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200 hours of gameplay per class?
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GW2 will be released in 2012, not late 2012, big difference.
Ah yes, how could I forget. My bad
Hmm. Ok, despite the banner of wisdom I still have to make this comment.
Hype is just hype, it varies from site to site and has no quantifiable measure to it, at least not in the sense of '10 to 1' kind of comments. Besides that, we were talking about quests specifically and not about the game as a whole, which again makes a difference in the discussion.
And lastly, I'm not really in the mood for yet another e-peenish 'the game I like is bigger and more liked than the game you like, na na na na' kind of discussion, especially since I'm interested in both those games, so I'm going to leave it at this and step out of this discussion, I can already see the rehash of arguments and downward spiral that it'd result in if I'd continue trying to insert any voice of reason or balance into the discussion.
No offense meant to you, though, we all have our own likings and preferences. Have a nice day further
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I used to think the same thing until I found myself clearing Silverwood for the thousandth time. And yes, while RIFT isn't the same thing the GW2 is going to be it dawned on me that regardless of the random natuer of the encounter, if you find yourself doing it again, and again, and again.........you get the picture.
Take a town or a piece of land? Great. take it for the upteenth time? It becomes a nuisance.
The DE will make the first encounters interesting enough. Even the first hundred or so times. A Month later they probably won't be so interesting. That's not to say they aren't an improvement over the "go to x spawn point and kill y" we are all so familiar with. I'm suggesting that the core issue is we have to face up to the fact that repetition (even random/dynamic events) becomes old hat.
There just may be no way around it.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
Meh, You've just demonstrated your utter lack of knowledges about GW 2 DEs , and I don't think I cbf to explain them to you. Here's the key words : "Chains" ,"Trees". GW2 DEs are nothing like RIFT "DE".
For the most part, I agree with you. However, there are issues with that approach. SWTOR's success seems to hinge on the quality of its storylines, rather than the strength of its gameplay and that seems risky when it comes to long-term success. In addition, players who are genuinely looking for something different from WoW and low on grind won't be satisfied and I do think there's a lot of missed potential in Bioware's product. I think they looked at KOTOR and thought 'how do we make this an MMORPG', rather than 'how do we make an awesome MMORPG'.
I'm about 200 hours away from hitting 3,000 hours on one MMO.
"Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right. This very place is neutral ground! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!"
actually the first time the 200 hours was mentioned, it was by a bioware austin member back in '09. since then, bioware has tried to stay away from a number mainly because they know it won't be the same for everyone
http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/star-wars-the-old-republic/video/6212670/crosshairs-interview-bioware-austin-on-star-wars-the-old-republic
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6297786#post6297786
Hey Folks,
Glad to clarify. Please bear with me, though, as it can be hard when we're talking about story and story length. So let's start with a few rules for how we tend to talk about it at Bioware:
First: the whole critical path of the game is the length. The walking, the combat, the travel on your ship, world quests, everything you'd have to do to come out the other end the right level. When we say the story of Chapter 1 is X long we do not mean if you somehow took all the conversations and ran them together. Sneaking through the Death Star and shooting stormtroopers was just as much of Luke's story as talking about going and saving the princess. So all the content you're expected to do goes in there. What doesn't go in? Warzones, crafting, socializing, auction house, space game, etc (yes, you could skip world quests and do Warzone or space game quests or Heroics for XP instead but swaps like that tend to more or less even out). Anything not required to level up is outside the estimate.
Second: Your mileage may vary. When we talk about the length of the game at all, we keep it vague for the important reason that people burn through content at different rates. The numbers we're using today are based on best case estimates from hundreds of people playing through Chapter 1. Some people were faster, some people were much, much, much slower as they apparently not just stopped to smell the flowers but had their CCs pick some, studied them, made adrenals out of them and then decided to sit by the roadside and consider what they'd done.
Third: This may change somewhat before ship. Difficulty has been going up in the mid and late leveling game to create real, RPG-style combat challenges. This makes the game longer. Death penalties have been going down. This makes the game shorter. But we have a general idea where we want it to end up and I think it's safe now to make some broad statements.
Okay, with all that out of the way, let me clarify. I was speaking of the a single average first time playthrough of a single class's Chapter 1 being more than twice the length of a single average first time playthrough of the entirety of the original Knights of the Old Republic. Chapter 2 and 3 are each somewhat shorter than Chapter 1 (which are extended by the Origin and Capitol worlds experience) but still pretty darn big.
If we are talking about playthroughs of all the classes we're well into four digit hours but even one class is in the plural hundreds. Anything more specific is going to get me into trouble and honestly will just make me look silly when one guild makes it their all encompassing mission to beat the leveling game in a single marathon session then Photoshop their completion time onto a shocked looking picture of my face and spread it all over the interwebs.
I don't think it's just the quality of its storylines that their success depends on. There are other factors as well that are ignored by a lot of people, namely the quality level and polish that BW generally puts into their products, the amount of content that from where I'm looking at it will dwarf the amount of content that other MMO's have and the size of its world ingame that will be many times the size of Rift's world and even be a lot larger than WoW and LotrO were at their launch.
Amount and variety in content is I think often underestimated as a relevant item by many people, but I think that it's the lack of enough content or too little content that's been gone through too fast is a core issue why people complain about MMO's like CO and DCUO and why many people leave Rift even if they like it as a game.
As for if that all is enough, to have all the MMO features you expect from an AAA themepark MMORPG plus the things I mentioned above?
Well, that remains to be seen of course, and it's a question I'm very interested in as well to see answered.
We've learnt from Rift's launch that quality and polish indeed do matter in the initial perception and after launch period of an MMORPG but that it can only bring you so far, and we've learnt that even dynamic systems can lose their charm and magic if we've seen them enough.
Now let's see with SWTOR how an AAA themepark MMO that has all that polish and big IP holds up, with a humongous amount of leveling content and large worlds to explore, see how the MMO player base and newcomers respond to that in the short and long term.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Because you only have to pay one sub between both games, people can have their cake and eat it too. No need to choose one or the other.
So to recap, for $15 U.S. a month, you can have 200 hours per toon in SWTOR and all the dynamic content a player could want in GW2; the best of both worlds.
Why is that a point you're even bringing up? It's pretty irrelevant given the price and amount of overall content.
"TO MICHAEL!"
There are around 1,800 dynamic events in GW2 at last count and more are constantly being added. Some are part of a long chain such as the often-highlighted Shatterer boss, whereas others are simply helping a farmer clear his fields of bunnies. These events can affect one another too. Since all events reward karma and gold, rather than specific items, players aren't required to partake in any event they don't find engaging for a chance at some epic loot and since there's a sidekicking system in place, high-level players can go back and find a decent challenge in any part of the world, at any time.
As Snark pointed out (with some hostility, and I'm sorry you have to put up with that), most dynamic events are part of chains and trees, rather than a sudden, random event. They're built into the world in a way which is organic, to make the world feel alive and that seems like it'll really help participating players feel involved in the world.
Oh, that was an oversight on my part. Bad bugs and gliches can destroy games and I don't think that Bioware will have much of an issue on that front. I'm a little concerned about balance though, expecially since it's a trinity game with a low party size.
On the other hand, SWTOR doesn't look like it's got that much content to me. A lot of it's the same basic gameplay with little variation on the traditional quest system. In addition, there's the ever-present MMO issue of low-level areas being left to rot once players have 'outgrown' them, which cuts high-level players out of content they might have enjoyed revisiting. I do think that it'll have enough content to sustain its playerbase for some time (more than Rift, DCUO etc.) and I have absolutely no doubt it'll have a fantastic launch but once you've played through the story, I think much of the game's appeal will be gone. What's next?
"Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right. This very place is neutral ground! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!"
This is where I took my understanding of the DE concept that's going to be used in GW2:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
At the end of the day what are you still doing? Kill x of Y.
You can influence the world but ultimately you can never truly change it. The reason is simple. You really don't live in that world. You just log. Things happen when you're not there and sure the world looks a little different when you log back in but again...the repetition.
Like I said, sure the way the content is being presented is innovative but you're still going to be doing the same thing regardless. Go here and kill x of y.
There's no true way to completely eradicate an enemy or faction. At some point sooner or later they come back. You can influence the time it takes for that to happen but you'll never fundamentally alter it.
