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Problem with the classes, and how having advanced class is useless

nomssnomss Member UncommonPosts: 1,468

I usually play DD, CC or tank. Healer is just not my thing.

So I pick a class, once I get to pick my advance class I'm most likely to follow through building my DD, CC, or tank. So even though I'm given healer option I have choosen not to. I mean duh someone whose picked DD to start with is likely to follow through with DD. I'm pretty sure this applies to pretty much any player.

What I'm trying to say is: at the end of the day we are still short on the healers or tanks.

How does having advance class option solves this problem? Unless you tell me that I can pick DD and my advance could be healer and I am on the same par as the guy whose picked DD and DD for his advance class.

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Comments

  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,401

    Originally posted by nomss

    I usually play DD, CC or tank. Healer is just not my thing.

    So I pick a class, once I get to pick my advance class I'm most likely to follow through building my DD, CC, or tank. So even though I'm given healer option I have choosen not to. I mean duh someone whose picked DD to start with is likely to follow through with DD. I'm pretty sure this applies to pretty much any player.

    What I'm trying to say is: at the end of the day we are still short on the healers or tanks.

    How does having advance class option solves this problem? Unless you tell me that I can pick DD and my advance could be healer and I am on the same par as the guy whose picked DD and DD for his advance class.

    A lot of players are selfish, so they will choose DD for sure when they could be a tank or healer.

    There is no concrete info saying a class that can be a healer but chooses to be a DD as advanced will have equal dd abilities.  That sounds like we will learn more closer to launch.

    That said, I can't see them putting them so far behind that you'd always want just a "main" DD class".

    The addition of companions can help remove the issue of everyone wanting to only DPS like most games.  There are supposed to be tank and healer companions.  Having the option to choose to be a tank/healer/dps as an advanced class solves it about as much as making every class able to heal.  If people don't want to do it, they won't. Simple as that.

  • goblagobla Member UncommonPosts: 1,412

    Originally posted by nomss

    I usually play DD, CC or tank. Healer is just not my thing.

    So I pick a class, once I get to pick my advance class I'm most likely to follow through building my DD, CC, or tank. So even though I'm given healer option I have choosen not to. I mean duh someone whose picked DD to start with is likely to follow through with DD. I'm pretty sure this applies to pretty much any player.

    What I'm trying to say is: at the end of the day we are still short on the healers or tanks.

    How does having advance class option solves this problem? Unless you tell me that I can pick DD and my advance could be healer and I am on the same par as the guy whose picked DD and DD for his advance class.

    There's no Healer, CC, Tank or DD advanced class. Each advanced class fills multiple roles.

    Most advanced classes feature both damage, CC and either tank or healer. You can't pick either a healer or tank advanced class without also having picked an advanced class that can DPS and CC. Every advanced class does DPS. So yes, you can pick a healer advanced class and be on the same par as the guy who picked DD for his advanced class. You just have to spec into your damage tree instead of your healer tree.

    In fact from what we hear from the beta at one time the strongest DPS class was the Jedi Seer, a class that could also spec as a healer.

    At present there's no dual spec option but it's something they're considering to add should it be needed, so right now you'd have to respec if you wish to switch roles.

    It doesn't fully solve the problem but it does give players the option to respec to fill roles that their friends can not without having to level up an alt or inviting a stranger.

    It will also have to be seen how strong healer companions are. Bioware has stated that while taking companions into flashpoints does make them a lot harder it doesn't make them impossible. It may be viable to take a well coordinated group of 3 plus a single healing companion and still finish flashpoints.

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  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085

    OP, you dont make any sense at all.

    It looks like you actually thought the information on Wikipedia had anything to do with what will be in the game. Well, anything written there is utter b.s and when I tried fixing it, I got the information I would destroy the page and thats not allowed.

    So please first inform yourself about the class system in the official forum. Sadly its currently down, otherwise I would have linked the currently known facts thread.

  • GMan3GMan3 Member CommonPosts: 2,127

        I think I can understand where the OP is going with this, the only problem is I like the way it is being handled.  You start out with a DPS class and you probably will stay DPS, but the thing about the advanced classes is that they give you the option to broaden your horizens a little.

        Personally though I like my healer.  I generally will have a character on any game I play that is almost solely a support healer.  The Companion system allows me to not only have my healer now, but to still solo him without it taking forever to do so.  I can also spread out a little in my advanced class skill trees and do a little more damage myself, which never hurts.

        All in all, I think this combination of Advanced Classes AND Companions is an amazing idea.  Unfortunately, I still have to wait to find out if I am right.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • ormstungaormstunga Member Posts: 736

    Wait so advanced classes are to blame for not fixing what is actually a problem in every single MMO with damage, tank, healer trinity.... the lack of tanks and healers. Wow jeez, didnt realize

  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034

    If i understood their system well in every main class you can unfold to any type or role with your advanced classes. That mean a jedi can go for all the healer/tank/dps role when they become advanced. I think they did that so that if you really want to play a jedi for exemple and nothing else as it will most likely be for that ip, you are not obliged to be a dd for exemple, but can be healer or tank as well. You can be all those roles as a jedi, you just have to choose which role you like when make your choices during character progression.

    If i'm wrong just tell me, but i think i got it right.

  • GMan3GMan3 Member CommonPosts: 2,127

    Originally posted by Requiamer

    If i understood their system well in every main class you can unfold to any type or role with your advanced classes. That mean a jedi can go for all the healer/tank/dps role when they become advanced. I think they did that so that if you really want to play a jedi for exemple and nothing else as it will most likely be for that ip, you are not obliged to be a dd for exemple, but can be healer or tank as well. You can be all those roles as a jedi, you just have to choose which role you like when make your choices during character progression.

    If i'm wrong just tell me, but i think i got it right.

         I think you hit the nail pretty squarely on the head except that from all surveys done so far, as well as a little of the testing data released, it is looking like a pretty good division of classes is resulting.  Amazingly enough, not everyone wants to be a Jedi or a Sith for that matter.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • XxGrimmxXXxGrimmxX Member UncommonPosts: 223

    ROFL I hope you are joking OP. You are right.. all DD classes should be all the same for everyone, no diversity. All Tanks should all be the same.. It makes perfect sense.. Why not just take out all the armor and just have 3 armor sets.. a starter set, a higher level set, and a max set.. After all I love looking like everyone else..


  • Originally posted by Requiamer

    If i understood their system well in every main class you can unfold to any type or role with your advanced classes. That mean a jedi can go for all the healer/tank/dps role when they become advanced. I think they did that so that if you really want to play a jedi for exemple and nothing else as it will most likely be for that ip, you are not obliged to be a dd for exemple, but can be healer or tank as well. You can be all those roles as a jedi, you just have to choose which role you like when make your choices during character progression.

    If i'm wrong just tell me, but i think i got it right.

    advanced classes basic breakdown as followed:

    Trooper

    commando - dps, healer

    Vanguard - dps, tank

     

    Jedi Knight

    Sentinel - dps

    Gaurdian - dps, tank

     

    Jedi consular

    Sage - dps, healer

    Shadow - dps, tank

     

    Smuggler

    Scoundrel - dps, heal

    Gunslinger - dps(focuses on cover abilities)

     

    Sith Warrior

    Juggernaut - dps, tank

    Marauder - dps

     

    Sith Inquistor

    Sorcerer - dps, healer

    Assassin - dps, tank

     

    Bounty Hunter

    Power Tech - dps, tank

    Mercenary - dps, healer

     

    Imperial Agent

    Operative - dps, healer

    Sniper - dps (focuses on cover abilities)

     

    so not every class has the option of having any of the 3 trinity roles.  and not of a single advanced class has the option for all three.    At this time, it has been stated by bioware, you can respec within an advanced class by paying credits to an npc on your factions capital planet.  They have not decided yet whether to allow advanced classes to be changed however it is heavily leaning torwards that happening.  They have said that if they do allow it, it will come at a heavy cost, what that cost will beis unknown.

  • nomssnomss Member UncommonPosts: 1,468

    Originally posted by ormstunga

    Wait so advanced classes are to blame for not fixing what is actually a problem in every single MMO with damage, tank, healer trinity.... the lack of tanks and healers. Wow jeez, didnt realize

    This is what BW says. They want to try to fix this problem, the lack of healer or tanks by introducing advance class and letting many class have healing trees.

    I'm saying it is not going to fix the problem. Above post made a good point that if someone does not want to be a healer, then they won't no matter but.

    I forgot to mention is that I could choose to heal if there was no option. Say my main is DD and then in advance if I could pick DD and healer, 2 advance classes and upon need I could change to healer with one click.

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by nomss

    Originally posted by ormstunga

    Wait so advanced classes are to blame for not fixing what is actually a problem in every single MMO with damage, tank, healer trinity.... the lack of tanks and healers. Wow jeez, didnt realize

    This is what BW says. They want to try to fix this problem, the lack of healer or tanks by introducing advance class and letting many class have healing trees.

    I'm saying it is not going to fix the problem. Above post made a good point that if someone does not want to be a healer, then they won't no matter but.

    I forgot to mention is that I could choose to heal if there was no option. Say my main is DD and then in advance if I could pick DD and healer, 2 advance classes and upon need I could change to healer with one click.

     Currently, there is no dual spec. You would have to pay to respec within a class. No changing Advanced Class currently, but it could change.

     

    Because of the unique story for each class. You may want to pick a class based on that story you want to play out in TOR. So the advanced class will give you the ability to still have a choice of DPS (range or melee with stealth), tank (melee or range) and healer (direct heals or tech based heals).

     

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085

    Originally posted by gaou

    [...]  They have not decided yet whether to allow advanced classes to be changed however it is heavily leaning torwards that happening.  [...]

    No, its not.

    And changing AC would also require completely switching your gear completely around, much worse than just a skilling change.

    For example, a Shadow switching to Sage would have no use for his saberstaff at all any more.

    While a Shadow switching from tank specialization to balanced specialization (combined lightsaber and force damage dealer) would be more inefficient (as his gear would favor defense instead of offense) but not completely in need of new gear.

  • FactFact Member UncommonPosts: 82

    Originally posted by Swanea

    A lot of players are selfish, so they will choose DD for sure when they could be a tank or healer.

    I don't understand why it's selfish to choose a damage dealing class at all...

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    Not really a problem. That is why you have guilds to sort those healers and tanks out.

    Plus I know quite a few players who actually enjoy being healers.

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    Originally posted by Fact

    Originally posted by Swanea

    A lot of players are selfish, so they will choose DD for sure when they could be a tank or healer.

    I don't understand why it's selfish to choose a damage dealing class at all...

    I just get a feeling he lacks social skills or a PROPER guild experience.

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • MaelkorMaelkor Member UncommonPosts: 459

    Every player has a different play style. Any system which can allow a player to get closer to their preferred play style is better than one that does not. In the op's opening remarks he makes the assumption that everyone wants to play exactly like him. I on the other hand usually like a mix of either DD/Healing or CC/DD CC/Healing. I do not need to min/max my character for solo play as I usually prefer to find guilds that do lots of group play and prefer a character that has a strong group role.

    Of course that preference is what bugs me most about most of the current games in that they cater primarily to solo play as the leveling mechanism only throwing in decent group play for end game. I almost always quit such games before i reach end game.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085

    Guys, can you PLEASE stop babbling about stuff you dont understand at all ? Because many here really do just that.

    PLEASE first read the known facts thread in the official forum before you embarass yourself with riddiculous postings like this one:

     

     


    Originally posted by nomss

    This is what BW says. They want to try to fix this problem, the lack of healer or tanks by introducing advance class and letting many class have healing trees.

    I'm saying it is not going to fix the problem. Above post made a good point that if someone does not want to be a healer, then they won't no matter but.

    I forgot to mention is that I could choose to heal if there was no option. Say my main is DD and then in advance if I could pick DD and healer, 2 advance classes and upon need I could change to healer with one click.

    This is wrong in embarassing amounts.

    For example: Advanced classes are just classes. Nothing else.

    They do not cause any problem. They are just named in a confusing way so people think they're something special, but they really arent.

    From level 1 to 10 you are a [starter] "class".

    Then you choose your real, true, effective, actual "advanced class" (commonly abbreviated as "AC"). Each starter class splits into two different ACs.

    You will keep that AC from level 10 to maxlevel (currently 50).

    EVERYONE has an AC. Everyone but total newbies will have an AC. There is really nothing advanced about ACs. You may spend some hours in the game without an AC, but afterwards you will already have it and never again be without it.

    And thats all. AC is your class. Nothing else. Its absolutely nothing special whatsoever and it especially doesnt cause or solves any problems.

    Especially ACs themselves do NOT state if you're a healer, tank or damage dealer. They just give you further options. For example, many ACs offer a skilltree for either healer or tank (never both) that you can focus on to turn yourself into a full healer or a full tank. If you focus on other skilltrees, however, you WONT be tank or healer.

    People who have played Lineage 2 will instantly recognize this concept. In Lineage 2, you for example start as a "Darkelf Mystic" (a generic spellcasting starter class), then you progress to either a Shillien Elder (a Healer) or a Spellhowler (a Mage) or a Phantom Summoner (a pet mage class). Nobody of the Lineage 2 gamers thinks of Shillen Elder, Spellhowler or Phantom Summoner as being anything "advanced". Its just the class you play.

    TOR uses the same basic idea.

     

    So PLEASE: Check out the known facts thread in the official forum ! Stop talking utter b.s. and inform yourself about the issue before you discuss it.

  • MarlonBMarlonB Member UncommonPosts: 526

    What bugs me most ... and probably am being spoiled by dual specs and Rift Roles ... is that i can't have multiple specs within 1 advanced class. I would want a tank, healing and hybrid build so it's easier to create groups.

     

    That's a very strong feature in Rift ... it's easy to get a group rolling as everyone can furfill different roles.

    When always playing with the same people, if 2 are tank it's brilliant if one can decide to switch to dps so that you are still viable as a group and can play together.

  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    Originally posted by MarlonB

    What bugs me most ... and probably am being spoiled by dual specs and Rift Roles ... is that i can't have multiple specs within 1 advanced class. I would want a tank, healing and hybrid build so it's easier to create groups.

     

    That's a very strong feature in Rift ... it's easy to get a group rolling as everyone can furfill different roles.

    When always playing with the same people, if 2 are tank it's brilliant if one can decide to switch to dps so that you are still viable as a group and can play together.

    Pretty sure they stated, for a nominal fee.  You can switch to another type, like respec your points so that you're skills are more intune with a dps rather then a tank or even a healer. Provided the class/advance class allowed for such roles to begin with.  Here is a short list of what each class/advance class can be. Provided  you have to most likely return back to a trainer, undo the points for a fee then reaccolate them.

    Jedi Knight - Melee DPS or Tank

    Jedi Consular - Burst Melee DPS, Ranged DPS,Tank or Healer

    Smuggler - Ranged DPS, Burst Ranged DPS or Healer

    Trooper - Ranged DPS, Ranged Tank or Healer



    Sith Warrior - Melee DPS or Tank

    Sith Inquisitor - Burst Melee DPS, Ranged DPS,Tank or Healer

    Imperial Agent - Ranged DPS, Burst Ranged DPS or Healer

    Bounty Hunter - Ranged DPS, Ranged Tank or Healer

     

    For example Lets say your a Trooper, and you've spec into tank role,  Now assuming again that the healer abilities is not in the other advance class you could...return back to the trainer. Pay a fee, then respec so that your healing capabilities are much higher thus allowing you to become a healer.

