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The "WoW" buzzword

mm0wigginsmm0wiggins Member Posts: 270

You guys need to get past this fear of using WoW in any context.    The fact is, it's the biggest player on the field, and to turn away and act like it's not is just denial and foolishness.

You think there's ANY MMO developers or executives or investors that can have a meeting without mentioning WoW?  

You think any new MMO project being discussed anywhere in the industry can go full length without someone mentioning WoW?   

You business-minded people who are so enthralled with the financial side, forgetting that you're gamers FIRST should know this more than anyone.    It's the way it is.   WoW is the biggest, most successful MMO in history, and it's still going, and it's still dominating, and it's still got more subs, etc etc etc etc.... until that changes, you should not get offended whenever someone compares features to WoW, and stop getting offended when someone says "wow-clone"  and stop gasping when someone says "it does just like WoW did" .    

Can you talk about FPS without mentioning Call of Duty?   or Halo?     (bring on the exceptionists... *sigh*)  no, you can't.

Can you talk about operating systems without mentioning Windows?    Don't even try to say you can....

 

now, does anyone agree?

[Mod Edit]

This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.

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Comments

  • BeezerbeezBeezerbeez Member UncommonPosts: 302

    So are you saying people are ignoring WOW?  I'm not sure what behavior you're responding to.  I think most people here are looking for alternatives and support premises along those lines.  Im also realizing I just fell for the bait LOL.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,234

    imageThe OP is right. People try to shun WoW as if its not anything to think about when it comes to MMO development.

    image

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628

    Seriously, theres only like 10 people on these forums that hate WoW and dont shut up about it. The other 1.3 million forum members either keep it to themselves, dont care, or like WoW. Not really worth getting all ranty over 10 or so loudmouths.

  • IfeedtrollsIfeedtrolls Member Posts: 122

    I really don't know what you are trying to say, sorry. But I can say that WoW is now over-rated, disagree if you may. But, most of us probably played the game at one time , but it turned boring or just plain stupid. It's a good game, don't get me wrong. But  people put way to much shine on it.

  • mm0wigginsmm0wiggins Member Posts: 270

    Sorry if it was unclear.   I don't play WoW anymore, and I'm one of the "mmo vets" or whatever that wish there were more core MMOs to choose from.  Sandboxes, I guess...

    I was sort of just venting after being really annoyed with people ignoring well written posts by me and others just because the term "wow-clone" was used.    

    People get really upset for some reason when you point out the obvious.  Developer's tendancies to keep copying wow talent trees, button icons, class mechanics, combat mechanics, human/elf vs orcs, arenas, battlegrounds, lfg system/tool, etc...

     

    the response is always "well, it works! so why not copy it?  oh btw, stop using wow-clone. it's beating a dead horse.  no one is copying wow.  you're wrong.   but yeah, copy what works!"  it's just such a circular arguement and it's obvious that only the population of WoW seem to be offended when you don't praise their game.

     

    But anyways, yeah... It's a new day and I'm not in the mood to continue this thread after all.  Just wanted to clear up what appears to be a crappy OP by me.    sorry.

     

    now, off to read some exciting news on the wow-clones and how 'different' they are....

    This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.

  • GudrunixGudrunix Member Posts: 149

    The sensitivity over WoW is really due to one issue:  World of Warcraft is undeniably successful, and given that some players do not like it as a game, they resent any discussion which bears on its success as a game.

    Consequently, WoW has become something of a bad word, as a certain number of regulars here resent the very suggestion that it has done something right--a suggestion which mentioning its success, or even its mere presence, makes.  Consequently, any intelligent discussion regarding WoW gets met with a hail of criticism designed to shut down the debate.

    The simple fact, as you noted, is that WoW absolutely dominates the MMORPG space, and given that the players are paying Blizzard, not the other way around, Blizzard has done something right (or more likely, several things right).  That doesn't mean they haven't made mistakes--of course they have.  But they've done some things right, and other game companies have not figured out what that.  That is a subject that bears on many discussions here, and there is no point avoiding the "WoW" word when it is so relevant.

