Only thing that bothers me is some of the pre-emptive reviews from people who have yet to play it. Its a solid MMO with some new ways of doing things and some improvements on old ways. Its not a re-invention of the wheel its just an improvement on the wheels we have, but if you were hoping it would be the hover board to replace your skates, well thats unfortunate.
Personally cant wait, but fully understand not everyone will like it.
Its sad to see people trash each other on these boards and in the same breath talk about how important community is in an mmo.
One can easily have fun in a game and be social in its community, while trashing others on this website I dont see ppl as that simple anyway. They can show many faces.
On topic: I agree with the OP the more I see of SWTOR the more mediocre it seems.
Off topic:
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick If no MMO had been released, people would have stuck around, maybe a gradual decrease, who knows. However, new MMO's arrived. People had a choice to stay in SWG or go to these new MMO's. These new MMO's were more popular and liked than SWG. SWG was losing sub, and it was losing subs fast before any NGE. NGE and the brusque implrementation of themepark design wasn't the reason for SWG's withering away, it was doing that already before the NGE. That was what I was saying, iirc.
Or you know... the CU or the jedi villages or the fact that SOE seemed bent on doing whatever they wanted without caring one bit what the players wanted drove off a lot of players. There were a lot of reason why people were leaving SWG after the first month I doubt they had to do with it wasn't a themepark.
Also, I know you love to say that sandbox mmos wouldn't work but Eve has a lot of subs for P2P and being in a niche genre. Till a non indie dev tries to make, market and support a character based sandbox MMO and then doesn't screw it up like EA and SOE did, we don't know how well one would do.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Only thing that bothers me is some of the pre-emptive reviews from people who have yet to play it. Its a solid MMO with some new ways of doing things and some improvements on old ways. Its not a re-invention of the wheel its just an improvement on the wheels we have, but if you were hoping it would be the hover board to replace your skates, well thats unfortunate.
Personally cant wait, but fully understand not everyone will like it.
Ok read your first sentence slowly!!!! now read the second sentence! If you cant pick up on the irony in your post let me care to elaborate.
First you say that it bothers you that people HAVN'T played SWToR yet. Then in your very next argument you call it a solid MMO. How bout you go by your very own words since you obviously havnt played either.
You fail to understand the crux of our problem from the game, we (and when I say we I mean ME) are judging the game from released information and known videos and such, and what we see is the very reason why we quit games like WoW, or at the very least are looking for the next best thing and seeing as SWToR gameplay (other then story elements) plays exactly like WoW or slightly worse according to my perspective then why should I play something thats the same albeit in a new skin. You see I want something new, innovative, and suprising from games I play.
Edit: I would also like to add there is a problem when alot and I dont know the exact numbers but there are ALOT of MMO players who only plan on picking SWToR to experience the story elements because that is obviously the only new thing it brings to the table.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
On topic: I agree with the OP the more I see of SWTOR the more mediocre it seems.
Off topic:
Or you know... the CU or the jedi villages or the fact that SOE seemed bent on doing whatever they wanted without caring one bit what the players wanted drove off a lot of players. There were a lot of reason why people were leaving SWG after the first month I doubt they had to do with it wasn't a themepark.
Also, I know you love to say that sandbox mmos wouldn't work but Eve has a lot of subs for P2P and being in a niche genre. Till a non indie dev tries to make, market and support a character based sandbox MMO and then doesn't screw it up like EA and SOE did, we don't know how well one would do.
hate to bump a thread for bumping's sakes but this times a MILLLLLLION!
I couldnt of said this any better my friend. A Niche game like Eve with its P2P subscription just screams that the sandbox model developed by a AAA studio would rival WoW. Hell it was the sandbox model that got this genre in the mainstream. I assert a MMO fantasy sandbox modeled after DAoC RvR, UO's Housing, Asherons Call Skill system, Vanguards Diplomacy and crafting with a sprinkle of WoW action orientated combat and Rift/GW2 Dynamic content would sell like gangbusters.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Or you know... the CU or the jedi villages or the fact that SOE seemed bent on doing whatever they wanted without caring one bit what the players wanted drove off a lot of players. There were a lot of reason why people were leaving SWG after the first month I doubt they had to do with it wasn't a themepark.
