The biggest advantage of B2P and F2P games is that you can keep a P2P game running next to them, while switching between playing them for variety.
I think what works best is a F2P hybrid model, or C2P (choose 2 pay) or 'gaming a la carte', where you can adjust the amount you'll pay for a game based upon the time you think you'll spend playing it in a week or month, the current models are all too rigid, not a la carte enough yet.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am glad you said it. Although it has been said many times over again.
It's unfortunate how easy Bioware is getting off with the game they made for no reason but 'fan boys' who were committed to buying the game in 2008 before a single frame of gameplay footage was released.
The entire thing is exemplary of a simple psychological phenomenon referred to as "cognitive dissonance".
Very simply put, people want to believe their new “Star Wars” MMO is the greatest thing to ever grace the world, yet they see the gameplay footage, and the “features” that Bioware has presented and it’s completely contradictory. So instead of giving up their belief that SWTOR is the greatest game there will ever be, they change their opinions and change the way they act.
For example, very few people ever say “I came to this MMO for a story”. They found out this is essentially all you get in SWTOR, all of a sudden, “Story is the number one thing I look for in a MMO”.
They demanded space combat, yet found out Bioware botched that, and presented that their space combat system is modeled after a game on the Nintendo 64, an unprecedented amount of people immediately claimed “space combat on rails is perfect”.
Very simply, had you asked the same people who are hyping the features presented by Bioware, say in 2008 before any of the features were announced, the vast majority would present completely contradictory opinions and views.
As for the story….
MMORPGs are essentially competitive games. That is what drives them. They are never difficult, or require much skill, until you start competing.
Now tell me, are you going to spend 30 minutes listening to some hologram jabber on about some Tuskens who captured a colleague’s speeder while your competitors are skipping it and shooting to the top?
Are you going to want to stand and listen to or read an hour long story behind some raid you are about to start that takes over 6 hours to complete?
Please do. Please know, I will be the guy 100 hours ahead of you in actual gameplay tearing you apart when you finally make it into a PVP instance.
When you are grouped up with 5 friends, are they going to sit there and wait for you while you say “no wait I want to hear this EPIC story”.
Seriously, “story” does not belong in an MMO beyond the simple, “these are the bad guys, these are the good guys, good luck”.
Fact that Bioware has made it completely obvious the only real thing they put into the game that required their staggering 200million + budget and five years of development is a story, ensures their failure.
As for gameplay… It’s a copy of WoW. It’s a Copy of EQ. What ever you want to say. It’s a theme park.
Unfortunately for the investors, Bioware used over 200 million dollars to make a themepark MMO, when the most money ever dedicated to a budgeted themepark MMO before was 80 million.
SWTOR is going to make SWG look like the best game ever.
SWG had a seemingly endless number of different class combinations. SWG had the most dynamic crafting system in the history of any game. SWG had PVE that was actually difficult and rewarding (Jedi preCU). It’s wasn’t a “OMFG I have to run this boring ass instance again, so that I can get this piece of armor so that I am not one shot again in PVP”. It was, “I want to play a fucking Jedi, I have to fucking earn it”.
SWTOR, you find random “materials” lying around the map. You craft one item, and there is NO!!!!!!! customization to that crafted item (identical to WoW).
WoW forced players who wanted to play to remain subscribed for a month, by constantly adding “new” raids. Forcing the bar up with hardcore games who picked up the new items, and essentially pushed anybody who didn’t run the instances out of PVP or pushed you into an instance to get it yourself just to compete.
WoW (and SWTOR now, because they copied this mechanic in every aspect), you didn’t setout to get items because you wanted them. You setout to get them to compete with the hardcore 16 hour a day gamers, who did get them. It wasn’t difficult, to get the items, it just forced you to stay subscribed for another month to get it with weekly lockouts.
SWG didn’t manipulate their players.
If you wanted the new content, you had to earn it. You had to unlock your force sensitive slot. Then you had to level it up, with the risk of being seen with a light saber out and hunted. Had you been killed 5 times, guess what. You had to start your jedi over.
SWG had real space combat. Highly customizable ships. You could fly an endless number of ships. Guess what…. In SWTOR, you get to “fly” one. Fantastic story. “I was born and my entire ‘life’ is a linear fantasy that locks me out of every thing after I complete it so I have to wait a month to get the item I could get in 2 days because THE GAME IS EASY”.
Their items weren’t “ok, so you need to run this instance 20 times to get the new gear btw, you can only run it once a day”. It was, go see these crafters who dedicated their gameplay, and a substantial amount of time and effort to making these items the best they could be.
SWTOR is trying to manipulate their subscribers using the same technique WoW does. Make everything in the game either given to you at lvl one, not in the game at all (legit space), or only attainable by running an instance 20 times (btw, you can only run it once a week HAHAHA, thanks for staying subscribed for another month).
For that simple reason, I am not only expecting SWTOR to fail in epic capacity. I honestly hope Bioware bankrupts. I truly hope the gaming community uses Bioware as an example of what should happen to Gaming companies who set out to make a GAME that sets out, not to be the best game it can be (clearly not what Bioware is doing here), but to manipulate their customers to make more money.
I am glad you said it. Although it has been said many times over again.
It's unfortunate how easy Bioware is getting off with the game they made for no reason but 'fan boys' who were committed to buying the game in 2008 before a single frame of gameplay footage was released.
The entire thing is exemplary of a simple psychological phenomenon referred to as "cognitive dissonance".
Very simply put, people want to believe their new “Star Wars” MMO is the greatest thing to ever grace the world, yet they see the gameplay footage, and the “features” that Bioware has presented and it’s completely contradictory. So instead of giving up their belief that SWTOR is the greatest game there will ever be, they change their opinions and change the way they act.
For example, very few people ever say “I came to this MMO for a story”. They found out this is essentially all you get in SWTOR, all of a sudden, “Story is the number one thing I look for in a MMO”.
They demanded space combat, yet found out Bioware botched that, and presented that their space combat system is modeled after a game on the Nintendo 64, an unprecedented amount of people immediately claimed “space combat on rails is perfect”.
Very simply, had you asked the same people who are hyping the features presented by Bioware, say in 2008 before any of the features were announced, the vast majority would present completely contradictory opinions and views.
As for the story….
MMORPGs are essentially competitive games. That is what drives them. They are never difficult, or require much skill, until you start competing.
Now tell me, are you going to spend 30 minutes listening to some hologram jabber on about some Tuskens who captured a colleague’s speeder while your competitors are skipping it and shooting to the top?
Are you going to want to stand and listen to or read an hour long story behind some raid you are about to start that takes over 6 hours to complete?
Please do. Please know, I will be the guy 100 hours ahead of you in actual gameplay tearing you apart when you finally make it into a PVP instance.
When you are grouped up with 5 friends, are they going to sit there and wait for you while you say “no wait I want to hear this EPIC story”.
Seriously, “story” does not belong in an MMO beyond the simple, “these are the bad guys, these are the good guys, good luck”.
Fact that Bioware has made it completely obvious the only real thing they put into the game that required their staggering 200million + budget and five years of development is a story, ensures their failure.
As for gameplay… It’s a copy of WoW. It’s a Copy of EQ. What ever you want to say. It’s a theme park.
Unfortunately for the investors, Bioware used over 200 million dollars to make a themepark MMO, when the most money ever dedicated to a budgeted themepark MMO before was 80 million.
SWTOR is going to make SWG look like the best game ever.
SWG had a seemingly endless number of different class combinations. SWG had the most dynamic crafting system in the history of any game. SWG had PVE that was actually difficult and rewarding (Jedi preCU). It’s wasn’t a “OMFG I have to run this boring ass instance again, so that I can get this piece of armor so that I am not one shot again in PVP”. It was, “I want to play a fucking Jedi, I have to fucking earn it”.
SWTOR, you find random “materials” lying around the map. You craft one item, and there is NO!!!!!!! customization to that crafted item (identical to WoW).
WoW forced players who wanted to play to remain subscribed for a month, by constantly adding “new” raids. Forcing the bar up with hardcore games who picked up the new items, and essentially pushed anybody who didn’t run the instances out of PVP or pushed you into an instance to get it yourself just to compete.
