"Grind"; biggest problem for PvP'ers, or just as big problem for PvE'ers?

chrisel

When I read threads here, I feel that most who complain about too much grind (myself included) are "PvP players".

Isolated seen, eachieving any goal could been labeled "grind"; whether it is getting a level, a stat raise, a sword, a title or getting a house etc etc. But to me, the "grind" is in particular being able to kill them others on equal terms based upon my characters powers.

So, do the PvE players feel the grind as just as big obstacle as the PvP'ers do, or are they more content with the journey to their goal, while PvP'ers want to be competetive faster, preferably "instantly"?

I am okay with "grind" ingame as long as it is more of affecting my character in a non-PvP way; like houses, looks, titles etc etc. When it comes to be competetive in PvP I demand the "instant gratification". Personally I see "instant PvP gratification" of a less problem than getting "instant gratification" when it comes to non-PvP related stuff.

Are we really needing so much grind in our MMO's that are affecting the characters pereformance; can't the grind be moved into stuff where it does'nt affect our toons perfomance in PvP, maybe not even affecting the PvE either? I am sure MMO developers can find nice things for us to grind after other than "deaths"...

Bladestrom

Instant gratification in mmorgs is an interesting and recent development.  Option 1 you get huge gratification because you have worked towards a goal, option 2, you just get the goal with little effort.   In other words you are not interested in the journey just getting to the .....end-game.  This is one of the key changes that have wrecked the mmorg model, and look at the mess it is in today, content takes money and time to develop, but a large proportion of the current user base only knows how to rush through content rather than enjoy it.

Grinding is a natural way of slowing down the pace of a game, and as soon as a player gets less obsessed with how much xp they get an hour or how quick they rush past everything to get to the end game, the more they will enjoy the game overall.  IMO ofc.

Worth remembering character performance should be relative to players at the same level as you, not people who have achieved max levels.  People who rush to end-game are allways looking at what end game players have, I want that now!  Rather, look at what they have if you must but appreciate it is the carrot on the stick to motivate you though the game, the longer the stick, the longer the experience - trick is to again enjoy that experience/journey as it was designed.

chrisel

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Instant gratification in mmorgs is an interesting and recent development.  Option 1 you get huge gratification because you have worked towards a goal, option 2, you just get the goal with little effort.   In other words you are not interested in the journey just getting to the .....end-game.  This is one of the key changes that have wrecked the mmorg model, and look at the mess it is in today, content takes money and time to develop, but a large proportion of the current user base only knows how to rush through content rather than enjoy it.

Grinding is a natural way of slowing down the pace of a game, and as soon as a player gets less obsessed with how much xp they get an hour or how quick they rush past everything to get to the end game, the more they will enjoy the game overall.  IMO ofc.

Worth remembering character performance should be relative to players at the same level as you, not people who have achieved max levels.  People who rush to end-game are allways looking at what end game players have, I want that now!  Rather, look at what they have if you must but appreciate it is the carrot on the stick to motivate you though the game, the longer the stick, the longer the experience - trick is to again enjoy that experience/journey as it was designed.

This makes me think of Lord of the Rings Online; I can enjouy doing the "achievements" there at any level, as well as "enjoying" the view. There is no place written that end level players does'nt enjoy the view, is it?

I think the grind has no point anymore; every game has same basics to control, thus no need for any "learning" process. It is like taking the driving license again every time you buy a new car. Some are mouseclickers, some use 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0, and some of us, like me, are pro keybinders. It is long time since I felt I needed a "tutorial", but that is about "it" I need when I start playing a game.

What I could/would accept of a grind, is a grind after titles, or achievements like in LOTRO. I do feel left outside of LOTRO due to the fact that I have still only gotten to level 40 even though I have played the game since it was released. (not contininously). I am quite sure that I would be constantly subbed to the game if it was not for me unable to "grind" myself to end level there. I just HATE the grind in LOTRO... Strange enough, I have no problems grinding after the achievements once a while there.

So; why not give us "potent" characters; a pool of numbers which we can split into a character as we please, then head out to get our nice swords & adrenaline-injected kills?

ravtec

Think it depends on people more then pvp/pve players.