Also, I know you love to say that sandbox mmos wouldn't work but Eve has a lot of subs for P2P and being in a niche genre. Till a non indie dev tries to make, market and support a character based sandbox MMO and then doesn't screw it up like EA and SOE did, we don't know how well one would do.
True, just as we don't know how SWTOR will do, or how well Star Wars as a true AAA themepark MMO will do.
If you read back, then you'll see that the argument wasn't about sandbox MMO's can't work, but that Star Wars as a sandbox MMO has been tried, it wasn't the mega success that people make of it, nor was its decreasing population solely due to the NGE.
If people liked it, good for them. We've seen how Star Wars did like an AAA sandbox MMORPG. Now we'll see how Star Wars will do as an AAA themepark MMORPG. People dismissing it just because it's a themepark MMORPG that reminds them of other themepark MMO's is silly, after all it's a design model that has been strong for years now.
Mind you, like I said elsewhere, I still think that a hybrid design is the best to have for an MMORPG, but that doesn't mean that I automatically dismiss MMO's that are purely themepark or purely sandbox for the simple reason that it isn't my taste, as some here on these forums are quick to do.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
On topic: I agree with the OP the more I see of SWTOR the more mediocre it seems.
Off topic:
Or you know... the CU or the jedi villages or the fact that SOE seemed bent on doing whatever they wanted without caring one bit what the players wanted drove off a lot of players. There were a lot of reason why people were leaving SWG after the first month I doubt they had to do with it wasn't a themepark.
Also, I know you love to say that sandbox mmos wouldn't work but Eve has a lot of subs for P2P and being in a niche genre. Till a non indie dev tries to make, market and support a character based sandbox MMO and then doesn't screw it up like EA and SOE did, we don't know how well one would do.
hate to bump a thread for bumping's sakes but this times a MILLLLLLION!
I couldnt of said this any better my friend. A Niche game like Eve with its P2P subscription just screams that the sandbox model developed by a AAA studio would rival WoW. Hell it was the sandbox model that got this genre in the mainstream. I assert a MMO fantasy sandbox modeled after DAoC RvR, UO's Housing, Asherons Call Skill system, Vanguards Diplomacy and crafting with a sprinkle of WoW action orientated combat and Rift/GW2 Dynamic content would sell like gangbusters.
That sounds like ArcheAge to me.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Maybe. Maybe to some it won't be more than that. But it also has all the main themepark features that WoW, LotrO, Aion, Rift and others have, so to MMO gamers who also like to enjoy those, it'll also have other things to enjoy.
So we'll see how strong and persistent themepark gameplay will be besides a WoW, when it's done at a high quality level by another large, respected game company.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Only thing that bothers me is some of the pre-emptive reviews from people who have yet to play it. Its a solid MMO with some new ways of doing things and some improvements on old ways. Its not a re-invention of the wheel its just an improvement on the wheels we have, but if you were hoping it would be the hover board to replace your skates, well thats unfortunate.
Personally cant wait, but fully understand not everyone will like it.
Ok read your first sentence slowly!!!! now read the second sentence! If you cant pick up on the irony in your post let me care to elaborate.
First you say that it bothers you that people HAVN'T played SWToR yet. Then in your very next argument you call it a solid MMO. How bout you go by your very own words since you obviously havnt played either.
Except that the reviews, blogs, and forum posts from people who HAVE played it are pretty overwhelmingly positive. Personally I can only think of three reviews from people that did not like it and in two of them the authors said that the game was solid, just not the sandbox games they prefer and all the bashing they had for it were based on that fact alone. The third was from a self proclaimed console player that admits to not liking computer games in general. I am sure that there may be a few more out there, but those three came to mind first.
You fail to understand the crux of our problem from the game, we (and when I say we I mean ME) are judging the game from released information and known videos and such, and what we see is the very reason why we quit games like WoW, or at the very least are looking for the next best thing and seeing as SWToR gameplay (other then story elements) plays exactly like WoW or slightly worse according to my perspective then why should I play something thats the same albeit in a new skin. You see I want something new, innovative, and suprising from games I play.
