Arent 4 people per party, maximum, too small ?

Adamantine

I cant help but feel that only 4 people per party is too small.

That means 25% of all people MUST play tank, and another 25% of all people MUST play healer.

A larger group size is more natural (why would anyone restrict themselves from forming a temporary alliance with more than 3 other people ?) and of course would open more tactical possibilities.

So a 6 or 8 or 10 or even 12 people party would be perfectly fine, in my opinion.

I also dont buy the "buy everything has to be rebalanced" argument.

In the trinity, if a party can kill a mob depends upon

1. The tank survives the damage

2. The healer can heal it away

3. The group finishes the mob before the healer runs OOM, the tank dies and then the party wipes.

So if you have more players, you can already fix 90% of the problems with just adding more hitpoints. Damage doesnt need to be increased. If your healers have group heals, most likely neither does area damage.

 

 

dougmysticey

So keep in mind that there are larger group missions and Raids that can have many more players involved.

I am used to having six but for this game four might be a sweet spot because then, you really only absolutely need one other player and can flesh out your party with companions if you are finding it hard to put a team together.

I am on the fence on the party number but if the game is balanced for four then it should be OK.

MMO.Maverick

It's easier and more flexible to form a group of 3-4 then forming groups of 5-6, that's also something to consider.

Keep in mind, the classes will be less strict trinity and more capable of multi-role functionality than in other MMO's.

Arathir86

Sounds like you didnt bother to read much about SWTOR, The idea is that while you can specialize in a tanking role or a healing role, you are still able to contribute to the fight in other areas. From the information that has been released thus far, Healers can still deal damage, although not as much as if they went into the advanced class suited for that, and same goes for the other roles.

The idea is that the whole group has to pitch in to come out victorious, they want to avoid situations where the Tank dies, so the healer gets blamed. Share the responsibility, share the victory... or blame.

 

EDIT: Also keep in mind that you can solo most content with your companions, You can go by yourself and your three companions (once youve unlocked them all) or you can partner with other players, 2 PC + 2 NPC, 3 PC + 1 NPC.

Dragon71UK

Don`t forget the companions. They are proberably taking them into consideration, and as there are healer and tank companions it isn`t as much of an issue.

Alot

Originally posted by Kreedz

Sounds like you didnt bother to read much about SWTOR, The idea is that while you can specialize in a tanking role or a healing role, you are still able to contribute to the fight in other areas. From the information that has been released thus far, Healers can still deal damage, although not as much as if they went into the advanced class suited for that, and same goes for the other roles.

Does that really matter? If players can COMPLETELY focus on one aspect of the trinity wouldn't it be likely that groups will go for tight specialization, since that would make fights more organized?

Palebane

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

It's easier and more flexible to form a group of 3-4 then forming groups of 5-6, that's also something to consider.

Keep in mind, the classes will be less strict trinity and more capable of multi-role functionality than in other MMO's.

 It's easier and more flexible to just solo. I'm with the OP on this one.

Castillle

Wasnt there a thread saying that there are too many dps-ers?

Four is fine for me tbh.  There are content for group sizes larger than 4 though o.o  Like..Raid-like stuff

Kyleran

As a former DAOC player anything less than 8 people is too small.

I assume TOR"s design will be such that it accomodates a variety of group combo's and perhaps one won't even need a particular combo of tank/healer, perhaps 4 DPS can easily be just as successful as 4 healers?

Arathir86

Originally posted by Alot

Originally posted by Kreedz

Sounds like you didnt bother to read much about SWTOR, The idea is that while you can specialize in a tanking role or a healing role, you are still able to contribute to the fight in other areas. From the information that has been released thus far, Healers can still deal damage, although not as much as if they went into the advanced class suited for that, and same goes for the other roles.

Does that really matter? If players can COMPLETELY focus on one aspect of the trinity wouldn't it be likely that groups will go for tight specialization, since that would make fights more organized?