I playd l2 from start to a year in and had some great fun in that pvp game. i never reachd max level in that year as i was busy pvping while leveling and i had alot of great battles made a few nasty enemys on the way. I was very active that year on l2 so i am a bit supriced i never managed to get to max level.

For me the journey is the fun ellement in mmo, when i reach max level its game over.  Either i start a new char or start on a new game.

A buddy of mine is the opposite of me, he realy hates the journey. nothing irks him more then chewing out levels to get to the fun part of the game.He is a raider btw.

Axehilt

Well if you want a good PVP game, you don't play MMORPGs.

PVP tends to be best when it's about competition and skill.   "Who played longer?" (ie progression) isn't either of those, which is why you might hear complaints of grind.

Bladestorm has things kinda warped.  Complaints of grind in PVP are only 'new' because MMORPGs as a genre introduced the concept.  PVP previously didn't involve grind, but MMORPGs have experimented with making PVP more casual by having "who played longer" matter.  Hence, grind matters.  Hence, you hear valid complaints (especially from players seeking true skillful competition.)

Wharg0ul

I think some people need to go play shooters and quit bitching about the "grind" in MMORPGS.

Some people seem to want to be at "end game" immediately, so they can go PVP constantly with full equality.

Um.....isn't that what a shooter is????

MMORPGs aren't supposed to be about rushing to the level cap or equality, or "grind". Originally, once you got to the level cap, that was it....time to roll another toon. Game over, unless you wanted to help your lowbie friends or sit around in a city showing off.

There was no "end game", there was no "grind". It was all bout the journey, exploration and adventure.

Now MMORPGs have been completely ruined (yes, ruined.....let's watch another cookie-cutter MMO fail right after release and end up F2P or closed entirely) by this "rush to end game" mentality.

The players bitch about all the things that make an MMORPG an MMORPG, and actually say things like "why do we need housing, or crafting?? We just need balanced PVP!"

 

There are games like Battlefield, Call Of duty, and others for these people to play....designed JUST FOR THEM.

Southpaw.Gamer

This issues really depends on the type of game it is... for example.

 

Themepark (WoW):

 

PvE grind isn't really an issue to me because no matter what there is a TON of content to do that is MY level whatever level I so happen to be.  I actually prefer the "grind" in this sense because once you hit the end game you wind up "grinding" the same content over-and over... 

 

PvP grind in WoW is somewhat the same... though not.  With the addition of relics that level 80's can buy for their alts the PvP bracket becomes very unbalanced for people that don't have the relics.  I can have fun in WoW PvP at any level... but at the same time to enjoy it properly you need to be top level and have the gear... so the "grind" can be a problem if you're competitive like me,

 

Thank god I gave up on themepark games... though I will try SWTOR

 

Sandbox (Darkfall):

 

PvE grind is a HUGE issue, the stronger you are the more gold you can farm per hour which equals less time preparing for PvP.. this is not the type of game where you want to take long to reach a competive level so slow PvE progression is not acceptable.

 

PvP grind... same as the PvE.  In Darkfall you want to reach that "vet" status quickly so that you can compete... however for a lot of people it takes far too much time still.

 

Conclusion: 

 

Grind can be acceptable in a themepark game... however in my perfect sandbox leveling anything (beyond maybe crafting) doesn't take long and the game isn't about "grind".

 

My perfect game would have people hooked on playing due to player interaction within the sandbox.  Clan wars... constant changing world that players are affecting.  I would rather log in and go to war with the skills needed to do so than have to grind X amount of hours for X amount of skill gains JUST to be able to enjoy what I actually want to do.

 

The concept of "grind" is out dated and developers need to realize there are better ways to keep people paying the sub fee.

Axehilt

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

I think some people need to go play shooters and quit bitching about the "grind" in MMORPGS.

Some people seem to want to be at "end game" immediately, so they can go PVP constantly with full equality.

Um.....isn't that what a shooter is????

MMORPGs aren't supposed to be about rushing to the level cap or equality, or "grind". Originally, once you got to the level cap, that was it....time to roll another toon. Game over, unless you wanted to help your lowbie friends or sit around in a city showing off.

