Sure SWG has 'survive' but you know as well I do that it had failed as Star wars MMO the moment NGE. From what I heard about empty servers and closed server there is no way it has even the 1/3 of the number of players it had. Now I won't say that SWG was a prefect or even great game but when it came it had a base of a great and fun game. If SOE wouldn't have been intent on changing the game and would have actually tried to fix it, I firmly believe that it would still be succesful and not limping long like it is.
Now can we stop pointing out how SOE contuines to beat the dead horse that is SWG?
SWG was and sill is the most flawed and bugged game I ever palyed.
However Pre-Cu SWG is still the game that has the most potential. it coult have lasted 20 years, really.
Key word, potential. SWG had some ideas that were nothing short of brilliant, sadly though SOE seems to be managed by a team of monkeys.
Again though, this has "bleep" all to do with SWTOR. If we want to discuss SWG, there are already forums provided for that.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Sure SWG has 'survive' but you know as well I do that it had failed as Star wars MMO the moment NGE. From what I heard about empty servers and closed server there is no way it has even the 1/3 of the number of players it had. Now I won't say that SWG was a prefect or even great game but when it came it had a base of a great and fun game. If SOE wouldn't have been intent on changing the game and would have actually tried to fix it, I firmly believe that it would still be succesful and not limping long like it is.
Now can we stop pointing out how SOE contuines to beat the dead horse that is SWG?
A not impossible possibility, but I counter that if SWGs own playerbase hadn't been such obnoxious crybaby wankers to the dev staff (and yes many of the dev staff were just as guilty of the obnoxious wanker behavior on the forums), we may have never had the CU and the NGE. But those are just our opinions and sadly neither of us will ever get to see if we were right or not.
As to beating a dead horse. If disgruntled vets will quit judging this game on how it isn't SWG2, and focus on what it is, (a themepark Star Wars game), I'm more than happy to drop the subject.
I don't want to point at the devs. From my knowledge the suits are responsible for the failure (LA and SoE alike). The devs wanted to a) fix the game, b) improve it.
However the way the suits prioritized things made it so 1) add bugged content on top of major issues 2) don't listen to players wants, we (the suits) know what they need.
In short, while I feel SWG had some pretty brilliant ideas, the continuous flaws in their execution, combined with a rather snotty and unforgiving fan base, ruined the game.
So to those of you who want to live in your rose tinted dreams about your great lost game, that is your choice. But don't try to tell those of us who saw it differently, that your ideas of what makes a good game is the only choice there is.
This.
And yeah, that's the impression I gathered myself, only strengthened by this site and (some) old SWG fans frequenting these forums. Intolerance and vindictiveness ftw.
Originally posted by Tardcore
A not impossible possibility, but I counter that if SWGs own playerbase hadn't been such obnoxious crybaby wankers to the dev staff (and yes many of the dev staff were just as guilty of the obnoxious wanker behavior on the forums), we may have never had the CU and the NGE. But those are just our opinions and sadly neither of us will ever get to see if we were right or not.
As to beating a dead horse. If disgruntled vets will quit judging this game on how it isn't SWG2, and focus on what it is, (a themepark Star Wars game), I'm more than happy to drop the subject.
I know we often have our differences in opinion and disagreeing viewpoints, but your posts are full of awesomesauce today.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"Everyone on the internet is wrong - except me. I'm always right. Why? Well, because I think my opinion matters. That's why. By the way, I REALLY like to use the same catch phrase, sound-byte, incredibly weak and un-supported arguements as 99% of the rest of the internet trolls, but I try to word mine better, and fail."
OP, you may be right, you may be wrong, point is - no one cares.
I've read your exact same post 187,687,638,001 times. And you know what? I still don't care.
I've read all the feedback/comments from people who have actually played the game, to me, having something to back their arguments makes their opinion far, far more trustworthy then internet troll #187,687,638,000.
I'm not defending the game.
Why? Because I have not played it and thus have no support for any argument I may give.
I am defending logic, rationality, and reason.
Unfortunatley, those are the three things that are almost never found on forums.
- No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements! I mean, I love themepark questing, but to keep people playing a game in the long run, JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes. And what better to keep people entertained a longer time, as to add *some* sandbox elements. But truth is, unless we are yet to hear surprises: They ain't there. You have your story quests and the rest is figleaf-there. There is figleaf space, figleaf-crafting, figleaf-hosuing and the game is almost entirely empty of anything NOT involving killing stuff. And Sandbox elements just remain the best receipe for longevity! I mean, what am I do to otherwise if my 200 hours class story are over?
I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.
First off, that was a rant, but many people will agree with it, so no worries there. However, in the case of sandbox elements, the game, from many points, has it. Sure, it's not completely sandboxy, but sandbox MMOs, as of yet, have failed to live long. The combination of the two is the best choice for a "tons of dollars" Triple A MMO. And the game has it, for the most part.
Sure, it's not SWG in terms of expansive realms, and the ability to fly around in space, but who needs all that? I mean really. Areas have been associated with being far larger and more diverse, with more going on, than in other, more linear MMOs.
And, in terms of combat, it is WAY better than any MMO out there at the moment. I'm not speaking as a fan boi. I'm speaking as a spectator of the detail that has gone into it. Quests don't seem to be all "Granny Sithlord's Womprat Extravaganzy" as you profess, but that still remains to be seen, until we've all had time to get into this game.
PHASING / INSTANCES: Game is full of phased scenarios, instanced rooms and caves (covered by a mysterious green forcefield which keeps others out), and physically cuts out your contact with other players. This makes the questing boring and solo.
Which also makes a quest completable in a timely manner when twenty or so people are in the same area trying to do the same quests. Works for me. Winner!
QUESTING: I was hyped up about bioware doing "something different", boy was i wrong. Quests are the same dumbed down "kill 12 bats and bring their wings back to me", except theres voiceovers, which tend to screw up and not work. Not once did i see anything interesting in a quest, and i did about 200 of them. Not to mention they were all incredibly easy to complete.
BioWare did not promise a new questing experince, they promised to deliver it in a new way to make it feel better and less of a grind. That is what the VO and cinematics are for, not to mention Companions sticking there two cents in. Works for me. Winner!
WOW CLONE / WOW IN SPACE: Game is exactly like World of Warcraft, Exactly. From the combat style to the skill trees. The skill trees are a progressive branch point system, looks EXACTLY like WoW, as if they copied and pasted the same layout. Also the questing, interaction, and even the exp display has been copied right from wow. This is literally WoW with space skins on it.
Not even worth going into really. BioWare is doing the same thing here that WoW did, taking a bunch of things that work, polishing them and adding there own twist. Works for me. Winner!
GRAPHICS / ANIMATIONS: The scenary in the world looks decent, not the best, not as good as everquest 2 from like 8 years ago, but decent. The players, armor and animations look absolutely horrific. My character looked like he put his face in a meat grinder. the Running, slashing and shooting is all overexaggerated and looks terrible. Makes the game less fun to play.
Some of the most details backgrounds I have seen in any game. Some beat it for sure, but not many. Armor and animations are very good looking, especially the animations which are fluid and "realistic" looking in the movements and affects. I personally like how BioWare used motion caption to make sure the animations are the most realistic for character movements we can find. Looks good to me. Winner!
LINEAR MAPS: The first 2-3 "maps" or "zones" you experience, you see large rolling mountian ranges and scenary as you (Fly in 300 feet over the trees on a land speeder (didnt know land speeders did that), which is exactly like the lionbat in WoW on a linear path), only to discover a small map with no options to explore. the zone is completely centered around paths and "theme park" style questing.
Meh. Suspencion of disbelief and all. Plus I only saw one part myself where a land speeder seemed to defy the normal running protocal and that was to fly up a mountainside and go through a gap in the cliff to get to the other side, then back down into the valley. From what I have seen of the zones they are also bigger than almost any other game out there, but we will have to wait til the game releases to be sure. Looked good to me. Winner!
REPETITION: When you do finally make it in to a larger "instanced zone" in which you have to travel throughout a ship, or enemies lair, there is extreme repition. you kil the same 3 types of mobs (which are easy), over and over.... and over.... and over.... AND over again. until you get to a "boss" whom is slightly more difficult, but still easy. and then you do that over again.
So every game out there must be annoying the heck out of you. As I stated before, it is the delivery that BioWare promised to be new and refreshing, not the quest itself.
The problem with your claims for the reason this game will fail is that for every one you bashed, there are people that like it OR don't care in the long run (see the RED above). If the overall experience of this game gives them what they want, then it will be a smash hit, if it does not then it will be successful, but not a smash. So far though, I have seen a LOT of reviews, from people who have played the game, claiming that the game is great while very few are saying bad things about it.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Why not just play a single player game? That's not a MMO. You are asking for single player game elements to be in an MMO when you support locking players out of areas that you are in.
Quest leveling has been a part of AAA MMORPG's for years now and was introduced as a more enjoyable alternative to mob grinding, what a lot of MMO gamers agreed with that it indeed was a more enjoyable experience.
Maybe you should just accept it that you just don't like themepark MMO's and that you're a hardcore sandbox MMO fan.
Also, the guy you were replying on wasn't lying, he was just expressing an opinion that you as a hardcore sandbox fan (and themepark hater?) happen to disagree with, that's not lying, that's a difference in opinion and taste.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with the OP only so far as I also think the MMO genre is getting a bit stale. I would also like to see something new and different that redefines and improves upon the existing conventions that are being beaten to death today.
Bioware has been saying for a long time that isn't what they are trying to do here, though, so if you are expecting that, then you aren't paying attention.
Guild Wars 2, however, does seem to be trying something new. I was impressed when I watched a video where one of the devs said she wasn't interested in making the same MMO that is already out there. Only time will tell though which approach is going to work better for them. Personally, I am hoping they both succeed. More variety is always a win for gamers.
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
I was reading a PCgamer preview of GW2 and they said that while the combat isn't quite Devil May Cry for a persistant character, it's close.
If they pull it off I agree it will be good for the genre and a lot of people will like but you see the thing is I'm not a fan of DMC and that genre of games and I have no interest in playing an MMO like that. GW2 sounds amazing and they are making a lot of noise about what they are going to do but there's a lot of questions to be answered before I start jumping for joy.
People slam SWTOR for having the same old endgame but I like getting together with friends, firing up Vent and then going raiding. Bioware are fixing the biggest problem I had with MMOs by using story and from what I can find out while GW will have a personal story it's nothing like what Bioware are doing.
Ahh well, guess I'll throw in my disappointment. Guilds. No real reason to recruit. No taking of territory or holding. Instanced battles that look fun I suppose, but also look like they would get boring quick. I'm not a hater, but I will play the game in a vacant channel in vent to enjoy the story. (unless in PvP). Unlike STO, who promised a two faction waring setting, Bioware is at least honest unlike Cryptic. I hope I'm wrong as I'm still not sure the difference between the PvP servers and the PvE.
Final episode season 1 of "Game of Thrones" is on....Gotta go.
Comments
Key word, potential. SWG had some ideas that were nothing short of brilliant, sadly though SOE seems to be managed by a team of monkeys.
Again though, this has "bleep" all to do with SWTOR. If we want to discuss SWG, there are already forums provided for that.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I don't want to point at the devs. From my knowledge the suits are responsible for the failure (LA and SoE alike). The devs wanted to a) fix the game, b) improve it.
However the way the suits prioritized things made it so 1) add bugged content on top of major issues 2) don't listen to players wants, we (the suits) know what they need.
This.
And yeah, that's the impression I gathered myself, only strengthened by this site and (some) old SWG fans frequenting these forums. Intolerance and vindictiveness ftw.
I know we often have our differences in opinion and disagreeing viewpoints, but your posts are full of awesomesauce today.
+1 to appeal to common sense and reason.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"Everyone on the internet is wrong - except me. I'm always right. Why? Well, because I think my opinion matters. That's why. By the way, I REALLY like to use the same catch phrase, sound-byte, incredibly weak and un-supported arguements as 99% of the rest of the internet trolls, but I try to word mine better, and fail."
OP, you may be right, you may be wrong, point is - no one cares.
I've read your exact same post 187,687,638,001 times. And you know what? I still don't care.
I've read all the feedback/comments from people who have actually played the game, to me, having something to back their arguments makes their opinion far, far more trustworthy then internet troll #187,687,638,000.
I'm not defending the game.
Why? Because I have not played it and thus have no support for any argument I may give.
I am defending logic, rationality, and reason.
Unfortunatley, those are the three things that are almost never found on forums.
Cheers.
First off, that was a rant, but many people will agree with it, so no worries there. However, in the case of sandbox elements, the game, from many points, has it. Sure, it's not completely sandboxy, but sandbox MMOs, as of yet, have failed to live long. The combination of the two is the best choice for a "tons of dollars" Triple A MMO. And the game has it, for the most part.
Sure, it's not SWG in terms of expansive realms, and the ability to fly around in space, but who needs all that? I mean really. Areas have been associated with being far larger and more diverse, with more going on, than in other, more linear MMOs.
And, in terms of combat, it is WAY better than any MMO out there at the moment. I'm not speaking as a fan boi. I'm speaking as a spectator of the detail that has gone into it. Quests don't seem to be all "Granny Sithlord's Womprat Extravaganzy" as you profess, but that still remains to be seen, until we've all had time to get into this game.
THE Rooster Nash
The problem with your claims for the reason this game will fail is that for every one you bashed, there are people that like it OR don't care in the long run (see the RED above). If the overall experience of this game gives them what they want, then it will be a smash hit, if it does not then it will be successful, but not a smash. So far though, I have seen a LOT of reviews, from people who have played the game, claiming that the game is great while very few are saying bad things about it.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Quest leveling has been a part of AAA MMORPG's for years now and was introduced as a more enjoyable alternative to mob grinding, what a lot of MMO gamers agreed with that it indeed was a more enjoyable experience.
Maybe you should just accept it that you just don't like themepark MMO's and that you're a hardcore sandbox MMO fan.
Also, the guy you were replying on wasn't lying, he was just expressing an opinion that you as a hardcore sandbox fan (and themepark hater?) happen to disagree with, that's not lying, that's a difference in opinion and taste.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with the OP only so far as I also think the MMO genre is getting a bit stale. I would also like to see something new and different that redefines and improves upon the existing conventions that are being beaten to death today.
Bioware has been saying for a long time that isn't what they are trying to do here, though, so if you are expecting that, then you aren't paying attention.
Guild Wars 2, however, does seem to be trying something new. I was impressed when I watched a video where one of the devs said she wasn't interested in making the same MMO that is already out there. Only time will tell though which approach is going to work better for them. Personally, I am hoping they both succeed. More variety is always a win for gamers.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
I was reading a PCgamer preview of GW2 and they said that while the combat isn't quite Devil May Cry for a persistant character, it's close.
If they pull it off I agree it will be good for the genre and a lot of people will like but you see the thing is I'm not a fan of DMC and that genre of games and I have no interest in playing an MMO like that. GW2 sounds amazing and they are making a lot of noise about what they are going to do but there's a lot of questions to be answered before I start jumping for joy.
People slam SWTOR for having the same old endgame but I like getting together with friends, firing up Vent and then going raiding. Bioware are fixing the biggest problem I had with MMOs by using story and from what I can find out while GW will have a personal story it's nothing like what Bioware are doing.
Ahh well, guess I'll throw in my disappointment. Guilds. No real reason to recruit. No taking of territory or holding. Instanced battles that look fun I suppose, but also look like they would get boring quick. I'm not a hater, but I will play the game in a vacant channel in vent to enjoy the story. (unless in PvP). Unlike STO, who promised a two faction waring setting, Bioware is at least honest unlike Cryptic. I hope I'm wrong as I'm still not sure the difference between the PvP servers and the PvE.
Final episode season 1 of "Game of Thrones" is on....Gotta go.