Good luck finding that. Maybe in the next decade something will come out that can satisfy you. The only thing is most everytime I see people make these statements, the stuff they want would not be very popluar. For instance, it is nice to THINK about a world in which your actions changes everything except that then the content of the game would be completely used up in the first few days after release. Lots of fun there.
Edit: I would also like to add there is a problem when alot and I dont know the exact numbers but there are ALOT of MMO players who only plan on picking SWToR to experience the story elements because that is obviously the only new thing it brings to the table.
Except that again, this statement is false. I won't bother going into the particulars since you obviously know them already and have dismissed anything you don't want to agree with. Try this, go back and actually read the reviews all over the internet again and count how many bad reviews there are. Then do the same thing with blog posts, and hit up the forums as well. Now keep in mind, the only ones worth a darn are the ones from people that have ACTUALLY played the game. I think you will find that story is only ONE of the things mentioned that they really liked.
In RED above for ease of reading.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
There is one big problem with this game, it's Star Wars 3000 years back.... not many people know anything about this time, none of the characters or have any feeling for anyone. There is no Vader, no Hans, no Luke etc. Nobody to care about like you do with the real Star Wars characters.
Who do I fight for? Some Sith dude or a lame light Jedi with a cute blue lightsaber...
I wanna fight for the Empire, Vader the person I grow up with. The Star Wars from the 80's, join the Stormtroopers!
Not some stoneage people 3000 years back...
This game will cost over 300 million and it will die after 1 month.
-Graphics always work for some people and don't for others. It can make or break wether someone buys a typical game but not usually an MMO. They setup the graphics to be accessable yet stylized in a way that represents the KOTOR universe. Tons of people compare it to the Clone Wars movie but in reality it is more of an upgraded KOTOR graphic style. Tons of people who play MMOs are not hardcore gamers with super-computers so they made sure to keep it so that the system requirements are lower.
-Combat is something you can't really put a finger on from a video. To me every MMO's combat short of maybe Tera's looks identical. I know the abilities, class mechanics, and setup are going to be VERY similar to WoW's but most people who have played it said the gameplay is both fresh yet old at the same time and felt good. So it really is hard to jump to conclusions about how fun it is. Combat is one of the risky things in an MMO to change, and even though it has been revised countless times since EQ came out; It has never really changed in a game that was actually successful. (Closest call was probably AOC)
-Quests is something that does not really need changing. I mean, what do you honestly expect them to do here? RPGs have had this style of questing since before MMORPGs started coming out. What they meant by the "not kill 10 rats" part was more of a jab at the idea of how questing feels insignificant in scale in other games and that you dont feel like a hero. The way it is represented in SWTOR is similar to what a hero would do. You may not like the way they handled the "heroic" aspect of the game, but generally speaking, that was what they meant. Making choices is not something to be taken lightly either. You can't just reload your old save if you don't like a choice you made, this is permanent. That makes an impact no one will really understand fully until the game actually ships, especially if a companion dies. Story matters a TON in themepark games as it is the driving factor behind all the madness.
To add more to that: ArenaNet can make much bolder choices in regards to gameplay changes and innovation because the success they have will be more dependant on box sales as opposed to SWTOR. I understand your frustration that they spent so much money on the game and can't deliver much innovation, but really, that just reinforces the fact that they can't take such huge risks.
-End game is not going to be different in any themepark game really. They have stated that it is not a sandbox game. If you want to play a sandbox game go play one -- or wait for one. Unfortunately, or fortunately, however you wish to look at it; the success in the MMO industry has always been with themepark games. Until someone comes along and proves otherwise, I doubt that will change. Sand box is really just a few additions that can be added with content patches anyways. They already have ships in place, which I am sure you will be able to customize or will be able to in the future. BioWare has also talked about adding in guild ships/stations as well in the future. I don't think you will be planting flowers on Hutta anytime soon, but sandbox elements can be added later.
I don't have a problem with end game in theme park games as it is since I enjoy raiding and dungeon grinding. (god forbid, i mean EQ was considered a sandbox to some and you grinded the same set of 3 mobs for like 20 hours sometimes ;p) I do hope they have some form of world pvp though. For me and probably most people, content is king regardless of style of content.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
I am curious where you got that BioWare claimed this was going to be "a mix of both sandbox and themepark elements". Not that I doubt what you are saying, but you may have misread something or taken it out of context because I have never seen anything like that.