    Another analogy:  it would be like discussing RTSs without mentioning Starcraft, or discussing MOBAs without discussing League of Legends.  Totally pointless.

  • GudrunixGudrunix Member Posts: 149

    Originally posted by Ifeedtrolls

    I really don't know what you are trying to say, sorry. But I can say that WoW is now over-rated, disagree if you may. But, most of us probably played the game at one time , but it turned boring or just plain stupid. It's a good game, don't get me wrong. But  people put way to much shine on it.

    As it turns out, I am also a former WoW player who tired of it, but to be honest, I think the attitude above is a good example of the kind of counter-productive anti-WoW comments that are typical of these forums.

    WoW is--according to the above--"over-rated", "boring", and "just plain stupid".  It's "good", but not apparently anything more than that.

    So why over ten million subscribers?  It's a mystery!  Nobody knows.  It's "over-rated", "boring", and "stupid", and it's just a big gigantic mystery why it has over ten million subscribers!  Don't worry, other game companies, nothing to be learned from WoW, and nothing worthy of emulation--it's "good", but "over-rated".

    Sorry, but that kind of pointless anti-WoW rhetoric appears to me to be what the OP is complaining about, and I find it to be problematic.  WoW is clearly doing something right, and any attempt to shut down the discussion, either by complaining that there's too much emphasis on it, or that it's "over-rated", etc., is just dodging the issue that a great many people--including a great many game companies--have not figured out why it is so successful, let alone how to replicate that success.

  • dougmysticeydougmysticey Member Posts: 1,176

    Sigh...here we go again. It is not a FEAR of something being called a WOW clone or any FEAR of WOW at all. it is the total potential misconception that WOW like or WOW clone implies that is the issue.

    WHY- because WOW did not invent the standards used for typical fantasy style MMOs and just because a game might follow some of those standards it should not be classified as a WOW clone in the way it is most often used now.

    That is really it for me.

    image

  • dougmysticeydougmysticey Member Posts: 1,176

    Originally posted by mm0wiggins

    Originally posted by Unlight

    Originally posted by mm0wiggins

    Can you talk about FPS without mentioning Call of Duty?   or Halo?     (bring on the exceptionists... *sigh*)  no, you can't.

    Can you talk about operating systems without mentioning Windows?    Don't even try to say you can....

     

    Shill much?

    When I talk about FPSs, I mention Action Half Life & Day of Defeat, not the titles you listed because I don't play them and I'm not interested in them.  Don't bother speaking for me when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

    [Mod Edit]

     When I talk about an FPS I usually call it an FPS or a shooter, not a COD or Halo clone just because they have FPS keyboard layout and mechanics. But that is just me and all of my friends.

    image

  • mm0wigginsmm0wiggins Member Posts: 270

    Originally posted by dougmysticey

    Sigh...here we go again. It is not a FEAR of something being called a WOW clone or any FEAR of WOW at all. it is the total potential misconception that WOW like or WOW clone implies that is the issue.

    WHY- because WOW did not invent the standards used for typical fantasy style MMOs and just because a game might follow some of those standards it should not be classified as a WOW clone in the way it is most often used now.

    That is really it for me.

    You're right, WoW didn't create fantasy elements.   But your approach and response to what I said is exactly what I'm talking about.     Automatically assuming that when someone says "wow-clone" that all they mean is "another fantasy game" is the kind of misconception that keeps the loop looping. 

    EQ was fantasy. UO was fantasy.  DAoC was fantasy.   Did they have NPCs with punctuation marks over their heads?  Did they have arrows pointing out where to go to complete each step of a quest?  Did they have instanced arenas where people repeat them to achieve seasonal suites of armor? Did they have seasonal suites of armor?   Did they have matchmaking tools?  Did they have talent trees?  Did they have action bars with icons that were then copied in every subsiquent MMO title?    Did they have easy/hard mode content toggles?  Did they have complete lack of interest for player housing?  Did they have 2 opposing factions with the same classes to choose from on both sides?  Did they have expedited xp/progression systems in place?  Did they leave all the exciting content for the cap level characters?  did they revolve around "end game"?  

    Those are the things people talk about when they say 'wow-clone' --  not "oh it has magic and armor, so it must be a wowclone" that's dodging the point completely and it's really immature, imo.  

