Reading over this thread, I can't help but scratch my head and think, 'since when are player housing and an in-game economy considered sandbox elements?' I would consider both of those to be fairly standard elements by this point.
EQ was no themepark, the fact that it had raiding or classes doesn't make it a themepark MMO.
Granted, not as themeparky as some of its successors, but compared to UO it felt much more limited.
Of course it felt more limited, UO was a sandbox MMORPG and other MMO's of that time like EQ, DAOC and AC (not sure about this last one) were not. But that EQ wasn't a sandbox MMO doesn't make it automatically a themepark MMO.
Originally posted by 2can
Originally posted by inBOIL
in english
we´re making a wow kind of game because there isnt one yet?
yeah kinda funny guess im living under a rock cause i dont follow videogame forums enough...................
still disapointing given a AAA developer and budget to match they cant add so many features
Sigh. Misinterpretation ftw.
A Star Wars sandbox MMO has already been tried, namely SWG. That's what he refers to.
It failed, and stayed far below expectations, even before NGE.
So why should they go and make another Star Wars sandbox MMO?
It has already been tried.
Now Bioware is going on a different road regarding MMO design, namely the Star Wars themepark MMO design, with some more emphasis on exploration and such than is usual in themepark MMO's (some'd consider focus on exploratino a sandbox trait, but I think it's very well possible in all kinds of MMO's, themepark MMO's included)
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't get why he even had to say that. I thought EVERYONE knew this was star wars on rails by now?
Because although they where very straightforward about what TOR would be since day 1 some SWG dinosaurs still refuse to accept it. They still linger the forums moaning and acting like TOR is their game and demanding it to be as they want it to be. The fact that they are a minority does not seem to bother them at all.
true words. however when game first announced and forums first went up it was quite unclear exactly what the game was going to be. at first only the graphics really hinted at the games blandness until more info came out.
I didn't even play swg but when I realised I was a minority I stopped posting over there. most ppl there are bored wow players or such starwars fanboys they can only get erect to twi'lik girls. I would still love a proper kotor mmo rather than this world of starwars. but a mmo with this big budget taking risks was naive of me.
right, so the first theme park wouyld be ..........WOW or Grandfather of them all if you say.
incorrect. Even EQ2 launched prior to wow and that was no sandbox even though I enjoyed it considerably.
EQ2 was a "linear" MMO not a "themepark"
It became a "Thempark" after WoW released, SoE slowly converted the game from a decent MMO to a WoW clone. (They added PvP, Battlegrounds, Quest Grinding, simplified crafting, added faction points and some more minor features )
Reading over this thread, I can't help but scratch my head and think, 'since when are player housing and an in-game economy considered sandbox elements?' I would consider both of those to be fairly standard elements by this point.
i thinks they are more commonly used in sandbox, tbh i cant think of many if any
themeparks with player housing & a player built economy, since they are not very
common, your definition of standard seems misguided.
But your point is valid, theres nothing to say they cant implement these parts into
a themepark
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Since (some) sandbox MMO fans/themepark MMO haters are so intent on dismissing all themepark MMORPG's as not being MMORPG's, maybe sandbox MMO's should be dismissed and avowed as not being MMORPG too.
As people in the MMO business often stated, WoW's MMO design focused more on the game aspect of MMORPG and far less on the worldbuilding/simulation of an MMORPG, and since the G in MMORPG stands clearly for 'Game' it seems that Blizzard paid more tribute to where the name MMORPG comes from. More so than sandbox MMORPG's that focus far more on the world aspect and far less on the game aspect as Blizzard did with WoW, and other themepark MMORPG's in the same line do as well.
So I think it's no more than reasonable, since sandbox MMO's are more focused on the world aspect than on the game aspect anyway, to not call them MMORPG's anymore.
Call them MMOW or MMORPW or such, but clearly themepark MMORPG's like WoW & co are more 'game' design based than sandbox MMO's. Just a thought
Originally posted by ukforze
i thinks they are more commonly used in sandbox, tbh i cant think of many if any
themeparks with player housing & a player built economy, since they are not very
common, your definition of standard seems misguided.
LotrO and EQ2 have player houses, AoC has player towns, SWTOR will have player ships and guild capital ships are on the way. So I'd say that they're present in themepark MMO's already.
As for the player built economy, I'm guessing that people mean no gear from quests or loot at all, but all player crafted. No, you won't see that quickly in themepark based MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What's the differences between themepark and linear? Isn't a themepark linear by nature?