Chains, trees, whatever, are just illusions of change. the need to be able to have all the players experience content means there can't be content only a single person experiences. That means repetition.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
Meh. i think he misses the bigger point I'm focusing on. I think GW2's DE is innovative but i also think this is something that innovation isn't going to solve because GW2, like every game, is a closed system. So comepletely eradicate the orcs? It's not going to happen. the orcs will come back at some point.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
Sigh... just became aware of it... once again I see a thread that was about SWTOR getting turned towards a GW2 topic by GW fans; if it isn't posting trashtalk threads and posts in the SWTOR forum section by sandbox fans and/or TOR haters or other-game fans, then it is thread derailment into a 'GW2 is so much better, na na na na' discussion... meh
Well, I guess that's a matter of perception. From what it looks like SWTOR will dwarf as good as all other themepark MMO's in the amount of content it'll have at launch, even comparing with how a lot of those MMO's are now.
The question though is if you regard current AAA themepark MMO's like Aion, AoC, WAR, LotrO etc to have sufficient content.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That's not so different from the real world - there's always war.
On a less serious note, I don't see how being unable to kill every centaur in Tyria makes dynamic events any less engaging. Players can effect the world around them, their actions determine whether an event has one consequence or another and while these events might eventually cycle back to their original point, it's players who chose how and when. Aside from that, there are enough dynamic events and enough variations, that the world will still feel far more alive than Rift's.
However, it's funny you should mention killing orcs for good, since Guild Wars: Beyond has already brought the end to the White Mantle and restored Kryta's monarchy, and it's next big installment is set to rid Cantha of the Afflicted, for good. I would be extremely surprised if seasonal events didn't have permanent effects. The boss Dhuum, the former God of Death, was added to the Underworld one Hallowe'en. It's also worthy to note that currently, Tyria is cut off from two other GW1 continents, Cantha and Elona, and permanent change will need to be implimented in order to open them up once more.
My apologies, I meant to type 1,600. Then again, that was the count over a year ago and we know they've added a load more since then.
Also, I'm sorry about the derailment. I can't help being hyped about the concept of dynamic events, though I do think Bioware's storyline will be better, that both games will launch well and if they're given the right attention after launch, they should both have good futures. I hope they do. As I said on another thread - the more competition in the industry, the better for the fans.
To quote a recent Arenanet interview: "we couldn’t release a game that was as big as Guild Wars 1 Prophecies, we have to release a game that is much bigger than that because otherwise it would just pale in comparison. This is a reality that MMO developers need to face that you’re competing against games that have been supported for several years and that can be tough." TOR is going to need to follow this mentality. It nees to have as much as GW2, as much as WoW does now, if possible. At least, that's what it'll need if it wants to be on WoW's level in terms of success. On the other hand, it can be a success without coming close to WoW... personally I'd like to see SWTOR make a big impact though xD
"Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right. This very place is neutral ground! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!"
200 hours of gameplay per class before pvp is a lot of gameplay for my lifestyle. I like to go out, travel, play tennis, etc which leaves only a few hours per week for gaming based activities. The game appears to have enough content for months for casual players.
A lot of what makes a great game is perception and individual tastes. Now, I tend to prefer quick reaction based gameplay (ala WoW arena / AoC combat / Mass Effect 2), but I also really enjoy great stories as well (Mass Effect 1& 2 / Kotor).
1600 hours of gameplay is fairly ridiculous unless they are counting in tons of grinding or something. I don't see how they could have possibly developed enough content for 1600 of gameplay, that's insane. Single player RPGs that take years to develop normally only have 60 hours of gameplay.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
That's just one of the many reasons so many of us are looking forward to this game. The amount of content here is truly revolutionary. They have specifically stated that this does NOT include raiding and pvp, it's story specific gameplay.
It's also accounting for 8 different class stories. That take you from level one to cap. SO it's not that outlandish, it just explains why they went such a traditional route with everything else. To promise revolutionary game-play on top of all of this would really be ridiculous.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Story specific gameplay that can be padded down with redundancy? Some story lines can easily be reused with tweaks here and there to give it a feel of being different. Hopefully, they can keep it to a minimum.
BOOYAKA!
Not to mention the fact that Bioware will be milking this game with expansions for years to come like they still do with their ME series. I think ME2 is up to very awesome 6 full adventure DLCs now adding hundreds of hours of content, new companions, weapons, armor, casual clothing, and continuing the main plot in a relevant and meaningful way.
This game can not fail. It's just impossible.
