I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Personally, I will play Solitaire or Minesweeper if I don't feel like accomplishing much in a game. I prefer my time in MMORPGs to be intelectually stimulating. To me grinding in MMORPGs is the equivalent of reality TV.
I think worlds are a complete waste of time without good gameplay.
You may have player ran economy, politics and have players effecting the world and all that crap but if you don't have a good combat system for example, your game is a bust.
To me at least most MMOs fail on the basics like dull combat and controls, or generic IP and art style.
On the other hand, most MMOs out today totally forget the myriad elements that present a good RP experience as they focus almost exclusively on combat to the exclusion of all else.
I much prefer going in to a world and deciding which of a number of things I feel like doing tonight. Now, you may not get all that excited about spending an evening with your GF shopping for clothes or paintings (A la SWG) and I probably wouldn't either if that were the only thing to do. But that was far from the case.
Combat in SWG *SUCKED*, even in the so-called glory days of pre-CU. But it didn't suck if you were just out there having fun with your friends.
So, when coming in to a game like SWG, you could craft, you could fly in space, you could fight on the ground. You could PvE, you could PvP. You could go to a party and compete in speeder races and watch the fireworks. You could explore. You could spend the night looking for new premium resources or managing your factories. You could go to the cantinas and RP. On and on.
Today's games have singular focus and pretty close to zero social aspect.
My point with games like SWG is sure you have a lot of stuff to do but how much of it is fun to do?
I played SWG, and I didn't really like anything the game had to offer, it was all rather dull.
I tend to prefer quality over quantity, I would rather play a game that did 1 thing but did it very well than a game that did 10 things but none of them particulary well.
And I do think there is a cost of quality when you take on more and more mechanics.
Here's the thing with virtual worlds: They gave the player a wide variety of options in gameplay. Because the virtual world's aim is to try just that, being a different world for your character to exist.
If you want to be a combatant fighting all the time, PvE or PvP, you can of course do that. In PvP, you obviously had people known to be skilled PvPers.
If you wanted to become a leading crafter / merchant on your server, you can try to make that happen.
In SWG's case back in the day, you had players making completely non-combat oriented characters. All their skillpoints completely dedicated to abilities outside combat. Some crafters (obviously) and some even social professions (Entertainers: Dancers, musicians, etc). All the non-combat skills had something to contribute to the community and gameplay, even Dancers and such. You had players who were reknown on the server as reputable weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, shipwrights, chefs, etc. Enough to a point where you had loyalty to certain crafters. I even recall party members during a break in fighting actually debating who the best weaponsmith or whatever on the server was. I recall visiting a favorite weaponsmith's shop enough times and running into him restocking or running his store that I got special deals from him as a repeat customer, which also helped me spread the "Good Word" about his shop to other players.
Now, for a guy like you that was only concerned with combat, that's fine, and you could focus your time and efforts in such a gaming route. I was primarily a combat oriented guy myself, and I was regularly decked out in Imperial uniforms and armor in SWG.
As much as I love shooting holes into things or causing big explosions, there were times I wanted to try my hand at other things. But here's the thing... when you wanted to do something else, you had OPTIONS. Options outside of "combat and only combat." I'm not talking an overly simple mini-game. I'm talking about stuff that had depth in gameplay equal to the depth in combat. SWG's crafting system for instance is still the best, deepest crafting system I have seen or heard of in any MMORPG to date, and I will bet the farm on that. A system that enabled a wide variety of stats for a single item. All determined by what the crafter knew and what resources (as well as quality of resources) used.
What this lead to was the game being a "Virtual World." Lots of people going about a wide variety of business. It promoted a livelier game world than mindless NPCs running around ever will. And a fun part of seeing all this varied actitivies occuring even though I wasn't trying it all at that point? I knew that if I wanted to, I can do anything, any of those wide variety of activities that other players can do. Everybody, and I mean everybody, had something to contribute to the game and community. The player community was tight knit on each server, regardless of size (even between the Rebel & Imperial guilds / PAs).
Pre-NGE SWG was the last MMORPG that I saw and experienced where you had players totally dedicated to non-combat aspects of the game. And they liked it. And if you wanted to try and make your mark on the server and be something like the best d*mn Weaponsmith there was? You could. If you wanted to be known as a great PvPer, even among the different factions? You could. The key difference with a Virtual World and a 1-trick pony MMORPG only good with combat is that you had OPTIONS.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Personally, I will play Solitaire or Minesweeper if I don't feel like accomplishing much in a game. I prefer my time in MMORPGs to be intelectually stimulating. To me grinding in MMORPGs is the equivalent of reality TV.