WoW (and SWTOR now, because they copied this mechanic in every aspect), you didn’t setout to get items because you wanted them. You setout to get them to compete with the hardcore 16 hour a day gamers, who did get them. It wasn’t difficult, to get the items, it just forced you to stay subscribed for another month to get it with weekly lockouts.
SWG didn’t manipulate their players.
If you wanted the new content, you had to earn it. You had to unlock your force sensitive slot. Then you had to level it up, with the risk of being seen with a light saber out and hunted. Had you been killed 5 times, guess what. You had to start your jedi over.
SWG had real space combat. Highly customizable ships. You could fly an endless number of ships. Guess what…. In SWTOR, you get to “fly” one. Fantastic story. “I was born and my entire ‘life’ is a linear fantasy that locks me out of every thing after I complete it so I have to wait a month to get the item I could get in 2 days because THE GAME IS EASY”.
Their items weren’t “ok, so you need to run this instance 20 times to get the new gear btw, you can only run it once a day”. It was, go see these crafters who dedicated their gameplay, and a substantial amount of time and effort to making these items the best they could be.
SWTOR is trying to manipulate their subscribers using the same technique WoW does. Make everything in the game either given to you at lvl one, not in the game at all (legit space), or only attainable by running an instance 20 times (btw, you can only run it once a week HAHAHA, thanks for staying subscribed for another month).
For that simple reason, I am not only expecting SWTOR to fail in epic capacity. I honestly hope Bioware bankrupts. I truly hope the gaming community uses Bioware as an example of what should happen to Gaming companies who set out to make a GAME that sets out, not to be the best game it can be (clearly not what Bioware is doing here), but to manipulate their customers to make more money.
This is a good example of some one completely out of touch with what the general MMO player wants and is just spouting 'facts' that he has no means to back up, 200 million to make? can you back that up?
30 minutes about Tuskens, an hour for raiding stories? you are simply talking rubbish now
I am glad you said it. Although it has been said many times over again.
It's unfortunate how easy Bioware is getting off with the game they made for no reason but 'fan boys' who were committed to buying the game in 2008 before a single frame of gameplay footage was released.
The entire thing is exemplary of a simple psychological phenomenon referred to as "cognitive dissonance".
Very simply put, people want to believe their new “Star Wars” MMO is the greatest thing to ever grace the world, yet they see the gameplay footage, and the “features” that Bioware has presented and it’s completely contradictory. So instead of giving up their belief that SWTOR is the greatest game there will ever be, they change their opinions and change the way they act.
For example, very few people ever say “I came to this MMO for a story”. They found out this is essentially all you get in SWTOR, all of a sudden, “Story is the number one thing I look for in a MMO”.
They demanded space combat, yet found out Bioware botched that, and presented that their space combat system is modeled after a game on the Nintendo 64, an unprecedented amount of people immediately claimed “space combat on rails is perfect”.
Very simply, had you asked the same people who are hyping the features presented by Bioware, say in 2008 before any of the features were announced, the vast majority would present completely contradictory opinions and views.
As for the story….
MMORPGs are essentially competitive games. That is what drives them. They are never difficult, or require much skill, until you start competing.
Now tell me, are you going to spend 30 minutes listening to some hologram jabber on about some Tuskens who captured a colleague’s speeder while your competitors are skipping it and shooting to the top?
Are you going to want to stand and listen to or read an hour long story behind some raid you are about to start that takes over 6 hours to complete?
Please do. Please know, I will be the guy 100 hours ahead of you in actual gameplay tearing you apart when you finally make it into a PVP instance.
When you are grouped up with 5 friends, are they going to sit there and wait for you while you say “no wait I want to hear this EPIC story”.
Seriously, “story” does not belong in an MMO beyond the simple, “these are the bad guys, these are the good guys, good luck”.
Fact that Bioware has made it completely obvious the only real thing they put into the game that required their staggering 200million + budget and five years of development is a story, ensures their failure.
As for gameplay… It’s a copy of WoW. It’s a Copy of EQ. What ever you want to say. It’s a theme park.
Unfortunately for the investors, Bioware used over 200 million dollars to make a themepark MMO, when the most money ever dedicated to a budgeted themepark MMO before was 80 million.
SWTOR is going to make SWG look like the best game ever.
SWG had a seemingly endless number of different class combinations. SWG had the most dynamic crafting system in the history of any game. SWG had PVE that was actually difficult and rewarding (Jedi preCU). It’s wasn’t a “OMFG I have to run this boring ass instance again, so that I can get this piece of armor so that I am not one shot again in PVP”. It was, “I want to play a fucking Jedi, I have to fucking earn it”.
SWTOR, you find random “materials” lying around the map. You craft one item, and there is NO!!!!!!! customization to that crafted item (identical to WoW).
WoW forced players who wanted to play to remain subscribed for a month, by constantly adding “new” raids. Forcing the bar up with hardcore games who picked up the new items, and essentially pushed anybody who didn’t run the instances out of PVP or pushed you into an instance to get it yourself just to compete.
WoW (and SWTOR now, because they copied this mechanic in every aspect), you didn’t setout to get items because you wanted them. You setout to get them to compete with the hardcore 16 hour a day gamers, who did get them. It wasn’t difficult, to get the items, it just forced you to stay subscribed for another month to get it with weekly lockouts.
SWG didn’t manipulate their players.
If you wanted the new content, you had to earn it. You had to unlock your force sensitive slot. Then you had to level it up, with the risk of being seen with a light saber out and hunted. Had you been killed 5 times, guess what. You had to start your jedi over.
SWG had real space combat. Highly customizable ships. You could fly an endless number of ships. Guess what…. In SWTOR, you get to “fly” one. Fantastic story. “I was born and my entire ‘life’ is a linear fantasy that locks me out of every thing after I complete it so I have to wait a month to get the item I could get in 2 days because THE GAME IS EASY”.
Their items weren’t “ok, so you need to run this instance 20 times to get the new gear btw, you can only run it once a day”. It was, go see these crafters who dedicated their gameplay, and a substantial amount of time and effort to making these items the best they could be.
SWTOR is trying to manipulate their subscribers using the same technique WoW does. Make everything in the game either given to you at lvl one, not in the game at all (legit space), or only attainable by running an instance 20 times (btw, you can only run it once a week HAHAHA, thanks for staying subscribed for another month).
For that simple reason, I am not only expecting SWTOR to fail in epic capacity. I honestly hope Bioware bankrupts. I truly hope the gaming community uses Bioware as an example of what should happen to Gaming companies who set out to make a GAME that sets out, not to be the best game it can be (clearly not what Bioware is doing here), but to manipulate their customers
There are so many exaggerations in your post, but I think it falls along the lines of Denial. Denial that there is a huge audience of individuals out there who like story such as the millions who loved it Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc. The fact that they are bringing that to the MMO world and bringing RPG back into MMORPG is a good thing, not a bad thing. I think its denial when someone assumes that they somehow understand the mindset of millions of fans looking forward to this universe. I think it will be denial when the game succeeds and one wonders "why am I playing the game 6 months post release that I never thought I would like?"
There are so many exaggerations in your post, but I think it falls along the lines of Denial. Denial that there is a huge audience of individuals out there who like story such as the millions who loved it Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc. The fact that they are bringing that to the MMO world and bringing RPG back into MMORPG is a good thing, not a bad thing. I think its denial when someone assumes that they somehow understand the mindset of millions of fans looking forward to this universe. I think it will be denial when the game succeeds and one wonders "why am I playing the game 6 months post release that I never thought I would like?"
Wishful thinking in my mind to think the story in TOR is going to compare favorably to DA, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate or the like. Seems more like DA2 from what I've heard so far. It sounds overly drawn out and not very interesting from what the people who have played it have said. You spend like 10 times as much as you should on semi-significant story element. That said, it is more the uninspired combat that makes me disinterested in TOR...it is just about as anti-lore as you can get.
It's bad form, btw, to declare that someone who is saying they dislike the game is going to end up playing it. You have no way of knowing that. It seems rather unrealistic to expect everyone to like the game, especially people who pretty clearly want to play something quite different.
I am glad you said it. Although it has been said many times over again.