The problem with games that force people to stay in 1 role and not allow them to do anything else except what that role is design for is that you segregate the community.

But no, youre right, Groups will be more organized where people can specialize, have fun looking for Tank for 40 minutes though... that definately sounds like fun.

Krellen

I have recently been playing DCUO and their groups are 4 man.  I have been feeling that 4 is perfect.  Especially since every class can also be DPS if they have the gear.  Makes getting groups much better then when you need 5 or 6 people.

karat76

I think 4 is fine and I used to play DAoC as well. Getting 8 people together can be a pain and lets be realistic all larger groups do is give me more dpsers to carry around with my tank.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

It's easier and more flexible to form a group of 3-4 then forming groups of 5-6, that's also something to consider.

Keep in mind, the classes will be less strict trinity and more capable of multi-role functionality than in other MMO's.

 It's easier and more flexible to just solo. I'm with the OP on this one.

But we weren't talking about soloing, of course that's the easiest. We were talking about grouping, and 4 person teams are still a group, there's no rule that says that groups have to be 5 or 6 person.

If a hard trinity isn't required to be successful in combat, then 4 man teams should be great too. Of course, some people believe that only hard trinity team setups can work in an MMO and not soft trinity team setups and hybrid classes, but I'm not that one of those people.

Palebane

@maverick. Alright, lets say 2 players then? Wouldn't it seem kind of silly to have 2 player max parties even though that would be more efficient and flexible? 4 Players seems more like I'm playing a co-op game like L4D2, Borderlands, or Diablo. I thought the games were supposed to be massive. Why can't we have massive raids before endgame?

DarkPony

Originally posted by Palebane

@maverick. Alright, lets say 2 players then? Doesn't that seem kind of silly to have 2 player max parties even though that would be more efficient and flexible? 4 Players seems more like I'm playing a co-op game like L4D2, Borderlands, or Diablo. I thought the games were supposed to be massive. Why can't we have massive raids before endgame?

Are operations limited to endgame / max level? Didn't know that.

Palebane

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Palebane

@maverick. Alright, lets say 2 players then? Wouldn't it seem kind of silly to have 2 player-max parties even though that would be more efficient and flexible? 4 Players seems more like I'm playing a co-op game like L4D2, Borderlands, or Diablo. I thought the games were supposed to be massive. Why can't we have massive raids before endgame?

Are operations limited to endgame / max level? Didn't know that.

 No. That was my point.

Alot

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

It's easier and more flexible to form a group of 3-4 then forming groups of 5-6, that's also something to consider.

Keep in mind, the classes will be less strict trinity and more capable of multi-role functionality than in other MMO's.

 It's easier and more flexible to just solo. I'm with the OP on this one.

But we weren't talking about soloing, of course that's the easiest. We were talking about grouping, and 4 person teams are still a group, there's no rule that says that groups have to be 5 or 6 person.

If a hard trinity isn't required to be successful in combat, then 4 man teams should be great too. Of course, some people believe that only hard trinity team setups can work in an MMO and not soft trinity team setups and hybrid classes, but I'm not that one of those people.

If the concept of soft trinity is to become a success in SW:TOR, than you'll need a majority of the SW:TOR players to think like you. Guilds will probably adapt the soft-trinity but in the case of PuGs, where the chance on failure is much higher, people will favor the setup that is easier to execute. And it is likely that having to execute two roles, even with major contribution to one of them and minor contribution to the other, is harder than completely focusing on one role. 

Therefore Alot requests of you, MMO.Maverick, that you will write a comprehensive guide on how to create successful PuGs with the soft trinity!

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Palebane

@maverick. Alright, lets say 2 players then? Wouldn't it seem kind of silly to have 2 player max parties even though that would be more efficient and flexible? 4 Players seems more like I'm playing a co-op game like L4D2, Borderlands, or Diablo. I thought the games were supposed to be massive. Why can't we have massive raids before endgame?

