There are many people who choose to continue to do things they don't entirely enjoy anymore, because they're addicted to it. The most "successful" MMOs are fun at the ground level for many, but at the high end they're maticulously designed skinner boxes with intent to keep players latched onto playing through the exact same content dozens or even hundreds of times over.
Then those people are idiots. Paying for something that you don't want to do is stupid. Am I supposed to have any sympathy for these morons?
I don't.
It doesn't change anything though. People are paying for these games, the games are financially successful. Someone whining "waah, I don't have any fun!" doesn't change reality.
I SO do not agree with this. If that were true, sites like MMORPG.com wouldn't even exist. Yes, one goal of a game is to make profit or at least make out even but as I'm sure many people on these forums work in the game industry as I do, we don't make games to make money. We make'em cuz to us it's fun and we want other peeps to enjoy them as well.
So you're working for free? You get no paycheck? Because, you're just making games for fun, you don't want to make a profit out of it, right?
MMORPG.com is making plenty of profit, that's why all the ads are everywhere. If it wasn't, it wouldn't exist.
There are many people who choose to continue to do things they don't entirely enjoy anymore, because they're addicted to it. The most "successful" MMOs are fun at the ground level for many, but at the high end they're maticulously designed skinner boxes with intent to keep players latched onto playing through the exact same content dozens or even hundreds of times over.
Then those people are idiots. Paying for something that you don't want to do is stupid. Am I supposed to have any sympathy for these morons?
I don't.
It doesn't change anything though. People are paying for these games, the games are financially successful. Someone whining "waah, I don't have any fun!" doesn't change reality.
It does if enough people wake up and realize that that logging in to pull the same lever over and over again isn't quite as fun as they had fooled themselves into believing.
I'm not saying MMOs aren't fun at all, simply that a lot of that 'fun' and 'sense of accomplishment' are inflated through clever design intended to keep us gamers contently running the exact same content countless times over. If you're still having fun pulling the same levers over and over again, then it's fine for you. For others who have realized that game design has devolved into this pathetic state of affairs, we'd like focus to move back to actual decent gameplay.
It won't stop developers from employing this type of "pseudoscience" to manipulate the weak minded.
Yep, superstitiousness is dangerous.
Call it what you will, but it won't change that pretty much every marketing department around the world perscribes to these 'superstitions' to sell their products oh so effectively to people like yourself who are convinced that marketing has no influence on your consumer tendencies.
Originally posted by Ceridith Call it what you will, but it won't change that pretty much every marketing department around the world perscribes to these 'superstitions' to sell their products oh so effectively to people like yourself who are convinced that marketing has no influence on your consumer tendencies.
Two different things. Marketing does work and it is way cleaner than psychology.
Just because marketing works does not mean psychology work too.
It does if enough people wake up and realize that that logging in to pull the same lever over and over again isn't quite as fun as they had fooled themselves into believing.
I'm not saying MMOs aren't fun at all, simply that a lot of that 'fun' and 'sense of accomplishment' are inflated through clever design intended to keep us gamers contently running the exact same content countless times over. If you're still having fun pulling the same levers over and over again, then it's fine for you. For others who have realized that game design has devolved into this pathetic state of affairs, we'd like focus to move back to actual decent gameplay.
Yeah, good luck on that. Virtually every industry does the same thing. Look at TV. Look at the movies. They keep remaking and redoing and copying everything that's already come out and people flock to the theaters. These industries are raking in money hand over fist. People can't wait to throw their money away. Smart people or dumb people, these people have money and that's all that matters.
Whether or not MMOs are fun for you is really irrelevant. Play it if you want. Otherwise don't. I just get sick of people spending all their time whining about it, like somehow they're entitled to get the perfect game. This is what MMOs are. Take it or leave it.
Im positive majority play or dont play a game when it have alot of people or less people, game have fungameplay or boring gameplay, game have hardcore pvp or casual pvp.
People dont play games becouse it makes alot of money or less money, maybe they say this on forums but thats not case when they actually start playing game they look first if its fun and have enough players or other reasons but not money wise.
