"Just to manage expectations (and I think we've posted this a number of times now in the last few years).
There is already a Star Wars MMO that focuses primarily on these features. We're making a different kind of game and we've been pretty open about that from the start.
That does not mean we are hostile to certain sandbox features such as player built housing - it just means that these kind of features are not a particularly high priority to us at this point as we navigate to ship.
There will certainly be out-of-combat player activities and activities that promote social interaction in the game, but you will not be able to take a job as a moisture farmer on Tatooine and simulate the life of such an individual in our game.
In short: Uncle Owen and his life is not the kind of heroic journey we're going for with this game. (The jawa's with their rocket launchers wouldn't make that a very fun activity anyway)."
Georg "Observer" Zoeller
Principal Lead Combat Designer
This was written in response to a thread on TOR's site asking for sandbox features.
Well they've made no secret that they had no intention of making SWG pre CUNGE 2, so this isn't exactly breaking news. Nor is it bad news. SWG failed on many levels, both before and after CUNGE. I want to see these guys do their own take on the SW universe, not just rehash someone else's rubbish.
However, and I admit it could just be me reading something into his tone that isn't actually there, I feel there is more than a bit of hostility towards the disgruntled SWG vet crowd. I find the whole Uncle Owen and moisture farmer example to be tired and hackneyed, and a piss poor analogy for an argument. Mainly because it so very simplifies (childishly so) what kind of player activities that were possible during the old days of SWG. It is also not meant to be a logical argument (at least I hope these people are a bit better educated than that) but more bait for angst ridden SWG vets to flame out on. I find Zoeller's use of such analogies to be confrontational, foolish, and counter productive.
As to his claims that there will be out of combat player activities to promote player interaction, well I hope he is right. However all I've seen so far is you will have less sideline activities to participate in. In old SWG you could be an artisan, politician, or diplomat if you so chose. In SWTOR if you want to have those kinds of adventures it looks like you just have the butler do it.
Now I'm not saying that what I am REALLY looking for in a Star Wars game is to live the life of the hole in the wall Gungan haberdasher, but I also expect a bit more for my money than just another "pew pew LaZoR BeAmS" SW combat simulator. And I don't think myself or other SW fans are unjust to expect such features as we were SW fans long before video games even existed.
So to Mr. Zoeller, you want to impress us? Then you can start by explaining exactly what you guys bring to the table. Stop with the snide side comments about a certain faction of that "other game". All you are doing with those is alienating a group of people who actually want to be your customers.
You are assuming that it is possible to somehow sway an angst ridden SWG vet to pick up a game that isn't an exact replica of their pre-whatever tearjerker game. It is probably a better move for them to not try to attract SWG vets with promises of this and that, as it would merely result in said players cancelling after the first comped month of a digital download sale. That of course leads to a double disgruntled player, and an unnecessary addition to negative buzz in the community, which would only serve to further dissuade an on-the-fence prospective player.
Besides, Bioware has always excercised their right to dickishness in response to hostile expectations. I for one find it refreshing. Were I in that same position of being a hate filled, entitled veteran of <dead and buried game>, walking up to a developer and saying "make your game a spiritual successor to <dead and buried game>, or I will forever haunt you with my picket sign and bullhorn," I'd rather be told flat out that I won't get what I want. There is no developer-community transaction more condescending and panderous than the old "now, this will be different than what you are used to, but you might like it anyway" line, it tends to leave a bad aftertaste more often than not.
Devs having been saying that this was not intended as a sandbox since I started following it in late 2010, and I have known that it wasn't going to be a sandbox since screenshots and information surfaced back in 08.
good news? it's another wow clone but in space... meh another ruined ip
It's not really news at all.
It's been known for months if not years that SWToR was going to be a more or less standard themepark except for the Star Wars setting and the Bioware storytelling + companions. It's adding something, which many people enjoy a lot, to the existing gameplay.
And wouldn't really call it a ruined IP. From the info we have thus far it's succeeding at what it's trying to do.
instead of hitting the esc key 5 times to skip blabbering quest givers, we have to skip crappy
cinematics this is single player sort of content, plus the space comabt on rails...
yeh nice one bioware :P
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Not sure why this is news to anyone. Back in Feb., Bioware co-founder Greg Zeschuk stated World of Warcraft has "... established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb."
Glad I read the forums from time to time. I went back and found this , since I never saw it originally. In all fairness I was only halfway looking at this game coming out (far more interested in GW2 atm honestly) but was going to give this a spin when it came out anyway.
If this is the mind set from the get go I will avoid this game flat out. Since it costs so much to make these things and everyone seems to like being t-bagged by wow when it comes to development why dont they just liscense the wow engine and paste in their own stories - replace the epics with purple lasers and flying mounts with x-wings and call it good. After buying the ancient game engine you could develop it for 49.95$
Bio ware used to be innovative. Nice to see them entering the mmo market with a wow clone.