Well, as you can see in the thread there are other people who're fine with 4 person teams as well. If you look at it, even 5 or 6 man groups aren't massive, 1 or 2 doesn't suddenly make things massive at all, it's just what you're used to if you haven't played MMO's that have 4 man teams.

As for massive raids, who says that there isn't multi-group content before endgame?

 

Originally posted by Alot

If the concept of soft trinity is to become a success in SW:TOr, than you'll need a majority of the SW:TOR players to think like you. Guilds will probably adapt the soft-trinity but in the case of PuGs, where the chance on failure is much higher, people will favor the setup that is easier to execute. And it is likely that having to execute two roles, even with major contribution to one of them and minor contribution to the other, is harder than completely focusing on one role. 

Therefore Alot requests of you, MMO.Maverick, that you will write a comprehensive guide on how to create successful PuGs with the soft trinity!

PUG's are always a terror, I can only see that change after a while. It's true, people can sometimes be very rigid when it comes to changing their way, I suspect GW2 will have the same problem with abandoning the trinity completely, some players will be lost without it if that's the only thing they know.

As you say, it all depends upon how things are executed and implemented. If it's possible to overcome encounters without a dedicated tank or healer in the team and people have experienced that or noticed it, then you'll see more and more adapt to such alternate setups, just as players adapted to all the weird and extravagant FotM team builds that raged around in GW.

I think I have to pass on the comprehensive guide, I'm pretty sure there are very comprehensive articles and blogs around that delved into the matter of soft trinity in MMO's

Castillle

Originally posted by Palebane

@maverick. Alright, lets say 2 players then? Doesn't that seem kind of silly to have 2 player max parties even though that would be more efficient and flexible? 4 Players seems more like I'm playing a co-op game like L4D2, Borderlands, or Diablo. I thought the games were supposed to be massive. Why can't we have massive raids before endgame?

The only game I remember having massive raids before end game are F2P games and...and...and...and....and...

Yeah I cant think of anything else o.o 

I know Fiesta Online has kings quests starting level 5 or somethign and thats a 50 person raid right there o.o 

As for why cant we have massive raids before end game?  Because the resources required to create it would probably be silly if people dont play on it more?  And its kind of funny to say "4 players seem more like im playing a co op game" because when youre not doing the group content, youre better off soloing (which is going to be most of the time) and thus youre left with...feeling like its a single player gamE! o.o

Its a design decision.  If they were to make large scale multiplayer content from mid-game then theyll have to find the proper designs, probably add more dev time for the systems, etc etc.  So they probably didnt even think of that because they were following WoWs formula for the most part o.o

Unknown

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Palebane

@maverick. Alright, lets say 2 players then? Doesn't that seem kind of silly to have 2 player max parties even though that would be more efficient and flexible? 4 Players seems more like I'm playing a co-op game like L4D2, Borderlands, or Diablo. I thought the games were supposed to be massive. Why can't we have massive raids before endgame?

Are operations limited to endgame / max level? Didn't know that.

well gabe amatangelo did say that they are available the moment you hit 50(which is the current cap).

 

however that doesn't mean you can't put together a raid group and do something like hunt world bosses like daniel erickson talked about doing on dormund kaas

gamer1982o39

dps, healer, tank

1 extra

 

I wouldn't be shocked if they thought 'we want 3 but they want 5'

Karnage69

I am actually playing an mmo right now that has 3man and 5man dungeons. Its kind of nice.

maskedweasel

I don't like the idea of a (party) minimum for content.  Even if the content is super tough, sometimes I like to just get in there with what I've got and see if I can make a dent in the content using game knowledge and player skill. (not usually by myself).  

 

Aside from that though, the way SWTOR is doing it is good enough for me.  4 Party max with the ability to have companions stand in (albeit they won't be as good) makes me happy as its far more likely I'll have at least one other person with me at all times and the amount of content that is open to me at that point is... well... pretty much everything.

