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Client-Side hit detection doesnt work?
kallearses
Member Posts: 44
in this video we see that the hit detection works quite accurate. doesnt most of us believe in the past that this will never work?
personally im sure with the expansion i will try to test the trial and make my own opinion about the game.
so far enjoy the video.
Comments
^This. Very good reason to stay away from this MMO.
I don't think you understand the issue related to client side hit detection. The best comparison I have ever seen was someone who described it as: "Client Side hit detection in an MMORPG is kind of like playing cops and robbers as a kid. I hit you, no you didn't, yes I did..."
Now that said... it's not a simple thing to have server side hit detection either. Server side would increase the latency (lag) experienced in game. Hopefully some day someone a lot smarter than me will come up with an ideal solution.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Oh, It's this debate AGAIN.
Haven't we been over this 1000 times already.
Every game is client side hit detection. Even Darkfall.
There are anti hacks in place that prevent cheating. Feel free to post a youtube video that proves me wrong. Make sure to include the client version in the video.
Never trust a screenshot or a youtube video without a version stamp!
Unfortunately client-side hit detection is the only way to make a game like this work on current technology. Still, I don't think there is anything wrong with it as long as the developers take steps to minimize cheating.
Client side hit detection should never be in an MMO.
Otherwise the MMO was designed wrong.
It is true that many games do not have client side hit detection, but this is not true for games with FPS-style combat. It is not possible to do server-side hit detection in a FPS-style game with current technology, so the only solution is to try to minimize hacking as much as possible on games that utilize client-side detection. Unfortunately you can't have it both ways... either you go with the boring classic combat system used in almost every MMO, or you take a risk and use client side detection to provide something different.
You have to design your game to use the proper technology at hand. When you have a client-side system it is going to be hacked, period. As many 'anti-cheat' systems as you might have, they will still be defeated, and ruin the gameplay for others. In some cases it might be no big deal, however in other cases it may be extremely imbalancing. In Darkfall it was extremely imbalancing, and in MO it would be extremely imbalancing if anybody bothered to play it.
Thankfully the population of MO is so low, that I don't think hacking is an issue at all, because there's nobody to play against and use your hacks. So in that respect it works out well. However when you design software of ANY kind, you have to know the limits and goals of your system and use the technology that is either out there, or you know you can build yourself. And since SV is using all the network code from Epic, and have no idea how to build it on their own, they would have been smarter to have had two hitboxes (front/back) and have them serverside, rather than 10 hitboxes and have them clientside. In a game that has lag and network use, the idea that you can hit any of the 10 hitboxes reliably with SCALE is ridiculous, but it's funny to see how SV has come along with their design. It has no semblance of reality. That said, it's not a surprise since none of the "developers" has ever shipped a commercial piece of software, ever.
You know its funny... I find the population in game to be rather healthy and I am getting into PvP encounters quite frequently. I hear otherwise on these forums, but that doesn't seem to represent reality. But then again, I actually play the game.
Both Darkfall and MO have the same potential for cheats because they both utilize client-side hit detection. I have never seen any MMO pull off FPS-style combat with server-side detection. From everything I have read on the subject, it isn't currently achievable. If you can think of an MMO that has actually succeeded at this, please let me know. Unfortunately there just isn't any way around this without going to a standard MMO combat system. No one who actually likes MO or Darkfall wants this, so the only alternative is to try and minimize cheating and to ban known offenders. Both MO and Darkfall have attempted to do so and both games have banned many offenders. Neither company may be entirely successful in their attempts to stop hacking, but the truth is there are cheaters in every game.
There's a good reason nobody does server side hit detection in an FPS type of game -- because it's not reliable. Until we all have ISPs that are super fast, don't drop packets, etc... the code of the game has to reflect the population that's going to play it.
It's nice to have big ideas, and with Razorwax, at least they built their own engine, so to discover the "hacks" is something they would have the ability to mitigate. But since SV uses Epic entirely for their netcode, the entire network stack, hit detection, etc.. is a black box to them. They have no way to mitigate hacks. FPS games that come out nowadays (not MMOs) like Bad Company 2, or COD series, have SERVER SIDE hit detection, because of the high probability of hacking; plus the fact that a lot of "hits" won't be registered due to lag and other problems.
I'm all for having a game that has an FPS feel with multiple hitboxes. But it has yet to be done well, and for an indy studio to do it doesn't make it a good idea. Like I said, for DF at least they know their own code and environment, but SV has no idea what is going on, and makes it that much worse, especially when the CEO blames EVERYTHING on Epic.
it's as if it's just a big scam. I mean, peopel are paying cold hard cash for a sub, when the game is more or less in alpha quality, and the current devs have not got a clue what theyre doing. At all.
So the answer is to simply not have mmofps's then, nice work-around there.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Just because SV is using Epic's engine does not mean they can't do anything about cheating. There are methods of hack detection that they can implement to minimize it. Also, you act as though SV has not coded any of their game themselves. That is blatantly false. They have made huge changes to the code for MO.
Furthermore, the CEO does not blame everything on Epic. Yes, he has blamed certain things on them, but there have also been many times when he has admitted that SV themselves caused issues. Unfortunately I think my arguing in defense of SV is an exercise in futility as there are some people on this forum who will simply never post anything positive about it... not that I'm calling anyone out specifically.
Weve aleady established that certain people dont like Starvault in thousands of posts on this site over the past year and a half, but thanks anyway herculesSaS ... now to get onto the topic at hand.
Any mmo you play can be hacked. Does that mean you wont play MMO's because of that?
I am glad you take them at their word for "making huge changes" to the code.
I on the other hand, know the caliber of the people working at SV, none of them have the KNOWLEDGE to update the code in the Epic engine, so while you may think they have done it just because Henrik said so, I know they don't have the ability. Socket work and engine development are the hallmarks of extremely experienced developers, of which they have none. They have an Unreal Scripter as their main programmer, and we've already seen what happens when they try to make their own code in the first patching software they made. It threw errors in Swedish and didn't work worth a damn. And they are going to heavily modify the U3 engine and Atlas code? Please.
According to you they don't have the knowledge. And what proof do you have? School transcripts indicating they don't have CS degrees? Or perhaps you can read their minds and that is how you know exactly what knowledge they posess? Not likely...
I think it is far more likely that you feel burned by SV for some reason... and because of this you jump at any opportunity to badmouth them and to paint them as failures. I doubt you have any real knowledge about the people working at SV other than your assumptions and what you have read on these forums.
I doubt the accuracy of claims made without the type of internal personal knowledge required. I also don't think it's impossible to learn more over the course of a few years.
Strangely enough, the game actually HAS gotten better since launch, and not just by a little bit. Additionally, I believe they've gotten a good handle on hacking problems. Granted, hacks are a potential problem for every game, but I believe MO has improved in this area as well.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
According to ANYBODY that is a professional in this type of environment, they don't have the knowledge. You will never find a programmer that has the ability to do complex math that applies in a game engine and modify it for use in a way that makes an MMO better, without having significant amount of experience working in the world. And that's who SV has. They have a guy who has *never* made a piece of software IN HIS LIFE. I'm not talking about taking part in making a game engine, I'm talking about making NOTEPAD. This is not an "assumption" that's the reality, whether or not you choose to believe it. That's the nice thing about facts, they continue to be true despite your belief in them.
As for the degrees, I know a lot of good programmers who don't have degrees. But what do they have instead? A LOT of experience. The CS degrees don't make you a good programmer, they give you structure. They teach you the conceptual things like milestones, roadmaps, unit testing, iterative testing, etc. The actual code is mostly logic based, and you either can do that, or you can't. The problem is as I said, not only does the lead programmer for MO not have a degree, he also has NO EXPERIENCE.
Now whether you continue to believe the BS that Henrik spouts about how they modified the code of the engine or not is kind of irrelevant to me. If you want to believe it, go ahead. It doesn't change the fact that every patch they've deployed wound up breaking the game in some other way. *EVERY* patch. It doesn't change the fact that they can't implement a new system without a problem. It doesn't change the fact that a "fan" made their patcher because their own work was so terrible. It doesn't change the fact that you still float above the ground while walking, AI runs head-on into trees, and the rubberbanding and hit detection is atrocious. If all those things were different, I might give credence to your notion that SV had some modicum of knowledge. But they don't.
I know it's comforting to think that expertise in a field makes a person "all-knowing" about everything and everyone working in that field, but it's just not accurate. "Expert power" does not grant omniscience. An opinion does not become fact by repetition, no matter how forcefully stated.
This is no longer 2007. While pursuing this line of persuasion, the point becomes less and less credible on its face. Some of the developers at SV now have several years worth of experience in game programming - this game, to be exact.
One important element in determining the credibility of a source is the presence (or absence) of direct access. As validation, perhaps you can show this forum verified internal documentation on processes or personal information from SV - or at least something more than a cursory analysis based on second- or third-hand open source anecdotal reporting.
Otherwise, what you're providing is opinion and guesswork, not fact.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I was talking about MMORPGs... which I think is pretty clear based on the context of my response. If you can think of a non-instanced MMORPG with FPS-style combat that is entirely server-side, please enlighten me. I'm sure a lot of people would love to know how they pulled that off.
To be fair though.. what you describe is EXACTLY the reason that there aren't very many "non-instanced MMORPG with FPS style combat" at all. It's kind of a situation where you pick your poison. Make it serverside and you have latency issues, make it clientside and you have hack issues as well as interpolation/prediction issues.
I'm really looking forward to the rumored Elder Scrolls MMO. Hopefully they have the money to come up with an ideal solution to this issue. We will see.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Let's avoid personal arguments guys. Thanks.
As a long time Elder Scrolls fan, I am also looking forward to their rumored MMO. If it does have FPS-style combat, I imagine it will utilize some client-side detection like MO and Darkfall do. I doubt it would be as focused on PvP though, so it may not matter as much in that particular game.
Of course, even server-side games have had problems with hacking. I'm unaware of a 100% hack-proof game, no matter how much money they spend.
I just want to play an enjoyable game with fairly solid security (I know none will be perfect, so won't maintain that unrealistic expectation). Elder Scrolls would probably be good, but given AoC/WAR/Aion/DCUO/etc, there's no guarantee that it'll be done well, no matter the budget. The "big guys" developing a game has not been a guarantee of greatness.
Right now, Mortal Online works for me.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
anybody knows a game who can prove a 100% guarantee of a cheatfree game, especially works on a server side hit detection?
i research a lot but dont found any popular game out there. even bf1942 was serverside but had a lot of wallhacks and such things
No game is unhackable serverside or clientside, hackfree will be based on the number of people playing, the more people in the game the more incentive for dickheads to hack. CSHD just has more damaging hacks. The 'wallhacks' in BF are due to that part of the game being CS.
There is no real short term solution to this, it's just the way it's going to be for a while. As we know there are a few new services which allow you to use your pc essentially as a dumb terminal and play on the pc's over the web, this includes mmo's. These would essenytially be hackfree so the potential for seperate servers for people using these services only could prove to be cheat free. (Can't find the link to this service atm)
But for now if you want my opinion just get in planetside and live with the sad bastards who have a severe case of inferiority. They are there but in the long run who cares in PS there's no real lasting damage to dieing to a hacker so does it really matter just ignore the cocks, or any game for that matter, but in PS you got tripple shot JH
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.