It's unfortunate how easy Bioware (stuff)
Meh, I started to respond with sound arguments, but then read the whole post and thought 'why bother'. Just another sandbox fanatic who is that extreme that he feels that the only way that he can enjoy the games that he wants is the destruction of all other games and game companies that he feels interferes with his desire, no matter that other MMO gamers enjoy that kind of games. I bet he's of the same kind of people that scorns and ridicules the 10+ million WoW players for having the audicity of liking a game that he despises or that doesn't belong to a type that he feels should be on top of the MMO genre
Originally posted by Drachasor
Wishful thinking in my mind to think the story in TOR is going to compare favorably to DA, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate or the like. Seems more like DA2 from what I've heard so far. It sounds overly drawn out and not very interesting from what the people who have played it have said.
Actually, this is wrong. I cba to look it up, but the majority of people who actually played the game is pretty enthusiastic about the story questing part, they like it, even a lot of those who were indifferent towards it or who thought it wouldn't matter in the gameplay.
It's bad form, btw, to declare that someone who is saying they dislike the game is going to end up playing it. You have no way of knowing that. It seems rather unrealistic to expect everyone to like the game, especially people who pretty clearly want to play something quite different.
Funnily enough, those people that hate games have a tendency to post more in threads of games they hate or dislike than that they post in threads of games they do like. If I clearly wanted to play something quite different, I wouldn't keep hanging around forums of games I dislike or have no interest in playing.
I'd say it's also bad form to accuse fans or people interested in a game as being 'fanbois' that would be playing the game anyway no matter anyway before even a screen footage was released, nor is it good form to wish for the destruction and bankruptcy of a game company for the simplest of reasons that they're making a game that someone that wishes for their destruction doesn't like. Or do you just want to scold on proponents of the game and not the opponent/critic of the game that he was replying on and who was acting equally in bad form?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wishful thinking in my mind to think the story in TOR is going to compare favorably to DA, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate or the like. Seems more like DA2 from what I've heard so far. It sounds overly drawn out and not very interesting from what the people who have played it have said.
1. Actually, this is wrong. I cba to look it up, but the majority of people who actually played the game is pretty enthusiastic about the story questing part, they like it, even a lot of those who were indifferent towards it or who thought it wouldn't matter in the gameplay.
It's bad form, btw, to declare that someone who is saying they dislike the game is going to end up playing it. You have no way of knowing that. It seems rather unrealistic to expect everyone to like the game, especially people who pretty clearly want to play something quite different.
2. Funnily enough, those people that hate games have a tendency to post more in threads of games they hate or dislike than that they post in threads of games they do like. If I clearly wanted to play something quite different, I wouldn't keep hanging around forums of games I dislike or have no interest in playing.
3. I'd say it's also bad form to accuse fans or people interested in a game as being 'fanbois' that would be playing the game anyway no matter anyway before even a screen footage was released, nor is it good form to wish for the destruction and bankruptcy of a game company for the simplest of reasons that they're making a game that someone that wishes for their destruction doesn't like. Or do you just want to scold on proponents of the game and not the opponent/critic of the game that he was replying on and who was acting equally in bad form?
1. I've looked over videos, descriptions, and read what people had to say about story gameplay. Seems a lot more like DA2 than the others. It doesn't change much, there's rail roading, you spend a lot of time doing relatively meaningless drivel, it's dragged out, etc. The fact that the VA is good and whatnot doesn't change that. Not saying it is horrible, just saying that like DA2 if you are expecting something on the order of DA:O, KOTOR, or the like then you will very likely be quite disappointed (of course individual mileage may vary).
2. Well, I rarely post in this forum. I post more on the GW2 semi-official forums (the GW2 forum on MMORPG isn't that interesting). I don't post at all on the TOR forums. Occasionally I see a TOR thread in the recently posted section and I make a comment. I can't speak for others, but I imagine occasional some folk feel they have something to get off their chest; they are entitled to that.
3. Honestly I skimmed over just half of his post (random parts). It's clear he would rather play SWG2, which TOR was never going to be. Fair enough, he's entitled to his thoughts. Sure, I agree that calling people "fanbois" and demanding a company go bankrupt is bad form too, though I didn't notice him saying that (again, the skimming). Let's not jump to conclusions about people.
1. I've looked over videos, descriptions, and read what people had to say about story gameplay. Seems a lot more like DA2 than the others. It doesn't change much, there's rail roading, you spend a lot of time doing relatively meaningless drivel, it's dragged out, etc. The fact that the VA is good and whatnot doesn't change that. Not saying it is horrible, just saying that like DA2 if you are expecting something on the order of DA:O, KOTOR, or the like then you will very likely be quite disappointed (of course individual mileage may vary).
I haven't played DA2 so I can't say whether SWTOR will be more like DA2 than ME or DA;O. I did play and experience the Destiny quests and Tortage quests in AoC though, and the story missions in GW and the book missions in LotrO, and I enjoyed them all hugely. After playing all those I really felt that questing and quest leveling was missing that kind of immersion that those quests brought.
2. Well, I rarely post in this forum. I post more on the GW2 semi-official forums (the GW2 forum on MMORPG isn't that interesting). I don't post at all on the TOR forums. Occasionally I see a TOR thread in the recently posted section and I make a comment. I can't speak for others, but I imagine occasional some folk feel they have something to get off their chest; they are entitled to that.
I wasn't referring to you. Critics and persistent bashers are entitled to post their flames and rants about SWTOR (or any other game) although I still like I said find it odd that ppl prefer more to post rants on games they dislike than discuss games they actually like. Just like other posters are entitled to post their thoughts and comments about such rants.
3. Honestly I skimmed over just half of his post (random parts). It's clear he would rather play SWG2, which TOR was never going to be. Fair enough, he's entitled to his thoughts. Sure, I agree that calling people "fanbois" and demanding a company go bankrupt is bad form too, though I didn't notice him saying that (again, the skimming). Let's not jump to conclusions about people.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Well, maybe for you, but I haven't found a B2P yet that was worth buying all the garbage you needed to really enjoy the game. I would rather pay a suscription and get everything than buy every little thing. In the end though, it is really all in how people prefer to spend their money and each of us justify things in different ways.
how many b2p mmos are out there? I only know of one and that is guild wars. Otherwise, only single player games have been b2p.
if you check the list in this site you will surprised how many are b2p
fan of SWG, XCOM, Defiance, Global Agenda, Need For Speed, all Star Wars single player games. And waiting the darn STAR CITIZEN
an appearence is a tab in your character screen that lets you equip items that you can choose to see on your character but offer no stat benefit. say you got some set at a low lvl that you really liked the look of but the stats weren't good enough anymore, well an appearance tab lets you equip those and see them but get stats from other gear. lotro has a great appearance tab setup(imo)
so youre wearing one set of gear for the visuals and another for the stats? interesting, never seen that before (didnt play lotro)
EQ2 has this as well and to my knowledge was the first with such an option
SWG add it at Jan 2009, also has and dye system that can change both colors of an armor part
EQ2 add it at 2007 but dont know if has dye system
Add Rift and AoC to the list of mmo's that have appearance tab.
LotRO and EQ2 did it best so far.
In lotro you cant change both colors oof the armor/cloth so its good but not best
dont know for EQ2 yet
fan of SWG, XCOM, Defiance, Global Agenda, Need For Speed, all Star Wars single player games. And waiting the darn STAR CITIZEN
I am glad you said it. Although it has been said many times over again.
It's unfortunate how easy Bioware is getting off with the game they made for no reason but 'fan boys' who were committed to buying the game in 2008 before a single frame of gameplay footage was released.
The entire thing is exemplary of a simple psychological phenomenon referred to as "cognitive dissonance".
Very simply put, people want to believe their new “Star Wars” MMO is the greatest thing to ever grace the world, yet they see the gameplay footage, and the “features” that Bioware has presented and it’s completely contradictory. So instead of giving up their belief that SWTOR is the greatest game there will ever be, they change their opinions and change the way they act.
For example, very few people ever say “I came to this MMO for a story”. They found out this is essentially all you get in SWTOR, all of a sudden, “Story is the number one thing I look for in a MMO”.
They demanded space combat, yet found out Bioware botched that, and presented that their space combat system is modeled after a game on the Nintendo 64, an unprecedented amount of people immediately claimed “space combat on rails is perfect”.
Very simply, had you asked the same people who are hyping the features presented by Bioware, say in 2008 before any of the features were announced, the vast majority would present completely contradictory opinions and views.
As for the story….
MMORPGs are essentially competitive games. That is what drives them. They are never difficult, or require much skill, until you start competing.