Themepark implies that you can choose which attractions to visit, and re-visit. like a Zoo.. "oooh i wanna go see the lions next and then the hippo's again". Linear to me says there is a start and a finish.
Of course by its nature, a themepark could contain several micro-linear attractions, like a rollercoaster is linear, but it is part of a themepark.
What's the differences between themepark and linear? Isn't a themepark linear by nature?
Themepark implies that you can choose which attractions to visit, and re-visit. like a Zoo.. "oooh i wanna go see the lions next and then the hippo's again". Linear to me says there is a start and a finish.
Of course by its nature, a themepark could contain several micro-linear attractions, like a rollercoaster is linear, but it is part of a themepark.
SWG had many little themeparks in it...I recall many of the areas being referred to as "so and so" themepark. Doesn't this go against the entire definition of a sandbox?
Themepark MMORPGS are just glorified chat rooms with facebook games (instanced dungeons,bg's,simplified crafting).
I woudln't call them mmorpgs,UO was a MMORPG,M59 was a MMORPG,lineage 1 was a MMORPG. They had strong communities,community based economy,no instancing,group based,true PVP,etc.
Themepark chat rooms have none of that,that's why they aren't MMORPGS.
I would actually agree with this. Themeparks have no virtual world to speak of so not really MMORPGs in my book, but ever since WoW the definition of MMORPG has been stretched far wider than most of us veterans are comfortable with.
I mean when STO is classified as an MMORPG, with its houndreds of instances, then what is not an MMORPG?
I wonder how many people here have actually played previous Bioware games.
I mean let's be honest, all Bioware games are pretty lineair. There's the first act in which you're locked into the starting area and progress to the point where you 'unlock' the game world. Then there's the second act in which there's several locations in the game world you need to visit to collect allies/star maps/whatever. And then there's the third act in which you assault the grand enemy, first beating his minions to reach him and the beating said enemy himself. Through this all are side-quests which usually boil down to killing things, getting items or having a conversation.
What were you expecting? A neurotoxin at Bioware HQ making them forget all their previous games?
You're going to start on your starting planet where you're going to get introduced to the story until you unlock the game world by getting your starship. After that a number of planets are going to open up which you're going to visit in order to get more clues about whatever threat you're facing as well as whatever tools you need to beat that threat. Then there's going to be a finale in the story in which you face some sort of nemesis and eventually beat him. Through this all there will be side-quests which will boil down to killing things, getting items or having conversations. As extra MMO features you're going to get BG PvP, world PvP, flashpoints, crafting, trading, multiplayer conversations, grouping, guilds and much much more.
That's what SWToR is going to be. That's what Bioware games are. They've never been about revolutionising the industry. They've never been about glorious innovation. They've always been about story and companions. And now as an added bonus we're going to be getting a ton of MMO features of AAA quality on top of that.
If you buy the game then you fall into one of three very advantagous categories!
If you like Bioware games then you're going to be getting 8 times KotOR for 50 bucks + 15 bucks/month. Buying 8 KotOR games would normally cost 400 bucks. You can play for 24 months or 2 years on that. And that's assuming they don't release any content patches at all! Basically DLC that would normally cost you 15 bucks or so at release. So add an extra month of playtime for every major content patch. Besides this great offer you're going to get all the standard MMO features for absolutely nothing at all. Totally free. You're just paying for one of the biggest RPGs ever made and you're getting one of the biggest MMOs for absolutely nothing at all.
If you like WoW-type games then you're going to be spending the exact same money as you'd spend on them. Same box price and same sub fee. But of course with updated graphics, a totally fresh and exciting Star Wars setting as well as some unique systems like companions, crafting and a personal starship. And on top of that and the standard MMO fare you're going to get one of the biggest RPGs for absolutely nothing at all, totally free. No extra money charged. You're just paying for your standard MMO and you'll be receiving 8 great Bioware RPGs for free.
If you don't like Bioware and you don't like WoW then you're getting exactly what you deserved! You didn't research the game, you didn't bother to read anything about it. You've lost 50 bucks on a game you don't like because you were stupid. You shouldn't have bought the game in the first place. And on top of getting precisely what you deserve you're also getting a totally free valueable lesson! Next time read up on a game before you buy it. You're just paying the debt you no doubt owe Bioware for your lack of intelligence and you'll be receiving a valueable life lesson for zero extra cost!