Im positive majority play or dont play a game when it have alot of people or less people, game have fungameplay or boring gameplay, game have hardcore pvp or casual pvp.
People dont play games becouse it makes alot of money or less money, maybe they say this on forums but thats not case when they actually start playing game they look first if its fun and have enough players or other reasons but not money wise.
No, they play games because they enjoy them and as a consequence of lots of people enjoying playing the game, the game makes lots of money. Simple economics.
Call it what you will, but it won't change that pretty much every marketing department around the world perscribes to these 'superstitions' to sell their products oh so effectively to people like yourself who are convinced that marketing has no influence on your consumer tendencies.
Two different things. Marketing does work and it is way cleaner than psychology.
Just because marketing works does not mean psychology work too.
Except for the fact that the majority of marketing uses psychology as the backbone of it's theory and practice.
It does if enough people wake up and realize that that logging in to pull the same lever over and over again isn't quite as fun as they had fooled themselves into believing.
I'm not saying MMOs aren't fun at all, simply that a lot of that 'fun' and 'sense of accomplishment' are inflated through clever design intended to keep us gamers contently running the exact same content countless times over. If you're still having fun pulling the same levers over and over again, then it's fine for you. For others who have realized that game design has devolved into this pathetic state of affairs, we'd like focus to move back to actual decent gameplay.
Yeah, good luck on that. Virtually every industry does the same thing. Look at TV. Look at the movies. They keep remaking and redoing and copying everything that's already come out and people flock to the theaters. These industries are raking in money hand over fist. People can't wait to throw their money away. Smart people or dumb people, these people have money and that's all that matters.
Whether or not MMOs are fun for you is really irrelevant. Play it if you want. Otherwise don't. I just get sick of people spending all their time whining about it, like somehow they're entitled to get the perfect game. This is what MMOs are. Take it or leave it.
One question for you...
Why do you look at these forums and take part in discussions?
As futile as you claim complaining about the state of MMOs is, isn't it even more futile trying to argue against those doing it that they shouldn't?
Why do you look at these forums and take part in discussions?
As futile as you claim complaining about the state of MMOs is, isn't it even more futile trying to argue against those doing it that they shouldn't?
There's a difference between discussing and complaining. There are lots of people here who do nothing but complain. MMOs are horrible! There's nothing good to play! They DESERVE a good MMO! They want to bitch and whine and moan about everything and most of them are complaining about the MMO they're playing, but suggest they just stop paying for something they don't even like and they jump down your throat. The heresy of suggesting there's something else on the planet to do but play a stupid online video game?!?!? THE HORROR!
How many threads are started with "MMOs suck! I deserve something better"? These are people who just don't comprehend the basic economics behind the game industry, but they're sure good at demanding games that would be entirely financially unfeasible, aren't they?
You all want to know about marketing? I'll tell you about marketing.
Once upon a time, there was this toothbrush salesman. And while every other toothbush salesman for this company was struggling with sales, this particular fellow was selling them with wild success.
So one day, the sales supervisor came to the office and met up with this super toothbrush salesman. "I'm going with you today", he said. "I want to see how you do it, so I can pass this along to our other salesmen."
"Fine" said the salesman. "Lets go."
So the Salesman takes his supervisor to the airport. They walk inside, and stand past the check-in lines on the way to the boarding areas. And as people walked by, the salesman opens up a box of brownies. He then stops someone and says "Hi, I have this box of brownies. I sell them for $69.95, so they must be good. Would you like to try one?" As the person accepts the brownie, he takes a bite out of it, and immediately spits it out onto the floor, and says with disgust "That tastes like SHAT!"
And the salesman whips out a toothbrush and says "It IS shat! Do you want to buy a toothbrush?"
Then he turns to his supervisor and says "I call that 'cash shop' sales. I create a demand after giving them shat."
Why do you look at these forums and take part in discussions?
As futile as you claim complaining about the state of MMOs is, isn't it even more futile trying to argue against those doing it that they shouldn't?