Now tell me, are you going to spend 30 minutes listening to some hologram jabber on about some Tuskens who captured a colleague’s speeder while your competitors are skipping it and shooting to the top?
Are you going to want to stand and listen to or read an hour long story behind some raid you are about to start that takes over 6 hours to complete?
Please do. Please know, I will be the guy 100 hours ahead of you in actual gameplay tearing you apart when you finally make it into a PVP instance.
When you are grouped up with 5 friends, are they going to sit there and wait for you while you say “no wait I want to hear this EPIC story”.
Seriously, “story” does not belong in an MMO beyond the simple, “these are the bad guys, these are the good guys, good luck”.
Fact that Bioware has made it completely obvious the only real thing they put into the game that required their staggering 200million + budget and five years of development is a story, ensures their failure.
As for gameplay… It’s a copy of WoW. It’s a Copy of EQ. What ever you want to say. It’s a theme park.
Unfortunately for the investors, Bioware used over 200 million dollars to make a themepark MMO, when the most money ever dedicated to a budgeted themepark MMO before was 80 million.
SWTOR is going to make SWG look like the best game ever.
SWG had a seemingly endless number of different class combinations. SWG had the most dynamic crafting system in the history of any game. SWG had PVE that was actually difficult and rewarding (Jedi preCU). It’s wasn’t a “OMFG I have to run this boring ass instance again, so that I can get this piece of armor so that I am not one shot again in PVP”. It was, “I want to play a fucking Jedi, I have to fucking earn it”.
SWTOR, you find random “materials” lying around the map. You craft one item, and there is NO!!!!!!! customization to that crafted item (identical to WoW).
WoW forced players who wanted to play to remain subscribed for a month, by constantly adding “new” raids. Forcing the bar up with hardcore games who picked up the new items, and essentially pushed anybody who didn’t run the instances out of PVP or pushed you into an instance to get it yourself just to compete.
WoW (and SWTOR now, because they copied this mechanic in every aspect), you didn’t setout to get items because you wanted them. You setout to get them to compete with the hardcore 16 hour a day gamers, who did get them. It wasn’t difficult, to get the items, it just forced you to stay subscribed for another month to get it with weekly lockouts.
SWG didn’t manipulate their players.
If you wanted the new content, you had to earn it. You had to unlock your force sensitive slot. Then you had to level it up, with the risk of being seen with a light saber out and hunted. Had you been killed 5 times, guess what. You had to start your jedi over.
SWG had real space combat. Highly customizable ships. You could fly an endless number of ships. Guess what…. In SWTOR, you get to “fly” one. Fantastic story. “I was born and my entire ‘life’ is a linear fantasy that locks me out of every thing after I complete it so I have to wait a month to get the item I could get in 2 days because THE GAME IS EASY”.
Their items weren’t “ok, so you need to run this instance 20 times to get the new gear btw, you can only run it once a day”. It was, go see these crafters who dedicated their gameplay, and a substantial amount of time and effort to making these items the best they could be.
SWTOR is trying to manipulate their subscribers using the same technique WoW does. Make everything in the game either given to you at lvl one, not in the game at all (legit space), or only attainable by running an instance 20 times (btw, you can only run it once a week HAHAHA, thanks for staying subscribed for another month).
For that simple reason, I am not only expecting SWTOR to fail in epic capacity. I honestly hope Bioware bankrupts. I truly hope the gaming community uses Bioware as an example of what should happen to Gaming companies who set out to make a GAME that sets out, not to be the best game it can be (clearly not what Bioware is doing here), but to manipulate their customers to make more money.
We all know TOR won't fail as the game will sell like hot cakes at launch. The real question being how long will players stay subscibed? That worries me more because I know it means devs would be fired pretty fast. EA isn't as kind as BioWare on that matter.
The good thing with BioWare/LA take is it leaves room for another SW mmo, either a FPS one (like the BatteFront that was put on hold) or a SWG 2. Actually I would say SWG 3: a mix of theme park + sand box elements. Hopefully we would get a real 3D shooter be it as deep as X-Wing of light as BF ones, a good crafting system, the feeling of a living world, and around all this a great community.
We can predit the population behavior in TOR won't be as good as what it was on SWG nor even up to what it was on LotRo. I just hope we'll get a /ignore_account function.
P.S: Good post, nice to see not everyone likes to be spoon fed.
We can predit the population behavior in TOR won't be as good as what it was on SWG nor even up to what it was on LotRo. I just hope we'll get a /ignore_account function.
P.S: Good post, nice to see not everyone likes to be spoon fed.
I knew you'd agree with him, of course everyone that doesn't agree with people like how you think is spoonfed, makes perfect sense, just forget reality and history and the success from themepark styled MMO's above sandbox MMO's
I don't know about how it was in SWG, but if SWG fans on these forums are any indication... well, I personally doubt that SWG community was that good and friendly back then and sounds like rosy glasses to me, or else those people have changed a LOT over the years and become a lot more bitter, vindictive and downright hateful regarding the MMO scene than they used to be. But hey, maybe you're right. I can recall that the first years in EQ, DAoC and UO communities in general really were different.
As for server communities, in general the RP servers are the best for that, most constructive and interesting communities in my experience.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
We can predit the population behavior in TOR won't be as good as what it was on SWG nor even up to what it was on LotRo. I just hope we'll get a /ignore_account function.
P.S: Good post, nice to see not everyone likes to be spoon fed.
I knew you'd agree with him, of course everyone that doesn't agree with people like how you think is spoonfed, makes perfect sense, just forget reality and history and the success from themepark styled MMO's above sandbox MMO's
Rubbish, isn't EvE like the second most popular p2p MMO right now? Sandbox and unforgiving as ever? Many people don't like to be spoon fed.
Rubbish, isn't EvE like the second most popular p2p MMO right now? Sandbox and unforgiving as ever? Many people don't like to be spoon fed.
Shrug. The MMO genre is a wide genre with MMO's that caters to all kinds of tastes. 11 million of WoW players is quite a lot more than 350k EVE players. Scrap both of these 2, and the total of players in other sandbox MMORPG's probably doesn't even make it to 100k, compared with millions of players in themepark MMO's.
There's enough room in the MMO market for all kinds of MMORPG's to be successful, sandbox, themepark or otherwise because MMO gamers like playing different kinds of MMO's, themepark, sandbox, hybrid, MMOFPS, MMORTS, you name it.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
We can predit the population behavior in TOR won't be as good as what it was on SWG nor even up to what it was on LotRo. I just hope we'll get a /ignore_account function.
P.S: Good post, nice to see not everyone likes to be spoon fed.
I knew you'd agree with him, of course everyone that doesn't agree with people like how you think is spoonfed, makes perfect sense, just forget reality and history and the success from themepark styled MMO's above sandbox MMO's
Rubbish, isn't EvE like the second most popular p2p MMO right now? Sandbox and unforgiving as ever? Many people don't like to be spoon fed.
I have nothing against casual gamers. Funny thing I met so many of them in SWG that become even more hardcore than I was but they where hardcore entertaining people in cantinas or crafting. Some even never used a weapon in the game.
We can predit the population behavior in TOR won't be as good as what it was on SWG nor even up to what it was on LotRo. I just hope we'll get a /ignore_account function.
P.S: Good post, nice to see not everyone likes to be spoon fed.
I knew you'd agree with him, of course everyone that doesn't agree with people like how you think is spoonfed, makes perfect sense, just forget reality and history and the success from themepark styled MMO's above sandbox MMO's
Rubbish, isn't EvE like the second most popular p2p MMO right now? Sandbox and unforgiving as ever? Many people don't like to be spoon fed.
Off course Eve is just one sandbox game and there are dozens of MMOs out there that are successful to varying degrees, most of them themeparks. Eve does give something that very few MMOs do give you though, a fully fledge space game in a SciFi universe instead of fantasy, which is most likely what has such a big draw. Unfortunately in order to play it, if you want to get anywhere, you have to make it your second job in life. I can see why people would like it, but after my job, I had more to worry about in the realm of a wife, kids, and house so Eve took a back seat and it's "un-casual-friendliness" made it very hard to enjoy for me. I can see why some people would like it, but I can also see why it will always be a niche game as well.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
EVE is third by a wide margin, possibly forth at this point but Trion needs to publish some more conclusive population numbers.
WoW is still king gorilla with 11mil+ subs, probably 3-5mil of those being western (us/eu) subs.
Aion is second with somewhere around 1.5-2mil western subs.
Then we see a massive drop down in overall volume.
EVE was last reported at around the 375-400k sub range.
I'd bet Rift is actually sustaining a very similar playerbase as well, 3-400k from their 1 million box-sell through.
Beyond all that, SW:TOR will most likely unseat Aion within a week of its launch and take the solid #2 spot for a while.
It'll crush any numbers SWG may have made, it'll probably become the best inital-selling SW game ever.
People will buy and play just because its Star Wars. They'll buy and play because it's Bioware.
They'll buy and play because the SW fantasies the majority of the potential playerbase have usually involve being Jedi, or Han Solo types, or Boba Fett's.
I know I'm not going to play TOR for other reasons, namely I just don't like how ranged attacks look/feel for the smuggler/bounty hunter types.
But just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's not going to explode the minute it hits the market. People are going to buy that game up, and unlike SWG, most will probably stick it out past the first month or two.
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
Unfortunately in order to play it, if you want to get anywhere, you have to make it your second job in life. I can see why people would like it, but after my job, I had more to worry about in the realm of a wife, kids, and house so Eve took a back seat and it's "un-casual-friendliness" made it very hard to enjoy for me. I can see why some people would like it, but I can also see why it will always be a niche game as well.
I think that this is actually exactly what many sandbox fans are looking for in an MMORPG, they want their MMORPG be sort of a second job or second life for many years, not just a game, but sort of an alternate life or lifestyle that you can fully occupy yourself with or dedicate yourself on.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
We can predit the population behavior in TOR won't be as good as what it was on SWG nor even up to what it was on LotRo. I just hope we'll get a /ignore_account function.
P.S: Good post, nice to see not everyone likes to be spoon fed.
I knew you'd agree with him, of course everyone that doesn't agree with people like how you think is spoonfed, makes perfect sense, just forget reality and history and the success from themepark styled MMO's above sandbox MMO's
Rubbish, isn't EvE like the second most popular p2p MMO right now? Sandbox and unforgiving as ever? Many people don't like to be spoon fed.
No, it's not. In fact it's possibly not even in the top 5 for P2P MMOs in terms of subs. Unless you count multiple account users in which case, it still won't matter cause just about every MMO has those now.
No, it's not. In fact it's possibly not even in the top 5 for P2P MMOs in terms of subs. Unless you count multiple account users in which case, it still won't matter cause just about every MMO has those now.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am glad you said it. Although it has been said many times over again.
It's unfortunate how easy Bioware is getting off with the game they made for no reason but 'fan boys' who were committed to buying the game in 2008 before a single frame of gameplay footage was released.
The entire thing is exemplary of a simple psychological phenomenon referred to as "cognitive dissonance".
Very simply put, people want to believe their new “Star Wars” MMO is the greatest thing to ever grace the world, yet they see the gameplay footage, and the “features” that Bioware has presented and it’s completely contradictory. So instead of giving up their belief that SWTOR is the greatest game there will ever be, they change their opinions and change the way they act.
For example, very few people ever say “I came to this MMO for a story”. They found out this is essentially all you get in SWTOR, all of a sudden, “Story is the number one thing I look for in a MMO”.
They demanded space combat, yet found out Bioware botched that, and presented that their space combat system is modeled after a game on the Nintendo 64, an unprecedented amount of people immediately claimed “space combat on rails is perfect”.
Very simply, had you asked the same people who are hyping the features presented by Bioware, say in 2008 before any of the features were announced, the vast majority would present completely contradictory opinions and views.
As for the story….
MMORPGs are essentially competitive games. That is what drives them. They are never difficult, or require much skill, until you start competing.
Now tell me, are you going to spend 30 minutes listening to some hologram jabber on about some Tuskens who captured a colleague’s speeder while your competitors are skipping it and shooting to the top?
Are you going to want to stand and listen to or read an hour long story behind some raid you are about to start that takes over 6 hours to complete?
Please do. Please know, I will be the guy 100 hours ahead of you in actual gameplay tearing you apart when you finally make it into a PVP instance.
When you are grouped up with 5 friends, are they going to sit there and wait for you while you say “no wait I want to hear this EPIC story”.
Seriously, “story” does not belong in an MMO beyond the simple, “these are the bad guys, these are the good guys, good luck”.
Fact that Bioware has made it completely obvious the only real thing they put into the game that required their staggering 200million + budget and five years of development is a story, ensures their failure.
As for gameplay… It’s a copy of WoW. It’s a Copy of EQ. What ever you want to say. It’s a theme park.
Unfortunately for the investors, Bioware used over 200 million dollars to make a themepark MMO, when the most money ever dedicated to a budgeted themepark MMO before was 80 million.
SWTOR is going to make SWG look like the best game ever.
SWG had a seemingly endless number of different class combinations. SWG had the most dynamic crafting system in the history of any game. SWG had PVE that was actually difficult and rewarding (Jedi preCU). It’s wasn’t a “OMFG I have to run this boring ass instance again, so that I can get this piece of armor so that I am not one shot again in PVP”. It was, “I want to play a fucking Jedi, I have to fucking earn it”.
SWTOR, you find random “materials” lying around the map. You craft one item, and there is NO!!!!!!! customization to that crafted item (identical to WoW).
WoW forced players who wanted to play to remain subscribed for a month, by constantly adding “new” raids. Forcing the bar up with hardcore games who picked up the new items, and essentially pushed anybody who didn’t run the instances out of PVP or pushed you into an instance to get it yourself just to compete.
WoW (and SWTOR now, because they copied this mechanic in every aspect), you didn’t setout to get items because you wanted them. You setout to get them to compete with the hardcore 16 hour a day gamers, who did get them. It wasn’t difficult, to get the items, it just forced you to stay subscribed for another month to get it with weekly lockouts.
SWG didn’t manipulate their players.
If you wanted the new content, you had to earn it. You had to unlock your force sensitive slot. Then you had to level it up, with the risk of being seen with a light saber out and hunted. Had you been killed 5 times, guess what. You had to start your jedi over.
SWG had real space combat. Highly customizable ships. You could fly an endless number of ships. Guess what…. In SWTOR, you get to “fly” one. Fantastic story. “I was born and my entire ‘life’ is a linear fantasy that locks me out of every thing after I complete it so I have to wait a month to get the item I could get in 2 days because THE GAME IS EASY”.
Their items weren’t “ok, so you need to run this instance 20 times to get the new gear btw, you can only run it once a day”. It was, go see these crafters who dedicated their gameplay, and a substantial amount of time and effort to making these items the best they could be.
SWTOR is trying to manipulate their subscribers using the same technique WoW does. Make everything in the game either given to you at lvl one, not in the game at all (legit space), or only attainable by running an instance 20 times (btw, you can only run it once a week HAHAHA, thanks for staying subscribed for another month).
For that simple reason, I am not only expecting SWTOR to fail in epic capacity. I honestly hope Bioware bankrupts. I truly hope the gaming community uses Bioware as an example of what should happen to Gaming companies who set out to make a GAME that sets out, not to be the best game it can be (clearly not what Bioware is doing here), but to manipulate their customers to make more money.
I was there for the first year of SWG and the most ironic thing about this post, is THIS is the exact kind of bitter and crabby behavior that made SOE decide to dump their current toxic population in favor of drawing in new blood with their crapy NGE. Before the arguments start, SOE would have tried their asses off to persuade their current population they needed to move in this new direction if they wanted them to hang around, rather than as they did and roll the NGE out like a thief in the night. And then once the outrage began the Dev staff gloated and postured instead of trying to create calm among the pissed off vets. The vets made themselves so obnoxious that SOE decided to scrape them off their shoe.
Now that doesn't justify the most dirty and underhanded, not to mention downright supidest, game re-write in MMO history, but these damn grouchy vets need to wake up to the fact they hold a big part of the blame for the decision being made.
It also makes me laugh that these people tend to forget all the problems we had to put up with during the so called good old days. First, so much broken and unfinished crap at launch. Then while you COULD, try every class combo you liked, people still stuck to the FOTM PVP builds. Which caused much wailing and nashing of teeth about balance, not to mention massive nerfing. Anyone remember Pokemon syndrome, commandos being superbad, combat medics insane poison/disease range, not to mention damnge, emperial faction pets being way overpowered compared to rebels, all of the various BH, carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, continuous knockdown, stun, bleed attacks, turning PVP into a sick joke. Same with polearm masters. Also remember how the game became the war of the buffs, where those with doc/food buffs got an instant win against those without?
And last but not least that wonderful intricate crafting that EVERYONE AFK macroed through because the skill up was so damn tedious. Of course a master craftsman was prety neat, but thanks to SOEs greed you could only have one toon per server so a crafter couldn't do anything else. They either had to buy a second account or leave their guild behind and play another toon on a seperate server. Way too many of my master craftsman friends either left game due to boredom or dumped all their hard work to chase the insanely boring jedi grind.
In short, while I feel SWG had some pretty brilliant ideas, the continuous flaws in their execution, combined with a rather snotty and unforgiving fan base, ruined the game.
So to those of you who want to live in your rose tinted dreams about your great lost game, that is your choice. But don't try to tell those of us who saw it differently, that your ideas of what makes a good game is the only choice there is.
And as to SWTOR failing? You of all people who have watched SWG survive even when it seemed like SOE themselves were trying to kill the game, should be smarter than that. Don't make the mistake of thinking what you wish to be true for actual truth. You couldn't kill the game that rejected you and then went on to do its damnedest to kill itself. You most certainly can't harm this new beast.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
No, it's not. In fact it's possibly not even in the top 5 for P2P MMOs in terms of subs. Unless you count multiple account users in which case, it still won't matter cause just about every MMO has those now.
I was there for the first year of SWG and the most ironic thing about this post, is THIS is the exact kind of bitter and crabby behavior that made SOE decide to dump their current toxic population in favor of drawing in new blood with their crapy NGE. Before the arguments start, SOE would have tried their asses off to persuade their current population they needed to move in this new direction if they wanted them to hang around, rather than as they did and roll the NGE out like a thief in the night. And then once the outrage began the Dev staff gloated and postured instead of trying to create calm among the pissed off vets. The vets made themselves so obnoxious that SOE decided to scrape them off their shoe.
Now that doesn't justify the most dirty and underhanded, not to mention downright supidest, game re-write in MMO history, but these damn grouchy vets need to wake up to the fact they hold a big part of the blame for the decision being made.
It also makes me laugh that these people tend to forget all the problems we had to put up with during the so called good old days. First, so much broken and unfinished crap at launch. Then while you COULD, try every class combo you liked, people still stuck to the FOTM PVP builds. Which caused much wailing and nashing of teeth about balance, not to mention massive nerfing. Anyone remember Pokemon syndrome, commandos being superbad, combat medics insane poison/disease range, not to mention damnge, emperial faction pets being way overpowered compared to rebels, all of the various BH, carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, continuous knockdown, stun, bleed attacks, turning PVP into a sick joke. Same with polearm masters. Also remember how the game became the war of the buffs, where those with doc/food buffs got an instant win against those without?
And last but not least that wonderful intricate crafting that EVERYONE AFK macroed through because the skill up was so damn tedious. Of course a master craftsman was prety neat, but thanks to SOEs greed you could only have one toon per server so a crafter couldn't do anything else. They either had to buy a second account or leave their guild behind and play another toon on a seperate server. Way too many of my master craftsman friends either left game due to boredom or dumped all their hard work to chase the insanly boring jedi grind.
In short, while I feel SWG had some pretty brilliant ideas, the continuous flaws in their exicution, combined with a rather snotty and unforgiving fan base, ruined the game.
So to those of you who want to live in your rose tinted dreams about your great lost game, that is your choice. But don't try to tell those of us who saw it differently, that your ideas of what makes a good game is the only choice there is.
And as to SWTOR failing? You of all people who have watched SWG survive even when it seemed like SOE themselves were trying to kill the game, should be smarter than that. Don't make the mistake of thinking what you wish to be true for actual truth. You couldn't kill the game that rejected you and then went on to do its damnedest to kill itself. You most certainly can't harm this new beast.
Sure SWG has 'survive' but you know as well I do that it had failed as Star wars MMO the moment NGE. From what I heard about empty servers and closed server there is no way it has even the 1/3 of the number of players it had. Now I won't say that SWG was a prefect or even great game but when it came it had a base of a great and fun game. If SOE wouldn't have been intent on changing the game and would have actually tried to fix it, I firmly believe that it would still be succesful and not limping long like it is.
Now can we stop pointing out how SOE contuines to beat the dead horse that is SWG?
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
I was there for the first year of SWG and the most ironic thing about this post, is THIS is the exact kind of bitter and crabby behavior that made SOE decide to dump their current toxic population in favor of drawing in new blood with their crapy NGE. Before the arguments start, SOE would have tried their asses off to persuade their current population they needed to move in this new direction if they wanted them to hang around, rather than as they did and roll the NGE out like a thief in the night. And then once the outrage began the Dev staff gloated and postured instead of trying to create calm among the pissed off vets. The vets made themselves so obnoxious that SOE decided to scrape them off their shoe.
Now that doesn't justify the most dirty and underhanded, not to mention downright supidest, game re-write in MMO history, but these damn grouchy vets need to wake up to the fact they hold a big part of the blame for the decision being made.
It also makes me laugh that these people tend to forget all the problems we had to put up with during the so called good old days. First, so much broken and unfinished crap at launch. Then while you COULD, try every class combo you liked, people still stuck to the FOTM PVP builds. Which caused much wailing and nashing of teeth about balance, not to mention massive nerfing. Anyone remember Pokemon syndrome, commandos being superbad, combat medics insane poison/disease range, not to mention damnge, emperial faction pets being way overpowered compared to rebels, all of the various BH, carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, continuous knockdown, stun, bleed attacks, turning PVP into a sick joke. Same with polearm masters. Also remember how the game became the war of the buffs, where those with doc/food buffs got an instant win against those without?
And last but not least that wonderful intricate crafting that EVERYONE AFK macroed through because the skill up was so damn tedious. Of course a master craftsman was prety neat, but thanks to SOEs greed you could only have one toon per server so a crafter couldn't do anything else. They either had to buy a second account or leave their guild behind and play another toon on a seperate server. Way too many of my master craftsman friends either left game due to boredom or dumped all their hard work to chase the insanly boring jedi grind.
In short, while I feel SWG had some pretty brilliant ideas, the continuous flaws in their exicution, combined with a rather snotty and unforgiving fan base, ruined the game.
So to those of you who want to live in your rose tinted dreams about your great lost game, that is your choice. But don't try to tell those of us who saw it differently, that your ideas of what makes a good game is the only choice there is.
And as to SWTOR failing? You of all people who have watched SWG survive even when it seemed like SOE themselves were trying to kill the game, should be smarter than that. Don't make the mistake of thinking what you wish to be true for actual truth. You couldn't kill the game that rejected you and then went on to do its damnedest to kill itself. You most certainly can't harm this new beast.
Sure SWG has 'survive' but you know as well I do that it had failed as Star wars MMO the moment NGE. From what I heard about empty servers and closed server there is no way it has even the 1/3 of the number of players it had. Now I won't say that SWG was a prefect or even great game but when it came it had a base of a great and fun game. If SOE wouldn't have been intent on changing the game and would have actually tried to fix it, I firmly believe that it would still be succesful and not limping long like it is.
Now can we stop pointing out how SOE contuines to beat the dead horse that is SWG?
SWG was and sill is the most flawed and bugged game I ever palyed.
However Pre-Cu SWG is still the game that has the most potential. it coult have lasted 20 years, really.
Sure SWG has 'survive' but you know as well I do that it had failed as Star wars MMO the moment NGE. From what I heard about empty servers and closed server there is no way it has even the 1/3 of the number of players it had. Now I won't say that SWG was a prefect or even great game but when it came it had a base of a great and fun game. If SOE wouldn't have been intent on changing the game and would have actually tried to fix it, I firmly believe that it would still be succesful and not limping long like it is.
Now can we stop pointing out how SOE contuines to beat the dead horse that is SWG?
A not impossible possibility, but I counter that if SWGs own playerbase hadn't been such obnoxious crybaby wankers to the dev staff (and yes many of the dev staff were just as guilty of the obnoxious wanker behavior on the forums), we may have never had the CU and the NGE. But those are just our opinions and sadly neither of us will ever get to see if we were right or not.