There was no "end game", there was no "grind". It was all bout the journey, exploration and adventure.

Now MMORPGs have been completely ruined (yes, ruined.....let's watch another cookie-cutter MMO fail right after release and end up F2P or closed entirely) by this "rush to end game" mentality.

The players bitch about all the things that make an MMORPG an MMORPG, and actually say things like "why do we need housing, or crafting?? We just need balanced PVP!"

 

There are games like Battlefield, Call Of duty, and others for these people to play....designed JUST FOR THEM.

Um, but if there was no progression wouldn't people be playing PVP entirely for the journey?

Progression isn't the reason I play TF2.  Fun is.  "Journey" is.

Kind of odd that you would criticize someone for wanting progression removed, when its removal leaves nothing *except* journey.

chrisel

We are different views/approach to games, I can see that. You do not like end level pvp nor raiding. All you enjoy is the journey.

I could have stated that I only care about end level PvP, which is a truthness with modifications; Since MMO's offers nothing to me, there is only a life at the end level; the PvP. I detest raiding, so thats not an option.

Basically all MMO's are the same; a long grind to end level, then, and not before that, the game is split into PvP or Raiding.

I hate the journey in all them MMO's. I would like to explore the content on my OWN premises, not pre-set "this is how you need to do it".

 

Edit; spelling

Palebane

The grind is only negative if players notice it and that goes for PvP and PvE equally. I got tired of doing the same static linear quests and dungeons/battlegrounds in WoW because the progression always seemed to end up back at the starting point, which made the time spent seem almost worthless outside the social aspects. On the other hand, I can grind quests all day long in games like The WItcher and Fallout 3 because I don't even notice I'm progressing, for the most part, it's just fun.

 

garry

Just a comment about 'grind'. I am a PvE/Solo/guildie type of player. Is it that 'grind' depends on a particular point of view? If what you are doing is fun is it a 'grind"? Eagerness to get levels, stats, gear, money affects all players to a greater or lesser extent. If the methods of obtaining these things are boring then the grind feeling is inevitable, PvE, PvP or power leveler.

 

So how you get there is so important. Immersion and environment can have an enormous effect on that process. If you are enjoying the process then there is no problem with 'grind'. If not, sinanorya game. That is just the way it is. Would you like to know what Biizzard has in the way of numbers of new subs coming in vs old subs leaving? I would, just to see how old players feel about the 'grind' process. Not the haters, just the ordinary players who sub and then stay or leave.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Axehilt

Well if you want a good PVP game, you don't play MMORPGs.

PVP tends to be best when it's about competition and skill.   "Who played longer?" (ie progression) isn't either of those, which is why you might hear complaints of grind.

Bladestorm has things kinda warped.  Complaints of grind in PVP are only 'new' because MMORPGs as a genre introduced the concept.  PVP previously didn't involve grind, but MMORPGs have experimented with making PVP more casual by having "who played longer" matter.  Hence, grind matters.  Hence, you hear valid complaints (especially from players seeking true skillful competition.)

 yup thats maybe a fair point, I am looking at it from the perspective of where it is in themeparks at the moment.  Seperate it from the mmorg side which is about continually developing your character and it can work as suggested.  The grind is more for your pve/rp/community side.

Axehilt

Originally posted by Palebane

The grind is only negative if players notice it and that goes for PvP and PvE equally.

Yes, Grind is *defined* by players noticing it.  Grind is a player saying, "this is too repetitive".

Axehilt

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by Axehilt

Well if you want a good PVP game, you don't play MMORPGs.

PVP tends to be best when it's about competition and skill.   "Who played longer?" (ie progression) isn't either of those, which is why you might hear complaints of grind.

Bladestorm has things kinda warped.  Complaints of grind in PVP are only 'new' because MMORPGs as a genre introduced the concept.  PVP previously didn't involve grind, but MMORPGs have experimented with making PVP more casual by having "who played longer" matter.  Hence, grind matters.  Hence, you hear valid complaints (especially from players seeking true skillful competition.)

 yup thats maybe a fair point, I am looking at it from the perspective of where it is in themeparks at the moment.  Seperate it from the mmorg side which is about continually developing your character and it can work as suggested.  The grind is more for your pve/rp/community side.

It's very apparent in the major sandbox games too.  Unless a player sinks months into them, their PVP capabilities are crap.

Meanwhile there are some themepark games where your PVP capabilities immediately *aren't* crap. It had its other issues, but in Warhammer you could PVP immediately and be a useful contributor (and at the top of each tier, you would be a dominant participant if you were skilled.)

Wickedjelly

Originally posted by chrisel

When I read threads here, I feel that most who complain about too much grind (myself included) are "PvP players".

Isolated seen, eachieving any goal could been labeled "grind"; whether it is getting a level, a stat raise, a sword, a title or getting a house etc etc. But to me, the "grind" is in particular being able to kill them others on equal terms based upon my characters powers.

So, do the PvE players feel the grind as just as big obstacle as the PvP'ers do, or are they more content with the journey to their goal, while PvP'ers want to be competetive faster, preferably "instantly"?

I am okay with "grind" ingame as long as it is more of affecting my character in a non-PvP way; like houses, looks, titles etc etc. When it comes to be competetive in PvP I demand the "instant gratification". Personally I see "instant PvP gratification" of a less problem than getting "instant gratification" when it comes to non-PvP related stuff.

Are we really needing so much grind in our MMO's that are affecting the characters pereformance; can't the grind be moved into stuff where it does'nt affect our toons perfomance in PvP, maybe not even affecting the PvE either? I am sure MMO developers can find nice things for us to grind after other than "deaths"...

 I really don't see it being related to a person's preferred playstyle in relation to PvP or PvE as being the reason for one considering the "grindiness" of a game as being a factor to them.  I believe it is a little more involved than just a matter of PvP or PvE being the reason for most folks.

I think it has more to do with a game in relation to whteher or not it appeases directly to a person's opinion of what they find as being entertaining.  Quest grinding, mob grinding, loot grinding, etc.  All depends on the focal point of the game and whether or not that fits with the player's desired play style.

waynejr2

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

I think some people need to go play shooters and quit bitching about the "grind" in MMORPGS.

Some people seem to want to be at "end game" immediately, so they can go PVP constantly with full equality.

Um.....isn't that what a shooter is????

MMORPGs aren't supposed to be about rushing to the level cap or equality, or "grind". Originally, once you got to the level cap, that was it....time to roll another toon. Game over, unless you wanted to help your lowbie friends or sit around in a city showing off.

There was no "end game", there was no "grind". It was all bout the journey, exploration and adventure.

Now MMORPGs have been completely ruined (yes, ruined.....let's watch another cookie-cutter MMO fail right after release and end up F2P or closed entirely) by this "rush to end game" mentality.

The players bitch about all the things that make an MMORPG an MMORPG, and actually say things like "why do we need housing, or crafting?? We just need balanced PVP!"

 

There are games like Battlefield, Call Of duty, and others for these people to play....designed JUST FOR THEM.

 That is very old school and even back in the day, there were those who just wanted to finish a game as quickly as they can.  To them finishing a game means winning.

Us oldtimers had a lot more patience. We had to because we were on main frames before the PC existed and had to deal with early O/S and network problems.  Not to mention a ton of bugs that existed that would cause massive flame fests today.  We are not part of the instant gratification generation and will never be.  We don't fully relate to it.

When I say the problem is the instant gratification crowd has change (ie ruined) gaming, I mean gaming has changed from my playstyle to their playstyle.  

Lyram

Some seem to have forgotten that NC Soft West went out of their way to sell the "westernizing" of Aion before and after launch.  I remember a promotional video featuring an American writer reassuring the audience that the game wouldnt' feel foreign.  There was another video featuring cute young American programmers and designers in San Francisco and Seattle working on the game.

The argument of whether an Asian game (or any other game) should be grindy versus themepark, quest-driven, is dated.  Both forumulas can be tedious.  Aion had both.  At least you could switch between them.  Fortunately we're now being marketed  a game, Guild Wars 2, that promises to throw both questy and grindy formulas out the window.  So soon we'll have multiple games adding a third ingredient, the Public Quest, Event, Flashpoint, what have you.  At least there'll be three ingredients to choose from.