There is one big problem with this game, it's Star Wars 3000 years back.... not many people know anything about this time, none of the characters or have any feeling for anyone. There is no Vader, no Hans, no Luke etc. Nobody to care about like you do with the real Star Wars characters.
Who do I fight for? Some Sith dude or a lame light Jedi with a cute blue lightsaber...
I wanna fight for the Empire, Vader the person I grow up with. The Star Wars from the 80's, join the Stormtroopers!
Not some stoneage people 3000 years back...
This game will cost over 300 million and it will die after 1 month.
Wow . . . seriously, you actually believe ANY of this? The begining part may be true for you I guess, but not for all. As a matter of fact, after the last Star Wars MMO was so butchered, which was placed in the time of the "Original Trilogy" mind you, I think a lot of people, if not most, are happy to actually have a fresh start at Star Wars. Especially since this particular era is wide open for story making.
By the way, even the lying blogger that originally claimed SWTOR was costing $300 million eventually came out and admitted it was a lie AND that he had NO WAY of knowing how much this game was actually costing. That doesn't help your credibility too much . . . sorry.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
To nit-pick; no but there were 11 Million (and still is last I checked) that PAID for a game that had that feature.
In the end, for a company, Paid > Like.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
^This. Not to mention the fact that a large amount of those 11 million players haven't reached end-game, and that as seen in Rift once players hit the endgame they start cancelling subscriptions. Traditiona; endgame is used by most MMORPGs, but it's got a lot of opposition and many players avoid endgame by rerolling characters.
Only thing that bothers me is some of the pre-emptive reviews from people who have yet to play it. Its a solid MMO with some new ways of doing things and some improvements on old ways. Its not a re-invention of the wheel its just an improvement on the wheels we have, but if you were hoping it would be the hover board to replace your skates, well thats unfortunate.
Personally cant wait, but fully understand not everyone will like it.
Ok read your first sentence slowly!!!! now read the second sentence! If you cant pick up on the irony in your post let me care to elaborate.
First you say that it bothers you that people HAVN'T played SWToR yet. Then in your very next argument you call it a solid MMO. How bout you go by your very own words since you obviously havnt played either.
Except that the reviews, blogs, and forum posts from people who HAVE played it are pretty overwhelmingly positive. Personally I can only think of three reviews from people that did not like it and in two of them the authors said that the game was solid, just not the sandbox games they prefer and all the bashing they had for it were based on that fact alone. The third was from a self proclaimed console player that admits to not liking computer games in general. I am sure that there may be a few more out there, but those three came to mind first.
Im not saying they arent positive, Im sasying this combat style is boring and nothing inspring not to mention theres thousands of forum posters saying the exact same thing. You also dont understand that Reviews and Blogs you read are positive because of ulterior motives. The negativity isnt coming from these people its coming from no-body forum posters like myself, the OP and half MMO forum posters I read on a daily basis. STILl the fact remains you nor I have played the game but I have seen videos and gameplay and to me the style of combat is boring over-hashed and the same if not a bit worse then WoW.
You fail to understand the crux of our problem from the game, we (and when I say we I mean ME) are judging the game from released information and known videos and such, and what we see is the very reason why we quit games like WoW, or at the very least are looking for the next best thing and seeing as SWToR gameplay (other then story elements) plays exactly like WoW or slightly worse according to my perspective then why should I play something thats the same albeit in a new skin. You see I want something new, innovative, and suprising from games I play.
Good luck finding that. Maybe in the next decade something will come out that can satisfy you. The only thing is most everytime I see people make these statements, the stuff they want would not be very popluar. For instance, it is nice to THINK about a world in which your actions changes everything except that then the content of the game would be completely used up in the first few days after release. Lots of fun there.