As to beating a dead horse. If disgruntled vets will quit judging this game on how it isn't SWG2, and focus on what it is, (a themepark Star Wars game), I'm more than happy to drop the subject.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Comments
The biggest advantage of B2P and F2P games is that you can keep a P2P game running next to them, while switching between playing them for variety.
I think what works best is a F2P hybrid model, or C2P (choose 2 pay) or 'gaming a la carte', where you can adjust the amount you'll pay for a game based upon the time you think you'll spend playing it in a week or month, the current models are all too rigid, not a la carte enough yet.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am glad you said it. Although it has been said many times over again.
It's unfortunate how easy Bioware is getting off with the game they made for no reason but 'fan boys' who were committed to buying the game in 2008 before a single frame of gameplay footage was released.
The entire thing is exemplary of a simple psychological phenomenon referred to as "cognitive dissonance".
Very simply put, people want to believe their new “Star Wars” MMO is the greatest thing to ever grace the world, yet they see the gameplay footage, and the “features” that Bioware has presented and it’s completely contradictory. So instead of giving up their belief that SWTOR is the greatest game there will ever be, they change their opinions and change the way they act.
For example, very few people ever say “I came to this MMO for a story”. They found out this is essentially all you get in SWTOR, all of a sudden, “Story is the number one thing I look for in a MMO”.
They demanded space combat, yet found out Bioware botched that, and presented that their space combat system is modeled after a game on the Nintendo 64, an unprecedented amount of people immediately claimed “space combat on rails is perfect”.
Very simply, had you asked the same people who are hyping the features presented by Bioware, say in 2008 before any of the features were announced, the vast majority would present completely contradictory opinions and views.
As for the story….
MMORPGs are essentially competitive games. That is what drives them. They are never difficult, or require much skill, until you start competing.
Now tell me, are you going to spend 30 minutes listening to some hologram jabber on about some Tuskens who captured a colleague’s speeder while your competitors are skipping it and shooting to the top?
Are you going to want to stand and listen to or read an hour long story behind some raid you are about to start that takes over 6 hours to complete?
Please do. Please know, I will be the guy 100 hours ahead of you in actual gameplay tearing you apart when you finally make it into a PVP instance.
When you are grouped up with 5 friends, are they going to sit there and wait for you while you say “no wait I want to hear this EPIC story”.
Seriously, “story” does not belong in an MMO beyond the simple, “these are the bad guys, these are the good guys, good luck”.
Fact that Bioware has made it completely obvious the only real thing they put into the game that required their staggering 200million + budget and five years of development is a story, ensures their failure.
As for gameplay… It’s a copy of WoW. It’s a Copy of EQ. What ever you want to say. It’s a theme park.
Unfortunately for the investors, Bioware used over 200 million dollars to make a themepark MMO, when the most money ever dedicated to a budgeted themepark MMO before was 80 million.
SWTOR is going to make SWG look like the best game ever.
SWG had a seemingly endless number of different class combinations. SWG had the most dynamic crafting system in the history of any game. SWG had PVE that was actually difficult and rewarding (Jedi preCU). It’s wasn’t a “OMFG I have to run this boring ass instance again, so that I can get this piece of armor so that I am not one shot again in PVP”. It was, “I want to play a fucking Jedi, I have to fucking earn it”.
SWTOR, you find random “materials” lying around the map. You craft one item, and there is NO!!!!!!! customization to that crafted item (identical to WoW).
WoW forced players who wanted to play to remain subscribed for a month, by constantly adding “new” raids. Forcing the bar up with hardcore games who picked up the new items, and essentially pushed anybody who didn’t run the instances out of PVP or pushed you into an instance to get it yourself just to compete.
WoW (and SWTOR now, because they copied this mechanic in every aspect), you didn’t setout to get items because you wanted them. You setout to get them to compete with the hardcore 16 hour a day gamers, who did get them. It wasn’t difficult, to get the items, it just forced you to stay subscribed for another month to get it with weekly lockouts.
SWG didn’t manipulate their players.
If you wanted the new content, you had to earn it. You had to unlock your force sensitive slot. Then you had to level it up, with the risk of being seen with a light saber out and hunted. Had you been killed 5 times, guess what. You had to start your jedi over.
SWG had real space combat. Highly customizable ships. You could fly an endless number of ships. Guess what…. In SWTOR, you get to “fly” one. Fantastic story. “I was born and my entire ‘life’ is a linear fantasy that locks me out of every thing after I complete it so I have to wait a month to get the item I could get in 2 days because THE GAME IS EASY”.
Their items weren’t “ok, so you need to run this instance 20 times to get the new gear btw, you can only run it once a day”. It was, go see these crafters who dedicated their gameplay, and a substantial amount of time and effort to making these items the best they could be.
SWTOR is trying to manipulate their subscribers using the same technique WoW does. Make everything in the game either given to you at lvl one, not in the game at all (legit space), or only attainable by running an instance 20 times (btw, you can only run it once a week HAHAHA, thanks for staying subscribed for another month).
For that simple reason, I am not only expecting SWTOR to fail in epic capacity. I honestly hope Bioware bankrupts. I truly hope the gaming community uses Bioware as an example of what should happen to Gaming companies who set out to make a GAME that sets out, not to be the best game it can be (clearly not what Bioware is doing here), but to manipulate their customers to make more money.
This is a good example of some one completely out of touch with what the general MMO player wants and is just spouting 'facts' that he has no means to back up, 200 million to make? can you back that up?
30 minutes about Tuskens, an hour for raiding stories? you are simply talking rubbish now
There Is Always Hope!
Wishful thinking in my mind to think the story in TOR is going to compare favorably to DA, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate or the like. Seems more like DA2 from what I've heard so far. It sounds overly drawn out and not very interesting from what the people who have played it have said. You spend like 10 times as much as you should on semi-significant story element. That said, it is more the uninspired combat that makes me disinterested in TOR...it is just about as anti-lore as you can get.
It's bad form, btw, to declare that someone who is saying they dislike the game is going to end up playing it. You have no way of knowing that. It seems rather unrealistic to expect everyone to like the game, especially people who pretty clearly want to play something quite different.
Meh, I started to respond with sound arguments, but then read the whole post and thought 'why bother'. Just another sandbox fanatic who is that extreme that he feels that the only way that he can enjoy the games that he wants is the destruction of all other games and game companies that he feels interferes with his desire, no matter that other MMO gamers enjoy that kind of games. I bet he's of the same kind of people that scorns and ridicules the 10+ million WoW players for having the audicity of liking a game that he despises or that doesn't belong to a type that he feels should be on top of the MMO genre
Funnily enough, those people that hate games have a tendency to post more in threads of games they hate or dislike than that they post in threads of games they do like. If I clearly wanted to play something quite different, I wouldn't keep hanging around forums of games I dislike or have no interest in playing.
I'd say it's also bad form to accuse fans or people interested in a game as being 'fanbois' that would be playing the game anyway no matter anyway before even a screen footage was released, nor is it good form to wish for the destruction and bankruptcy of a game company for the simplest of reasons that they're making a game that someone that wishes for their destruction doesn't like. Or do you just want to scold on proponents of the game and not the opponent/critic of the game that he was replying on and who was acting equally in bad form?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
1. I've looked over videos, descriptions, and read what people had to say about story gameplay. Seems a lot more like DA2 than the others. It doesn't change much, there's rail roading, you spend a lot of time doing relatively meaningless drivel, it's dragged out, etc. The fact that the VA is good and whatnot doesn't change that. Not saying it is horrible, just saying that like DA2 if you are expecting something on the order of DA:O, KOTOR, or the like then you will very likely be quite disappointed (of course individual mileage may vary).
2. Well, I rarely post in this forum. I post more on the GW2 semi-official forums (the GW2 forum on MMORPG isn't that interesting). I don't post at all on the TOR forums. Occasionally I see a TOR thread in the recently posted section and I make a comment. I can't speak for others, but I imagine occasional some folk feel they have something to get off their chest; they are entitled to that.
3. Honestly I skimmed over just half of his post (random parts). It's clear he would rather play SWG2, which TOR was never going to be. Fair enough, he's entitled to his thoughts. Sure, I agree that calling people "fanbois" and demanding a company go bankrupt is bad form too, though I didn't notice him saying that (again, the skimming). Let's not jump to conclusions about people.