So you see, no matter what type of player you are buying SWToR is good for you!
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Themepark MMORPGS are just glorified chat rooms with facebook games (instanced dungeons,bg's,simplified crafting).
I woudln't call them mmorpgs,UO was a MMORPG,M59 was a MMORPG,lineage 1 was a MMORPG. They had strong communities,community based economy,no instancing,group based,true PVP,etc.
Themepark chat rooms have none of that,that's why they aren't MMORPGS.
Don't you think you should refine the text portions of the picture in your sig a bit then? Also, maybe make all the titles under "eastern MMORPGs" the same logo as well, as we are all well aware of what types of games that particular subcontinent is capable of producing.
Themepark MMORPGS are just glorified chat rooms with facebook games (instanced dungeons,bg's,simplified crafting).
I woudln't call them mmorpgs,UO was a MMORPG,M59 was a MMORPG,lineage 1 was a MMORPG. They had strong communities,community based economy,no instancing,group based,true PVP,etc.
Themepark chat rooms have none of that,that's why they aren't MMORPGS.
A chat room would actually be the ultimate sandbox. No restrictions. Everything is run by the participants. It's actually much more close to real pen 'n paper RPGs than a computer game will ever be.
Themepark MMORPGS are just glorified chat rooms with facebook games (instanced dungeons,bg's,simplified crafting).
I woudln't call them mmorpgs,UO was a MMORPG,M59 was a MMORPG,lineage 1 was a MMORPG. They had strong communities,community based economy,no instancing,group based,true PVP,etc.
Themepark chat rooms have none of that,that's why they aren't MMORPGS.
A chat room would actually be the ultimate sandbox. No restrictions. Everything is run by the participants. It's actually much more close to real pen 'n paper RPGs than a computer game will ever be.
I wonder how many people here have actually played previous Bioware games.
I mean let's be honest, all Bioware games are pretty lineair. There's the first act in which you're locked into the starting area and progress to the point where you 'unlock' the game world. Then there's the second act in which there's several locations in the game world you need to visit to collect allies/star maps/whatever. And then there's the third act in which you assault the grand enemy, first beating his minions to reach him and the beating said enemy himself. Through this all are side-quests which usually boil down to killing things, getting items or having a conversation.
What were you expecting? A neurotoxin at Bioware HQ making them forget all their previous games?
You're going to start on your starting planet where you're going to get introduced to the story until you unlock the game world by getting your starship. After that a number of planets are going to open up which you're going to visit in order to get more clues about whatever threat you're facing as well as whatever tools you need to beat that threat. Then there's going to be a finale in the story in which you face some sort of nemesis and eventually beat him. Through this all there will be side-quests which will boil down to killing things, getting items or having conversations. As extra MMO features you're going to get BG PvP, world PvP, flashpoints, crafting, trading, multiplayer conversations, grouping, guilds and much much more.
That's what SWToR is going to be. That's what Bioware games are. They've never been about revolutionising the industry. They've never been about glorious innovation. They've always been about story and companions. And now as an added bonus we're going to be getting a ton of MMO features of AAA quality on top of that.
If you buy the game then you fall into one of three very advantagous categories!
If you like Bioware games then you're going to be getting 8 times KotOR for 50 bucks + 15 bucks/month. Buying 8 KotOR games would normally cost 400 bucks. You can play for 24 months or 2 years on that. And that's assuming they don't release any content patches at all! Basically DLC that would normally cost you 15 bucks or so at release. So add an extra month of playtime for every major content patch. Besides this great offer you're going to get all the standard MMO features for absolutely nothing at all. Totally free. You're just paying for one of the biggest RPGs ever made and you're getting one of the biggest MMOs for absolutely nothing at all.
If you like WoW-type games then you're going to be spending the exact same money as you'd spend on them. Same box price and same sub fee. But of course with updated graphics, a totally fresh and exciting Star Wars setting as well as some unique systems like companions, crafting and a personal starship. And on top of that and the standard MMO fare you're going to get one of the biggest RPGs for absolutely nothing at all, totally free. No extra money charged. You're just paying for your standard MMO and you'll be receiving 8 great Bioware RPGs for free.
If you don't like Bioware and you don't like WoW then you're getting exactly what you deserved! You didn't research the game, you didn't bother to read anything about it. You've lost 50 bucks on a game you don't like because you were stupid. You shouldn't have bought the game in the first place. And on top of getting precisely what you deserve you're also getting a totally free valueable lesson! Next time read up on a game before you buy it. You're just paying the debt you no doubt owe Bioware for your lack of intelligence and you'll be receiving a valueable life lesson for zero extra cost!
So you see, no matter what type of player you are buying SWToR is good for you!
Comments
Didn't they come out at the same time?
Reading over this thread, I can't help but scratch my head and think, 'since when are player housing and an in-game economy considered sandbox elements?' I would consider both of those to be fairly standard elements by this point.
Those arent features, that's a different kind of game.
Of course it felt more limited, UO was a sandbox MMORPG and other MMO's of that time like EQ, DAOC and AC (not sure about this last one) were not. But that EQ wasn't a sandbox MMO doesn't make it automatically a themepark MMO.
Sigh. Misinterpretation ftw.
A Star Wars sandbox MMO has already been tried, namely SWG. That's what he refers to.
It failed, and stayed far below expectations, even before NGE.
So why should they go and make another Star Wars sandbox MMO?
It has already been tried.
Now Bioware is going on a different road regarding MMO design, namely the Star Wars themepark MMO design, with some more emphasis on exploration and such than is usual in themepark MMO's (some'd consider focus on exploratino a sandbox trait, but I think it's very well possible in all kinds of MMO's, themepark MMO's included)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Few months apart I think.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
Because WoW was the first MMO, right?
/sarcasmoff
For all intents and purposes, WoW is not an MMO, but rather a social networking platform.
true words. however when game first announced and forums first went up it was quite unclear exactly what the game was going to be. at first only the graphics really hinted at the games blandness until more info came out.
I didn't even play swg but when I realised I was a minority I stopped posting over there. most ppl there are bored wow players or such starwars fanboys they can only get erect to twi'lik girls. I would still love a proper kotor mmo rather than this world of starwars. but a mmo with this big budget taking risks was naive of me.
My blog:
EQ2 was a "linear" MMO not a "themepark"
It became a "Thempark" after WoW released, SoE slowly converted the game from a decent MMO to a WoW clone. (They added PvP, Battlegrounds, Quest Grinding, simplified crafting, added faction points and some more minor features )
everquest II released november 8, 2004 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest_II
Wow released November 23, 2004 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft
i thinks they are more commonly used in sandbox, tbh i cant think of many if any
themeparks with player housing & a player built economy, since they are not very
common, your definition of standard seems misguided.
But your point is valid, theres nothing to say they cant implement these parts into
a themepark
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Played:
SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
we knew it was not a sandbox in 2007 dev's are commenting because people are stupid.....
What's the differences between themepark and linear? Isn't a themepark linear by nature?
This ^
Anyone remotely on the pulse knew as much, those that didn't? Well...
Since (some) sandbox MMO fans/themepark MMO haters are so intent on dismissing all themepark MMORPG's as not being MMORPG's, maybe sandbox MMO's should be dismissed and avowed as not being MMORPG too.
As people in the MMO business often stated, WoW's MMO design focused more on the game aspect of MMORPG and far less on the worldbuilding/simulation of an MMORPG, and since the G in MMORPG stands clearly for 'Game' it seems that Blizzard paid more tribute to where the name MMORPG comes from. More so than sandbox MMORPG's that focus far more on the world aspect and far less on the game aspect as Blizzard did with WoW, and other themepark MMORPG's in the same line do as well.
So I think it's no more than reasonable, since sandbox MMO's are more focused on the world aspect than on the game aspect anyway, to not call them MMORPG's anymore.
Call them MMOW or MMORPW or such, but clearly themepark MMORPG's like WoW & co are more 'game' design based than sandbox MMO's. Just a thought
LotrO and EQ2 have player houses, AoC has player towns, SWTOR will have player ships and guild capital ships are on the way. So I'd say that they're present in themepark MMO's already.
As for the player built economy, I'm guessing that people mean no gear from quests or loot at all, but all player crafted. No, you won't see that quickly in themepark based MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This was confirmed more than once and has been a known fact for a long time. What is the point of your post?
Themepark implies that you can choose which attractions to visit, and re-visit. like a Zoo.. "oooh i wanna go see the lions next and then the hippo's again". Linear to me says there is a start and a finish.
Of course by its nature, a themepark could contain several micro-linear attractions, like a rollercoaster is linear, but it is part of a themepark.
SWG had many little themeparks in it...I recall many of the areas being referred to as "so and so" themepark. Doesn't this go against the entire definition of a sandbox?
Moisture farmer? Talk about a condascending dev and a big insult to all sandbox fans.
But that being said, not like it is un-expected. This game has been promoted from the get go to be a themepark so no dissapointments there I guess.
My gaming blog
I would actually agree with this. Themeparks have no virtual world to speak of so not really MMORPGs in my book, but ever since WoW the definition of MMORPG has been stretched far wider than most of us veterans are comfortable with.
I mean when STO is classified as an MMORPG, with its houndreds of instances, then what is not an MMORPG?
My gaming blog
Generally "themeparks" are linear by default, but not all linear games are themeparks.......
EQ, DAoC, AC, AO and EQ2 (first year) were linear MMOs but they were not themeparks for example
Linear is the actual opposite of sandbox
Using the themepark denomination to describe a non sandbox game is actually inaccurate
Themepark is a subcategory of the linear branch
I wonder how many people here have actually played previous Bioware games.
I mean let's be honest, all Bioware games are pretty lineair. There's the first act in which you're locked into the starting area and progress to the point where you 'unlock' the game world. Then there's the second act in which there's several locations in the game world you need to visit to collect allies/star maps/whatever. And then there's the third act in which you assault the grand enemy, first beating his minions to reach him and the beating said enemy himself. Through this all are side-quests which usually boil down to killing things, getting items or having a conversation.
What were you expecting? A neurotoxin at Bioware HQ making them forget all their previous games?
You're going to start on your starting planet where you're going to get introduced to the story until you unlock the game world by getting your starship. After that a number of planets are going to open up which you're going to visit in order to get more clues about whatever threat you're facing as well as whatever tools you need to beat that threat. Then there's going to be a finale in the story in which you face some sort of nemesis and eventually beat him. Through this all there will be side-quests which will boil down to killing things, getting items or having conversations. As extra MMO features you're going to get BG PvP, world PvP, flashpoints, crafting, trading, multiplayer conversations, grouping, guilds and much much more.
That's what SWToR is going to be. That's what Bioware games are. They've never been about revolutionising the industry. They've never been about glorious innovation. They've always been about story and companions. And now as an added bonus we're going to be getting a ton of MMO features of AAA quality on top of that.
If you buy the game then you fall into one of three very advantagous categories!
If you like Bioware games then you're going to be getting 8 times KotOR for 50 bucks + 15 bucks/month. Buying 8 KotOR games would normally cost 400 bucks. You can play for 24 months or 2 years on that. And that's assuming they don't release any content patches at all! Basically DLC that would normally cost you 15 bucks or so at release. So add an extra month of playtime for every major content patch. Besides this great offer you're going to get all the standard MMO features for absolutely nothing at all. Totally free. You're just paying for one of the biggest RPGs ever made and you're getting one of the biggest MMOs for absolutely nothing at all.
If you like WoW-type games then you're going to be spending the exact same money as you'd spend on them. Same box price and same sub fee. But of course with updated graphics, a totally fresh and exciting Star Wars setting as well as some unique systems like companions, crafting and a personal starship. And on top of that and the standard MMO fare you're going to get one of the biggest RPGs for absolutely nothing at all, totally free. No extra money charged. You're just paying for your standard MMO and you'll be receiving 8 great Bioware RPGs for free.
If you don't like Bioware and you don't like WoW then you're getting exactly what you deserved! You didn't research the game, you didn't bother to read anything about it. You've lost 50 bucks on a game you don't like because you were stupid. You shouldn't have bought the game in the first place. And on top of getting precisely what you deserve you're also getting a totally free valueable lesson! Next time read up on a game before you buy it. You're just paying the debt you no doubt owe Bioware for your lack of intelligence and you'll be receiving a valueable life lesson for zero extra cost!
So you see, no matter what type of player you are buying SWToR is good for you!
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Don't you think you should refine the text portions of the picture in your sig a bit then? Also, maybe make all the titles under "eastern MMORPGs" the same logo as well, as we are all well aware of what types of games that particular subcontinent is capable of producing.
A chat room would actually be the ultimate sandbox. No restrictions. Everything is run by the participants. It's actually much more close to real pen 'n paper RPGs than a computer game will ever be.
MMORPIRC?
+1