    I think people like that should read more of what the posters are saying and pay attention to why they are saying it, instead of picking out words they don't like being used.   So unproductive, that's all I'm getting at...

    This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.

  • PocahinhaPocahinha Member UncommonPosts: 550

    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Seriously, theres only like 10 people on these forums that hate WoW and dont shut up about it. The other 1.3 million forum members either keep it to themselves, dont care, or like WoW. Not really worth getting all ranty over 10 or so loudmouths.

    This

  • ZoulzZoulz Member Posts: 477

    Originally posted by Pocahinha

    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Seriously, theres only like 10 people on these forums that hate WoW and dont shut up about it. The other 1.3 million forum members either keep it to themselves, dont care, or like WoW. Not really worth getting all ranty over 10 or so loudmouths.

    This

    Agree 100%

  • mm0wigginsmm0wiggins Member Posts: 270

    Originally posted by dougmysticey

    Originally posted by mm0wiggins



    Can you talk about FPS without mentioning Call of Duty?   or Halo?     (bring on the exceptionists... *sigh*)  no, you can't.

    Can you talk about operating systems without mentioning Windows?    Don't even try to say you can....

     

     When I talk about an FPS I usually call it an FPS or a shooter, not a COD or Halo clone just because they have FPS keyboard layout and mechanics. But that is just me and all of my friends.

    Me too....  *sigh*   Ok, I didn't say people REPLACE the term FPS with titles of games.   Come on, you can't really think that's what I was saying.   This is annoying having to write it out in crayon.   

    Look, go to a LAN shop,or any game stopre and announce that you want to play an FPS, or even anounce that you are a developer that wants to make a new FPS, but you want input from the gamers in their on what the 'best' FPS is, and/or what FPS has features you should impliment in your game, and if the majority of those people don't mention CoD, Halo, or BF2/3 AT ALL, I'd be amazed.   

    This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.

  • ShazzelShazzel Member Posts: 472

    There is a physiology to WoW that the haters never mention.  For instance most WoW haters I find are Ex- WoW players themselves that either:

     

    A) played for years and burned themself out. 

    B) were in a guild where things "went bad", said player couldn't find a new guild, became frustrated and quit

    C) hardcore locusts that play something 24/7 then move on to the next thing, claiming "victory" or "they beat the game". An example of this is players that race to max level then 1-2 months later are never seen again.

  • mm0wigginsmm0wiggins Member Posts: 270

    Originally posted by Shazzel

    There is a physiology to WoW that the haters never mention.  For instance most WoW haters I find are Ex- WoW players themselves that either:

     

    A) played for years and burned themself out. 

    B) were in a guild where things "went bad", said player couldn't find a new guild, became frustrated and quit

    C) hardcore locusts that play something 24/7 then move on to the next thing, claiming "victory" or "they beat the game". An example of this is players that race to max level then 1-2 months later are never seen again.

    I could add a D) E) F) G) H) I) J) and K) to that list, but I'm not going to because it has nothing to do with my OP.

     

    So, what's your point?

    Constructive.

    This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    My dislike for the use of the label has nothing to do with Blizzard. Aside from the fact that the term gives Blizzard more credit than due IMO.

    MY dislike is related to how and why it's used. LIke how people were labeling AOC a WOW clone, the two games couldn't be any more different in how they play and feel. Yet it didn't escape the label. Combat is completely different, atmopshere is completely different, world layout is completely different, presentation is completely different, UI is completely different. Yet it's still called a WOW clone. Having quests and character development doesn't make a game a WOW clone.

    MMO's from the very begining of the genre had similar features to WOW (UO is basically the exception), the WOW formula is much older than WOW is, yet it gets all credit for said features in todays forum society, it really makes no sense. Should we call all sandbox games from here forth EVE clones? Totally ignoring games like UO or SWG?

    Why do we not call themparks EQ clones? That's what WOW was labeled when it released afterall.

    In the end, most themepark features are multiplyer versions of typical RPG functions. PVP is an RPG version of a Multi-player FPS fragfest. In short all of these features are aspects video-games have been utilizing for a very long period of time. These are some of my problems with the term, thanks for asking, have a nice day.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ShazzelShazzel Member Posts: 472

    my point is most WoW haters are ex players that allready donated money to blizzard, and in most cases will again.

  • Chris586Chris586 Member Posts: 4

    WoW is a piece of garbage MMO that has managed to influence other game developers to do the same thing with MMOs they are working on. This is why Rift exists. This is why SW:TOR is coming out. This is why we'll never see a decent MMO coming out because game developers are too busy trying to figure out they can add WoW elements to their MMO instead of just having their own vision on what a MMO should be. I very much rather devs not mention WoW when it comes to developing an MMO. Or not even mention COD when it comes to developing a new FPS. COD is just a plain half-assed scam for a game.

    Maybe if MMO developers came up with an original idea, just maybe their MMO could be even bigger. I will give credit to games like EvE online , Mortal online, and darkfall. Star wars galaxies could of been bigger than WoW, but we saw how they wanted to be like WoW and they suffered. Galaxies had features in the game that really applied to all types of players. Whether you loved PVE, PVP, trading, crafting, dancing and much more. That's why SWG's community was so was unique and rich.  But no, apparently releasing an MMO with  the same boring classes that we've played since Everquest 1 is considered "successful".

    Awesome, can't wait to see the next big time MMO's that come out. Let me guess, I get to be an ELF!  I can't stand the MMO industry and in my honest opinion, WoW destroyed it by taking MMO's one step backward instead of forward.

  • ShazzelShazzel Member Posts: 472

    Originally posted by Chris586

    WoW is a piece of garbage MMO that has managed to influence other game developers to do the same thing with MMOs they are working on. This is why Rift exists. This is why SW:TOR is coming out. This is why we'll never see a decent MMO coming out because game developers are too busy trying to figure out they can add WoW elements to their MMO instead of just having their own vision on what a MMO should be. I very much rather devs not mention WoW when it comes to developing an MMO. Or not even mention COD when it comes to developing a new FPS. COD is just a plain half-assed scam for a game.

    Maybe if MMO developers came up with an original idea, just maybe their MMO could be even bigger. I will give credit to games like EvE online , Mortal online, and darkfall. Star wars galaxies could of been bigger than WoW, but we saw how they wanted to be like WoW and they suffered. Galaxies had features in the game that really applied to all types of players. Whether you loved PVE, PVP, trading, crafting, dancing and much more. That's why SWG's community was so was unique and rich.  But no, apparently releasing an MMO with  the same boring classes that we've played since Everquest 1 is considered "successful".

    Awesome, can't wait to see the next big time MMO's that come out. Let me guess, I get to be an ELF!  I can't stand the MMO industry and in my honest opinion, WoW destroyed it by taking MMO's one step backward instead of forward.

     

     

    Are you serious SWG bigger than WoW? First off SWG came out well beforehand, there was no way they were going to have blizzard like numbers. Yes there were all the changes SWG made later, but that was mostly for retention In a dying game I would imagine.

    As for Eve it was released in 03', can't exactly model yourself after WoW with their limited budget, engine, and timeline...

    Darkfall and Mortal online are PVP centric niche games that havn't broken any molds allready set by shadowbane and/or DAOC.

  • mm0wigginsmm0wiggins Member Posts: 270

    Originally posted by Elidien

     

    WHOA, I have been around the MMo market for 10 years and its news to me that the NGE was based on SWG wanting to be like WOW. here I was thinking it was bad developer management, a lack of game direction and an inability to dig theirself out of the hole they found themselves in. And let's not forget how rushed the game was at launch, the bugs and BUGs the game had, the broken systems and how nothing really got fixed for months as the new lead developer of the week game played out.

    Blaming WOW for SWG issues really is looking back through rose-colored glasses at LA/SOE or being so blinded by hate for WOW that one fails to see the whole picture.

    Yeah, because 1 year after WoW launched and pulled in more subscriptions than MMOs had ever seen, SOE executed the NGE to cater to a more casual crowd, and since have lied about how the NGE has steadily increased their population... 

    I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with seeing Blizzard's success in pulling in the casual crowd, 1 year earlier.  Right.

     

    /endsarcasm

    This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.

  • BogeBoge Member Posts: 182

    World of Warcraft has set the bar by which all other MMORPGs are measured.  If you don't measure an MMO by World of Warcrafts standards, you can't know exactly how it compares to the best that's out there.

  • BeezerbeezBeezerbeez Member UncommonPosts: 302

    Originally posted by mm0wiggins

    Sorry if it was unclear.   I don't play WoW anymore, and I'm one of the "mmo vets" or whatever that wish there were more core MMOs to choose from.  Sandboxes, I guess...

    I was sort of just venting after being really annoyed with people ignoring well written posts by me and others just because the term "wow-clone" was used.    

    People get really upset for some reason when you point out the obvious.  Developer's tendancies to keep copying wow talent trees, button icons, class mechanics, combat mechanics, human/elf vs orcs, arenas, battlegrounds, lfg system/tool, etc...

     

    the response is always "well, it works! so why not copy it?  oh btw, stop using wow-clone. it's beating a dead horse.  no one is copying wow.  you're wrong.   but yeah, copy what works!"  it's just such a circular arguement and it's obvious that only the population of WoW seem to be offended when you don't praise their game.

     

    But anyways, yeah... It's a new day and I'm not in the mood to continue this thread after all.  Just wanted to clear up what appears to be a crappy OP by me.    sorry.

     

    now, off to read some exciting news on the wow-clones and how 'different' they are....

    Ah.  Right on.  Your sentiment has plenty of merit so don't feel badly.  If you're looking for an academic, non-frustrating argument this might not be the sane place (these forums) to explore.  Personally, I agree with you about the copying tendencies.  Seems like developers are blending a lot of safe choices with a few new avenues.  Keep what works and add only a couple innovations.  It's safe... but it's boring for many of us.  And you're right, it is a new day and I'll drink to that!

  • rokrowrokrow Member Posts: 66

    1. very low system requirements, wow runs fine on dialup for example.

    2. responsive combat probably because it has low system requirements.

    3. lots of combat features, spell reflect, pets, teleports, stealth, etc

    4. lots of content.

    5. some of the hardest raids around

    WoW devastated other MMOs when it launched. SWG was losing 10K subs a month to WoW for example.

    I think GW2 will compete with WoW, but I don't really see other MMOs on the horizon challenging it.

  • Jimmy562Jimmy562 Member UncommonPosts: 1,158

    Originally posted by Boge

    World of Warcraft has set the bar by which all other MMORPGs are measured.  If you don't measure an MMO by World of Warcrafts standards, you can't know exactly how it compares to the best that's out there.

    You measure an MMO  to what ever MMO you personally believe is best. WoW is not the best by fact, unless it has around 8 billion subscribers then just maybe It will be considered a fact.

  • MimzelMimzel Member UncommonPosts: 375

    I appreciate the OP's fine points and to-the-point text. I'm not a native English speaker so I'm not able to produce a text of the same quality as he did. However, here is my response:

    I belive that a major concern for many players not interested in WOW (aka not wanting to play WOW) is other developers looking to WoW for inspiration and producing even more of the kind of product that these particular players have grown tired of. It's like going into a grocery store and all you'll find there are a bunch of pizzas. Sure, it's nice now and again, but most of the time I want something else. For me, when a person says something is a wow-clone, it is a reiteration of that fear. 'oh here comes yet another pizza'. 

    Because so many developers still try to go the 'wow route' (copying buttons, arrows, questionmarks, races, plots etc), they are just wasting my time. It's like they are consuming valuable bandwidth - bandwith that should have gone to produce something totally different and more appealing to my taste. 

    And now in conclusion I find that I am really in agreement with the OP - I think. People who shun the word 'wow-clone' and effectly stop any discussions about what makes the game a 'wow clone' effectively contributes to reproduce the problem. It gives the developer legitimacy and rival producers even more reason to continue down the same old path as before.

    In the end Money Talks. One big flop after another must say something. Maybe it's time to analyze WOW in a very different manner - copying metavalues instead of menu buttons.

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