To NC Soft's credit, they hired Lum the Mad and others to smash bots and gold sellers.  And they did a good job.  Aion is pretty, and fairly well made.  It's too bad they (and Mytic, and Funcom, etc) made such bad missteps before and after launch.  All of their pants were down, despite vociferous denials to the contrary.

Axehilt

Originally posted by waynejr2

 That is very old school and even back in the day, there were those who just wanted to finish a game as quickly as they can.  To them finishing a game means winning.

Us oldtimers had a lot more patience. We had to because we were on main frames before the PC existed and had to deal with early O/S and network problems.  Not to mention a ton of bugs that existed that would cause massive flame fests today.  We are not part of the instant gratification generation and will never be.  We don't fully relate to it.

When I say the problem is the instant gratification crowd has change (ie ruined) gaming, I mean gaming has changed from my playstyle to their playstyle.  

What on earth are you talking about?

Why do you think games are faster and more convenient?  Because our generation wanted gratification more quickly.

You didn't have more patience because you *wanted* all those problems.  You had more patience because you were forced to deal with those inconveniences.

Meanwhile, every human scientific advance you enjoyed growing up was "instant gratification" to the generation before yours.  So you're exactly the same as every generation of mankind, sorry to say.  (It's particularly ironic that your example of patience revolves around computers; computers are basically the most time-saving, instantly-gratifying invention of the last hundred years.)

chrisel

Everyone seem to agree that current MMO's fail to deliver; either because it has instant gratification or too much grind.

So what is the future of the MMO's? Someone here is talking about GW2 will throw all this out of the window; which means?

Personally I do not bother much about new MMO releases anymore. I "know" they suck, so I just play them I know give me "some" satisfaction. I do not care about the setting the new game is; I know it is same old same old anyways.

10 years ago I played every release there was; that it'self was an experience to me. Today it does not matter. Why waste money on a new MMO when you can "grind" more thus be better in an older MMO you got?

This makes me think that I might never should have left WoW.... lol

Madimorga

Maybe the wide adoption of the buy to play (Guild Wars) model is the answer to the grind problem.  PvP or PVE, grind is a huge problem for me.  Every time the leveling slows down in the games I've tried lately, I roll an alt.  Then another alt.  Then another.  Then I quit the game.

 

Why?  Because there are only so many furry rodents, wandering bandits, and miscellaneous monsters I'm willing to kill to find out what my newest spell or ability is like.  And while early leveling in most games is now a pleasant breeze, fifteen or twenty levels later, I find I'm losing interest.  We've all spent way too much of our time leveling this way to find it amusing for long anymore.  And those of us who refuse to do what doesn't amuse us quickly quit rather than continue to grind in search of shinies and pixel power.

 

Developers need to stop with the sharp dropoff in leveling speed or they need to make leveling fun again for the old crowd.  The problem is, just like we miss our first MMO, they probably miss how eager we were to spend hours there doing the same things over and over, paying $15 a month for years, in no rush to reach max level, and comparatively easily amused!

 

Too bad, developers, times have changed.  If you want to keep the old crowd, you're going to have to put more work and creativity into your games, because we're just not amused anymore.

Antarious

Yes this subject is my key to not wanting to play MMO's anymore.

 

Its not the "grind" because that hasn't changed.   Its the way the games are developed around the grind.

 

Once upon a time you played the game to advance.   You had fun because you were "playing a game" and the advancement was just a bonus.

 

The way the games are now you advance to play... Because you need a certain Talent setup, gear etc to be able to play...

 

PvP is just like PvE now.   Grind out levels followed by gear .. or in some games so pvp related rank level as well.

 

In Ultima Online you pvp'd to pvp... then again looting or getting looted were part of that.   However, it made the crafters very happy with the sales.

noterra

This game genré has been overwhelmed by spoiled consumers who require instant reward. Unfortunatly these type of gamers are in a ridiculously big majority. Don't get me wrong, in the end of the day it's probably for the best. Thanks to them we push the quality of games even further. Though I'm certain that there are more people like me out there, people that enjoyed the oldschool grind. People that enjoyed the adrenaline one got when getting near death due to the death penalties. 