I dont full yexpect you to understand what im talking about but i'll spell it out in a little more friendly concept. SWToR gameplay is very very very similar to games like WoW, Rift, War, LOTRO and all the slew of EQ/WoW clones. In fact the only AAA developer attempting to break this vicious cycle is Funcom with TSW and Anet with GW2. That to me is a crying shame since im willing to bet the farm that jsut as many people would love a sandbox themed MMO as people love themepark MMO's.
Edit: I would also like to add there is a problem when alot and I dont know the exact numbers but there are ALOT of MMO players who only plan on picking SWToR to experience the story elements because that is obviously the only new thing it brings to the table.
Except that again, this statement is false. I won't bother going into the particulars since you obviously know them already and have dismissed anything you don't want to agree with. Try this, go back and actually read the reviews all over the internet again and count how many bad reviews there are. Then do the same thing with blog posts, and hit up the forums as well. Now keep in mind, the only ones worth a darn are the ones from people that have ACTUALLY played the game. I think you will find that story is only ONE of the things mentioned that they really liked.
Except it is true. Go read the official forums, as well as any MMO forum and you will see that alot of players are only planning on picking up SWToR for the storylines ONLY, this is a fact! Now it doesnt means alot of those may get captivated enough by the game to stick around but right at this moment there are literally 1000's of posters saying they plan on playing for a month or 2 or playing the game as if it was KOTOR3 and forgoing most of the MMO elements. Facts are facts my friend
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
Actually Blizzard is losing their playerbase in droves since the release of Cata, this is a known and admitted fact. Also of that 11 million players only 30% of those were in NA and Europe, the rest were accounts in Asia where their payment structures is different and the playerbase isnt static for the most part like in the Western market. I believe the number I seen was closer to 4 million NA/EU accts but that number has dwindled since then. Still it doesnt detract from the argument that WoW is still king however it is bleeding and the genre is prime for a new game to come along, unfortunetly that game wont be anything resembling WoW but a game that is innovative and takes a differing gameplay philosophy.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
^This. Not to mention the fact that a large amount of those 11 million players haven't reached end-game, and that as seen in Rift once players hit the endgame they start cancelling subscriptions. Traditiona; endgame is used by most MMORPGs, but it's got a lot of opposition and many players avoid endgame by rerolling characters.
I agree. I dont think the majority wants to grind the same dungeons for months to get gear. They collect mounts, create alts, craft and other things. And I dont think a game needs to be a sandbox to have alot of things to do at max level. Even if some might think anything that is not grinding instances to get gear cant be part of a themepark.
And a new game will need more to convince players to stay and continue subscribing. WoW can focus on "grinding dungeons for gear" because there are alot of other reasons not related to content that makes people want to continue playing. Such as friends that play and the time they have invested in the game.
And I wonder how this can be? I mean, if you invest SO MANY dollars, now matter how many exactly, and if you make the next STAR WARS MMO... don't YOU expect... I dunno... more? I mean, come on. It's EA, Bioware, Starwars and tons of dollars... and this is it?
Exactly how I feel about the game I have seen.
Nonethekess, it will be massive, and once again will the market have given the very clear signal that it wants quest grind driven themepark games that lack ambition or imagination (no matter how much they cry they don't)
We really only have ourselves to blame for the state of this genre. If we didnt show them this what sells they would make something else.
I expected those replies, I was hesitant to even throw out the WoW comparison ;P Fact of the matter is though, this is a business and wether you like it or not..the current end game model has been proven to work. As much as games are wonderful for the consumer, developers still want to get paid.
Also of that 11 million players only 30% of those were in NA and Europe, the rest were accounts in Asia where their payment structures is different and the playerbase isnt static for the most part like in the Western market. I believe the number I seen was closer to 4 million NA/EU accts but that number has dwindled since then. Still it doesnt detract from the argument that WoW is still king however it is bleeding and the genre is prime for a new game to come along, unfortunetly that game wont be anything resembling WoW but a game that is innovative and takes a differing gameplay philosophy.
? Do you have sources of that claim? I've been looking for more information about it, but so far the only info I got was from 2008, where NA/EU accounted for 4.5 million subs and Asia and the rest for 5.5 million. After that, Blizzard stopped publicising separate regional sub figures. So if you have a source, I'm very interested.
Your second part, well, that's just speculating and I guess your own wishful thinking. My own bet is that MMO gamers haven't grown as tired of themepark gameplay as some people here tend to think. After all, the demise of WoW has been announced on this very site a lot and just as certain since 2007, as I discovered reading back threads from here.
Originally posted by vesavius
Exactly how I feel about the game I have seen.
Nonethekess, it will be massive, and once again will the market have given the very clear signal that it wants quest grind driven themepark games that lack ambition or imagination.
We really only have ourselves to blame for the state of this genre. If wedidnt show them this what sells they would make something else.
Ahh well.
Oh come on, don't be so negative. There's also GW2, TSW, TERA, ArcheAge and other MMO's upcoming, so it's far too early to claim doom and gloom. In fact, I think that we'll see several different MMO designs be successful and exist happily next to eachother. No need for a 'there can be only one!' exclamations when it comes to successful and popular MMO gameplay type.
Admittedly, that's my own wishful thinking speaking too
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have a question to the people that seem to have a problem with the end-game - What do you suggest? People love to state what sucks and needs innovation, but very few are prepared to provide said initiative.
I myself have grown tired of the raid/dungeon grind. I recognize that **I** have grown bored of it. It doesn't mean that the model blows, will ultimately fail, and that anyone that likes the model is a douche bag.
Comments
Only thing that bothers me is some of the pre-emptive reviews from people who have yet to play it. Its a solid MMO with some new ways of doing things and some improvements on old ways. Its not a re-invention of the wheel its just an improvement on the wheels we have, but if you were hoping it would be the hover board to replace your skates, well thats unfortunate.
Personally cant wait, but fully understand not everyone will like it.
One can easily have fun in a game and be social in its community, while trashing others on this website
I dont see ppl as that simple anyway. They can show many faces.
On topic: I agree with the OP the more I see of SWTOR the more mediocre it seems.
Off topic:
Or you know... the CU or the jedi villages or the fact that SOE seemed bent on doing whatever they wanted without caring one bit what the players wanted drove off a lot of players. There were a lot of reason why people were leaving SWG after the first month I doubt they had to do with it wasn't a themepark.
Also, I know you love to say that sandbox mmos wouldn't work but Eve has a lot of subs for P2P and being in a niche genre. Till a non indie dev tries to make, market and support a character based sandbox MMO and then doesn't screw it up like EA and SOE did, we don't know how well one would do.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Ok read your first sentence slowly!!!! now read the second sentence! If you cant pick up on the irony in your post let me care to elaborate.
First you say that it bothers you that people HAVN'T played SWToR yet. Then in your very next argument you call it a solid MMO. How bout you go by your very own words since you obviously havnt played either.
You fail to understand the crux of our problem from the game, we (and when I say we I mean ME) are judging the game from released information and known videos and such, and what we see is the very reason why we quit games like WoW, or at the very least are looking for the next best thing and seeing as SWToR gameplay (other then story elements) plays exactly like WoW or slightly worse according to my perspective then why should I play something thats the same albeit in a new skin. You see I want something new, innovative, and suprising from games I play.
Edit: I would also like to add there is a problem when alot and I dont know the exact numbers but there are ALOT of MMO players who only plan on picking SWToR to experience the story elements because that is obviously the only new thing it brings to the table.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
hate to bump a thread for bumping's sakes but this times a MILLLLLLION!
I couldnt of said this any better my friend. A Niche game like Eve with its P2P subscription just screams that the sandbox model developed by a AAA studio would rival WoW. Hell it was the sandbox model that got this genre in the mainstream. I assert a MMO fantasy sandbox modeled after DAoC RvR, UO's Housing, Asherons Call Skill system, Vanguards Diplomacy and crafting with a sprinkle of WoW action orientated combat and Rift/GW2 Dynamic content would sell like gangbusters.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
True, just as we don't know how SWTOR will do, or how well Star Wars as a true AAA themepark MMO will do.
If you read back, then you'll see that the argument wasn't about sandbox MMO's can't work, but that Star Wars as a sandbox MMO has been tried, it wasn't the mega success that people make of it, nor was its decreasing population solely due to the NGE.