There's a difference between discussing and complaining. There are lots of people here who do nothing but complain. MMOs are horrible! There's nothing good to play! They DESERVE a good MMO! They want to bitch and whine and moan about everything and most of them are complaining about the MMO they're playing, but suggest they just stop paying for something they don't even like and they jump down your throat. The heresy of suggesting there's something else on the planet to do but play a stupid online video game?!?!? THE HORROR!
How many threads are started with "MMOs suck! I deserve something better"? These are people who just don't comprehend the basic economics behind the game industry, but they're sure good at demanding games that would be entirely financially unfeasible, aren't they?
What you consider to be whining from some, is actual constructive criticism.
I'm one of the many that thinks MMOs these days are very lackluster. Do I demand that developers make an MMO closer to the oldschool model? No. Would I like one? Yes, and I've said on several occasions that I would. Your perception on the other hand, may view such criticism and request as whining and demanding.
There are countless discussions on these forums that talk about what individual players feel is the shortcomings of current MMOs. There are countless discussions of people stating how they miss certain game mechanics that were present in older games, but completely lacking in new games. In both such discussions, there is discussion from many different views about what players would like to see. The impression I get from your posts, is that any such discussion is futile, irrelevant, and nothing more than whining and demanding.
Originally posted by CeridithThere are countless discussions on these forums that talk about what individual players feel
Feelings do not contribute to constructive discussion, imo... they are just subjective perception without reasoning and/arguments. With no arguments/reasoning, I do not see anything to discuss.
Take this thread or similar 'The industry needs more 'sandbox' games'. People come there and say that there is market for 'sandbox' games and basically all their 'reasoning' and 'arguments' are that 'sandboxes' way superior to 'themeparks'.
Such statements isn't based on arguments or any evidence nor they contain any reasoning. It is just subjective perception based on erroneously projected personal preference.
Constructive discussion starts with considering evidence and arguments which may lead to conclusion. This evidence and arguments, conclusion if it can be made, is something to discuss, subjective perception is not - you can only agree or not.
What you consider to be whining from some, is actual constructive criticism.
I'm one of the many that thinks MMOs these days are very lackluster. Do I demand that developers make an MMO closer to the oldschool model? No. Would I like one? Yes, and I've said on several occasions that I would. Your perception on the other hand, may view such criticism and request as whining and demanding.
There are countless discussions on these forums that talk about what individual players feel is the shortcomings of current MMOs. There are countless discussions of people stating how they miss certain game mechanics that were present in older games, but completely lacking in new games. In both such discussions, there is discussion from many different views about what players would like to see. The impression I get from your posts, is that any such discussion is futile, irrelevant, and nothing more than whining and demanding.
There is a point at which people simply have to accept the reality of the situation. MMOs today are solo-centric affairs. Why? That's what makes the most money. It's been proven over and over and over again. It's unlikely to change any time soon. Therefore, calling for an old-school MMO is pointless, nobody, especially a AAA developer, is going to make one. Accept that and move on. Sitting around and whining "waaah, I want an old-school MMO" is about as pointless as complaining "waaah, I want a million dollars!" That's not constructive criticism, it's screaming at the sky demanding you get what you want. It's not going to happen. There comes a time when people need to realize there are no MMOs they want to play and instead of whining about it, they go find something else to do. Old-school is dead. It died for a reason. Accept it and move on.
Why do you look at these forums and take part in discussions?
As futile as you claim complaining about the state of MMOs is, isn't it even more futile trying to argue against those doing it that they shouldn't?
There's a difference between discussing and complaining. There are lots of people here who do nothing but complain. MMOs are horrible! There's nothing good to play! They DESERVE a good MMO! They want to bitch and whine and moan about everything and most of them are complaining about the MMO they're playing, but suggest they just stop paying for something they don't even like and they jump down your throat. The heresy of suggesting there's something else on the planet to do but play a stupid online video game?!?!? THE HORROR!
How many threads are started with "MMOs suck! I deserve something better"? These are people who just don't comprehend the basic economics behind the game industry, but they're sure good at demanding games that would be entirely financially unfeasible, aren't they?