Bioware's intentions from the get go was to make, you the player be the hero of the game, not some smuck wandering around different cantina's dancing with sparkles and a light show.
Bioware wants you the player to live in the game world where you participate in a deep and diverse story, where choices matter to who and what you do in the game.
Bioware will also let you the player travel to all the planets in your own ship by the way, and not only get involved in combat situations but explore to your heart desire.
Bioware will also let you have companions, that will not only fight by your side, and will allow you to change and upgrade their weapons and armor, but also let them do your bidding in crafting and diplomatic missions.
All in all, seems like TOR will be a pretty diverse mmorpg that will merge both styles of gameplay, however more or less, togeither very nicely.
Not sure why this is news to anyone. Back in Feb., Bioware co-founder Greg Zeschuk stated World of Warcraft has "... established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb."
Glad I read the forums from time to time. I went back and found this , since I never saw it originally. In all fairness I was only halfway looking at this game coming out (far more interested in GW2 atm honestly) but was going to give this a spin when it came out anyway.
If this is the mind set from the get go I will avoid this game flat out. Since it costs so much to make these things and everyone seems to like being t-bagged by wow when it comes to development why dont they just liscense the wow engine and paste in their own stories - replace the epics with purple lasers and flying mounts with x-wings and call it good. After buying the ancient game engine you could develop it for 49.95$
Bio ware used to be innovative. Nice to see them entering the mmo market with a wow clone.
Fail.
lol spot on
Fair nuff everyones entitled to their opinion but tbh when a company comes out & says this,
i dnt see how ppl can defend them nor the game, was can only judge it when its out, but
bioware are not inspiring confidence on this one
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
good news? it's another wow clone but in space... meh another ruined ip
It's not really news at all.
It's been known for months if not years that SWToR was going to be a more or less standard themepark except for the Star Wars setting and the Bioware storytelling + companions. It's adding something, which many people enjoy a lot, to the existing gameplay.
And wouldn't really call it a ruined IP. From the info we have thus far it's succeeding at what it's trying to do.
instead of hitting the esc key 5 times to skip blabbering quest givers, we have to skip crappy
cinematics this is single player sort of content, plus the space comabt on rails...
yeh nice one bioware :P
Revolutionary feature here though!
Instead of clicking the "install" button once at the start and having to skip every cinematic afterwards you can also just not click the "install" button and it will automatically skip all the content you don't seem to like!
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
good news? it's another wow clone but in space... meh another ruined ip
It's not really news at all.
It's been known for months if not years that SWToR was going to be a more or less standard themepark except for the Star Wars setting and the Bioware storytelling + companions. It's adding something, which many people enjoy a lot, to the existing gameplay.
And wouldn't really call it a ruined IP. From the info we have thus far it's succeeding at what it's trying to do.
instead of hitting the esc key 5 times to skip blabbering quest givers, we have to skip crappy
cinematics this is single player sort of content, plus the space comabt on rails...
yeh nice one bioware :P
Revolutionary feature here though!
Instead of clicking the "install" button once at the start and having to skip every cinematic afterwards you can also just not click the "install" button and it will automatically skip all the content you don't seem to like!
so if i just completely skip the swtor.exe install i can skip a multitude of crap in one click
...nah joking, we will see anyway, i'll give it a go but not building up my hopes
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Many of those who followed this game have known for a while it's not a Sandbox, nor trying to be SWG 2.0; however, this comment of the "who want's to be a moisture farmer anyway" almost makes it seem like TOR will be NGE 2.0.
I remember them trying to justify NGE with this comment, and how it would make the game "more Star Warsy"
I don't think you were alone in reading into a tone, or general feeling by Mr. 'Observer' Georg Zoeller. He deffinatly had a day yesterday filling out many comments, and posting stuff, although this post does drip witha bit of hostle resentment. When were Rocket launcher Jawas ever a topic? Wait... Rocket Launcher Jawas? ARE THEY A PLAYER CLASS????
Bioware may actually be starting to feel a little pressure, and may start to realize, or it's starting to sink in, or they are starting to let slip a MMO, and a single player RPG are totaly different experiences.
Look at their space combat progression:
1) We hare doing space combat. 2) it's a shooter on rails, but you can choose during the mini-game, points to do A or B, fun right? 3) Shooter on Rails, like Star Fox, you know.. Lego Star Wars had it, that was fun, right? 4) we did say you could choose things on the rails, so it's not a straight rail.. I mean here you can go shoot a capital ships turrets, or skip it.. see choices. and finally... 5) We are exploring additional options for space content, but all will be based on player feedback and testing.
I just hope Bioware focuses on their game, and stop baiting potential players with what their game is not. Or stiring up the embers of hate from 6 years ago. Then again, powerfull the dark side is.
SWTOR. Face it, in the Scooby Doo Mystery Solving Van of coolness, this game is Velma. In this current MMO climate it has about as much chance for survival as a group of inquisitive teenagers in a 1980s slasher flick. -Tardcore May, 2011
I don't get why he even had to say that. I thought EVERYONE knew this was star wars on rails by now?
Because although they where very straightforward about what TOR would be since day 1 some SWG dinosaurs still refuse to accept it. They still linger the forums moaning and acting like TOR is their game and demanding it to be as they want it to be. The fact that they are a minority does not seem to bother them at all.
True they have been on the same page since the start but the disgruntled swgers will never give up.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Georg, way to parrot Nancy McIntyre's infamous New York Times eye poke:
It was fallacious then, and it's fallacious now. Nobody really wants to play a moisture farmer. People, overwhelming, over dozens of MMO titles simply want a place to call their own where they can build a collection of items that represents their journey through the universe. I'm sure most, like myself, would be happy with just decorating the inside of our ship. Aside from that, I would like to have an instanced apartment where that I can make my own. Many, many players feel this way, it's its just downright insulting to have developers pretend that doesn't exist, or to marginalize it by using a red herring like "moisture farmer."
Hey,
I don't know who Nancy is and she's done, but I think you're reading a bit too much into my statement.
Sure, moisture farmer is an oversimplification used to describe a Life Simulation type game, but we're not arguing that there is no market for this type of content. If that offended you, apologies.
I am just trying to make it clear, without any ambiguity, that since there is already a product on the market that focuses exactly on the described content, that we have chosen to make a different type of game and that we've been quite forward about it from the start.
This is not meant to judge or marginalize the audience that exists for such a type of game. I just want to be as straight forward as possible about this so we don't develop unreasonable expectations regarding the positioning and direction of The Old Republic.
I understand that this might be disappointing for people that were looking for a game similar to another existing game, but again, we're not making a statement about the validity or size of the market that might want that type of game - we're just doing what we've always been doing - make our own game. As we frame it:
Create the first BioWare style MMO - a game with a strong narrative framework, companions and choreographed, fluid combat in the popular 'Old Republic' time frame of the Star Wars universe.
We're certainly aware that individuality and customization is important to players, regardless of where they fall on the sandbox vs. themepark scale. There is no question about that.
And not being able to do anything properly in-game without a companion...a friggin' npc to help you ge through the game is Heroic? Without the NPC companion you are all but a joke in TOR....yup thats real heroic.....sure is :P
Heroes - at least in Star Wars - usually have sidekicks. In fact, it's hard to find many that don't. It's kind of a prerequisite of calling yourself a hero.
Tbh this sort of comment "who want's to be a moisture farmer anyway" is a little disrepectful
to the IP... diversity of class & folk, not everyone wants to pwe pwe with a glowy red LS.
I wouldnt mind playing a bartender or a shopkeeper or a moisture farmer,
I loved the crafting in swg, unique, i loved the player based economy & community
having a deep crafting side gives diversity, it allows you to switch off from the "grind"
& the pwe pew.
This is why i hated wow, it got boring fast, just raids & pvp, thats it... yawn
Exactly, you are part of that crowd that would never be pleased by anything that isn't a direct replica of SWG. Why should they try to placate you with words?
so if i just completely skip the swtor.exe install i can skip a multitude of crap in one click
...nah joking, we will see anyway, i'll give it a go but not building up my hopes
Can't really get a better attitude then that.
I'll wait for the first reviews after release to ensure the game isn't obviously bad ( you quickly notice if a game is buggy, laggy etc. ) and if those are halfway positive I'll buy the game and try it for the free month. Likely, seeing as it's Bioware, it will be good enough to experience the story. It's supposed to be 8 times the length of KotOR or even more so even if I just do all the single-player stuff and only half the class stories interest me then I can still play 10 months ( 3 months = 45 bucks = price of KotOR length game. Box price + free month + 9 months = price of 4 KotOR length games ) so I'm guessing I'll still come ahead.
After that we'll see. If the MMO aspects suck then I still got to enjoy a good single player game at a cheaper price and if it rocks then I got exactly what I wanted.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Tbh this sort of comment "who want's to be a moisture farmer anyway" is a little disrepectful
to the IP... diversity of class & folk, not everyone wants to pwe pwe with a glowy red LS.
I wouldnt mind playing a bartender or a shopkeeper or a moisture farmer,
I loved the crafting in swg, unique, i loved the player based economy & community
having a deep crafting side gives diversity, it allows you to switch off from the "grind"
& the pwe pew.
This is why i hated wow, it got boring fast, just raids & pvp, thats it... yawn
Exactly, you are part of that crowd that would never be pleased by anything that isn't a direct replica of SWG. Why should they try to placate you with words?
Not at all, otherwise id say that, dont be so facetious
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
so if i just completely skip the swtor.exe install i can skip a multitude of crap in one click
...nah joking, we will see anyway, i'll give it a go but not building up my hopes
Can't really get a better attitude then that.
I'll wait for the first reviews after release to ensure the game isn't obviously bad ( you quickly notice if a game is buggy, laggy etc. ) and if those are halfway positive I'll buy the game and try it for the free month. Likely, seeing as it's Bioware, it will be good enough to experience the story. It's supposed to be 8 times the length of KotOR or even more so even if I just do all the single-player stuff and only half the class stories interest me then I can still play 10 months ( 3 months = 45 bucks = price of KotOR length game. Box price + free month + 9 months = price of 4 KotOR length games ) so I'm guessing I'll still come ahead.
After that we'll see. If the MMO aspects suck then I still got to enjoy a good single player game at a cheaper price and if it rocks then I got exactly what I wanted.
lol i like it
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed. Nice job insulting all of the Pre-CUNGE "moisture farmers," there, friend. There's a good way to say "No!" and there's a bad way to say "No!" This was the bad way. I was on the fence, even knowing that it was 80% Jedi 15% WoW in Space 5% Sandbox, now that he's decided that the way I play my video games isn't heroic enough, I think I'll move along and not bother with the box price.
I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed. Nice job insulting all of the Pre-CUNGE "moisture farmers," there, friend. There's a good way to say "No!" and there's a bad way to say "No!" This was the bad way. I was on the fence, even knowing that it was 80% Jedi 15% WoW in Space 5% Sandbox, now that he's decided that the way I play my video games isn't heroic enough, I think I'll move along and not bother with the box price.
Exactly why i got the hump, the fact they seem to be telling us how to play the game, the
point ppl in here are missing, but anyone who disagrees is branded a hater or SWG fanboi
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Sigh. Just read the thread, I wish all those disgruntled sandbox lovers/themepark haters would just find some game they like to play or leave off to go mope in some corner, but I guess that's too much wishful thinking
For everyone who doesn't walk around with a big brick wall in front of their face, it should be obvious by now: if someone is really disgusted, tired, repelled by themepark MMO gameplay to the point of nausea or bitterness and despair, then SWTOR won't be the game for him.
Simple as that: someone like that may not like it, but that's how SWTOR will be, a themepark MMO. If that's not what you're looking for in an MMORPG, show sense and move along towards an MMORPG that does fit your taste, or continue your ongoing search for an MMO that you love to play, instead of hanging around forums of games that you despise and dislike anyway. Just saying
Btw, Gaou, good quote updating
Originally posted by gaou
I understand that this might be disappointing for people that were looking for a game similar to another existing game, but again, we're not making a statement about the validity or size of the market that might want that type of game - we're just doing what we've always been doing - make our own game. As we frame it:
Create the first BioWare style MMO - a game with a strong narrative framework, companions and choreographed, fluid combat in the popular 'Old Republic' time frame of the Star Wars universe.
Says it all, I think.
They're making an MMORPG that they found best fitting for Bioware's game design philosophy. So far, more than 90% of those who actually played the game and talked about their experiences seemed to agree with their design of an MMORPG. Seems to me that not everyone can only find fun in sandbox MMO's or revolutionary, wildly different MMO's, more like the majority of MMO gamers can enjoy non-sandbox MMO's like SWTOR as well.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Sigh. Just read the thread, I wish all those disgruntled sandbox lovers/themepark haters would just find some game they like to play or leave off to go mope in some corner, but I guess that's too much wishful thinking
For everyone who doesn't walk around with a big brick wall in front of their face, it should be obvious by now: if someone is really disgusted, tired, repelled by themepark MMO gameplay to the point of nausea or bitterness and despair, then SWTOR won't be the game for him.
Simple as that: someone like that may not like it, but that's how SWTOR will be, a themepark MMO. If that's not what you're looking for in an MMORPG, show sense and move along towards an MMORPG that does fit your taste, or continue your ongoing search for an MMO that you love to play, instead of hanging around forums of games that you despise and dislike anyway. Just saying
Btw, Gaou, good quote updating
Originally posted by gaou
I understand that this might be disappointing for people that were looking for a game similar to another existing game, but again, we're not making a statement about the validity or size of the market that might want that type of game - we're just doing what we've always been doing - make our own game. As we frame it:
Create the first BioWare style MMO - a game with a strong narrative framework, companions and choreographed, fluid combat in the popular 'Old Republic' time frame of the Star Wars universe.
Says it all, I think.
They're making an MMORPG that they found best fitting for Bioware's game design philosophy. So far, more than 90% of those who actually played the game and talked about their experiences seemed to agree with their design of an MMORPG. Seems to me that not everyone can only find fun in sandbox MMO's or revolutionary, wildly different MMO's, more like the majority of MMO gamers can enjoy non-sandbox MMO's like SWTOR as well.
your welcome. i figure i should do it while i can before that restraining order from bioware gets here for stalking the dev tracker.
Sigh. Just read the thread, I wish all those disgruntled sandbox lovers/themepark haters would just find some game they like to play or leave off to go mope in some corner, but I guess that's too much wishful thinking
For everyone who doesn't walk around with a big brick wall in front of their face, it should be obvious by now: if someone is really disgusted, tired, repelled by themepark MMO gameplay to the point of nausea or bitterness and despair, then SWTOR won't be the game for him.
Simple as that: someone like that may not like it, but that's how SWTOR will be, a themepark MMO. If that's not what you're looking for in an MMORPG, show sense and move along towards an MMORPG that does fit your taste, or continue your ongoing search for an MMO that you love to play, instead of hanging around forums of games that you despise and dislike anyway. Just saying
Btw, Gaou, good quote updating
Originally posted by gaou
I understand that this might be disappointing for people that were looking for a game similar to another existing game, but again, we're not making a statement about the validity or size of the market that might want that type of game - we're just doing what we've always been doing - make our own game. As we frame it:
Create the first BioWare style MMO - a game with a strong narrative framework, companions and choreographed, fluid combat in the popular 'Old Republic' time frame of the Star Wars universe.
Says it all, I think.
They're making an MMORPG that they found best fitting for Bioware's game design philosophy. So far, more than 90% of those who actually played the game and talked about their experiences seemed to agree with their design of an MMORPG. Seems to me that not everyone can only find fun in sandbox MMO's or revolutionary, wildly different MMO's, more like the majority of MMO gamers can enjoy non-sandbox MMO's like SWTOR as well.
It seems no matter how much Bioware clarifies, there is no way to shut these sandboxer purist emos up. Even the people who are floating around saying "I don't like SWG, but TOR is too themeparkey" seem to be living in a state of total denial.
I almost feel pity for them anymore, similar to a lifelong Roman house slave shiftlessly wandering after the Empire fell. Unable to settle anywhere that doesn't treat them as harshly.
"Just to manage expectations (and I think we've posted this a number of times now in the last few years).
There is already a Star Wars MMO that focuses primarily on these features. We're making a different kind of game and we've been pretty open about that from the start.
That does not mean we are hostile to certain sandbox features such as player built housing - it just means that these kind of features are not a particularly high priority to us at this point as we navigate to ship.
There will certainly be out-of-combat player activities and activities that promote social interaction in the game, but you will not be able to take a job as a moisture farmer on Tatooine and simulate the life of such an individual in our game.
In short: Uncle Owen and his life is not the kind of heroic journey we're going for with this game. (The jawa's with their rocket launchers wouldn't make that a very fun activity anyway)."
Georg "Observer" Zoeller
Principal Lead Combat Designer
This was written in response to a thread on TOR's site asking for sandbox features.
SNIP
You are assuming that it is possible to somehow sway an angst ridden SWG vet to pick up a game that isn't an exact replica of their pre-whatever tearjerker game. It is probably a better move for them to not try to attract SWG vets with promises of this and that, as it would merely result in said players cancelling after the first comped month of a digital download sale. That of course leads to a double disgruntled player, and an unnecessary addition to negative buzz in the community, which would only serve to further dissuade an on-the-fence prospective player.
Besides, Bioware has always excercised their right to dickishness in response to hostile expectations. I for one find it refreshing. Were I in that same position of being a hate filled, entitled veteran of , walking up to a developer and saying "make your game a spiritual successor to , or I will forever haunt you with my picket sign and bullhorn," I'd rather be told flat out that I won't get what I want. There is no developer-community transaction more condescending and panderous than the old "now, this will be different than what you are used to, but you might like it anyway" line, it tends to leave a bad aftertaste more often than not.
Actually I'm assuming no such thing. I am assuming however that it is possible to antagonise them and cause controversy and drama where none is needed. Which just very well may help to polarise the fence sitters who aren't sure about this game. Whether they be old time MMO and SWG players, Burnt Wow players looking for a change, or didn't start playing MMOs until last week.
As to Bioware exercising their right to "dickishness" to respond to hostile expectations. Well first off the SOE SWG devs showed no shortage of that behavior either and look where it got them. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Second, did you bother to actually bother to go and read the original forum post this is from? While I feel the OP was asking for something he had no right to ask for, his behavior could hardly be classified as hostile. And in that resepct for a game developer to respond to his post with "dickishness" as you called it, is not only unwarrented but incredibly childish. A simple "Sorry we aren't doing that because we want to make our game our way" would have been sufficient.
Last but not least is your mention of condecention and pandering. Neither condecention, pandering or the reverse, telling a potential customer to just go "bleep" himself are a very bright thing to do when you are trying to sell something. And, if Bioware doesn't want to put up with all the drama that the SW ip brings, then they should have just made a game based off their own IP instead.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
wow, what people can put into words is realy wierd. i guess mr. zoeller has made his point and the game will speak for itself. other than that thers no need to impress anyone who didnt want to buy it anyway.
People behave like they are kings where they are 'just customers'. not saying that customers are not important. but thers a line where a customer is too hard to grab when hes too much of a spoiled brat. ofc bioware tries to fit everyones needs but all this text gives a good example what companys and developer have to swallow these days to get their product sold.
Well first off good work on your selective reading ability. I guess you chose to ignore the little caveat where I said that I could be seeing something that wasn't actually there.
[...]
Hmm. okay i might have missed this one on my mood. i still think that if the dev communicate without a PR filter (trained guys for just community works) i take it easy as i like this behaviour of communitcation alot better than the 'shiny responses' within the borders of a perfect crowd control.
Comments
You are assuming that it is possible to somehow sway an angst ridden SWG vet to pick up a game that isn't an exact replica of their pre-whatever tearjerker game. It is probably a better move for them to not try to attract SWG vets with promises of this and that, as it would merely result in said players cancelling after the first comped month of a digital download sale. That of course leads to a double disgruntled player, and an unnecessary addition to negative buzz in the community, which would only serve to further dissuade an on-the-fence prospective player.
Besides, Bioware has always excercised their right to dickishness in response to hostile expectations. I for one find it refreshing. Were I in that same position of being a hate filled, entitled veteran of <dead and buried game>, walking up to a developer and saying "make your game a spiritual successor to <dead and buried game>, or I will forever haunt you with my picket sign and bullhorn," I'd rather be told flat out that I won't get what I want. There is no developer-community transaction more condescending and panderous than the old "now, this will be different than what you are used to, but you might like it anyway" line, it tends to leave a bad aftertaste more often than not.
Devs having been saying that this was not intended as a sandbox since I started following it in late 2010, and I have known that it wasn't going to be a sandbox since screenshots and information surfaced back in 08.
instead of hitting the esc key 5 times to skip blabbering quest givers, we have to skip crappy
cinematics this is single player sort of content, plus the space comabt on rails...
yeh nice one bioware :P
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Glad I read the forums from time to time. I went back and found this , since I never saw it originally. In all fairness I was only halfway looking at this game coming out (far more interested in GW2 atm honestly) but was going to give this a spin when it came out anyway.
If this is the mind set from the get go I will avoid this game flat out. Since it costs so much to make these things and everyone seems to like being t-bagged by wow when it comes to development why dont they just liscense the wow engine and paste in their own stories - replace the epics with purple lasers and flying mounts with x-wings and call it good. After buying the ancient game engine you could develop it for 49.95$
Bio ware used to be innovative. Nice to see them entering the mmo market with a wow clone.
Fail.
TOR = themepark/some sandbox elements.
Bioware's intentions from the get go was to make, you the player be the hero of the game, not some smuck wandering around different cantina's dancing with sparkles and a light show.
Bioware wants you the player to live in the game world where you participate in a deep and diverse story, where choices matter to who and what you do in the game.
Bioware will also let you the player travel to all the planets in your own ship by the way, and not only get involved in combat situations but explore to your heart desire.
Bioware will also let you have companions, that will not only fight by your side, and will allow you to change and upgrade their weapons and armor, but also let them do your bidding in crafting and diplomatic missions.
All in all, seems like TOR will be a pretty diverse mmorpg that will merge both styles of gameplay, however more or less, togeither very nicely.
lol spot on
Fair nuff everyones entitled to their opinion but tbh when a company comes out & says this,
i dnt see how ppl can defend them nor the game, was can only judge it when its out, but
bioware are not inspiring confidence on this one
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Revolutionary feature here though!
Instead of clicking the "install" button once at the start and having to skip every cinematic afterwards you can also just not click the "install" button and it will automatically skip all the content you don't seem to like!
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
so if i just completely skip the swtor.exe install i can skip a multitude of crap in one click
...nah joking, we will see anyway, i'll give it a go but not building up my hopes
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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Played:
SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Many of those who followed this game have known for a while it's not a Sandbox, nor trying to be SWG 2.0; however, this comment of the "who want's to be a moisture farmer anyway" almost makes it seem like TOR will be NGE 2.0.