TdogSkal

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Palebane

@maverick. Alright, lets say 2 players then? Wouldn't it seem kind of silly to have 2 player max parties even though that would be more efficient and flexible? 4 Players seems more like I'm playing a co-op game like L4D2, Borderlands, or Diablo. I thought the games were supposed to be massive. Why can't we have massive raids before endgame?

Well, as you can see in the thread there are other people who're fine with 4 person teams as well. If you look at it, even 5 or 6 man groups aren't massive, 1 or 2 doesn't suddenly make things massive at all, it's just what you're used to if you haven't played MMO's that have 4 man teams.

As for massive raids, who says that there isn't multi-group content before endgame?

 

Originally posted by Alot

If the concept of soft trinity is to become a success in SW:TOr, than you'll need a majority of the SW:TOR players to think like you. Guilds will probably adapt the soft-trinity but in the case of PuGs, where the chance on failure is much higher, people will favor the setup that is easier to execute. And it is likely that having to execute two roles, even with major contribution to one of them and minor contribution to the other, is harder than completely focusing on one role. 

Therefore Alot requests of you, MMO.Maverick, that you will write a comprehensive guide on how to create successful PuGs with the soft trinity!

PUG's are always a terror, I can only see that change after a while. It's true, people can sometimes be very rigid when it comes to changing their way, I suspect GW2 will have the same problem with abandoning the trinity completely, some players will be lost without it if that's the only thing they know.

As you say, it all depends upon how things are executed and implemented. If it's possible to overcome encounters without a dedicated tank or healer in the team and people have experienced that or noticed it, then you'll see more and more adapt to such alternate setups, just as players adapted to all the weird and extravagant FotM team builds that raged around in GW.

I think I have to pass on the comprehensive guide, I'm pretty sure there are very comprehensive articles and blogs around that delved into the matter of soft trinity in MMO's

 This post should be all the proof we need that MMOs today suck and are worthless compared to the "1st Gen" MMOs. (UO, EQ, ect).

"PUG's are always a terror......"   Really?  Come on.  PUGs used to be the main way to group, the main way to socialize in game.  I spend 60% of my time in PUGs in Everquest.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 This post should be all the proof we need that MMOs today suck and are worthless compared to the "1st Gen" MMOs. (UO, EQ, ect).

"PUG's are always a terror......"   Really?  Come on.  PUGs used to be the main way to group, the main way to socialize in game.  I spend 60% of my time in PUGs in Everquest.

Sure, me too, was a great time in EQ. But overall MMO gamer community has changed, both the newer part of the overall MMO playerbase as well as the older 'MMO dawners' of whom quite some have replaced their initial openmindedness and enthusiasm with jaded intolerance. PUG's are a terror - imo - in that you won't know if you've a good group or a bad one. Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you're not.

I'm sure that there are people who'll keep complaining about how in the past everything was better, enough proof of those complaints can be found at this site, but it seems to me that a lot of those have lost the ability to enjoy MMO gaming in general, or at least they haven't been able to change or broaden their taste to have fun with MMO's that aren't a copy or clone of those first MMO's.

BarakIII

Originally posted by Kreedz

Sounds like you didnt bother to read much about SWTOR, The idea is that while you can specialize in a tanking role or a healing role, you are still able to contribute to the fight in other areas. From the information that has been released thus far, Healers can still deal damage, although not as much as if they went into the advanced class suited for that, and same goes for the other roles.

The idea is that the whole group has to pitch in to come out victorious, they want to avoid situations where the Tank dies, so the healer gets blamed. Share the responsibility, share the victory... or blame.

 

EDIT: Also keep in mind that you can solo most content with your companions, You can go by yourself and your three companions (once youve unlocked them all) or you can partner with other players, 2 PC + 2 NPC, 3 PC + 1 NPC.

You were doing well until you added the edit. What gave you this idea? One pc can only use one companion at a time so two people could each have a companion, but one person couldn't use three.