What you consider to be whining from some, is actual constructive criticism.
I'm one of the many that thinks MMOs these days are very lackluster. Do I demand that developers make an MMO closer to the oldschool model? No. Would I like one? Yes, and I've said on several occasions that I would. Your perception on the other hand, may view such criticism and request as whining and demanding.
There are countless discussions on these forums that talk about what individual players feel is the shortcomings of current MMOs. There are countless discussions of people stating how they miss certain game mechanics that were present in older games, but completely lacking in new games. In both such discussions, there is discussion from many different views about what players would like to see. The impression I get from your posts, is that any such discussion is futile, irrelevant, and nothing more than whining and demanding.
What is "entirely financially unfeasible"?
I don't think anyone on these forums is qualified to make that determination.
Is an FFA PvP game "entirely financially unfeasible"?
A lot of people say that, but then EVE goes ahead and makes money anyway.
that's because a feature is not a game.
A game has 100's of features, and it's the combination of those features, how they are implemented, along with the lore, artwork, and the community that develops that determines financial feasibility.
Not just one feature.
Could a game that encourages grouping and is not solo friendly like WoW to the level cap be "financially feasible"?
Yes, I'm sure it could depending on the other 100's of features in teh game, how they were implemented, and the lore, artwork, and the community that developed around such a game.
Just like a game that is solo friendly could be entirely unfeasible financially, if the rest of the features suck, and so does the artwork, and the community.
Saying, games that encourage grouping are financially unfeasible, they will all fail because WoW is solo friendly! is just talking out of your ass.
You don't have any idea what feature in a game will make it unfeasible financially. You know what you like, and you're probably gonna call anything you don't like "financially unfeasible" but that's about it.
What you consider to be whining from some, is actual constructive criticism.
I'm one of the many that thinks MMOs these days are very lackluster. Do I demand that developers make an MMO closer to the oldschool model? No. Would I like one? Yes, and I've said on several occasions that I would. Your perception on the other hand, may view such criticism and request as whining and demanding.
There are countless discussions on these forums that talk about what individual players feel is the shortcomings of current MMOs. There are countless discussions of people stating how they miss certain game mechanics that were present in older games, but completely lacking in new games. In both such discussions, there is discussion from many different views about what players would like to see. The impression I get from your posts, is that any such discussion is futile, irrelevant, and nothing more than whining and demanding.
There is a point at which people simply have to accept the reality of the situation. MMOs today are solo-centric affairs. Why? That's what makes the most money. It's been proven over and over and over again. It's unlikely to change any time soon. Therefore, calling for an old-school MMO is pointless, nobody, especially a AAA developer, is going to make one. Accept that and move on. Sitting around and whining "waaah, I want an old-school MMO" is about as pointless as complaining "waaah, I want a million dollars!" That's not constructive criticism, it's screaming at the sky demanding you get what you want. It's not going to happen. There comes a time when people need to realize there are no MMOs they want to play and instead of whining about it, they go find something else to do. Old-school is dead. It died for a reason. Accept it and move on.
Your conclusion is that no one could use an "old school" feature, in a game in a way that is new and innovative.
That all games must be the same, if they have one particular feature in them, regardless of the other 100's of features they have, or the way those features are implemented.
This topic is going around in circles as fast as the Daytona 500. And it's beating a dead horse around every lap this thread takes. Like I said before none of who doesn't have industry experience can't truly tell. We we do is speculate.
Your conclusion is that no one could use an "old school" feature, in a game in a way that is new and innovative.
That all games must be the same, if they have one particular feature in them, regardless of the other 100's of features they have, or the way those features are implemented.
I don't think that's correct.
I never said an old school feature, I said an old school MMO. Lots of people seem to be looking for UO with shiny new graphics and that kind of game simply will never fly again, no matter what it looks like. You can take a feature here and there and it might work. Trying to recreate the past, however, is doomed to failure.
Your conclusion is that no one could use an "old school" feature, in a game in a way that is new and innovative.
That all games must be the same, if they have one particular feature in them, regardless of the other 100's of features they have, or the way those features are implemented.
I don't think that's correct.
I never said an old school feature, I said an old school MMO. Lots of people seem to be looking for UO with shiny new graphics and that kind of game simply will never fly again, no matter what it looks like. You can take a feature here and there and it might work. Trying to recreate the past, however, is doomed to failure.
Since when were the people who enjoyed oldschool MMOs asking for the same old games?
Rather than beat around the bush I'll answer that for you... they're not.
There are many gamers on these forums that enjoyed various aspects of oldschool MMOs, the culmination of which is what caused them to enjoy older MMOs more than the modern ones. What they are asking for instead, is a game similar to what the oldschool games perscribed to, not "UO with shiny new graphics".
You can claim that trying to recreate the past is doomed to failure. Well, ignoring the past is another path to failure. There are many decent gameplay concepts that were present in older MMOs that are completely void in new MMOs. Not because they were fundamentally flawed or unenjoyable, but because there is the perception of today's developers that these features aren't worthy of development resources. A lot of the discussion that goes on in these forums is, in some ways, an attempt to disprove that development attention to such features would in fact not be a waste as there are many people who are indeed interested in such.
What you consider to be whining from some, is actual constructive criticism.
I'm one of the many that thinks MMOs these days are very lackluster. Do I demand that developers make an MMO closer to the oldschool model? No. Would I like one? Yes, and I've said on several occasions that I would. Your perception on the other hand, may view such criticism and request as whining and demanding.
There are countless discussions on these forums that talk about what individual players feel is the shortcomings of current MMOs. There are countless discussions of people stating how they miss certain game mechanics that were present in older games, but completely lacking in new games. In both such discussions, there is discussion from many different views about what players would like to see. The impression I get from your posts, is that any such discussion is futile, irrelevant, and nothing more than whining and demanding.
There is a point at which people simply have to accept the reality of the situation. MMOs today are solo-centric affairs. Why? That's what makes the most money. It's been proven over and over and over again. It's unlikely to change any time soon. Therefore, calling for an old-school MMO is pointless, nobody, especially a AAA developer, is going to make one. Accept that and move on. Sitting around and whining "waaah, I want an old-school MMO" is about as pointless as complaining "waaah, I want a million dollars!" That's not constructive criticism, it's screaming at the sky demanding you get what you want. It's not going to happen. There comes a time when people need to realize there are no MMOs they want to play and instead of whining about it, they go find something else to do. Old-school is dead. It died for a reason. Accept it and move on.
What I wonder is who is really involved in the more futile activity, we who clamor for a return to old school mechanics or you who argue so vehemently against us?
We at least have a purpose, what's yours? (besides just enjoying some good old fashioned forum PVP which is pretty much why I'm here)
It's never going to stop, and I'm willing to bet one day we will see a developer create a game more to our liking, and it will be relatively successful as well.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Then those people are idiots. Paying for something that you don't want to do is stupid. Am I supposed to have any sympathy for these morons?
I don't.
It doesn't change anything though. People are paying for these games, the games are financially successful. Someone whining "waah, I don't have any fun!" doesn't change reality.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
So you're working for free? You get no paycheck? Because, you're just making games for fun, you don't want to make a profit out of it, right?
MMORPG.com is making plenty of profit, that's why all the ads are everywhere. If it wasn't, it wouldn't exist.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
It does if enough people wake up and realize that that logging in to pull the same lever over and over again isn't quite as fun as they had fooled themselves into believing.
I'm not saying MMOs aren't fun at all, simply that a lot of that 'fun' and 'sense of accomplishment' are inflated through clever design intended to keep us gamers contently running the exact same content countless times over. If you're still having fun pulling the same levers over and over again, then it's fine for you. For others who have realized that game design has devolved into this pathetic state of affairs, we'd like focus to move back to actual decent gameplay.
Yep, superstitiousness is dangerous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_astrology
Call it what you will, but it won't change that pretty much every marketing department around the world perscribes to these 'superstitions' to sell their products oh so effectively to people like yourself who are convinced that marketing has no influence on your consumer tendencies.
