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I am right because what you like would not be PROFITABLE!!!!!!!!!!
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
I see this a lot on here.
Some one will start a discussion about a feature they like in a game. Maybe it's a game that has an incentive for grouping, maybe it's an RvR game without instanced PvP, maybe it's FFA PvP, maybe it's a game with only player crafted items, or whatever.
And someone will disagree, and state why that's a bad game design. but they won't stick with that argument for very long. Pretty quickly they start with, well, that's a bad design because it will never be popular and a game company would lose money if they made it, so I'm right, and you're wrong!
The problem is, they use that argument when the debate is over the feature and whether or not it's fun, and not the profitability or business aspect of a game. And those are two different discussions.
1. Is something fun?
2. Will it make money?
But I see posts like this: That's not fun because.......................it won't make money! So I'm right!
Of course we can debate anything we like here. But I'd rather leave making money up to the developers and publishers, anbd discuss what I think would be fun, or not.
And anyway, I don't think most people know what makes money.
WoW makes money, so that's what makes money!
Well, a lot of WoW clones don't do that well.
FFA PvP can't make money, people don't like that!
Well, EVE seems to do ok.
You're just guessing whether or not something will make money, you don't really know.
But you do know, without a doubt, what you think is fun.
Comments
A ninja robot mmo would make money....
Where is it at???
The term "WoW Clone" should have been trade marked like "Driod". So that someone could have atleast gotten rich off of it...
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Maybe if it was done well a Ninja Robot MMO would make money. But you couldn't just make a..........................
Man, where were you, and people like you when I bring this up? I've read at least 10 posts just today that bring up this topic and I'm so glad to finally see other people getting sick of the "profitibility = fun" approach. I just wish I had some backup when I bring it up. instead I only get flamed from the 'business minded' crowd on how much I'm wrong for wanting games to be fun, engaging, and not shallow forms of money making schemes. It's sad really.
Anyways, posts like this bring me hope that maybe there are more people in the community who have standards on the games they play, and aren't simply shelling out cash to any developer who offers more gear and more dungeons than the last game...
Kudos, OP. x2
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Near any niche game can be profitable if it's done properly. Meaning the developer picks their niche for the game, makes it clear what it is to gamers at large, and sticks to that general niche concept. The major problem that most indie MMOs have is that they try to do too much, and cater to too many different groups, rather than going with a particular niche and executing it well. Or, they just plain do a piss poor job of developing a game that isn't plagued by technical and programming issues (server/client stability, bugs, exploits, etc).
The reason why we don't see more nice MMOs isn't because they wouldn't be profitable. The issue is that they wouldn't be profitable enough*.
*For business men who only care about making as much money as quickly as possible, with as little effort and cost as possible.
The problem with this idea is the fact that this argument is normally brought up when someone is criticizing a game or developer.
Profitability matters. Whining and crying like little girls because GW2 or SWTOR doesn't have Full Loot PvP (or any other lame-ass feature you want) is just stupid.
Games are made for profit, no other reason. If your amazing idea (yes, I'm being sarcastic) was really a good idea, an idea that would be "fun" for enough people, then it would be profitable. It you're idea wouldn't be profitable, it's just a bad idea.
In other words, be prepared for a lot more virtual skinner boxes.
In the gaming entertainment industry the two go hand in hand. If it's not fun to a majority of the people, it won't make money. So if the game is still making a profit, chances are that a majority of it's players enjoyed the features it had to offer.
"That's not fun because.................it won't make money!" Well we now know that games must be fun in order to make a good amount of money, so in a sense this statement could be true. Also if the game doesn't make money it would most likely go under because the minority of people that thought it was "fun" just wasn't enough to keep it going, guess they should have added those money making "un-fun" features.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
There is at the very least a casual relationship between what makes money and what is fun. The subtle point that is being communicated in profitability discussions is that a lot more people find that type of gameplay fun and therefore it is more profitable.
Niche games can make money especially in an environment where there is little competition, but by the very nature of being niche they aren't as fun for the majority.
@Madeux
Did you even read this thread? You literally just spewed the same crap we are talking about without any grounds.