 

 

Do what you want with modern games, but always leave a grind feature in the game. A not to vocal part of this community still enjoys the oldschool grind. I remember grinding the same mobs for days, weeks, back in the days. I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy it now. 

 

chrisel

Originally posted by noterra

This game genré has been overwhelmed by spoiled consumers who require instant reward.

Wrong. The genre is flooded over with old gamers that are bored doing the same old thing over & over & over again, until it is so repetetive it becomes a grind. We just want to skip that part and get to the fun part asap. MMO's fails to deliver any "fun" in the journey. The "journey" has been all the same for 10 years to me.

Unfortunatly these type of gamers are in a ridiculously big majority. Don't get me wrong, in the end of the day it's probably for the best. Thanks to them we push the quality of games even further. Though I'm certain that there are more people like me out there, people that enjoyed the oldschool grind. People that enjoyed the adrenaline one got when getting near death due to the death penalties. 

I enjoy 'consuequnces' ingame too. I consider myself "old chool", but I do also feel I am changing as the MMO genre changes. I demand better games as the years go by.

Do what you want with modern games, but always leave a grind feature in the game.

I agree. Thats why I think the grind part should be some sort of "achievements" like in LOTRO. I do not think it is neccesary to dump the grind into the class development though.

A not to vocal part of this community still enjoys the oldschool grind. I remember grinding the same mobs for days, weeks, back in the days. I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy it now. 

You find you answer to this in your 2nd sentence; Those who do not like this are in "ridicolously big majority". I do not think the MMO industry will listen to the minority in the long run here. "Old School" days are soon totally gone I hope.

 

waynejr2

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by waynejr2

 That is very old school and even back in the day, there were those who just wanted to finish a game as quickly as they can.  To them finishing a game means winning.

Us oldtimers had a lot more patience. We had to because we were on main frames before the PC existed and had to deal with early O/S and network problems.  Not to mention a ton of bugs that existed that would cause massive flame fests today.  We are not part of the instant gratification generation and will never be.  We don't fully relate to it.

When I say the problem is the instant gratification crowd has change (ie ruined) gaming, I mean gaming has changed from my playstyle to their playstyle.  

What on earth are you talking about?

Why do you think games are faster and more convenient?  Because our generation wanted gratification more quickly.

You didn't have more patience because you *wanted* all those problems.  You had more patience because you were forced to deal with those inconveniences.

Meanwhile, every human scientific advance you enjoyed growing up was "instant gratification" to the generation before yours.  So you're exactly the same as every generation of mankind, sorry to say.  (It's particularly ironic that your example of patience revolves around computers; computers are basically the most time-saving, instantly-gratifying invention of the last hundred years.)

 We were patient back then.  We were computer programmers from the 70s and we had to do a lot.   Ever wirewrap a board?   We had patience because we were troubleshooters and we had other options but took this option. maybe you didn't have any other options, but I sure the heck did.  So that puts it on you.  My parents said no to me so I learned I couldn't get everything I wanted.

The current generation is spoiled.  They are the want it all instantly generation. 

Tyrantas

It's okay if I have to grind gear by doing PvP, otherwise it's not.

Madimorga

Originally posted by noterra

This game genré has been overwhelmed by spoiled consumers who require instant reward. Unfortunatly these type of gamers are in a ridiculously big majority. Don't get me wrong, in the end of the day it's probably for the best. Thanks to them we push the quality of games even further. Though I'm certain that there are more people like me out there, people that enjoyed the oldschool grind. People that enjoyed the adrenaline one got when getting near death due to the death penalties. 

 

 

Do what you want with modern games, but always leave a grind feature in the game. A not to vocal part of this community still enjoys the oldschool grind. I remember grinding the same mobs for days, weeks, back in the days. I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy it now. 

 

 

I don't require instant anything.  But unless the content is fresh, I do require a faster pace than developers have been providing me with.

 

And I like being a spoiled consumer, there are so many things we have no choice about purchasing.  Food, of course, and for many of us, a car and fuel, and then there's the need for a place to live and something to wear.  When it comes to something I can live without that I have purchased in order to make life more enjoyable, my standards are very high.