I remember them trying to justify NGE with this comment, and how it would make the game "more Star Warsy"
I don't think you were alone in reading into a tone, or general feeling by Mr. 'Observer' Georg Zoeller. He deffinatly had a day yesterday filling out many comments, and posting stuff, although this post does drip witha bit of hostle resentment. When were Rocket launcher Jawas ever a topic? Wait... Rocket Launcher Jawas? ARE THEY A PLAYER CLASS????
Bioware may actually be starting to feel a little pressure, and may start to realize, or it's starting to sink in, or they are starting to let slip a MMO, and a single player RPG are totaly different experiences.
Look at their space combat progression:
1) We hare doing space combat. 2) it's a shooter on rails, but you can choose during the mini-game, points to do A or B, fun right? 3) Shooter on Rails, like Star Fox, you know.. Lego Star Wars had it, that was fun, right? 4) we did say you could choose things on the rails, so it's not a straight rail.. I mean here you can go shoot a capital ships turrets, or skip it.. see choices. and finally... 5) We are exploring additional options for space content, but all will be based on player feedback and testing.
I just hope Bioware focuses on their game, and stop baiting potential players with what their game is not. Or stiring up the embers of hate from 6 years ago. Then again, powerfull the dark side is.
SWTOR. Face it, in the Scooby Doo Mystery Solving Van of coolness, this game is Velma. In this current MMO climate it has about as much chance for survival as a group of inquisitive teenagers in a 1980s slasher flick. -Tardcore May, 2011
True they have been on the same page since the start but the disgruntled swgers will never give up.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
georg added more:
GeorgZoeller General Discussion -> Why player Housing, Sandbox worlds, and player generated content is important...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikalonius
Georg, way to parrot Nancy McIntyre's infamous New York Times eye poke:
It was fallacious then, and it's fallacious now. Nobody really wants to play a moisture farmer. People, overwhelming, over dozens of MMO titles simply want a place to call their own where they can build a collection of items that represents their journey through the universe. I'm sure most, like myself, would be happy with just decorating the inside of our ship. Aside from that, I would like to have an instanced apartment where that I can make my own. Many, many players feel this way, it's its just downright insulting to have developers pretend that doesn't exist, or to marginalize it by using a red herring like "moisture farmer."
Hey,
I don't know who Nancy is and she's done, but I think you're reading a bit too much into my statement.
Sure, moisture farmer is an oversimplification used to describe a Life Simulation type game, but we're not arguing that there is no market for this type of content. If that offended you, apologies.
I am just trying to make it clear, without any ambiguity, that since there is already a product on the market that focuses exactly on the described content, that we have chosen to make a different type of game and that we've been quite forward about it from the start.
This is not meant to judge or marginalize the audience that exists for such a type of game. I just want to be as straight forward as possible about this so we don't develop unreasonable expectations regarding the positioning and direction of The Old Republic.
I understand that this might be disappointing for people that were looking for a game similar to another existing game, but again, we're not making a statement about the validity or size of the market that might want that type of game - we're just doing what we've always been doing - make our own game. As we frame it:
Create the first BioWare style MMO - a game with a strong narrative framework, companions and choreographed, fluid combat in the popular 'Old Republic' time frame of the Star Wars universe.
GeorgZoeller General Discussion -> Why player Housing, Sandbox worlds, and player generated content is important...And, again:
We're certainly aware that individuality and customization is important to players, regardless of where they fall on the sandbox vs. themepark scale. There is no question about that.
GeorgZoeller General Discussion -> Why player Housing, Sandbox worlds, and player generated content is important...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraye
And not being able to do anything properly in-game without a companion...a friggin' npc to help you ge through the game is Heroic? Without the NPC companion you are all but a joke in TOR....yup thats real heroic.....sure is :P
Heroes - at least in Star Wars - usually have sidekicks. In fact, it's hard to find many that don't. It's kind of a prerequisite of calling yourself a hero.
WOW, I've followed this game for years and I thought this game was going to be a true sandbox.
THIS IS A SLAP IN THE FACE.
Bioware sucks now!
Were people really still thinking this game was going to be a themepark sandbox like MO or god forbid, SWG? rofl. oh boy.
Tbh this sort of comment "who want's to be a moisture farmer anyway" is a little disrepectful
to the IP.
Games need a diversity of class & not just all combat, not everyone wants to pew pew.
thing is most ppl want a "i win button" with cartoon graphics & a glowwy red LS
so this will atract that same immature wow community.
I wouldnt mind playing a bartender or a shopkeeper or a moisture farmer,
I loved the crafting in swg, unique, i loved the player based economy & community
having a deep crafting side gives diversity, it allows you to switch off from the "grind"
& the pwe pew.
This is why i hated wow, it got boring fast, just raids & pvp, thats it... yawn
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Exactly, you are part of that crowd that would never be pleased by anything that isn't a direct replica of SWG. Why should they try to placate you with words?
Can't really get a better attitude then that.
I'll wait for the first reviews after release to ensure the game isn't obviously bad ( you quickly notice if a game is buggy, laggy etc. ) and if those are halfway positive I'll buy the game and try it for the free month. Likely, seeing as it's Bioware, it will be good enough to experience the story. It's supposed to be 8 times the length of KotOR or even more so even if I just do all the single-player stuff and only half the class stories interest me then I can still play 10 months ( 3 months = 45 bucks = price of KotOR length game. Box price + free month + 9 months = price of 4 KotOR length games ) so I'm guessing I'll still come ahead.
After that we'll see. If the MMO aspects suck then I still got to enjoy a good single player game at a cheaper price and if it rocks then I got exactly what I wanted.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Not at all, otherwise id say that, dont be so facetious
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
lol i like it
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed. Nice job insulting all of the Pre-CUNGE "moisture farmers," there, friend. There's a good way to say "No!" and there's a bad way to say "No!" This was the bad way. I was on the fence, even knowing that it was 80% Jedi 15% WoW in Space 5% Sandbox, now that he's decided that the way I play my video games isn't heroic enough, I think I'll move along and not bother with the box price.
Exactly why i got the hump, the fact they seem to be telling us how to play the game, the
point ppl in here are missing, but anyone who disagrees is branded a hater or SWG fanboi
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Sigh. Just read the thread, I wish all those disgruntled sandbox lovers/themepark haters would just find some game they like to play or leave off to go mope in some corner, but I guess that's too much wishful thinking
For everyone who doesn't walk around with a big brick wall in front of their face, it should be obvious by now: if someone is really disgusted, tired, repelled by themepark MMO gameplay to the point of nausea or bitterness and despair, then SWTOR won't be the game for him.
Simple as that: someone like that may not like it, but that's how SWTOR will be, a themepark MMO. If that's not what you're looking for in an MMORPG, show sense and move along towards an MMORPG that does fit your taste, or continue your ongoing search for an MMO that you love to play, instead of hanging around forums of games that you despise and dislike anyway. Just saying
Btw, Gaou, good quote updating
Says it all, I think.
They're making an MMORPG that they found best fitting for Bioware's game design philosophy. So far, more than 90% of those who actually played the game and talked about their experiences seemed to agree with their design of an MMORPG. Seems to me that not everyone can only find fun in sandbox MMO's or revolutionary, wildly different MMO's, more like the majority of MMO gamers can enjoy non-sandbox MMO's like SWTOR as well.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
your welcome. i figure i should do it while i can before that restraining order from bioware gets here for stalking the dev tracker.
It seems no matter how much Bioware clarifies, there is no way to shut these sandboxer purist emos up. Even the people who are floating around saying "I don't like SWG, but TOR is too themeparkey" seem to be living in a state of total denial.
I almost feel pity for them anymore, similar to a lifelong Roman house slave shiftlessly wandering after the Empire fell. Unable to settle anywhere that doesn't treat them as harshly.
Actually I'm assuming no such thing. I am assuming however that it is possible to antagonise them and cause controversy and drama where none is needed. Which just very well may help to polarise the fence sitters who aren't sure about this game. Whether they be old time MMO and SWG players, Burnt Wow players looking for a change, or didn't start playing MMOs until last week.
As to Bioware exercising their right to "dickishness" to respond to hostile expectations. Well first off the SOE SWG devs showed no shortage of that behavior either and look where it got them. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Second, did you bother to actually bother to go and read the original forum post this is from? While I feel the OP was asking for something he had no right to ask for, his behavior could hardly be classified as hostile. And in that resepct for a game developer to respond to his post with "dickishness" as you called it, is not only unwarrented but incredibly childish. A simple "Sorry we aren't doing that because we want to make our game our way" would have been sufficient.
Last but not least is your mention of condecention and pandering. Neither condecention, pandering or the reverse, telling a potential customer to just go "bleep" himself are a very bright thing to do when you are trying to sell something. And, if Bioware doesn't want to put up with all the drama that the SW ip brings, then they should have just made a game based off their own IP instead.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Well said Tardcore
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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Played:
SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Hmm. okay i might have missed this one on my mood. i still think that if the dev communicate without a PR filter (trained guys for just community works) i take it easy as i like this behaviour of communitcation alot better than the 'shiny responses' within the borders of a perfect crowd control.
sry for the harsh engagement there.