On top of that, the "lame ass features" you speak of do quite well in games that were developed properly, with niche audience in mind, and not attempting to dethrone WoW.
You people who support developers thinking that "if it's not as profitible as wow, it's not a good idea, and therefor, not fun" are selfish, and delusional.
No game REQUIRES 10 million players for it to be considered successful. That's retarded and anti productive and the proof of that is all the crap games we have that fail because they tried too hard to make a quick buck with that approach.
but keep on supporting the business agenda. Sure, that's what we need.
As long as EVE online, DFO, and other smaller niche titles continue to be successful, there's really no arguement as to whether such features in a game could be profitible. CCP is doing JUST FINE without 10 million subs... better than fine.
As soon as other companies see this and stop trying to fast track themselves to the WoW-gravy-train, the sooner they'll realize that there's more than one single means of achieving success in a game title.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
I don't realy see that here.
What I see are two things.
1, I dont' like that feature.
This is perfectly acceptable. We are not going to all like the same things.
Then ...
2, that feature won't make money.
Now, what it seems that you are trying to do is say that everyone who doesn't like a feature is saying that the feature won't make momey because they dont' like it. and if their tastes border on the more popular then they are saying "most" people wont' like it.
but there are clearly two different points of view. Just because a person hates a feature doesn't mean they can't look at current trends and see that a certain feature might not make any money.
What I do see are people who like certian features that aren't popular and they insist that if done right they will make money.
Ok, that's a great theory. Or opinion. Now prove it.
But there is no actual proof other than the same old "all the people I know agree". Or "look at all the posts on mmorpg.com indicating the same thing therefore it has to be true."
Well, the "all the people I know" might hve some validity if you are pointing to a wide variety of people from different walks of life. It might be indicative of a trend. But usually what I see is someone saying "everyone from my guild left because of x" or "everyone on a certain site agrees therefore it's true".
but never does the person take into account that perhaps a certain site is skewed toward a certain demographic or trend or perhaps everyone in a certain guild automaticlaly shares the same ideaology. Probalby why they are in that guild in the first place.
So, if a person comes out and says "I don't like x and because I dont' like it I know it doesnt' make money" then I can see a point.
But if a person says "I dont' like x and beside me not liking it I don't believe it will make money becauase of y" then we have a valid argument".
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It's sad when someone actually has to spell this out. Are there that many people on this forum who have been developer-hatin' so long that they honestly envision meetings where the developers conciously decide to make the game less fun so that it will be more profitable?
This is one of the reasons that I wish that WoW had never existed: it has totally screwed up devs' and people's perception of what a successful and healthy MMO is.
Suddenly MMO's with population numbers that pre-WoW meant that they were doing well, after WoW it is suddenly a sign that they have "failed". I mean, seriously? If they have covered the development cost and make enough profit to cover the maintenance cost and earn a sizeable profit, MMO's with 100k+ subs are still a 'fail' when they don't reach up to millions of subs? What kind of thinking is that?
It's exactly that kind of thinking that makes MMO companies not dare to take risks more. Before WoW they just did their thing and were already content when they had a couple dozens of thousands of subs, but with the arrival of WoW MMO companies suddenly must aim for hundreds of thousands to millions of subs, no wonder with that kind of targets that devs become risk avoiding.
And (many) MMO gamers are no better, crying loudly that a game is 'fail' when it doesn't keep and hold 500k+ subs.
A real shame, it stifles taking risks to innovate or do things differently.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Irony is that it is them keeping this site going....
And what exactly would a non-skinner box MMO look like?
You perform an action, you get a reward. You keep getting the reward so eventually you'll be conditioned to perform that action even without getting a reward. Except in MMOs the rewards don't really end so the comparison kinda falls apart there, how many WoWers would keep on questing if quests didn't give rewards?
But let's ignore that for a moment. How would you remove the skinner box aspect? Remove all rewards? Give all actions rewards?
Just curious, what do you envision a non-skinner box MMO to look like?
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Resistance is futile.
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Ok let me just clear this up:
So you're saying that features that are in niche games are features that "most people" think suck.
Which, in turn, means that you think all the people not playing niche titles are "most people"
Which also means that you think "most people" play MMORPGs
take this for example... Before WoW came out, there was about 20 million less people in the world playing MMORPGs at all. So, you think Blizz said "most people want their characters to be non-unique and looking exactly alike after working for years on progression" or do you think that it was a design decision based on other aspects, that people just over looked for the other traits of the game that they actually liked? Think about this... think about the difference between "intentional design" and "incidental outcome"
Now, you're also saying that just because more people play game X than game Y, that game Y is stupid, and the features of game Y should never be implemented into another game? Really? So, you are totally happy with the current state of development trends? Because it's a direct result of this kind of thinking.
What game or games do you play right now, Madeux? Why do you play them? If/when you are ready to play something else, are you going to be satisfied that there will be no selection of tastes? just the same idea, regurgitated over and over and over and over and over?
My guess is, you are playing WoW, and are probably somewhat new, and not clearly seeing the gimick they've sold to you yet, so you are another one who believes that it's perfect and every other game that's not sporting the same features is 'fail'
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Lots of things are successful where the majority of the people on the planet believe them to suck. The majority aren't nearly always right. There's lots of room for niche markets.
No one is claiming that developers are looking for ways to make games less fun. The complaint is that lately, all developers have been so focused on getting a piece of WoW's successful market that they're too scared to look elsewhere. They're not willing to try new ideas in games just because they think they will be fun. They're only willing to use what they think has already worked elsewhere.
New innovative and fun ideas can be extremely profitable, even if they only appeal to niche markets.
Unfortunately, even when it's pointed out many people are either too stupid to see it, or too ignorant to admit to it.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Of course you have to care if it's profitable, else there wont' even be a game.
The thing to me is people kept whining about this and that, how games should be, and how developers should make games. If it's so easy go start your own company and make your own game, and I can laugh at it because 99% it going to fail.
And quite honestly those wow clone are making money. Alot of money. We got a trillion f2p wow clone in asia, and they keep making them because they do make money. Even if they only survive 2 years they still make alot of money.
All you have to do is make the gameplay fun enough that the experience itself is the reward. Lots of games have succeeded with this concept.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Can you name some?
'Niche' and majority...?
Maybe what we need is for people who create these threads to label the context. If it's aim with the idea of a professional game design it will imply the business interest (ie money: costs & profits). If it is just a mental workout, label it as such and make sure people know that professional aspects are not to be discussed. If it's random words dropping out of someone's mouth for the fun of it, well label it some kind timesink loser speech or something more PC.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Your opinion will not make money, so it's not fun!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Examples in the MMO industry itself have already been named. There are examples of niche products hated by the majority of the population that are successful in every industry on the planet. There are literally billions of examples of successful products that most people consider to "suck".
You want some more examples? Here's a couple big ones for you: Honda and Toyota cars in the US. There was a time when the vast majority of Americans thought their products sucked. Yet they were successful, because they filled what at the time was a niche market. And they became more and more successful. So successful in fact that in some categories they are now more successful in America than any American auto manufacturer.
If you want more examples go find them yourself; it's not difficult.
To be successful in a niche market you just have to keep production costs down. As long as the product makes more money than it costs to produce, it's successful. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Pretty much what I was going to post but with 100% less sarcasm. Great post, Sov!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I became disenfranchised with the modern MMO genre around the 2nd expansion of WoW. Yes, I've played MMO's since EQ release. Yes, I've given the smaller less played MMO a chance in the meantime. Yes, some have been able to make it on their own merit and nitche offerings. But I still have faith that some entitiy will be able shake some since into their investors and bring the WoW facade under control.
The modern MMO games are going to have hard times ahead if the genre continues this downward spiral of displeasure on content. But right now, boredom is still getting the sheeple to buy anything to pass the time that remotely offers something of interest. The MMO industry needs a culling of the heard and then, and only then, will we see the salvation for this market. For now, we the masses, have to sift through this crap chowder for something passable.
The gaming industry took blazing fast and with that it didn't really have to learn anything with the huge popularity it obtained. Kinda like a spoiled brat who is given everything they want growing up, it would be a real world learning process until they lose something significant. One can only hope it comes and comes soon.
ok that did make me lol.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo