate). High level players usually buy 2 kinds of items, one adds a bonus to an equipment piece, the other randomly changes all the bonuses on an equipment piece. But, in game, items with bonuses can drop randomly too. I think that is the most balanced a F2P can get. At least I don't foresee another game mechanic that could replace the enchantment-with-fail.

    True, but the external RMT are typically operating outside the EULA, and in a well maintained game the RMT traders and those who interact with them risk having their accounts wiped... 

    Other P2P games expressly forbid RMT, but with a wink and a nod look the other way while collecting the subscription fees.  On the other hand I've heard that as the number of RMT farmers goes up so does the number of charge backs due to CC theft.

    If a free player can compete with a paying player depends on the game, some very good players will always defy the odds regardless of the billing format, but that not the same as starting on equal footing and not all paying cutomers are grossly incompetent.

    I'm just not interested in playing a game where I can tip the scales with the weight my checking account.  I prefer to keep my recreation as isolated from the daily grind as possible.

    You don't want to play a MMORPG really then. In a MMORPG you 'tip the scales' either with a moneysink (item mall) or with a boring repetitive timesink (P2P). You probably are more interested in playing true pure skill games, like MMOFPSs or MOBAs. In a MOBA like LoL the best you can get with the item mall is access to newer champions earlier than non paying users, but as champions tend to be balanced, thats usually not enough to give you a significant advantage.

    A MMORPG combat is determined by how much have you invested, being it in time, money, or both.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    F2P presents an interesting solution to the changing playerbase as years went by.

    Back when games were 'new', gamers were your typical young 10-18 males, lots of time but little income.

    Now your average gamer is 35+ and have less time but more income.

    To try and meet that makes sense. From a player's perspective and business perspective.

    If I was given between 5 dollars or 5 hours of grinding, i'll take the 5 dollar option (as long as it is offical like item shops) because I rather get that to do XYZ rather than grind for 5 hours and save 5 dollars.

    As long as things can be obtained via in-game currency as well as RL, I don't see the issue.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    Originally posted by jpnz

    If I was given between 5 dollars or 5 hours of grinding, i'll take the 5 dollar option (as long as it is offical like item shops) because I rather get that to do XYZ rather than grind for 5 hours and save 5 dollars.

    As long as things can be obtained via in-game currency as well as RL, I don't see the issue.

    Yes that is true.

    What is bad in this solution is that there are people that want to play game while not having option to buy XYZ in item store. Why those people are against option?

    Simple really.

    Let's use your (modified becasue prices in itme stores lately are going higher) example:

    I am young adult , and I definately can earn more than f.e 15$ in 5 hours.  Then to get XYZ takes 5 hours as well.

    So If I would not buy this XYZ in item shop, I will act "illogically" and I will "lose" money.

    I want to actually play a game and not feel like I "lose" money by doing so.

    It is very simple psychological mechanism that game makers are aware of and they exploit it which results in milking players. Game and item shop items and their prices are designed to create feeling of "saving time" even though this XYZ might not even be in game if not item shop existence.

     

    Ok why I do have personally problem with that?

     

    I want to actually play a game and "earn" XYZ's in game. At same time I don't want to feel I "wasted time" by not buying those XYZ's becasue I would earn more money in RL than I might spend on XYZ's in item store.

    So F2P games are punishing me if I actually play a game and don't use item store. I don't want to feel punished and bad while playing a game. That is why I don't like and play anymore (even though I tried few times in past) F2P games.


    Originally posted by jpnz

    F2P presents an interesting solution to the changing playerbase as years went by.

    Back when games were 'new', gamers were your typical young 10-18 males, lots of time but little income.

    While that might be true in case of SP games , that is not whole truth in mmorpg's.

    In early mmorpg's like Ultima Online or Everquest I , majority of players were young adult males as well. Amount of children was really small.

    First mmorpg with alot of children of 10+ years was World of Warcraft. But even in WoW there were alot of young adult males ranging 20-40 years.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Sulaa

     

    /snip

    Ok why I do have personally problem with that?

     I want to actually play a game and "earn" XYZ's in game. At same time I don't want to feel I "wasted time" by not buying those XYZ's becasue I would earn more money in RL than I might spend on XYZ's in item store.

    So F2P games are punishing me if I actually play a game and don't use item store. I don't want to feel punished and bad while playing a game. That is why I don't like and play anymore (even though I tried few times in past) F2P games.

    /snip


     

    How one spends the time to play a game for XYZ is up to one's individual choice.

    If grinding 5 hours of boring stuff for XYZ is not worth grinding for you then no one is forcing you to spend RL money on it.

    F2P games are presenting a choice and it is up to the individual to choose. Don't see the 'punish' here.

    If the 5 hours are boring then why play a boring game?

    If the 5 hours of boredom is worth the XYZ you get to do after, then cool!

    Once again, it is up to the individual to make that choice. I completely see the other side of the argument but for me, as long as the XYZ can be obtained in-game as well, I'm okay with that.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • For me its quite simple

     

    No AAA any more = i will not play MMORPGS anymore.

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