Two different things. Marketing does work and it is way cleaner than psychology.
Just because marketing works does not mean psychology work too.
Yeah, good luck on that. Virtually every industry does the same thing. Look at TV. Look at the movies. They keep remaking and redoing and copying everything that's already come out and people flock to the theaters. These industries are raking in money hand over fist. People can't wait to throw their money away. Smart people or dumb people, these people have money and that's all that matters.
Whether or not MMOs are fun for you is really irrelevant. Play it if you want. Otherwise don't. I just get sick of people spending all their time whining about it, like somehow they're entitled to get the perfect game. This is what MMOs are. Take it or leave it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Im positive majority play or dont play a game when it have alot of people or less people, game have fungameplay or boring gameplay, game have hardcore pvp or casual pvp.
People dont play games becouse it makes alot of money or less money, maybe they say this on forums but thats not case when they actually start playing game they look first if its fun and have enough players or other reasons but not money wise.
No, they play games because they enjoy them and as a consequence of lots of people enjoying playing the game, the game makes lots of money. Simple economics.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Except for the fact that the majority of marketing uses psychology as the backbone of it's theory and practice.
One question for you...
Why do you look at these forums and take part in discussions?
As futile as you claim complaining about the state of MMOs is, isn't it even more futile trying to argue against those doing it that they shouldn't?
ROFL, no...
There's a difference between discussing and complaining. There are lots of people here who do nothing but complain. MMOs are horrible! There's nothing good to play! They DESERVE a good MMO! They want to bitch and whine and moan about everything and most of them are complaining about the MMO they're playing, but suggest they just stop paying for something they don't even like and they jump down your throat. The heresy of suggesting there's something else on the planet to do but play a stupid online video game?!?!? THE HORROR!
How many threads are started with "MMOs suck! I deserve something better"? These are people who just don't comprehend the basic economics behind the game industry, but they're sure good at demanding games that would be entirely financially unfeasible, aren't they?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You all want to know about marketing? I'll tell you about marketing.
Once upon a time, there was this toothbrush salesman. And while every other toothbush salesman for this company was struggling with sales, this particular fellow was selling them with wild success.
So one day, the sales supervisor came to the office and met up with this super toothbrush salesman. "I'm going with you today", he said. "I want to see how you do it, so I can pass this along to our other salesmen."
"Fine" said the salesman. "Lets go."
So the Salesman takes his supervisor to the airport. They walk inside, and stand past the check-in lines on the way to the boarding areas. And as people walked by, the salesman opens up a box of brownies. He then stops someone and says "Hi, I have this box of brownies. I sell them for $69.95, so they must be good. Would you like to try one?" As the person accepts the brownie, he takes a bite out of it, and immediately spits it out onto the floor, and says with disgust "That tastes like SHAT!"
And the salesman whips out a toothbrush and says "It IS shat! Do you want to buy a toothbrush?"
Then he turns to his supervisor and says "I call that 'cash shop' sales. I create a demand after giving them shat."
That, my friends, is marketing.
Once upon a time....
... while it's a funny joke, it's a horrible example of marketing.
... but if that's how you think it works, I wish I had the opportunity to sell you things.
What you consider to be whining from some, is actual constructive criticism.
I'm one of the many that thinks MMOs these days are very lackluster. Do I demand that developers make an MMO closer to the oldschool model? No. Would I like one? Yes, and I've said on several occasions that I would. Your perception on the other hand, may view such criticism and request as whining and demanding.
There are countless discussions on these forums that talk about what individual players feel is the shortcomings of current MMOs. There are countless discussions of people stating how they miss certain game mechanics that were present in older games, but completely lacking in new games. In both such discussions, there is discussion from many different views about what players would like to see. The impression I get from your posts, is that any such discussion is futile, irrelevant, and nothing more than whining and demanding.
Feelings do not contribute to constructive discussion, imo... they are just subjective perception without reasoning and/arguments. With no arguments/reasoning, I do not see anything to discuss.
Take this thread or similar 'The industry needs more 'sandbox' games'. People come there and say that there is market for 'sandbox' games and basically all their 'reasoning' and 'arguments' are that 'sandboxes' way superior to 'themeparks'.
Such statements isn't based on arguments or any evidence nor they contain any reasoning. It is just subjective perception based on erroneously projected personal preference.
Constructive discussion starts with considering evidence and arguments which may lead to conclusion. This evidence and arguments, conclusion if it can be made, is something to discuss, subjective perception is not - you can only agree or not.
There is a point at which people simply have to accept the reality of the situation. MMOs today are solo-centric affairs. Why? That's what makes the most money. It's been proven over and over and over again. It's unlikely to change any time soon. Therefore, calling for an old-school MMO is pointless, nobody, especially a AAA developer, is going to make one. Accept that and move on. Sitting around and whining "waaah, I want an old-school MMO" is about as pointless as complaining "waaah, I want a million dollars!" That's not constructive criticism, it's screaming at the sky demanding you get what you want. It's not going to happen. There comes a time when people need to realize there are no MMOs they want to play and instead of whining about it, they go find something else to do. Old-school is dead. It died for a reason. Accept it and move on.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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What is "entirely financially unfeasible"?
I don't think anyone on these forums is qualified to make that determination.
Is an FFA PvP game "entirely financially unfeasible"?
A lot of people say that, but then EVE goes ahead and makes money anyway.
that's because a feature is not a game.
A game has 100's of features, and it's the combination of those features, how they are implemented, along with the lore, artwork, and the community that develops that determines financial feasibility.
Not just one feature.
Could a game that encourages grouping and is not solo friendly like WoW to the level cap be "financially feasible"?
Yes, I'm sure it could depending on the other 100's of features in teh game, how they were implemented, and the lore, artwork, and the community that developed around such a game.
Just like a game that is solo friendly could be entirely unfeasible financially, if the rest of the features suck, and so does the artwork, and the community.
Saying, games that encourage grouping are financially unfeasible, they will all fail because WoW is solo friendly! is just talking out of your ass.
You don't have any idea what feature in a game will make it unfeasible financially. You know what you like, and you're probably gonna call anything you don't like "financially unfeasible" but that's about it.
Your conclusion is that no one could use an "old school" feature, in a game in a way that is new and innovative.
That all games must be the same, if they have one particular feature in them, regardless of the other 100's of features they have, or the way those features are implemented.
I don't think that's correct.
And you are right, it isn't correct, also it isn't what the poster said...
This topic is going around in circles as fast as the Daytona 500. And it's beating a dead horse around every lap this thread takes. Like I said before none of who doesn't have industry experience can't truly tell. We we do is speculate.
/thread
I never said an old school feature, I said an old school MMO. Lots of people seem to be looking for UO with shiny new graphics and that kind of game simply will never fly again, no matter what it looks like. You can take a feature here and there and it might work. Trying to recreate the past, however, is doomed to failure.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Since when were the people who enjoyed oldschool MMOs asking for the same old games?
Rather than beat around the bush I'll answer that for you... they're not.
There are many gamers on these forums that enjoyed various aspects of oldschool MMOs, the culmination of which is what caused them to enjoy older MMOs more than the modern ones. What they are asking for instead, is a game similar to what the oldschool games perscribed to, not "UO with shiny new graphics".
You can claim that trying to recreate the past is doomed to failure. Well, ignoring the past is another path to failure. There are many decent gameplay concepts that were present in older MMOs that are completely void in new MMOs. Not because they were fundamentally flawed or unenjoyable, but because there is the perception of today's developers that these features aren't worthy of development resources. A lot of the discussion that goes on in these forums is, in some ways, an attempt to disprove that development attention to such features would in fact not be a waste as there are many people who are indeed interested in such.
What I wonder is who is really involved in the more futile activity, we who clamor for a return to old school mechanics or you who argue so vehemently against us?
We at least have a purpose, what's yours? (besides just enjoying some good old fashioned forum PVP which is pretty much why I'm here)
It's never going to stop, and I'm willing to bet one day we will see a developer create a game more to our liking, and it will be relatively successful as well.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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