I agree, fair enough.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
if you check the list in this site you will surprised how many are b2p
In lotro you cant change both colors oof the armor/cloth so its good but not best
dont know for EQ2 yet
We all know TOR won't fail as the game will sell like hot cakes at launch. The real question being how long will players stay subscibed? That worries me more because I know it means devs would be fired pretty fast. EA isn't as kind as BioWare on that matter.
The good thing with BioWare/LA take is it leaves room for another SW mmo, either a FPS one (like the BatteFront that was put on hold) or a SWG 2. Actually I would say SWG 3: a mix of theme park + sand box elements. Hopefully we would get a real 3D shooter be it as deep as X-Wing of light as BF ones, a good crafting system, the feeling of a living world, and around all this a great community.
We can predit the population behavior in TOR won't be as good as what it was on SWG nor even up to what it was on LotRo. I just hope we'll get a /ignore_account function.
P.S: Good post, nice to see not everyone likes to be spoon fed.
I knew you'd agree with him, of course everyone that doesn't agree with people like how you think is spoonfed, makes perfect sense, just forget reality and history and the success from themepark styled MMO's above sandbox MMO's
I don't know about how it was in SWG, but if SWG fans on these forums are any indication... well, I personally doubt that SWG community was that good and friendly back then and sounds like rosy glasses to me, or else those people have changed a LOT over the years and become a lot more bitter, vindictive and downright hateful regarding the MMO scene than they used to be. But hey, maybe you're right. I can recall that the first years in EQ, DAoC and UO communities in general really were different.
As for server communities, in general the RP servers are the best for that, most constructive and interesting communities in my experience.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Rubbish, isn't EvE like the second most popular p2p MMO right now? Sandbox and unforgiving as ever? Many people don't like to be spoon fed.
Shrug. The MMO genre is a wide genre with MMO's that caters to all kinds of tastes. 11 million of WoW players is quite a lot more than 350k EVE players. Scrap both of these 2, and the total of players in other sandbox MMORPG's probably doesn't even make it to 100k, compared with millions of players in themepark MMO's.
There's enough room in the MMO market for all kinds of MMORPG's to be successful, sandbox, themepark or otherwise because MMO gamers like playing different kinds of MMO's, themepark, sandbox, hybrid, MMOFPS, MMORTS, you name it.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have nothing against casual gamers. Funny thing I met so many of them in SWG that become even more hardcore than I was but they where hardcore entertaining people in cantinas or crafting. Some even never used a weapon in the game.
Off course Eve is just one sandbox game and there are dozens of MMOs out there that are successful to varying degrees, most of them themeparks. Eve does give something that very few MMOs do give you though, a fully fledge space game in a SciFi universe instead of fantasy, which is most likely what has such a big draw. Unfortunately in order to play it, if you want to get anywhere, you have to make it your second job in life. I can see why people would like it, but after my job, I had more to worry about in the realm of a wife, kids, and house so Eve took a back seat and it's "un-casual-friendliness" made it very hard to enjoy for me. I can see why some people would like it, but I can also see why it will always be a niche game as well.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
EVE is third by a wide margin, possibly forth at this point but Trion needs to publish some more conclusive population numbers.
WoW is still king gorilla with 11mil+ subs, probably 3-5mil of those being western (us/eu) subs.
Aion is second with somewhere around 1.5-2mil western subs.
Then we see a massive drop down in overall volume.
EVE was last reported at around the 375-400k sub range.
I'd bet Rift is actually sustaining a very similar playerbase as well, 3-400k from their 1 million box-sell through.
Beyond all that, SW:TOR will most likely unseat Aion within a week of its launch and take the solid #2 spot for a while.
It'll crush any numbers SWG may have made, it'll probably become the best inital-selling SW game ever.
People will buy and play just because its Star Wars. They'll buy and play because it's Bioware.
They'll buy and play because the SW fantasies the majority of the potential playerbase have usually involve being Jedi, or Han Solo types, or Boba Fett's.
I know I'm not going to play TOR for other reasons, namely I just don't like how ranged attacks look/feel for the smuggler/bounty hunter types.
But just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's not going to explode the minute it hits the market. People are going to buy that game up, and unlike SWG, most will probably stick it out past the first month or two.
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
I think that this is actually exactly what many sandbox fans are looking for in an MMORPG, they want their MMORPG be sort of a second job or second life for many years, not just a game, but sort of an alternate life or lifestyle that you can fully occupy yourself with or dedicate yourself on.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It's also 4 years old...
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
...
a top 10 list from 2007 doesn't count...
Aion is I think the 2nd most populated P2P MMO right now.
And right now Rift is 3rd.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I was there for the first year of SWG and the most ironic thing about this post, is THIS is the exact kind of bitter and crabby behavior that made SOE decide to dump their current toxic population in favor of drawing in new blood with their crapy NGE. Before the arguments start, SOE would have tried their asses off to persuade their current population they needed to move in this new direction if they wanted them to hang around, rather than as they did and roll the NGE out like a thief in the night. And then once the outrage began the Dev staff gloated and postured instead of trying to create calm among the pissed off vets. The vets made themselves so obnoxious that SOE decided to scrape them off their shoe.
Now that doesn't justify the most dirty and underhanded, not to mention downright supidest, game re-write in MMO history, but these damn grouchy vets need to wake up to the fact they hold a big part of the blame for the decision being made.
It also makes me laugh that these people tend to forget all the problems we had to put up with during the so called good old days. First, so much broken and unfinished crap at launch. Then while you COULD, try every class combo you liked, people still stuck to the FOTM PVP builds. Which caused much wailing and nashing of teeth about balance, not to mention massive nerfing. Anyone remember Pokemon syndrome, commandos being superbad, combat medics insane poison/disease range, not to mention damnge, emperial faction pets being way overpowered compared to rebels, all of the various BH, carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, continuous knockdown, stun, bleed attacks, turning PVP into a sick joke. Same with polearm masters. Also remember how the game became the war of the buffs, where those with doc/food buffs got an instant win against those without?
And last but not least that wonderful intricate crafting that EVERYONE AFK macroed through because the skill up was so damn tedious. Of course a master craftsman was prety neat, but thanks to SOEs greed you could only have one toon per server so a crafter couldn't do anything else. They either had to buy a second account or leave their guild behind and play another toon on a seperate server. Way too many of my master craftsman friends either left game due to boredom or dumped all their hard work to chase the insanely boring jedi grind.
In short, while I feel SWG had some pretty brilliant ideas, the continuous flaws in their execution, combined with a rather snotty and unforgiving fan base, ruined the game.
So to those of you who want to live in your rose tinted dreams about your great lost game, that is your choice. But don't try to tell those of us who saw it differently, that your ideas of what makes a good game is the only choice there is.
And as to SWTOR failing? You of all people who have watched SWG survive even when it seemed like SOE themselves were trying to kill the game, should be smarter than that. Don't make the mistake of thinking what you wish to be true for actual truth. You couldn't kill the game that rejected you and then went on to do its damnedest to kill itself. You most certainly can't harm this new beast.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Heres one from 2011
http://news.brothersoft.com/top-ten-most-populated-online-mmos-13046.html
Take it for what it's worth.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Sure SWG has 'survive' but you know as well I do that it had failed as Star wars MMO the moment NGE. From what I heard about empty servers and closed server there is no way it has even the 1/3 of the number of players it had. Now I won't say that SWG was a prefect or even great game but when it came it had a base of a great and fun game. If SOE wouldn't have been intent on changing the game and would have actually tried to fix it, I firmly believe that it would still be succesful and not limping long like it is.
Now can we stop pointing out how SOE contuines to beat the dead horse that is SWG?
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
SWG was and sill is the most flawed and bugged game I ever palyed.
However Pre-Cu SWG is still the game that has the most potential. it coult have lasted 20 years, really.
A not impossible possibility, but I counter that if SWGs own playerbase hadn't been such obnoxious crybaby wankers to the dev staff (and yes many of the dev staff were just as guilty of the obnoxious wanker behavior on the forums), we may have never had the CU and the NGE. But those are just our opinions and sadly neither of us will ever get to see if we were right or not.
As to beating a dead horse. If disgruntled vets will quit judging this game on how it isn't SWG2, and focus on what it is, (a themepark Star Wars game), I'm more than happy to drop the subject.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "