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Why doesn't CCP actively pursue botters?

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  • BlackWatchBlackWatch Member UncommonPosts: 972

    Originally posted by Teala

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Teala

     

    I just don't see it happening.



     

    Malcanis already pointed out that Captcha isn't an obstacle for bots for some time already, the fact you don't see it only means you need to educate yourself on the topic.



    Things seem simple when you only know little to make flawed claims but still too ignorant to realize the complexity of the issue...

    Explain how a program can be written to overcome a captcha and I'll concede.

     http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~mori/research/gimpy/

    It appears that captcha can be overcome? 

    image

  • MaelkorMaelkor Member UncommonPosts: 459

    As someone else said make mine botting part of the game. This is the least intrusive/annoying way to solve the problem. Take mining lasers off of normal ships. Create a mining drone ship( Yes I know there are mining drones allready but thing bigger). Make a new set of skills that allows a person to control these bigger drones and give them more capabilities. Then allow an player to drop them wherever they want to in game to mine whatever they want them to mine storing the ore in containers or parked ships. Make the efficiency of the system based of a skill set. If you want to leave your drones undefended and go off somewhere else you can. Left undefended the drones wouuld be easy picking for players or npcs unless they are in high security. Then further downgrade and limit the ore available in high security space making all the good stuff further down the line where its easier for people to kill miners.

     

    Going this route causes much few headaches, matches the lore of the game in the sense of Sci-fi space drones etc and would have a similar effect that being able to buy and sell Plex in game has. If you cant beat em join em sort of thing...make it official and the unofficial stuff dies away as being too risky and not needed.

  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by BlackWatch

    Originally posted by Teala


    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Teala

     

    I just don't see it happening.



     

    Malcanis already pointed out that Captcha isn't an obstacle for bots for some time already, the fact you don't see it only means you need to educate yourself on the topic.



    Things seem simple when you only know little to make flawed claims but still too ignorant to realize the complexity of the issue...

    Explain how a program can be written to overcome a captcha and I'll concede.

     http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~mori/research/gimpy/

    It appears that captcha can be overcome? 

    That may work on simple captcha, but not the one I came up with.  Let me post a pic of it.   Then you tell me if you still think a program can work to overcome it.  Oh and if it does that means, that the person would ahve to alter the EVE game code.  That would be against the terms of service and detectable...which would be grounds for banning and not just kciking you temporarily from the game.

  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by Maelkor

    As someone else said make mine botting part of the game. This is the least intrusive/annoying way to solve the problem. Take mining lasers off of normal ships. Create a mining drone ship( Yes I know there are mining drones allready but thing bigger). Make a new set of skills that allows a person to control these bigger drones and give them more capabilities. Then allow an player to drop them wherever they want to in game to mine whatever they want them to mine storing the ore in containers or parked ships. Make the efficiency of the system based of a skill set. If you want to leave your drones undefended and go off somewhere else you can. Left undefended the drones wouuld be easy picking for players or npcs unless they are in high security. Then further downgrade and limit the ore available in high security space making all the good stuff further down the line where its easier for people to kill miners.

     

    Going this route causes much few headaches, matches the lore of the game in the sense of Sci-fi space drones etc and would have a similar effect that being able to buy and sell Plex in game has. If you cant beat em join em sort of thing...make it official and the unofficial stuff dies away as being too risky and not needed.

    Wrong answer.  Giving into cheaters is never the right answer.

  • AstralglideAstralglide Member UncommonPosts: 686

    Originally posted by BlackWatch

    Originally posted by Teala


    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Teala

     

    I just don't see it happening.



     

    Malcanis already pointed out that Captcha isn't an obstacle for bots for some time already, the fact you don't see it only means you need to educate yourself on the topic.



    Things seem simple when you only know little to make flawed claims but still too ignorant to realize the complexity of the issue...

    Explain how a program can be written to overcome a captcha and I'll concede.

     http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~mori/research/gimpy/

    It appears that captcha can be overcome? 

    Except that I've used programs that are supposed to detect captcha and enter in the characters for you (jdownloader.org) and have little success with them.

     

    Not that I'm saying we should have auto-captcha randomly- players will probably get the botters in lo-sec and null sec and the only safe minings spots would be .7-.9

     

    Somebody should form a bot-killing Corp

    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire

  • GreenzorGreenzor Member Posts: 165

     

     


     

    This thread is already outdated.They're actively hunting down botters and bot dealers and they hired additional staff for that matter. you might want to check:

    http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/ccps-war-on-bots-roid-ripper-epilogue.html

    or

    http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1492296

     

    I don't know if you are misinformed or just a plain troll.


     
  • NicoliNicoli Member Posts: 1,312

    Originally posted by Teala

    That may work on simple captcha, but not the one I came up with.  Let me post a pic of it.   Then you tell me if you still think a program can work to overcome it.  Oh and if it does that means, that the person would ahve to alter the EVE game code.  That would be against the terms of service and detectable...which would be grounds for banning and not just kciking you temporarily from the game.

    Computers can read my hand writting... most humans can't read my hand writing... The only way to make it so that a computer can't reliably read it is to make it so humans can't reliably read it. Its why most captchas now have a "get another picture" button because real people have a hard time making the crap out. While I'm not a computer programmer so can't give you the specifics there are tons of programs out there that can Detect the box, use the mouse, and read captcha. Its just a matter of combining those three things and your system is now only an annoyance to real people who want to mine. none of that would require any editing of the source code and would be undectable with the exception of CCP running an active process scan on your computer which would cause far more uproar then bots ever do.

  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by Nicoli

    Originally posted by Teala



    That may work on simple captcha, but not the one I came up with.  Let me post a pic of it.   Then you tell me if you still think a program can work to overcome it.  Oh and if it does that means, that the person would ahve to alter the EVE game code.  That would be against the terms of service and detectable...which would be grounds for banning and not just kciking you temporarily from the game.

    Computers can read my hand writting... most humans can't read my hand writing... The only way to make it so that a computer can't reliably read it is to make it so humans can't reliably read it. Its why most captchas now have a "get another picture" button because real people have a hard time making the crap out. While I'm not a computer programmer so can't give you the specifics there are tons of programs out there that can Detect the box, use the mouse, and read captcha. Its just a matter of combining those three things and your system is now only an annoyance to real people who want to mine. none of that would require any editing of the source code and would be undectable with the exception of CCP running an active process scan on your computer which would cause far more uproar then bots ever do.

    Still working on an image to show how mine would work.   Have it up shortly.  In the mean time I wiould like to reply to your argument.   First, if they are an active miner, they shouldn't mind responding to a simple thing as this every once in awhile.   It's not like it would happen every 5 minutes.

    Second, the only people that would find this annoying is people that run a botting program.  As for programs being written to override captcha.   It only works for certain captcha, not all.  Some captcha is actually quite successful, especially ones that require a person to input certain words from a from a sentence that is displayed on the screen.  :)   So despite all the people against a captcha system, it would work.  

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by NicoliComputers can read my hand writting... most humans can't read my hand writing... The only way to make it so that a computer can't reliably read it is to make it so humans can't reliably read it. Its why most captchas now have a "get another picture" button because real people have a hard time making the crap out. While I'm not a computer programmer so can't give you the specifics there are tons of programs out there that can Detect the box, use the mouse, and read captcha. Its just a matter of combining those three things and your system is now only an annoyance to real people who want to mine. none of that would require any editing of the source code and would be undectable with the exception of CCP running an active process scan on your computer which would cause far more uproar then bots ever do.

    Spot on.

    Anyone remember the cats on rapidshare CAPTCHA?

    Newer/different versions of CAPTCHA are using various distortions, stakes and crap to make it harder to read for OCR techniques but they are still pretty successfully crackable.

    You can always reverse engineer the distortions.


    Then there were added those puzzles that again are not difficult to bypass.

    This type of thinking is just dead end and no good.

  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by Greenzor

     

     


     

    This thread is already outdated.They're actively hunting down botters and bot dealers and they hired additional staff for that matter. you might want to check:

    http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/ccps-war-on-bots-roid-ripper-epilogue.html

    or

    http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1492296

     

    I don't know if you are misinformed or just a plain troll.


     

    I see nothing in game to indicate that this is actually having any effect.   Especially when so many players bot in the game.   I know the systems I frequent have botters.   They are on from the time the game comes back up until it shuts down for maintenance.  How do I know this?  Because it is the same people always and it doesn't matter when I sign on.   Their ships are running 24/7 just mining.   If you followthem they do a pattern.  The same pattern each and everytime.   Same roid field, start with the same roids and work their way around.  Then move to the next field.   They never respond to chat.   They sometimes have weird names like tefgh or ffdy.   These are botters plain and simple and yes I have reported them and others in the past.

  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Nicoli

     

    Computers can read my hand writting... most humans can't read my hand writing... The only way to make it so that a computer can't reliably read it is to make it so humans can't reliably read it. Its why most captchas now have a "get another picture" button because real people have a hard time making the crap out. While I'm not a computer programmer so can't give you the specifics there are tons of programs out there that can Detect the box, use the mouse, and read captcha. Its just a matter of combining those three things and your system is now only an annoyance to real people who want to mine. none of that would require any editing of the source code and would be undectable with the exception of CCP running an active process scan on your computer which would cause far more uproar then bots ever do.



     

    Spot on.

    Anyone remember the cats on rapidshare CAPTCHA?

     

    Newer/different versions of CAPTCHA are using various distortions, stakes and crap to make it harder to read for OCR techniques but they are still pretty successfully crackable.

    You can always reverse engineer the distortions.



    Then there were added those puzzles that again are not difficult to bypass.

     

     

    This type of thinking is just dead end and no good.

    Do you mine?

  • cosycosy Member UncommonPosts: 3,228
    there is a thing called principle of justice that say something like this "before putting a innocent in jail is better to let 1000 criminals unpunished"

    Originally posted by Teala

    Simple fix...
    Have a captcha set of numbers and letters appear in boxes. Anywhere from 5 to 10 randomly generated. They would appear in boxes that require you to mouse over them to see what letter or number is in the box. You must then input the number or appropriate letter in a matching box. These captcha type checks would not appear at a given time - say every 30 minutes or every 10 minutes, but would also be random. It might be an hour in between when they check would come up. It might be 10 minutes the first time, then 30 minutes another, than 15 minutes later and then an hour. If a player doesn't respond in a given amount of time it kicks you from the game. It would be for miners only. It would never appear if you are engaged in fighting NPC rats who are attacking your vessel or vessels. It would only randomly appear while just mining.
    The captcha boxes would never appear in the same place on the screen. It would also be randomly placed. If I need to do a sample image of what I am talkig about to better explain it - I can do that.
    As I said, it's not rocket science. it's just a simple program that can be written and implemented by a half-way decent coder and put into the game.
    Fixed. Problem solved.

    any solution that dont target only the boters but instead will target all the users is r******d, is like proof of existing, "hey there are aliens on our planet the only way to get them is to force everyone to prove that they are humans"

    BestSigEver :P
    image

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004

    Originally posted by Teala

    Originally posted by Greenzor

     

     


     

    This thread is already outdated.They're actively hunting down botters and bot dealers and they hired additional staff for that matter. you might want to check:

    http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/ccps-war-on-bots-roid-ripper-epilogue.html

    or

    http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1492296

     

    I don't know if you are misinformed or just a plain troll.


     

    I see nothing in game to indicate that this is actually having any effect.   Especially when so many players bot in the game.   I know the systems I frequent have botters.   They are on from the time the game comes back up until it shuts down for maintenance.  How do I know this?  Because it is the same people always and it doesn't matter when I sign on.   Their ships are running 24/7 just mining.   If you followthem they do a pattern.  The same pattern each and everytime.   Same roid field, start with the same roids and work their way around.  Then move to the next field.   They never respond to chat.   They sometimes have weird names like tefgh or ffdy.   These are botters plain and simple and yes I have reported them and others in the past.

    Maybe the solution (which I think I've read somewhere) is to make asteroid fields spawn randomly within the system,forcing the player to actively scan for them in a manner that a bot program could not easily emulate?

    Just a thought.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • KalafaxKalafax Member UncommonPosts: 571

    What you described as botting is pretty much what I do anytime I mine, start at one roid and go thru the entire field, I dont speak to anyone, cause theres no need for me to. Most people who do serious mining usualy have something else to occupy their time inbetween roid switching, depositing minerals, and hauling, so arnt watching chat and wont respond alot of the time even when they are.

    I'm not saying there arnt botters that make this stuff an issue( Tho I havent ran into any ), Its just plain not safe talking to unknown people in EVE alot of the time, especially if your mining something worth a decent amount of money, generally your mining with a few friends in cloaked ships near you and if anyone whos not part of my corp shows up I'm in high alert cause they could be other miners which I dont want in my belt, or they could be spys for a ganking party, or they themselves could be the pirate. Not to mention your talking a game that has Hulkaggedon, which is a player made holiday specificly created to go around and destroy any and all Miners and Haulers that you find. Would you want to broadcast yourself?

    Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  • kattehuskattehus Member UncommonPosts: 375

    Just wanted to add that mining and ratting/missioning isn't the only area where botting appears.

    PI, the markets, and generally all the mudane tasks are being exploited by bots.

    There's few ways to avoid it, and most of the ways would piss off the non-botting players.

    Oh, and some botters are smarter than to let their bot do the same exact thing every time the program runs. Some implement certain random events (timing, what roids, etc.), to make it harder to detect them.

    There's also some who will respond in chat (with automated messages, or similar).

    And then there's the fact that there are miners (and players in other areas) who will do almost the exact same thing as bots. Not responding in chats, going after certain roids first, etc..

    Edit:

    Also, Teala, it doesn't matter how your system would work, wether or not the mouse would have to be above it or something. It'd take the bot-programmers a relatively short amount of time before they'd have a way to work it out.

    Every time there's something to avoid bots (or hacks, or whatever, really), there'll be programmers who'll try to crack it. It's a constant war, and so far, it would seem like it's the bad* people who are winning. (just have a look at the p2p scene)

     

    *Not all people who try to exploit security etc. are "bad". Some are pentesters and similar. (;


    |< I 1 1 I |\| 6 _ Z 0 |\/| 8 I 3 5 _ 5 I |\| C 3 _ 1 9 9 0
    -Actively playing Eve.
    Follow my tweet (:
  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Wow...from what I am thinking, based on some of the responses, you people either do not care or are against finding a solution.   If I had to guess I would think that many of you actively bot.  Just saying.

  • kattehuskattehus Member UncommonPosts: 375

    Originally posted by Teala

    Wow...from what I am thinking, based on some of the responses, you people either do not care or are against finding a solution.   If I had to guess I would think that many of you actively bot.  Just saying.

    You think whatever you want to think.

    We do care, and we want to find a solution. But there's a reason there hasn't been found a solution yet. The gaming (/entertainment/computer/...) industry have had years to find a solution. Things have been tried. What has it done? Annoyed legitimate customers. Created thousand-page long EULA's.

    Bots are a big problem in every online game, always have been. There are only so many ways to try and deal with the problem, but you have to weigh the pros and cons.

    Pissing off legitimate customers is heavy on the con-side of that weight.


    |< I 1 1 I |\| 6 _ Z 0 |\/| 8 I 3 5 _ 5 I |\| C 3 _ 1 9 9 0
    -Actively playing Eve.
    Follow my tweet (:
  • Reverb22Reverb22 Member Posts: 5

    Its not that people are botting or the like its the point that when you can find a way to successfully identify a bot from a player then we will discuss this further cause I personally would love to see you come  up with an effective method that CCP hasn't already tried. Most of us have played long enough in the MMO market to understand nothing you do prevents botters just slows them down. Fyi captcha's have been cracked since early 2005 thats not new technology and doesn't take a brain surgeon to crack that stupid crap. Hell we used to run click bots that could bypass captcha's for votes on private servers for wow. Thats how we made our money by boosting our server higher on the list and getting more players. Come back when you find another way to stop botting but captcha's are garbage and the easiest thing to break. Learn coding and learn the intricacy's of botting and scripting before you try to think of a way to block them cause all your captcha does is block script kiddies.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by Teala

    Do you mine?

    Are you making any point and have a backup to anything you said so far?

  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by kattehus

    Originally posted by Teala

    Wow...from what I am thinking, based on some of the responses, you people either do not care or are against finding a solution.   If I had to guess I would think that many of you actively bot.  Just saying.

    You think whatever you want to think.

    We do care, and we want to find a solution. But there's a reason there hasn't been found a solution yet. The gaming (/entertainment/computer/...) industry have had years to find a solution. Things have been tried. What has it done? Annoyed legitimate customers. Created thousand-page long EULA's.

    Bots are a big problem in every online game, always have been. There are only so many ways to try and deal with the problem, but you have to weigh the pros and cons.

    Pissing off legitimate customers is heavy on the con-side of that weight.

    How is having to respond once in awhile to input a sequence of numbers and letters annoying?  Seriously..is it really going to hurt your game play if every now and then you have to type in a few numbers?

  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Teala



    Do you mine?




     

    Are you making any point and have a backup to anything you said so far?

    I asked a simple question and if you do not mind I would like an answer.  If that is OK with you?

  • NoobkilarNoobkilar Member Posts: 175

     They allow them 30 days then they ban them usually to provide a constant income as they just make new accounts and subscribe. Thus giving ccp a easy income off them as well and in return they allow the botters to make a bit to keep the bait and hook in.

     I was one of the most active killers of botters in 0.0, then I would turn them in and see them right back not long after so I made a deal with the botters to rat in return for billions of isk a month. As ccp didn't do much to keep them banned and I spoke to one gm on msn and that was basically the excuse to keep them around.......replenishing income off them.

  • Reverb22Reverb22 Member Posts: 5

    Im still waiting for this unbreakable captcha he was talking about cause i would love to break it within 24 hours to show him how useless they really are.

  • kattehuskattehus Member UncommonPosts: 375

    Originally posted by Teala

    How is having to respond once in awhile to input a sequence of numbers and letters annoying?  Seriously..is it really going to hurt your game play if every now and then you have to type in a few numbers?

    Well, I'm already annoyed at having to punch in a captcha whenever I want to create a user, or something similar (like forgetting my pwd). So yeah, it's really going to hurt my gameplay if every now and then I have to type in a few numbers.

    It'd also annoy the hell out of me that I'd not be able to afk-mine. And then there's ice-mining where, even if you're at the computer, it takes ages for a cycle to complete.

    And - again - captcha's are easily bypassed. I can write a java-program which will break a captcha in O(n^2) time. If I bothered, I could probably optimize that algorithm to run in O(n) or less. Having to add a "mouse-control" is easy. Adding "random chatter" is relatively easy as well (look at the numerous amounts of chat-bots who "learn" that exist already).

    Btw. I don't mine. I used to, however.


    |< I 1 1 I |\| 6 _ Z 0 |\/| 8 I 3 5 _ 5 I |\| C 3 _ 1 9 9 0
    -Actively playing Eve.
    Follow my tweet (:
  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    You know what I can concede an argument when I am talking with people that actually care to find a solution. {mod edit}   All you wishto do it seems is toss up arguments that it would be a hassle to have to input a few numbers once in awhile, or that captcha can easily be overcome using a program.    So you know what I give up talking about his here.   So you have a nice day and I'll go about my business of trying to figure out a way to make this issue a non-issue and help players that legitmately play as miners by other means and avenues.

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