If people liked it, good for them. We've seen how Star Wars did like an AAA sandbox MMORPG. Now we'll see how Star Wars will do as an AAA themepark MMORPG. People dismissing it just because it's a themepark MMORPG that reminds them of other themepark MMO's is silly, after all it's a design model that has been strong for years now.
Mind you, like I said elsewhere, I still think that a hybrid design is the best to have for an MMORPG, but that doesn't mean that I automatically dismiss MMO's that are purely themepark or purely sandbox for the simple reason that it isn't my taste, as some here on these forums are quick to do.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That sounds like ArcheAge to me.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Indeed.
I just hope raiding won't be the only endgame option.
SexuaLobster's Grease Portal
Maybe. Maybe to some it won't be more than that. But it also has all the main themepark features that WoW, LotrO, Aion, Rift and others have, so to MMO gamers who also like to enjoy those, it'll also have other things to enjoy.
So we'll see how strong and persistent themepark gameplay will be besides a WoW, when it's done at a high quality level by another large, respected game company.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
In RED above for ease of reading.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
There is one big problem with this game, it's Star Wars 3000 years back.... not many people know anything about this time, none of the characters or have any feeling for anyone. There is no Vader, no Hans, no Luke etc. Nobody to care about like you do with the real Star Wars characters.
Who do I fight for? Some Sith dude or a lame light Jedi with a cute blue lightsaber...
I wanna fight for the Empire, Vader the person I grow up with. The Star Wars from the 80's, join the Stormtroopers!
Not some stoneage people 3000 years back...
This game will cost over 300 million and it will die after 1 month.
Nice to see the gross misconceptions about this game are still alive and well today.
-Graphics always work for some people and don't for others. It can make or break wether someone buys a typical game but not usually an MMO. They setup the graphics to be accessable yet stylized in a way that represents the KOTOR universe. Tons of people compare it to the Clone Wars movie but in reality it is more of an upgraded KOTOR graphic style. Tons of people who play MMOs are not hardcore gamers with super-computers so they made sure to keep it so that the system requirements are lower.
-Combat is something you can't really put a finger on from a video. To me every MMO's combat short of maybe Tera's looks identical. I know the abilities, class mechanics, and setup are going to be VERY similar to WoW's but most people who have played it said the gameplay is both fresh yet old at the same time and felt good. So it really is hard to jump to conclusions about how fun it is. Combat is one of the risky things in an MMO to change, and even though it has been revised countless times since EQ came out; It has never really changed in a game that was actually successful. (Closest call was probably AOC)
-Quests is something that does not really need changing. I mean, what do you honestly expect them to do here? RPGs have had this style of questing since before MMORPGs started coming out. What they meant by the "not kill 10 rats" part was more of a jab at the idea of how questing feels insignificant in scale in other games and that you dont feel like a hero. The way it is represented in SWTOR is similar to what a hero would do. You may not like the way they handled the "heroic" aspect of the game, but generally speaking, that was what they meant. Making choices is not something to be taken lightly either. You can't just reload your old save if you don't like a choice you made, this is permanent. That makes an impact no one will really understand fully until the game actually ships, especially if a companion dies. Story matters a TON in themepark games as it is the driving factor behind all the madness.
To add more to that: ArenaNet can make much bolder choices in regards to gameplay changes and innovation because the success they have will be more dependant on box sales as opposed to SWTOR. I understand your frustration that they spent so much money on the game and can't deliver much innovation, but really, that just reinforces the fact that they can't take such huge risks.
-End game is not going to be different in any themepark game really. They have stated that it is not a sandbox game. If you want to play a sandbox game go play one -- or wait for one. Unfortunately, or fortunately, however you wish to look at it; the success in the MMO industry has always been with themepark games. Until someone comes along and proves otherwise, I doubt that will change. Sand box is really just a few additions that can be added with content patches anyways. They already have ships in place, which I am sure you will be able to customize or will be able to in the future. BioWare has also talked about adding in guild ships/stations as well in the future. I don't think you will be planting flowers on Hutta anytime soon, but sandbox elements can be added later.
I don't have a problem with end game in theme park games as it is since I enjoy raiding and dungeon grinding. (god forbid, i mean EQ was considered a sandbox to some and you grinded the same set of 3 mobs for like 20 hours sometimes ;p) I do hope they have some form of world pvp though. For me and probably most people, content is king regardless of style of content.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
I am curious where you got that BioWare claimed this was going to be "a mix of both sandbox and themepark elements". Not that I doubt what you are saying, but you may have misread something or taken it out of context because I have never seen anything like that.
Wow . . . seriously, you actually believe ANY of this? The begining part may be true for you I guess, but not for all. As a matter of fact, after the last Star Wars MMO was so butchered, which was placed in the time of the "Original Trilogy" mind you, I think a lot of people, if not most, are happy to actually have a fresh start at Star Wars. Especially since this particular era is wide open for story making.
By the way, even the lying blogger that originally claimed SWTOR was costing $300 million eventually came out and admitted it was a lie AND that he had NO WAY of knowing how much this game was actually costing. That doesn't help your credibility too much . . . sorry.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
To nit-pick; no but there were 11 Million (and still is last I checked) that PAID for a game that had that feature.
In the end, for a company, Paid > Like.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
^This. Not to mention the fact that a large amount of those 11 million players haven't reached end-game, and that as seen in Rift once players hit the endgame they start cancelling subscriptions. Traditiona; endgame is used by most MMORPGs, but it's got a lot of opposition and many players avoid endgame by rerolling characters.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Actually Blizzard is losing their playerbase in droves since the release of Cata, this is a known and admitted fact. Also of that 11 million players only 30% of those were in NA and Europe, the rest were accounts in Asia where their payment structures is different and the playerbase isnt static for the most part like in the Western market. I believe the number I seen was closer to 4 million NA/EU accts but that number has dwindled since then. Still it doesnt detract from the argument that WoW is still king however it is bleeding and the genre is prime for a new game to come along, unfortunetly that game wont be anything resembling WoW but a game that is innovative and takes a differing gameplay philosophy.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I agree. I dont think the majority wants to grind the same dungeons for months to get gear. They collect mounts, create alts, craft and other things. And I dont think a game needs to be a sandbox to have alot of things to do at max level. Even if some might think anything that is not grinding instances to get gear cant be part of a themepark.
And a new game will need more to convince players to stay and continue subscribing. WoW can focus on "grinding dungeons for gear" because there are alot of other reasons not related to content that makes people want to continue playing. Such as friends that play and the time they have invested in the game.
Exactly how I feel about the game I have seen.
Nonethekess, it will be massive, and once again will the market have given the very clear signal that it wants quest grind driven themepark games that lack ambition or imagination (no matter how much they cry they don't)
We really only have ourselves to blame for the state of this genre. If we didnt show them this what sells they would make something else.
Ahh well.
I expected those replies, I was hesitant to even throw out the WoW comparison ;P Fact of the matter is though, this is a business and wether you like it or not..the current end game model has been proven to work. As much as games are wonderful for the consumer, developers still want to get paid.
? Do you have sources of that claim? I've been looking for more information about it, but so far the only info I got was from 2008, where NA/EU accounted for 4.5 million subs and Asia and the rest for 5.5 million. After that, Blizzard stopped publicising separate regional sub figures. So if you have a source, I'm very interested.
Your second part, well, that's just speculating and I guess your own wishful thinking. My own bet is that MMO gamers haven't grown as tired of themepark gameplay as some people here tend to think. After all, the demise of WoW has been announced on this very site a lot and just as certain since 2007, as I discovered reading back threads from here.
Oh come on, don't be so negative. There's also GW2, TSW, TERA, ArcheAge and other MMO's upcoming, so it's far too early to claim doom and gloom. In fact, I think that we'll see several different MMO designs be successful and exist happily next to eachother. No need for a 'there can be only one!' exclamations when it comes to successful and popular MMO gameplay type.
Admittedly, that's my own wishful thinking speaking too
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have a question to the people that seem to have a problem with the end-game - What do you suggest? People love to state what sucks and needs innovation, but very few are prepared to provide said initiative.
I myself have grown tired of the raid/dungeon grind. I recognize that **I** have grown bored of it. It doesn't mean that the model blows, will ultimately fail, and that anyone that likes the model is a douche bag.