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play? I don't understand the short-sightedness of such things. You spend 30 minitues and get a level. That's ok, but taking a week to get a level is a waste of time? I would consider it much more of an achievement if the thing I'm enjoying actually takes some effort. That's why players used to congratulate others when they leveled. Every time they leveled, it was an achievement. Now, players only get grats at the cap, if at all. A monkey could do it.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
as of today? no never, and for people who already found that its their vitrual life, its pretty sad. but whatever if they like it.
in the future maybe when games gives such a huge experience and content that u can literlly live in that world only to go afk IRL for sleep and eat and other needs, then I might consider voting games, but as of today. no, games should not focus on real life thingy....
I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Personally, I will play Solitaire or Minesweeper if I don't feel like accomplishing much in a game. I prefer my time in MMORPGs to be intelectually stimulating. To me grinding in MMORPGs is the equivalent of reality TV.
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play? I don't understand the short-sightedness of such things. You spend 30 minitues and get a level. That's ok, but taking a week to get a level is a waste of time? I would consider it much more of an achievement if the thing I'm enjoying actually takes some effort. That's why players used to congratulate others when they leveled. Every time they leveled, it was an achievement. Now, players only get grats at the cap, if at all. A monkey could do it.
I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Personally, I will play Solitaire or Minesweeper if I don't feel like accomplishing much in a game. I prefer my time in MMORPGs to be intelectually stimulating. To me grinding in MMORPGs is the equivalent of reality TV.
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play? I don't understand the short-sightedness of such things. You spend 30 minitues and get a level. That's ok, but taking a week to get a level is a waste of time? I would consider it much more of an achievement if the thing I'm enjoying actually takes some effort. That's why players used to congratulate others when they leveled. Every time they leveled, it was an achievement. Now, players only get grats at the cap, if at all. A monkey could do it.
Ain't that the truth these days.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
On this forum, I often see people asking for a game that can waste untold amount of hours into it, almost like a virtual life. Do people really want that, that you have to spend 5 or 6+ hours into a game per day in order to have fun?
Personally I never found that kinda lifestyle to be healthy, but to be honest, I just want a game, not a virtual life. A game isn't about constant raiding for gear, nor is it about this grind to collect resources or level up. I often find MMOG contradict the idea of a game, despite G stands for Game. Every game, every great game, needs an ending, yet MMOG can't provide that, not until the server are close.
Do you think it will be for the best if MMOG don't require you to repeat much of the content, and simply allow you to have a resolution in the end of the game? This is actually one of my worries for SWTOR (not bashing ok?), the game constantly focus on the greatness of bioware storytelling, it works in a single player environment, because you will eventually hit the end of the game and it provides you with a resolve, but this won't happen in a MMO bioware game. I understand each class has a unique story, so I technically have to play the game through 6 times in order to complete it, but you get what I mean, the story doesn't really end, and nothing is worse than that.
A story isn't quite a story until you hit the end of the game, and simply, MMOG doesn't allow that, it becomes a virtual life where you have to repeat the content, again and again. Not to mention the game part (leveling up/progression) is such a chore as well.
So here I ask you, should the MMO genre be developed with a mindset to be a game, or a virtual life. (obviously the payment method should reflect this as well)
I'm not sure I understand you right - but you're constantly writing about "virtual life" and that it would take too much time. I haven't read any post from people here wanting a virtual "life". Many people on these boards however want a virtual "world" instead.
And, for the record, I get the impression that people playing "games" (raiding, be it PvE or PvP) spent much more time in their game than people spent time living in their virtual world.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I want a world with day/night and weather cycles. A world without invisibles walls, where you can travel across the world without loading screens, instancing or multiple copies of zones. It would be interesting if resources could be gathered to build items, instead of things being awarded to you for completing a quest. Housing would also be something I'm interested in.
Virtual reality is something I would definitely be interested in, but we are not even close to being there yet.
The planets in Entropia Universe are all semeless with day/night cycles. (no real weather cycles though)
It also has housing/estates/shops/booths and land ownership.
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play?
Not to stir up the hornet's nest, but back before UO's launch I once played a character every night for eight months without gaining a single level--and loved every minute. Roleplay can do that; I'm not sure any MMO will ever do it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play? I don't understand the short-sightedness of such things. You spend 30 minitues and get a level. That's ok, but taking a week to get a level is a waste of time? I would consider it much more of an achievement if the thing I'm enjoying actually takes some effort. That's why players used to congratulate others when they leveled. Every time they leveled, it was an achievement. Now, players only get grats at the cap, if at all. A monkey could do it.
I've played EQ2 long enough to remember both a time when leveling up was challenging and being congratulated in chat felt well-earned, up to now (or the later years), I feel as though I leveled accidentally and I am given many Grats! when it was nothing really. Its weird.
Damn all this virual world talk makes me want to go back to Neocron =(
Here's the thing with virtual worlds: They gave the player a wide variety of options in gameplay. Because the virtual world's aim is to try just that, being a different world for your character to exist.
If you want to be a combatant fighting all the time, PvE or PvP, you can of course do that. In PvP, you obviously had people known to be skilled PvPers.
If you wanted to become a leading crafter / merchant on your server, you can try to make that happen.
In SWG's case back in the day, you had players making completely non-combat oriented characters. All their skillpoints completely dedicated to abilities outside combat. Some crafters (obviously) and some even social professions (Entertainers: Dancers, musicians, etc). All the non-combat skills had something to contribute to the community and gameplay, even Dancers and such. You had players who were reknown on the server as reputable weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, shipwrights, chefs, etc. Enough to a point where you had loyalty to certain crafters. I even recall party members during a break in fighting actually debating who the best weaponsmith or whatever on the server was. I recall visiting a favorite weaponsmith's shop enough times and running into him restocking or running his store that I got special deals from him as a repeat customer, which also helped me spread the "Good Word" about his shop to other players.
Now, for a guy like you that was only concerned with combat, that's fine, and you could focus your time and efforts in such a gaming route. I was primarily a combat oriented guy myself, and I was regularly decked out in Imperial uniforms and armor in SWG.
As much as I love shooting holes into things or causing big explosions, there were times I wanted to try my hand at other things. But here's the thing... when you wanted to do something else, you had OPTIONS. Options outside of "combat and only combat." I'm not talking an overly simple mini-game. I'm talking about stuff that had depth in gameplay equal to the depth in combat. SWG's crafting system for instance is still the best, deepest crafting system I have seen or heard of in any MMORPG to date, and I will bet the farm on that. A system that enabled a wide variety of stats for a single item. All determined by what the crafter knew and what resources (as well as quality of resources) used.
What this lead to was the game being a "Virtual World." Lots of people going about a wide variety of business. It promoted a livelier game world than mindless NPCs running around ever will. And a fun part of seeing all this varied actitivies occuring even though I wasn't trying it all at that point? I knew that if I wanted to, I can do anything, any of those wide variety of activities that other players can do. Everybody, and I mean everybody, had something to contribute to the game and community. The player community was tight knit on each server, regardless of size (even between the Rebel & Imperial guilds / PAs).
Pre-NGE SWG was the last MMORPG that I saw and experienced where you had players totally dedicated to non-combat aspects of the game. And they liked it. And if you wanted to try and make your mark on the server and be something like the best d*mn Weaponsmith there was? You could. If you wanted to be known as a great PvPer, even among the different factions? You could. The key difference with a Virtual World and a 1-trick pony MMORPG only good with combat is that you had OPTIONS.
There is a cost to all those options though,
SWG PvE wasn't that great in my opinion, so if I wanted to just PvE then SWG would not be satisfactory.
I think having a great breadth of mechanics in a game tends not to attract players interested in a specific type of gameplay because there wasn't enough development time put into the particular mechanic to keep the enthusiasts happy.
So I think that having a large breadth in content like that really only attracts players that want a large variety of gamepley types and do not focus overly on one type.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Personally, I will play Solitaire or Minesweeper if I don't feel like accomplishing much in a game. I prefer my time in MMORPGs to be intelectually stimulating. To me grinding in MMORPGs is the equivalent of reality TV.
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play? I don't understand the short-sightedness of such things. You spend 30 minitues and get a level. That's ok, but taking a week to get a level is a waste of time? I would consider it much more of an achievement if the thing I'm enjoying actually takes some effort. That's why players used to congratulate others when they leveled. Every time they leveled, it was an achievement. Now, players only get grats at the cap, if at all. A monkey could do it.
I don't consider gaining a level to be any sort of real accomplishment no matter how long it takes. It is just an arbitrary number used to fool the player into thinking that they have progressed.
I measure accomplishment by how much you have learned as a player and how much your player skills (not character skills) have improved. Once I stop improving in an activity I stop accomplishing things.
I used to congratulate my guildies every time they leveled. Then I realized how hollow that was most of the time. They just did the same exact activity they did for the last few levels and there was really nothing to congratulate them for.
I don't really understand the short-sighteness of people willing to participate in an activity that has lost any intellectual simulation for them. I really wish MMORPGs stopped catering to these types of lowest common denominator activities.
I answered muffins. Why? Because you made the mistake of assuming that those that want a "virtual life" want a dry, dead, repetitive game. Frankly, I expect the developers to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years. Now whether that takes loads of updates, expansions, and whatnot....I don't really care My part in the equation is to buy and play the games, and that I will do. They just need to do their part and make them more entertaining.
I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Personally, I will play Solitaire or Minesweeper if I don't feel like accomplishing much in a game. I prefer my time in MMORPGs to be intelectually stimulating. To me grinding in MMORPGs is the equivalent of reality TV.
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play? I don't understand the short-sightedness of such things. You spend 30 minitues and get a level. That's ok, but taking a week to get a level is a waste of time? I would consider it much more of an achievement if the thing I'm enjoying actually takes some effort. That's why players used to congratulate others when they leveled. Every time they leveled, it was an achievement. Now, players only get grats at the cap, if at all. A monkey could do it.
I don't consider gaining a level to be any sort of real accomplishment no matter how long it takes. It is just an arbitrary number used to fool the player into thinking that they have progressed.
I measure accomplishment by how much you have learned as a player and how much your player skills (not character skills) have improved. Once I stop improving in an activity I stop accomplishing things.
I used to congratulate my guildies every time they leveled. Then I realized how hollow that was most of the time. They just did the same exact activity they did for the last few levels and there was really nothing to congratulate them for.
I don't really understand the short-sighteness of people willing to participate in an activity that has lost any intellectual simulation for them. I really wish MMORPGs stopped catering to these types of lowest common denominator activities.
I get what you are saying. I don't like droning on and on to "accomplish" things either. I'm just saying that sometimes the idea that something might take a little longer, or be more difficult to accomplish, adds merit to the activity itself, without there having to be some reward or achievement for it. In my first example, it might take all day to travel from one place to another, but in that time I can chat with friends, or maybe even meet some new ones along the way. I don't mind the long travel times, because they have merit, without being directly rewarding. What activities in MMOGs do you find intelectually stimulating?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I answered muffins. Why? Because you made the mistake of assuming that those that want a "virtual life" want a dry, dead, repetitive game. Frankly, I expect the developers to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years. Now whether that takes loads of updates, expansions, and whatnot....I don't really care My part in the equation is to buy and play the games, and that I will do. They just need to do their part and make them more entertaining.
Fac it, you chose muffins because they are the best :P
but I'm basing off the idea fof 'virtual life' from modern games, not what could happen in the future, as far as I know, no MMOG out there offer "to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years." do you know why? because developers and players are so focus on having untold amount of content, but in fact, no amount of developers can keep up to the pace that players are burning through them, so in the end, we are left to repeat the content we have completed, but they weren't designed to be repeated. Unless players can drop the mindset that content means great game, asking developers to release with content rivaling WoW, you will never have any hope in seeing the creativity you want in games.
Don't everyone have this one game they constantly come back to, single player or online, playing the game simply because it was fun to do so, not to grind some digital pixels like armor? Thats the kind of design we need to see MMOG, not more raiding and gear grinding
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I answered muffins. Why? Because you made the mistake of assuming that those that want a "virtual life" want a dry, dead, repetitive game. Frankly, I expect the developers to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years. Now whether that takes loads of updates, expansions, and whatnot....I don't really care My part in the equation is to buy and play the games, and that I will do. They just need to do their part and make them more entertaining.
Fac it, you chose muffins because they are the best :P
but I'm basing off the idea fof 'virtual life' from modern games, not what could happen in the future, as far as I know, no MMOG out there offer "to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years." do you know why? because developers and players are so focus on having untold amount of content, but in fact, no amount of developers can keep up to the pace that players are burning through them, so in the end, we are left to repeat the content we have completed, but they weren't designed to be repeated. Unless players can drop the mindset that content means great game, asking developers to release with content rivaling WoW, you will never have any hope in seeing the creativity you want in games.
Don't everyone have this one game they constantly come back to, single player or online, playing the game simply because it was fun to do so, not to grind some digital pixels like armor? Thats the kind of design we need to see MMOG, not more raiding and gear grinding
I think this is why people want sandbox. So players can fill in that void in content themselves. Of course, they need to be given the tools to do so.
I answered muffins. Why? Because you made the mistake of assuming that those that want a "virtual life" want a dry, dead, repetitive game. Frankly, I expect the developers to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years. Now whether that takes loads of updates, expansions, and whatnot....I don't really care My part in the equation is to buy and play the games, and that I will do. They just need to do their part and make them more entertaining.
Fac it, you chose muffins because they are the best :P
but I'm basing off the idea fof 'virtual life' from modern games, not what could happen in the future, as far as I know, no MMOG out there offer "to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years." do you know why? because developers and players are so focus on having untold amount of content, but in fact, no amount of developers can keep up to the pace that players are burning through them, so in the end, we are left to repeat the content we have completed, but they weren't designed to be repeated. Unless players can drop the mindset that content means great game, asking developers to release with content rivaling WoW, you will never have any hope in seeing the creativity you want in games.
Don't everyone have this one game they constantly come back to, single player or online, playing the game simply because it was fun to do so, not to grind some digital pixels like armor? Thats the kind of design we need to see MMOG, not more raiding and gear grinding
I think this is why people want sandbox. So players can fill in that void in content themselves. Of course, they need to be given the tools to do so.
Something like little big planet will be nice :P that game probably have the bestest player created content ever. Look it up on youtube, from a normal platforming game, the player creation spawn from basketball to bumpercarts.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Both actually. The pplayers should also be able to shape the world, through their actions. That way nothing may be repetitive( or seem that way) If a players actions effect the events of the game then, other players will be forced to react. And by having so many types of players ( aggressive, passive, heros, bad guys, and those who just want to annoy others), the game would be enjoyable, and thus unpredictale, so fun.So to me the virtual life has to be fun if done correctly, (My way) This way the game doesn't get boring or repetitive, while not neccessarily the story is user generated, some content and unscripted events will be.
Both, you need a world that makes the game itself seem fun. If you put the game in a bland world with nothing but the same thing over and over (LOTRO had this issue with killing boars, jeeezzzz), then you're going to play something else. I don't want Wurm Online as the template for the MMO, but I do like the fact it has a large world, which itself should be a template for the map at the minimum.
Virtual life for sure, it wouldn't be an mmo without it. I think this is exactly where lie the difference between board like and single player rpg games and mmos. Still they have to lower down the usuall chore life is made of, easier travel, speed crafting...
I didn't. I found it to be dull, lifeless and ugly. But that is just me. YMMV
Ok then, point made. What's immersive to me is not to you and vice versa.
With MW I perfectly understand those who say "I was just plopped down in the world with very little direction and didn't know what to do!".
Well, I kinda like that. Reminds me of my early EQ days.
You can play and enjoy MW without ever doing a single quest if you don't want to. I liked reading books and learning about the lore of the land. I suppose to many that's boring. I liked that exploring the world was the ONLY way to find a lot of the content and neat stuff. I liked that I could just wander about and create my own stories and adventures.
To me, THAT is role play. Speaking in Olde English is NOT role play (I jest... sort of ).
See, Morrowind is not a game that you beat. It's a place you live.
Morrowind belongs in my top 5 best games ive ever played. I play sinds early 90s many many games.
On this forum, I often see people asking for a game that can waste untold amount of hours into it, almost like a virtual life. Do people really want that, that you have to spend 5 or 6+ hours into a game per day in order to have fun?
I use to feel that this genre is the closest I can get gaming wise into a virtual world and would evolve on that, oh and I am sorry even though I love a good sandbox virtual world this does NOT mean I am able to spend 5 to 6+ hours a day. Thankfully I don't have to spend that much time a day due to this genre where I can take my time. I know a virtual game-life takes time so I take my time and don't really care about the lvl but make up my own adventure/story/friends where lvling just happens without the focus on it.
Personally I never found that kinda lifestyle to be healthy, but to be honest, I just want a game, not a virtual life. A game isn't about constant raiding for gear, nor is it about this grind to collect resources or level up. I often find MMOG contradict the idea of a game, despite G stands for Game. Every game, every great game, needs an ending, yet MMOG can't provide that, not until the server are close.
I geuss it depends on what type of gamer you are, myself am a alround gamer, meaning I play all sorts of genre in gaming, I enjoy plenty of on-rails type of games like singleplayer FPS, action RPG, I also love RTS both the arcade ones like C&C or the more complex ones like Sins of a Solar, I also like certain puzzle adventure games or more indepth singleplayer RPG's like Morrowind or Twoworlds. But when I enter a MMORPG I don't want it to feel like a similar experiance I already find in other genre, I want a MMORPG experiance to go beyond that what I already play in other genre's, which leaves me in wanting a MMORPG that is more a virtual world to play in. I also don't like raiding, though I might do a raid here and there but I could care less to get that übersword of madness if it takes me 20 runs into the same dungeon or area. I do love collecting items, resources, valuable's mixed into a in depth crafting system. I like to create items/weapons/housing/(space)ships/vehicles/armours/etc....that I am able to sell/trade/auction for credit or fame.
Do you think it will be for the best if MMOG don't require you to repeat much of the content, and simply allow you to have a resolution in the end of the game? This is actually one of my worries for SWTOR (not bashing ok?), the game constantly focus on the greatness of bioware storytelling, it works in a single player environment, because you will eventually hit the end of the game and it provides you with a resolve, but this won't happen in a MMO bioware game. I understand each class has a unique story, so I technically have to play the game through 6 times in order to complete it, but you get what I mean, the story doesn't really end, and nothing is worse than that.
I personaly can't really comment on a game I haven't had a chance on playing to see how it actually works.
A story isn't quite a story until you hit the end of the game, and simply, MMOG doesn't allow that, it becomes a virtual life where you have to repeat the content, again and again. Not to mention the game part (leveling up/progression) is such a chore as well.
To me most themepark/limited on-rails MMORPG's are the ones who let's it's player repeat the content over and over again (see WoW) A virtual world you would have the option to do this but since it's a virtual world there would be plenty of other options/choices/feature's that make it a ongoing world game.
So here I ask you, should the MMO genre be developed with a mindset to be a game, or a virtual life. (obviously the payment method should reflect this as well)
I always thought this genre would evolve more into virtual worlds instead of the limited online games that been created the last couple of years, as said already play and enjoy other genre's of gaming so why can't this genre evolve into more then what we already can get out of other genre's?
A lot of the chore of life could be dealth with during offline hours, i don't know like crafting. It make no sense to have to watch your toon smelt ore for hours when he could do it offline, same with training, but devs are very short sighted honestly. Same with gold making, i never understood why your toon couldn't have a profession when offline, like bartender, it would make the game a lot more lifely; and make sense. But as said dev don't give a crap about all those, sadely.
A lot of the chore of life could be dealth with during offline hours, i don't know like crafting. It make no sense to have to watch your toon smelt ore for hours when he could do it offline, same with training, but devs are very short sighted honestly. Same with gold making, i never understood why your toon couldn't have a profession when offline, like bartender, it would make the game a lot more lifely; and make sense. But as said dev don't give a crap about all those, sadely.
Well what you find a chore (f.e. crafting ) I find intresting to play if crafting system is ok and crafted items are at least on par with loot items.
So making it offfline would break game for me tbh. Same with making gold ,etc
With all this it would leave only combat and questing to do. Like in WoW. Well even less than in WoW .
I want to have other things to do apart of fighting , so when I am bored of combat I go crafting , or exploring or socializing or sailing ,etc
So no please no.
Edit: Besides I think there will be offline crafting in SWTOR so you might want to look at this game.
Comments
I already played Pac-Man. I'm ready to try the Holodeck.
I think the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the virtual worlds is that it does take a long time to accomplish things, generally. For example, you might spend your entire play session (two to three hours for me) travelling from one place to another. And the actual travel might not even be that exciting. And that's ok to me. I enjoy it. I don't mind if I am stuck at the same level for a week even though I'm XP grouping every day. I don't think those old mechanics were bad. I actually enjoyed being able to take my time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Personally, I will play Solitaire or Minesweeper if I don't feel like accomplishing much in a game. I prefer my time in MMORPGs to be intelectually stimulating. To me grinding in MMORPGs is the equivalent of reality TV.
Here's the thing with virtual worlds: They gave the player a wide variety of options in gameplay. Because the virtual world's aim is to try just that, being a different world for your character to exist.
If you want to be a combatant fighting all the time, PvE or PvP, you can of course do that. In PvP, you obviously had people known to be skilled PvPers.
If you wanted to become a leading crafter / merchant on your server, you can try to make that happen.
In SWG's case back in the day, you had players making completely non-combat oriented characters. All their skillpoints completely dedicated to abilities outside combat. Some crafters (obviously) and some even social professions (Entertainers: Dancers, musicians, etc). All the non-combat skills had something to contribute to the community and gameplay, even Dancers and such. You had players who were reknown on the server as reputable weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, shipwrights, chefs, etc. Enough to a point where you had loyalty to certain crafters. I even recall party members during a break in fighting actually debating who the best weaponsmith or whatever on the server was. I recall visiting a favorite weaponsmith's shop enough times and running into him restocking or running his store that I got special deals from him as a repeat customer, which also helped me spread the "Good Word" about his shop to other players.
Now, for a guy like you that was only concerned with combat, that's fine, and you could focus your time and efforts in such a gaming route. I was primarily a combat oriented guy myself, and I was regularly decked out in Imperial uniforms and armor in SWG.
As much as I love shooting holes into things or causing big explosions, there were times I wanted to try my hand at other things. But here's the thing... when you wanted to do something else, you had OPTIONS. Options outside of "combat and only combat." I'm not talking an overly simple mini-game. I'm talking about stuff that had depth in gameplay equal to the depth in combat. SWG's crafting system for instance is still the best, deepest crafting system I have seen or heard of in any MMORPG to date, and I will bet the farm on that. A system that enabled a wide variety of stats for a single item. All determined by what the crafter knew and what resources (as well as quality of resources) used.
What this lead to was the game being a "Virtual World." Lots of people going about a wide variety of business. It promoted a livelier game world than mindless NPCs running around ever will. And a fun part of seeing all this varied actitivies occuring even though I wasn't trying it all at that point? I knew that if I wanted to, I can do anything, any of those wide variety of activities that other players can do. Everybody, and I mean everybody, had something to contribute to the game and community. The player community was tight knit on each server, regardless of size (even between the Rebel & Imperial guilds / PAs).
Pre-NGE SWG was the last MMORPG that I saw and experienced where you had players totally dedicated to non-combat aspects of the game. And they liked it. And if you wanted to try and make your mark on the server and be something like the best d*mn Weaponsmith there was? You could. If you wanted to be known as a great PvPer, even among the different factions? You could. The key difference with a Virtual World and a 1-trick pony MMORPG only good with combat is that you had OPTIONS.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Not that far off the mark, I'd say. Why do you have to accomplish something every time you play? I don't understand the short-sightedness of such things. You spend 30 minitues and get a level. That's ok, but taking a week to get a level is a waste of time? I would consider it much more of an achievement if the thing I'm enjoying actually takes some effort. That's why players used to congratulate others when they leveled. Every time they leveled, it was an achievement. Now, players only get grats at the cap, if at all. A monkey could do it.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
as of today? no never, and for people who already found that its their vitrual life, its pretty sad. but whatever if they like it.
in the future maybe when games gives such a huge experience and content that u can literlly live in that world only to go afk IRL for sleep and eat and other needs, then I might consider voting games, but as of today. no, games should not focus on real life thingy....
therefore muffins!
Agree Palebane.
Ain't that the truth these days.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I'm not sure I understand you right - but you're constantly writing about "virtual life" and that it would take too much time. I haven't read any post from people here wanting a virtual "life". Many people on these boards however want a virtual "world" instead.
And, for the record, I get the impression that people playing "games" (raiding, be it PvE or PvP) spent much more time in their game than people spent time living in their virtual world.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
The planets in Entropia Universe are all semeless with day/night cycles. (no real weather cycles though)
It also has housing/estates/shops/booths and land ownership.
Playing with Real Money: Colonizing Virtual Worlds
Not to stir up the hornet's nest, but back before UO's launch I once played a character every night for eight months without gaining a single level--and loved every minute. Roleplay can do that; I'm not sure any MMO will ever do it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I've played EQ2 long enough to remember both a time when leveling up was challenging and being congratulated in chat felt well-earned, up to now (or the later years), I feel as though I leveled accidentally and I am given many Grats! when it was nothing really. Its weird.
Damn all this virual world talk makes me want to go back to Neocron =(
There is a cost to all those options though,
SWG PvE wasn't that great in my opinion, so if I wanted to just PvE then SWG would not be satisfactory.
I think having a great breadth of mechanics in a game tends not to attract players interested in a specific type of gameplay because there wasn't enough development time put into the particular mechanic to keep the enthusiasts happy.
So I think that having a large breadth in content like that really only attracts players that want a large variety of gamepley types and do not focus overly on one type.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I don't consider gaining a level to be any sort of real accomplishment no matter how long it takes. It is just an arbitrary number used to fool the player into thinking that they have progressed.
I measure accomplishment by how much you have learned as a player and how much your player skills (not character skills) have improved. Once I stop improving in an activity I stop accomplishing things.
I used to congratulate my guildies every time they leveled. Then I realized how hollow that was most of the time. They just did the same exact activity they did for the last few levels and there was really nothing to congratulate them for.
I don't really understand the short-sighteness of people willing to participate in an activity that has lost any intellectual simulation for them. I really wish MMORPGs stopped catering to these types of lowest common denominator activities.
OP,
I answered muffins. Why? Because you made the mistake of assuming that those that want a "virtual life" want a dry, dead, repetitive game. Frankly, I expect the developers to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years. Now whether that takes loads of updates, expansions, and whatnot....I don't really care My part in the equation is to buy and play the games, and that I will do. They just need to do their part and make them more entertaining.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I get what you are saying. I don't like droning on and on to "accomplish" things either. I'm just saying that sometimes the idea that something might take a little longer, or be more difficult to accomplish, adds merit to the activity itself, without there having to be some reward or achievement for it. In my first example, it might take all day to travel from one place to another, but in that time I can chat with friends, or maybe even meet some new ones along the way. I don't mind the long travel times, because they have merit, without being directly rewarding. What activities in MMOGs do you find intelectually stimulating?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Fac it, you chose muffins because they are the best :P
but I'm basing off the idea fof 'virtual life' from modern games, not what could happen in the future, as far as I know, no MMOG out there offer "to get more creative and figure out ways BESIDES being endlessly repetitive...to entertain gamers for years." do you know why? because developers and players are so focus on having untold amount of content, but in fact, no amount of developers can keep up to the pace that players are burning through them, so in the end, we are left to repeat the content we have completed, but they weren't designed to be repeated. Unless players can drop the mindset that content means great game, asking developers to release with content rivaling WoW, you will never have any hope in seeing the creativity you want in games.
Don't everyone have this one game they constantly come back to, single player or online, playing the game simply because it was fun to do so, not to grind some digital pixels like armor? Thats the kind of design we need to see MMOG, not more raiding and gear grinding
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I think this is why people want sandbox. So players can fill in that void in content themselves. Of course, they need to be given the tools to do so.
Something like little big planet will be nice :P that game probably have the bestest player created content ever. Look it up on youtube, from a normal platforming game, the player creation spawn from basketball to bumpercarts.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Both actually. The pplayers should also be able to shape the world, through their actions. That way nothing may be repetitive( or seem that way) If a players actions effect the events of the game then, other players will be forced to react. And by having so many types of players ( aggressive, passive, heros, bad guys, and those who just want to annoy others), the game would be enjoyable, and thus unpredictale, so fun.So to me the virtual life has to be fun if done correctly, (My way) This way the game doesn't get boring or repetitive, while not neccessarily the story is user generated, some content and unscripted events will be.
Both, you need a world that makes the game itself seem fun. If you put the game in a bland world with nothing but the same thing over and over (LOTRO had this issue with killing boars, jeeezzzz), then you're going to play something else. I don't want Wurm Online as the template for the MMO, but I do like the fact it has a large world, which itself should be a template for the map at the minimum.
Virtual life for sure, it wouldn't be an mmo without it. I think this is exactly where lie the difference between board like and single player rpg games and mmos. Still they have to lower down the usuall chore life is made of, easier travel, speed crafting...
Morrowind belongs in my top 5 best games ive ever played. I play sinds early 90s many many games.
A lot of the chore of life could be dealth with during offline hours, i don't know like crafting. It make no sense to have to watch your toon smelt ore for hours when he could do it offline, same with training, but devs are very short sighted honestly. Same with gold making, i never understood why your toon couldn't have a profession when offline, like bartender, it would make the game a lot more lifely; and make sense. But as said dev don't give a crap about all those, sadely.
Well what you find a chore (f.e. crafting ) I find intresting to play if crafting system is ok and crafted items are at least on par with loot items.
So making it offfline would break game for me tbh. Same with making gold ,etc
With all this it would leave only combat and questing to do. Like in WoW. Well even less than in WoW .
I want to have other things to do apart of fighting , so when I am bored of combat I go crafting , or exploring or socializing or sailing ,etc
So no please no.
Edit: Besides I think there will be offline crafting in SWTOR so you might want to look at this game.