Maybe. But it doesnt change the fact that we've never seen two major mmos release at roughly the same timeframe with two very different pay structures. I find that interesting.
CoH and EQ2 (7 mos)? EQ2 and WoW (15 days)? WoW and GW1 (5 mos)?
Granted EQ2's pricing structure wasn't greatly different from WoW's, but we have seen this situation before--and GW1's pricing structure was unique at the time.
All of those games are still going strong, by the way.
Since we don't know either game's release dates as of today, they could be very close together, or months apart.
My crystal ball is cracked.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You can also look at it as these are two games that are made perfectly to coexist.
SWTOR is story based and designed for a player to come and go at will and simply pick up where they left off with countless hours of story to play through.
GW2 is designed for easy access to instant action in both pve and pvp with little worry about gear gating and exclusion.
Seeing how modern day mmo players now jump mmo ship often and even play multiple games, we could now see a wonderful sci-fi and fantasy balance that offers a complete experience as a whole. Most mmo's today simply cannot keep a players undivided attention by themselves.
I suggest you keep some sense of optimism and an open mind instead of constantly swinging from the ballz of the game you worship that has yet to prove itself. I think it is obvious at this point that both games at the very least offer something that is entertaining, if only for a finite period of time.
I don't understand the original post. If anything GW2 should be really bad news for ToR. It sure took my interest away from ToR, and I am now intending to spend all my time in GW2 instead.
Same here.
I was pumped for ToR when I saw their first official CGI trailer, but as soon as they began releasing gameplay videos, I was immediately turned off.
Then I found GW2...
I hope it doesn't suck. :]
The team at ANet seems very into what they're doing, but that doesn't mean everything. I want to believe that their passion will drive them to make a great product, but look at what happened with WAR. They had super hyped dev videos all over the place and WAR turned out to be a steaming pile anyway.
I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been said. But GW2 does not need to beat any game to "succeed" it just need to be profitable. SWTOR could be 10x more profitable but as long as GW2 is making money... Anet is happy.
Nice part about it is, if you didn't much like any MMO, all you're out is the cost of a box.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Foomerang Maybe. But it doesnt change the fact that we've never seen two major mmos release at roughly the same timeframe with two very different pay structures. I find that interesting.
CoH and EQ2 (7 mos)? EQ2 and WoW (15 days)? WoW and GW1 (5 mos)? Granted EQ2's pricing structure wasn't greatly different from WoW's, but we have seen this situation before--and GW1's pricing structure was unique at the time. All of those games are still going strong, by the way.
Since we don't know either game's release dates as of today, they could be very close together, or months apart. My crystal ball is cracked. Yes the x factor is how close these games launch to each other. The further apart, the better for both companies imho. Also interestingly enough, CoH, EQ2, and WoW all launched with a monthly fee. Guess which two have changed their payment models since then. GW1 was never on the mmo radar for most of its shelf life.
Originally posted by Tamanous You can also look at it as these are two games that are made perfectly to coexist. SWTOR is story based and designed for a player to come and go at will and simply pick up where they left off with countless hours of story to play through. GW2 is designed for easy access to instant action in both pve and pvp with little worry about gear gating and exclusion. Seeing how modern day mmo players now jump mmo ship often and even play multiple games, we could now see a wonderful sci-fi and fantasy balance that offers a complete experience as a whole. Most mmo's today simply cannot keep a players undivided attention by themselves. I suggest you keep some sense of optimism and an open mind instead of constantly swinging from the ballz of the game you worship that has yet to prove itself. I think it is obvious at this point that both games at the very least offer something that is entertaining, if only for a finite period of time.
Actually I could not agree more and would like nothing more than to see that scenario come to pass
Maybe. But it doesnt change the fact that we've never seen two major mmos release at roughly the same timeframe with two very different pay structures. I find that interesting.
CoH and EQ2 (7 mos)? EQ2 and WoW (15 days)? WoW and GW1 (5 mos)?
Granted EQ2's pricing structure wasn't greatly different from WoW's, but we have seen this situation before--and GW1's pricing structure was unique at the time.
All of those games are still going strong, by the way.
Since we don't know either game's release dates as of today, they could be very close together, or months apart.
My crystal ball is cracked.
Yes the x factor is how close these games launch to each other. The further apart, the better for both companies imho. Also interestingly enough, CoH, EQ2, and WoW all launched with a monthly fee. Guess which two have changed their payment models since then. GW1 was never on the mmo radar for most of its shelf life.
That was more a fault of it's game design. Every single person that had tried it or heard about GW1 that I personally knew discounted it because of it's instanced/hybrid format and not because of it's payment structure. Players at the time wanted something like Wow and therefore gravitated to it. Wow at the time was the best example of what was wanted in a much more open market.
GW2 is an entirely different beast now and we will have to see what sort of player is drawn to it. The improved PvE aspect to it is what will draw the larger player base ... not pvp mechanics (although the syngery between the two will ultimately make or break the game). Pvp games will never be more than a niche market. A very important market, but always the smaller one.
I think a MAJOR factor people always tend to leave out is that, GW2 being a B2P game means you can buy it have fun and still sub to another MMO. I know several people who plan to do just that. No real reason not to IMO
This whole idea that you can only play one game at a time is just silly unless it is really that important to you to race to end level and get to "end game" Yes I realize GW2 is a different beast than GW1 was, but it is still a more casual fare aimed at a casual audience than the meta gaming MMO's brought by other companies.
In the end I really see no real reason why the two games cannot coexist together just fine, its fan boys of one game or the other that keep bringing these ridiculous arguments about it has to be one or the other.
Bang on the nail !!
I will give AOC unchained as an example there curent F2P system is a joke the only real way to play is to sub as it's so limited if u wish to progress it's like an extended Tortage trial, but they then they take all the sweeties out of the bowl and leave it empty until u wanna fill it with cash shop points which in the long run is way more exspensive than premium although u don't buy the game so no financial outlay so most will go premium is they have any sense !!
So regarding GW2 if AOC is my main game then i will buy GW2 as well and as stated they could co-exist qute happily as other MO's out there as GW2 is paid for and all the goodies i get from premium subs,are availble in GW2 with no stupid restraints it's a win win situation.
TORs main focus group is Bioware fans. GW2s main focus is Arenanet fans. Not the same people.
If both games do well they will also both take a big chunk each of the general MMO players, there are enough players to make both those games to become huge with several million players each.
While of course both companies wants the largest piece of the cake I don't see any really parasitic releationship between them, except maybe on this forum where some people that love one game or the the other seems to automatically hate the other game.
One of the game will do better than the other, maybe even become the next big game but ones success does not neccesarily means that the other game fails. If both games are great then they will both do fine, if one suck then it will go badly and if both sucks neither will do fine.
Biowares really big advantage here is that a lot of the Bioware fans don't even play MMOs yet but they will play this one because they are Bioware fans, that is what started out Wow (well, Blizzard fans that time).
My personal guess is that one of the games will do pretty fine and one will become huge, I am not 100% sure which one that will be the big one yet, even though I think GW2 will be more popular among the people who hang out at this forum. Of course there are surprisingly few Wow players here so that doesn't mean much.
Where are all of these endless slippery slopes coming from?
Lest we forget: Two different genres, two different target audiences.
The audience can even over lap, the only thing they compete for is time then, I will be playing GW 2 on the side, but my main mmo will be SWToR or even TSW if SWToR some how doesnt hook me.
Its mostly the GW 2 fans who want to set their game up against the SW:ToRs and WoWs of this world when its clearly not designed to compete with them, it is odd to me, its like if they turn every conversation into a GW 2 one it automatically makes GW 2 just as big of a presence in the mmo world.
That was more a fault of it's game design. Every single person that had tried it or heard about GW1 that I personally knew discounted it because of it's instanced/hybrid format and not because of it's payment structure. Players at the time wanted something like Wow and therefore gravitated to it. Wow at the time was the best example of what was wanted in a much more open market.
I'd actually considered it more a fault of its advertising. On GW's opening day, the cries of WoW players looking for another loot-based, PVE-based EQ clone were loud and strident indeed, because most of them failed to read the box they bought, failed to understand what the game was about.
But I also remember their announcement of the five millionth box sold. Some players may have waved their hands dismisally and pooh-poohed GW1 ("never on the MMO radar"), but if so they simply were not paying attention to the market. Not just like WoW = beneath notice?
Early in the F2P era there was a pretty strong prejudice that no game without a sub fee could possibly not-suck--pricing structure may have contributed as well.
But we all know how big a shadow the Behemoth cast on the rest of the market--virtually every game that Was Not WoW was declared legally dead.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Biowares really big advantage here is that a lot of the Bioware fans don't even play MMOs yet but they will play this one because they are Bioware fans, that is what started out Wow (well, Blizzard fans that time).
I wish good luck to both games.
This is very true. I have a friend who simply cannot play mmo's and there are many like him. He is not only poor at twitch gaming (or faster action mmo's at least) but also only enjoys the story angle to traditional rpg's. He is a soft socializer and not one to engage in raid style meetings. He would rather sit back and chat for hours discussing story and life. Competition is not in his blood.
Because of this he is very much looking forward to the Bioware TOR sequel and that is exactly how he looks at it. Bioware draws from an entirely different crowd. It is polar opposite to Arenanet's crowd. These two games draw players from different extremes and meet in the middle. It seems to be all te people already in the middle who are doing the worrying.
Honestly this is all very interesting and I await their release with great interest.
You could have made this EXACT same argument for GW1 and WoW. See how that turned out? Both games were able to thrive alongside each other...
GW would beat Warcraft a long way if it wasnt for Blizzard or Warcraft. GW felt 1234813281328312 times more polished than vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had so much flaws i always thought of instant quiting but my friends QQed to see me play with them. I mean come on, one buff/cd in pvp costs half of the mana bar? Thats one of the thousands of flaws it had for months. The funny thing is, that everyone said that GW sucked. GW which had all different comboes viable to everything while WoW had many specs not viable for anything. Warcraft fans ftw.
As SWTOR: I really love SW (wont play it though my PC kinda sucks) and the more hyped the more avarage the game will be. For you SW fans, i hope that the game will turn out to be good with more roles than just you DPS, you TANK, you HEAL. I know people that havent played games such as GW have a clue what i mean (And some GW leets to.)
As ive seen, most players QQ quiting says they gonna play X game till GW2 comes out. I really hope they wont start GW2 and ruin everything. The thing i really hate with new MMOs are if the playerbase are just QQers that instant quit groups cause of some minor flaw. Thanks god just an minority got that. A good way would be to give us GW2 servers for 17+. That idea never comes thru but would save us adults really much ragetimes.
Once again: Hope the SWTOR game turns out to be good. Or better- hope the devs cares. A game that is as flawed as vanilla WoW can be fixed within a week i guess if the devs just cares about the people. As for SW fans, this is a must.
If ToR does really well, GW2 could implode. Even if both games have roughly the same amount of box sales, I could see this happening. My reasoning behind this is NCSoft is not going to stand idly by and watch EA rake in triple the profits with the same amount of box sales month after month.
I would not be surprised to see NCSoft start pushing HEAVY rmt campaigns or even a "premium" subscription.
The only way Anet will be able to keep GW2 truly b2p is if it blows ToR out of the water in box sales. If that happens I could see the pendulum swinging the other way and ToR either lowering its monthly fee or getting rid of it altogether and adopting a cash shop.
The backlash of fans from either of these scenarios happening is going to be pretty significant.
So from a certain point of view, one game's success is the other game's failure. Whoever flinches first is going to set the stage for a chain reaction. Sort of like a game of chicken. 2012 is going to be an interesting year for the MMO from a business perspective.
You've done bumped your head or something.
Your whole post was proven wrong many years ago. GW1 thrived and retained it's buy to play business model even with WoW out there. I mean.... if they were going to do away with the buy to play model, they would have done so by now.
WoW came out in 2004
GW came out in 2005
It's now 2011 and NCsoft and Anet felt they made enough money to justify utilizing the same business model again.
Why would any logical or rational individual believe that after 6 years of proving itself profitable that this business model would be cast aside?
The Buy to play business model is the Ace in the hole. It's what entices non MMO's, Free to players and MMO players to hop over that fence. It puts GW2 in a situation where it has less to prove. It puts GW2 in a position where players are more forgiving of faults like bugs, lack of content and etc.
GW2 is something people will be playing as a main and a side MMO. It's an MMO that the whole family can go pick up without it adding a $60+ monthly bill. It's something parrents are far more likely to go and pickup as a birthday or chistmas present because it has no monthly fee.
Non MMO gamers are more likely to pick this game up and give it a go because it costs only as much as any single player game would. Sure you have the OPTION of buying the expansions later if you want.... but you don't have to.
GW2 has nothing to fear but GW2. If anything the success of GW2 may have an impact on TOR if it doesn't outshine GW2 by a great deal. If a game with a business model like GW2s turns out to be better or at least on par with a game with a business model like TOR guess what happens. People begin to question the business model and find it hard justifying the extra money.
Its like buying an LG optimus. You can go with the LG Optimus S from sprint . You pay a lot more monthly than you would just picking up the LG Optimus V from Virgin mobile. Same phone, same network, fraction of the price monthly and no 2 year contract lol.
It isn't GW2 that has to prove itself worthy. It will be fine even if it isn't everything it promises to be. TOR is the one in the hot seat. It's going to have to shine to justify the cost.
It doesn't matter what view you look at this from, you're simply wrong and as stated above, you were proven wrong about 6 years ago and every day since.
It's not a game of chicken, it's more like a game of chicken vs. train. TOR's best course of action is to just stay off the tracks and worry about itself lol. They won't be having any effect on GW2.
If ToR does really well, GW2 could implode. Even if both games have roughly the same amount of box sales, I could see this happening. My reasoning behind this is NCSoft is not going to stand idly by and watch EA rake in triple the profits with the same amount of box sales month after month.
I would not be surprised to see NCSoft start pushing HEAVY rmt campaigns or even a "premium" subscription.
The only way Anet will be able to keep GW2 truly b2p is if it blows ToR out of the water in box sales. If that happens I could see the pendulum swinging the other way and ToR either lowering its monthly fee or getting rid of it altogether and adopting a cash shop.
The backlash of fans from either of these scenarios happening is going to be pretty significant.
So from a certain point of view, one game's success is the other game's failure. Whoever flinches first is going to set the stage for a chain reaction. Sort of like a game of chicken. 2012 is going to be an interesting year for the MMO from a business perspective.
You've done bumped your head or something.
Your whole post was proven wrong many years ago. GW1 thrived and retained it's buy to play business model even with WoW out there. I mean.... if they were going to do away with the buy to play model, they would have done so by now.
WoW came out in 2004
GW came out in 2005
It's now 2011 and NCsoft and Anet felt they made enough money to justify utilizing the same business model again.
Why would any logical or rational individual believe that after 6 years of proving itself profitable that this business model would be cast aside?
The Buy to play business model is the Ace in the whole. It's what entices non MMO's, Free to players and MMO's to hop over that fence. It puts GW2 in a situation where it has less to prove. It puts GW2 in a position where players are more forgiving of faults like bugs, lack of content and etc.
GW2 is something people will be playing as a main and a side MMO. It's an MMO that the whole family can go pick up without it adding a $60+ monthly bill. It's something parrents are far more likely to go and pickup as a birthday or chistmas present because it has no monthly fee.
Non MMO gamers are more likely to pick this game up and give it a go because it costs only as much as any single player game would. Sure you have the OPTION of buying the expansions later if you want.... but you don't have to.
GW2 has nothing to fear but GW2. If anything the success of GW2 may have an impact on TOR if it doesn't outshine GW2 by a great deal. If a game with a business model like GW2s turns out to be better or at least on par with a game with a business model like TOR guess what happens. People begin to question the business model and find it hard justifying the extra money.
Its like buying an LG optimus. You can go with the LG Optimus S from sprint . You pay a lot more monthly than you would just picking up the LG Optimus V from Virgin mobile. Same phone, same network, fraction of the price monthly and no 2 year contract lol.
It isn't GW2 that has to prove itself worthy. It will be fine even if it isn't everything it promises to be. TOR is the one in the hot seat. It's going to have to shine to justify the cost.
It doesn't matter what view you look at this from, your simply wrong and as stated above, you were proven wrong about 6 years ago and every day since.
It's not a game of chicken, it's more like a game of chicken vs. train. TOR's best course of action is to just stay off the tracks and worry about itself lol. They won't be having any effect on GW2.
Well stated. QFT and all that stuff. Yeah, THIS ^^^^^, etc.
GrayGhost got the real business perspective and here is something to chew on: I am a themepark hater and will be getting GW2 because of the Buy to Play model. To me a themepark is worth an intial purchase and not worth a monthly subscription (Also the coop free for all play sounds interesting enough).
GW2 may get sales just from the buy to play model alone because peope will say "well at least I don't have to subscribe to play it."
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
GrayGhost got the real business perspective and here is something to chew on: I am a themepark hater and will be getting GW2 because of the Buy to Play model. To me a themepark is worth an intial purchase and not worth a monthly subscription (Also the coop free for all play sounds interesting enough).
GW2 may get sales just from the buy to play model alone because peope will say "well at least I don't have to subscribe to play it."
Yep.
And another thing to think about is that ONE box purchase around time of release ($60) is worth a single player staying subscribed for FIVE months (free month + $15*4).
How long does the average player stay subscribed to an MMORPG? I know I usually don't stay subscribed for more than 3 months (and I'm "hardcore" enough to post on this forum!). So taking out the three months, that's only $30 in sub fees.
Bioware draws from an entirely different crowd. It is polar opposite to Arenanet's crowd. These two games draw players from different extremes and meet in the middle.
Not sure how: both are touting heavily story-based games that allow an individual to make an impact on the world through their in-game interactions and choices. Seems like a pretty heavy overlap to me.
Maybe you could explain what extreme Bioware is drawing from that ArenaNet isn't, and vice-versa?
Bioware draws from an entirely different crowd. It is polar opposite to Arenanet's crowd. These two games draw players from different extremes and meet in the middle.
Not sure how: both are touting heavily story-based games that allow an individual to make an impact on the world through their in-game interactions and choices. Seems like a pretty heavy overlap to me.
Maybe you could explain what extreme Bioware is drawing from that ArenaNet isn't, and vice-versa?
Well, Arenanet is drawing from the crowd of people who are fascinated by fantasy concepts like bizarre inhuman races, swords made out of energy, magical healing powers, shooting lightning out of hands, simplistic good vs. evil battles, powerful hero-warriors, mysticism, and stuff like that.
I fear the ToR will kill GW2 off too. I don't think it's gonna push Anet to offer P2P premium subs though, not ever. If Anet gets as many sales out the gate as ToR then GW2 is a huge sucess to them, because it cost a minor fraction of the cost of ToR to make. Plus they're store for GW and GW2 obviously makes them a healthy profit after initial release sales.
I *think* ToR could kill off GW2 by taking the money people were gonna save to put down on GW2 and investing it in monthly subs, and the EA online store or ToR store. I mean that monthly sub has to be buying players something. I just hope it's not buying them a serious addiction.
So TOR is Al Gore and GW2 is Ralph Nader, got it. Good thread.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I fear the ToR will kill GW2 off too. I don't think it's gonna push Anet to offer P2P premium subs though, not ever. If Anet gets as many sales out the gate as ToR then GW2 is a huge sucess to them, because it cost a minor fraction of the cost of ToR to make. Plus they're store for GW and GW2 obviously makes them a healthy profit after initial release sales.
I *think* ToR could kill off GW2 by taking the money people were gonna save to put down on GW2 and investing it in monthly subs, and the EA online store or ToR store. I mean that monthly sub has to be buying players something. I just hope it's not buying them a serious addiction.
I highly suggest you read GrayGhost's post.
He does a good job of explaining precisely how wrong this viewpoint is. To simplify it; if your statement above was at all true, then WoW would've killed GW1 a long time ago.
GW2 is it's own beast, and isn't really competing with TOR, reglardless of how much QQing you see here on the forums. It's also not entirely different of a fanbase than TOR is. TOR gets the diehard Bioware fans, but GW2 doesn't preven people from playing both, and once you get passed the hardcore fanbase (which isn't the majority), you'll find that both games appeal to similar players. The biggest 'advantage' TOR has is the IP.
I fear the ToR will kill GW2 off too. I don't think it's gonna push Anet to offer P2P premium subs though, not ever. If Anet gets as many sales out the gate as ToR then GW2 is a huge sucess to them, because it cost a minor fraction of the cost of ToR to make. Plus they're store for GW and GW2 obviously makes them a healthy profit after initial release sales.
I *think* ToR could kill off GW2 by taking the money people were gonna save to put down on GW2 and investing it in monthly subs, and the EA online store or ToR store. I mean that monthly sub has to be buying players something. I just hope it's not buying them a serious addiction.
I highly suggest you read GrayGhost's post.
He does a good job of explaining precisely how wrong this viewpoint is. To simplify it; if your statement above was at all true, then WoW would've killed GW1 a long time ago.
GW2 is it's own beast, and isn't really competing with TOR, reglardless of how much QQing you see here on the forums. It's also not entirely different of a fanbase than TOR is. TOR gets the diehard Bioware fans, but GW2 doesn't preven people from playing both, and once you get passed the hardcore fanbase (which isn't the majority), you'll find that both games appeal to similar players. The biggest 'advantage' TOR has is the IP.
*blink* *blink* *blink* WTF are you talking about. As far as activision/blizzard and the mass majority of mmo players (read millions) are concerned GW1 is a console game, with little to no online components. If the Anet store isn't making money then why spend money to offer it? I'm confused if you read what I really wrote. Where is GG's post? I'll look for it.
*edit*
GG is smoking something crazy saying GW2 is the train, especially after this last weekend. If anything the over 1 million presale $150 CE ToR proved that it's got a lot of potential to be an 800 Gorilla Cat (read 800 lbs beast with 9 lives). Lol, that's like saying WoW had better watch out for the GW1 community six years in the past cause pay to play model failed when WoW released and hasn't been insainly sucessful since. That right there isn't sensible thinking. P2P is a sucessful model, it all depends on what it costs to keep the game up and running with content updates and blah blah blah.
So yeah BTW if you didn't notice SWToR has a store too. So it's not just running the P2P model, it's going like WoW which BTW also has a hugely sucessful store. I even wonder if it's more financially viable then the Anet store. Cause man people love them some $20 mounts and $10 pets, I mean millions of people every month. Plus those same people P2P.
Comments
CoH and EQ2 (7 mos)? EQ2 and WoW (15 days)? WoW and GW1 (5 mos)?
Granted EQ2's pricing structure wasn't greatly different from WoW's, but we have seen this situation before--and GW1's pricing structure was unique at the time.
All of those games are still going strong, by the way.
Since we don't know either game's release dates as of today, they could be very close together, or months apart.
My crystal ball is cracked.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You can also look at it as these are two games that are made perfectly to coexist.
SWTOR is story based and designed for a player to come and go at will and simply pick up where they left off with countless hours of story to play through.
GW2 is designed for easy access to instant action in both pve and pvp with little worry about gear gating and exclusion.
Seeing how modern day mmo players now jump mmo ship often and even play multiple games, we could now see a wonderful sci-fi and fantasy balance that offers a complete experience as a whole. Most mmo's today simply cannot keep a players undivided attention by themselves.
I suggest you keep some sense of optimism and an open mind instead of constantly swinging from the ballz of the game you worship that has yet to prove itself. I think it is obvious at this point that both games at the very least offer something that is entertaining, if only for a finite period of time.
You stay sassy!
Same here.
I was pumped for ToR when I saw their first official CGI trailer, but as soon as they began releasing gameplay videos, I was immediately turned off.
Then I found GW2...
I hope it doesn't suck. :]
The team at ANet seems very into what they're doing, but that doesn't mean everything. I want to believe that their passion will drive them to make a great product, but look at what happened with WAR. They had super hyped dev videos all over the place and WAR turned out to be a steaming pile anyway.
Here's to hoping, mates.
I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been said. But GW2 does not need to beat any game to "succeed" it just need to be profitable. SWTOR could be 10x more profitable but as long as GW2 is making money... Anet is happy.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Nice part about it is, if you didn't much like any MMO, all you're out is the cost of a box.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Granted EQ2's pricing structure wasn't greatly different from WoW's, but we have seen this situation before--and GW1's pricing structure was unique at the time.
All of those games are still going strong, by the way.
Since we don't know either game's release dates as of today, they could be very close together, or months apart.
My crystal ball is cracked.
Yes the x factor is how close these games launch to each other. The further apart, the better for both companies imho. Also interestingly enough, CoH, EQ2, and WoW all launched with a monthly fee. Guess which two have changed their payment models since then. GW1 was never on the mmo radar for most of its shelf life.
Actually I could not agree more and would like nothing more than to see that scenario come to pass
That was more a fault of it's game design. Every single person that had tried it or heard about GW1 that I personally knew discounted it because of it's instanced/hybrid format and not because of it's payment structure. Players at the time wanted something like Wow and therefore gravitated to it. Wow at the time was the best example of what was wanted in a much more open market.
GW2 is an entirely different beast now and we will have to see what sort of player is drawn to it. The improved PvE aspect to it is what will draw the larger player base ... not pvp mechanics (although the syngery between the two will ultimately make or break the game). Pvp games will never be more than a niche market. A very important market, but always the smaller one.
You stay sassy!
Bang on the nail !!
I will give AOC unchained as an example there curent F2P system is a joke the only real way to play is to sub as it's so limited if u wish to progress it's like an extended Tortage trial, but they then they take all the sweeties out of the bowl and leave it empty until u wanna fill it with cash shop points which in the long run is way more exspensive than premium although u don't buy the game so no financial outlay so most will go premium is they have any sense !!
So regarding GW2 if AOC is my main game then i will buy GW2 as well and as stated they could co-exist qute happily as other MO's out there as GW2 is paid for and all the goodies i get from premium subs,are availble in GW2 with no stupid restraints it's a win win situation.
TORs main focus group is Bioware fans. GW2s main focus is Arenanet fans. Not the same people.
If both games do well they will also both take a big chunk each of the general MMO players, there are enough players to make both those games to become huge with several million players each.
While of course both companies wants the largest piece of the cake I don't see any really parasitic releationship between them, except maybe on this forum where some people that love one game or the the other seems to automatically hate the other game.
One of the game will do better than the other, maybe even become the next big game but ones success does not neccesarily means that the other game fails. If both games are great then they will both do fine, if one suck then it will go badly and if both sucks neither will do fine.
Biowares really big advantage here is that a lot of the Bioware fans don't even play MMOs yet but they will play this one because they are Bioware fans, that is what started out Wow (well, Blizzard fans that time).
My personal guess is that one of the games will do pretty fine and one will become huge, I am not 100% sure which one that will be the big one yet, even though I think GW2 will be more popular among the people who hang out at this forum. Of course there are surprisingly few Wow players here so that doesn't mean much.
I wish good luck to both games.
The audience can even over lap, the only thing they compete for is time then, I will be playing GW 2 on the side, but my main mmo will be SWToR or even TSW if SWToR some how doesnt hook me.
Its mostly the GW 2 fans who want to set their game up against the SW:ToRs and WoWs of this world when its clearly not designed to compete with them, it is odd to me, its like if they turn every conversation into a GW 2 one it automatically makes GW 2 just as big of a presence in the mmo world.
I'd actually considered it more a fault of its advertising. On GW's opening day, the cries of WoW players looking for another loot-based, PVE-based EQ clone were loud and strident indeed, because most of them failed to read the box they bought, failed to understand what the game was about.
But I also remember their announcement of the five millionth box sold. Some players may have waved their hands dismisally and pooh-poohed GW1 ("never on the MMO radar"), but if so they simply were not paying attention to the market. Not just like WoW = beneath notice?
Early in the F2P era there was a pretty strong prejudice that no game without a sub fee could possibly not-suck--pricing structure may have contributed as well.
But we all know how big a shadow the Behemoth cast on the rest of the market--virtually every game that Was Not WoW was declared legally dead.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
This is very true. I have a friend who simply cannot play mmo's and there are many like him. He is not only poor at twitch gaming (or faster action mmo's at least) but also only enjoys the story angle to traditional rpg's. He is a soft socializer and not one to engage in raid style meetings. He would rather sit back and chat for hours discussing story and life. Competition is not in his blood.
Because of this he is very much looking forward to the Bioware TOR sequel and that is exactly how he looks at it. Bioware draws from an entirely different crowd. It is polar opposite to Arenanet's crowd. These two games draw players from different extremes and meet in the middle. It seems to be all te people already in the middle who are doing the worrying.
Honestly this is all very interesting and I await their release with great interest.
You stay sassy!
GW would beat Warcraft a long way if it wasnt for Blizzard or Warcraft. GW felt 1234813281328312 times more polished than vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had so much flaws i always thought of instant quiting but my friends QQed to see me play with them. I mean come on, one buff/cd in pvp costs half of the mana bar? Thats one of the thousands of flaws it had for months. The funny thing is, that everyone said that GW sucked. GW which had all different comboes viable to everything while WoW had many specs not viable for anything. Warcraft fans ftw.
As SWTOR: I really love SW (wont play it though my PC kinda sucks) and the more hyped the more avarage the game will be. For you SW fans, i hope that the game will turn out to be good with more roles than just you DPS, you TANK, you HEAL. I know people that havent played games such as GW have a clue what i mean
(And some GW leets to.)
As ive seen, most players QQ quiting says they gonna play X game till GW2 comes out. I really hope they wont start GW2 and ruin everything. The thing i really hate with new MMOs are if the playerbase are just QQers that instant quit groups cause of some minor flaw. Thanks god just an minority got that. A good way would be to give us GW2 servers for 17+. That idea never comes thru but would save us adults really much ragetimes.
Once again: Hope the SWTOR game turns out to be good. Or better- hope the devs cares. A game that is as flawed as vanilla WoW can be fixed within a week i guess if the devs just cares about the people. As for SW fans, this is a must.
Yawn
You've done bumped your head or something.
Your whole post was proven wrong many years ago. GW1 thrived and retained it's buy to play business model even with WoW out there. I mean.... if they were going to do away with the buy to play model, they would have done so by now.
WoW came out in 2004
GW came out in 2005
It's now 2011 and NCsoft and Anet felt they made enough money to justify utilizing the same business model again.
Why would any logical or rational individual believe that after 6 years of proving itself profitable that this business model would be cast aside?
The Buy to play business model is the Ace in the hole. It's what entices non MMO's, Free to players and MMO players to hop over that fence. It puts GW2 in a situation where it has less to prove. It puts GW2 in a position where players are more forgiving of faults like bugs, lack of content and etc.
GW2 is something people will be playing as a main and a side MMO. It's an MMO that the whole family can go pick up without it adding a $60+ monthly bill. It's something parrents are far more likely to go and pickup as a birthday or chistmas present because it has no monthly fee.
Non MMO gamers are more likely to pick this game up and give it a go because it costs only as much as any single player game would. Sure you have the OPTION of buying the expansions later if you want.... but you don't have to.
GW2 has nothing to fear but GW2. If anything the success of GW2 may have an impact on TOR if it doesn't outshine GW2 by a great deal. If a game with a business model like GW2s turns out to be better or at least on par with a game with a business model like TOR guess what happens. People begin to question the business model and find it hard justifying the extra money.
Its like buying an LG optimus. You can go with the LG Optimus S from sprint . You pay a lot more monthly than you would just picking up the LG Optimus V from Virgin mobile. Same phone, same network, fraction of the price monthly and no 2 year contract lol.
It isn't GW2 that has to prove itself worthy. It will be fine even if it isn't everything it promises to be. TOR is the one in the hot seat. It's going to have to shine to justify the cost.
It doesn't matter what view you look at this from, you're simply wrong and as stated above, you were proven wrong about 6 years ago and every day since.
It's not a game of chicken, it's more like a game of chicken vs. train. TOR's best course of action is to just stay off the tracks and worry about itself lol. They won't be having any effect on GW2.
Well stated. QFT and all that stuff. Yeah, THIS ^^^^^, etc.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Seriously?
...
GrayGhost got the real business perspective and here is something to chew on: I am a themepark hater and will be getting GW2 because of the Buy to Play model. To me a themepark is worth an intial purchase and not worth a monthly subscription (Also the coop free for all play sounds interesting enough).
GW2 may get sales just from the buy to play model alone because peope will say "well at least I don't have to subscribe to play it."
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Yep.
And another thing to think about is that ONE box purchase around time of release ($60) is worth a single player staying subscribed for FIVE months (free month + $15*4).
How long does the average player stay subscribed to an MMORPG? I know I usually don't stay subscribed for more than 3 months (and I'm "hardcore" enough to post on this forum!). So taking out the three months, that's only $30 in sub fees.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Not sure how: both are touting heavily story-based games that allow an individual to make an impact on the world through their in-game interactions and choices. Seems like a pretty heavy overlap to me.
Maybe you could explain what extreme Bioware is drawing from that ArenaNet isn't, and vice-versa?
Well, Arenanet is drawing from the crowd of people who are fascinated by fantasy concepts like bizarre inhuman races, swords made out of energy, magical healing powers, shooting lightning out of hands, simplistic good vs. evil battles, powerful hero-warriors, mysticism, and stuff like that.
While Bioware is obviously not.
In response to the original post.
I fear the ToR will kill GW2 off too. I don't think it's gonna push Anet to offer P2P premium subs though, not ever. If Anet gets as many sales out the gate as ToR then GW2 is a huge sucess to them, because it cost a minor fraction of the cost of ToR to make. Plus they're store for GW and GW2 obviously makes them a healthy profit after initial release sales.
I *think* ToR could kill off GW2 by taking the money people were gonna save to put down on GW2 and investing it in monthly subs, and the EA online store or ToR store. I mean that monthly sub has to be buying players something. I just hope it's not buying them a serious addiction.
Sic Luceat Lux
So TOR is Al Gore and GW2 is Ralph Nader, got it. Good thread.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I highly suggest you read GrayGhost's post.
He does a good job of explaining precisely how wrong this viewpoint is. To simplify it; if your statement above was at all true, then WoW would've killed GW1 a long time ago.
GW2 is it's own beast, and isn't really competing with TOR, reglardless of how much QQing you see here on the forums. It's also not entirely different of a fanbase than TOR is. TOR gets the diehard Bioware fans, but GW2 doesn't preven people from playing both, and once you get passed the hardcore fanbase (which isn't the majority), you'll find that both games appeal to similar players. The biggest 'advantage' TOR has is the IP.
*blink* *blink* *blink* WTF are you talking about. As far as activision/blizzard and the mass majority of mmo players (read millions) are concerned GW1 is a console game, with little to no online components. If the Anet store isn't making money then why spend money to offer it? I'm confused if you read what I really wrote. Where is GG's post? I'll look for it.
*edit*
GG is smoking something crazy saying GW2 is the train, especially after this last weekend. If anything the over 1 million presale $150 CE ToR proved that it's got a lot of potential to be an 800 Gorilla Cat (read 800 lbs beast with 9 lives). Lol, that's like saying WoW had better watch out for the GW1 community six years in the past cause pay to play model failed when WoW released and hasn't been insainly sucessful since. That right there isn't sensible thinking. P2P is a sucessful model, it all depends on what it costs to keep the game up and running with content updates and blah blah blah.
So yeah BTW if you didn't notice SWToR has a store too. So it's not just running the P2P model, it's going like WoW which BTW also has a hugely sucessful store. I even wonder if it's more financially viable then the Anet store. Cause man people love them some $20 mounts and $10 pets, I mean millions of people every month. Plus those same people P2P.
So yeah....
Sic Luceat Lux