Who cares what amount of hours if gameplay per class, everyone plays differently, this is just a figure of approximation.
Someone will certainly going to go rush through all the content and reach endgame in a week, come back and say I told you so. This figure is for people who will listen and watch most of the cutscenes and conversation, explore the world as such.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Yeah I just can't realistically see them having 1600 hours of completely unique story based gameplay that is similar in quality to a single player RPG. It just seems impossible given what I know about the game industry.
My suspicion is that if there really is 200 hours of story gameplay per class, then there must be a lot of "overlap" between classes. I know that each class has its unique story, but maybe some of them share several missions?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Why does it always have to be GW2 vs SWTOR? They will be very different experiences, both with pluses over existing MMOs.
GW2 is free to play after you buy the box, so many players will buy it and try it out. I know I will be playing GW2. But I will not be playing GW2 for the personal story. I have no interest in the story for GW2. But I do have a lot of interest in SW stories as well as the game world in TOR.
So yes, after many months of TOR , I will play GW2 for the dynamic events and a change of pace. But I will continue to play TOR as well as purchase expansions. Ofc, it will depend on how the end game progresses in TOR and the communtiy, but I will continue whatever stories in expansions that TOR will released.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
This game can fail, and it very possibly MIGHT fail for the fact that is seems Bioware has gotten so lost in the fact that this game is story driven that they may have forgotten the mmo aspect of it. Already it's getting notches taken off for graphics and combat and the game hasn't even come out yet, the hype for this game is hardly where other AAA titles are and has boiled down more to a pure argument of whether it's going to suck or whether it's going to be awesome. It's basically a war between trolls and fanboys, which is what always happens--but at this point it seems the trolls outnumber the fanboys, possibly because the mmo community has become sceptical. Now I am just saying this from self-observation, don't bash me if I am wrong because I may very well be completely wrong but from observations that is what seems to stand out for me. I personally can see why this game would be good and why it would be bad, the story aspect seems awesome but it also raises the question of how they implement these instanced stories into a massively multiplayer environment. I also see how the game is bad which is with it's somewhat standard mmo style combat and the somewhat less serious character models which seem to detract from the star wars world to me. Personally I haven't really gotten a star wars vibe from any of the videos or images I have seen--which is disappointing... but I have yet to pass final judgement on the game because it hasn't been released, but before that time comes I will not be screaming "It's a SUCCESS!" or "It's a DUD!" just because there is no possible way of knowing. I will tell you no matter how much money you throw at an mmo if one or two major things are not right the game will not do well, so Bioware better get it perfect or their name will be forever marred as the company who wasted almost half a billion dollars on a game that failed the market.
The last I read, they were well over 60 novels of stories and just finishing up the VO work for them. Info came from E3 interviews.
And I understand the suspicion. All prior themepark games had overlap for all but the noob areas. So why will TOR be different? If you read the info, you will see that many of the questing areas will be in the same place, killing the same mobs. Being able to group up and quest with others even if you aren't on the same quest. But what they have done is add entry points all over the open game world. These entry points have a green film over the entrance. It is a seemless instance that takes you into your own area for dialogue sequences and cutscenes. So the story will be unique to you with your choices. You can kill someone or let them live and only you know what you did unless someone else is in your group along for the ride.
So they can tell complete unique stories for each class as you level. You will be in the open world 90% of the time, but that 10% will be for the story telling. At the same time, you will take on open world quests that everyone can do in the same faction. As well as heroic areas for groups, exploration, flashpoints, open world PvP on PvP servers, Warzones and PvP objective zones on both PvP and PvE servers. As well as crafting and the side game of space combat. All that content will be the same, but the story will be unique to each class. So 200 hours for each class has no overlap of actuall class story.
If you read the info, you will see that each class gets a very unique story for a very different experience. For example, they have said the Imperial Agent will have a James Bond type of story. The smuggler will have a more typical Han Solo scoundral type of story. The trooper obviously will be military and so on. So each character will feel very unique because of the very different story that is played through as well as the combat mechanics and skills.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
That wouldn't be overly surprising, but I would say similar missions, with the same contacts, that are themed for the particular class. It also wouldn't surprise me if you have the same contacts, but with completely different quests. Your still talking a huge amount of unique quest lines either way. Either way though is a HUGE step over what the rest of the MMO universe is doing.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"