     

    Basically each class has before they advance at level 10 one of two ways they can go. If they pick one they get access to the one they picked (extreme left or extreme right) and the middle tree. If the tank role is in the left tree and the healer is in the middle they could mix and match these to either have a full on tank, full on healer or a combination of the two ala the paladin if they so choose.  The only thing they can't do at the moment is get any skills from the far right tree.

    They have also hinted at allowing you to switch advance classes (which would allow you access to the right tree but lose the left), but have said if they do this it will be very expensive.  Thus making the choice more impactful.  They are also looking into duel specs but that agian sounds like something that will not be in at launch...if ever.

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  • MarlonBMarlonB Member UncommonPosts: 526

    Thanks Whilan for the detailed explanation.

     

    However, I am really spoiled image

    I actually meant switching on the fly with no cost. The ability to save 2 or 3 specs within 1 advanced class, where it also remembers your toolbar layout per spec.

     

    It's a drag, a timesink (and money) to find a trainer .. reset your spec ... reselect all the new skills in the trees  ... lay them out on your toolbar ... etc. Why force us to go through these delays?

  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    The devs have said they are looking into duel specs right now but as it stands yeah you have to go through all that to respec.  How long it will take, how much it will cost, and how often you'll need to do this is still unknown.  I guess it gives more impact to the choices you make for your skills.

    Remember also though you have companions with can augment your way of playing.  If you had a dps pet and your a tank full on, you can switch out your tank companion and bring in your healer one to give you some healing abilities so that may lessen the amount of time you have to keep switching to be viable.

    Plus we have to remember that we are suppose to be in a sci-fi setting so there might be quick ways back to town.  Until then though it stands that you have to return to your trainer and reset your abilities. That is until they decide wether duel specs is something they want in their game.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

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  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034

    Ye Whilan is right, they wanted the choice to mean something, which is a moto for Bioware in all their game, so you have to respect that.

    And as Whilan said its more the companion that is there to fix that lack of healer/tank or whatever if you set a quick group. They said you will be able to make very small group with companions and do fine, we will see. They even said they reinforced the companions for that purpose.

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    Originally posted by nomss

    I usually play DD, CC or tank. Healer is just not my thing.

    So I pick a class, once I get to pick my advance class I'm most likely to follow through building my DD, CC, or tank. So even though I'm given healer option I have choosen not to. I mean duh someone whose picked DD to start with is likely to follow through with DD. I'm pretty sure this applies to pretty much any player.

    What I'm trying to say is: at the end of the day we are still short on the healers or tanks.

    How does having advance class option solves this problem? Unless you tell me that I can pick DD and my advance could be healer and I am on the same par as the guy whose picked DD and DD for his advance class.

    What made you think the purpose of adv. classes was to alleviate healer / tank issues? They're there to give more gameplay customization options in general.

    And they'll certainly help with the shortages up to a point, especially because some of the most iconic classes will be able to tank or heal.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • alakramalakram Member UncommonPosts: 2,301

    You can be a Jedi and make crowd control or be a trooper and heal, this system is not trying to fix anything, is trying to give options to the players. For me it looks awesome.



  • AnthurAnthur Member UncommonPosts: 961

    I foresee the same destiny for SWTORS advanced class system as what happened to EQ2's inital class system. It will be dropped quite soon and you will choose your advanced class at char creation.

    In EQ2 you had something quite similiar at release.

    First you were a priest, at lvl 10 you had to specialize in druid/cleric/shaman, then at lvl 20 the cleric for example had to specialize further into templar/inquisitor.

    They all were healers with different options. An inquistor for example was a little stronger on the dps and debuff side than a templar. Templar was a little stronger at healing. That of course changed also overtime.

    Same for fighter, scouts, mages.

    But SOE dropped it and everyone had to choose his final class at char creation. I liked the old system. But most people seem to be confused by too many choices. They like it simple... unfortunately...

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