Er yeah, that's what I said about 10 posts back on the first page, though I put the word "standard" in front of theme park MMO these days just for clairty.
Jinx
Lol.
Take comfort, I wasn't replying to you or even paying attention to your posts, I replied to the OP and the thread/topic in general. Your post just happened to have popped up right before mine when I'd finished my post
Sigh, I knew it, no one ever reads my posts.
LOL, yeah I know, just more ravings from the lunatic fringe. Have a good evening ....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes, the majority understands that it means copying core features from wow [which in turn copied them from other games and simplifying them.].
Is it politically correct.
The phrase makes no mention of gender, race, culture, age, etc. Seems fine to me.
On the intelectual part. It seems ridiculous using it as an argument. If used correctly it would act as a point of reference and not the argument itself.
For example, rift is a wow clone BECAUSE it copies features such as basic quests, crafting, etc. from wow.
Or.
rift is not innovative becuase itt copies stuff from wow.
Which is more inntelectual. The one that gives examples; Or the one that doesnt. Its not the phrase thats bad. Its the way you use it.
A) A clone is by definition a copy, an identical reprocution. Which, in case of MMOs, never is true. No game is a WOW clone, because the only WOW clone would be... WOW itself. So it is misleading and absurd.
So it is "similar in some aspects" to WOW. But into what pit of vagueness are we plunged here? How much similar makes "similar"? Just when it has radar? It when radar is round not squared? How many aspects does it need to qualify a WOW-similar? What aspects are important and which are arbitrary? Sorry, it just opens such a box of pandora: EVERYONE will understand something entirely different, and in the end the information given by the term is close to zero.
C) In most cases it is simply overstreched. It's like saying Claudia Schiffer is a clone of Madleine Albright, because both have boobs and some other similar features.
D) It is replacing one term by another. That method per se is no explanation at all. It's as if I explain someone who doesn't know the word "metaphor" by saying "it's like a simile".
E) Be precise. Critizise actualy features. Saying "I hate/love MMO X because it's a WOW clone" is something that says nothing, because it will say something completely different to everyone.
People using this phrase are either lazy or purposefully want to stir some emotions. I haven't seen a single serious and meanigful debate coming out of the usage of the term.
A)Need a hug,dude?
B)It's a wow clone when the game is extremely linear,has no sandbox features whatsoever,it's a quest grinder,the combat is the same old tab targeting 123 snorefest. The talent trees are a carbon copy of wow,and the endgame consist of grinding raids in instanced dungeons for your next epic lootz or instanced BG'S for lame instanced pvp.
C)Not true,the wow clone term fits perfectly for games like AoC,WAR,Lotro,Rift,SWKOTOR.
E) No,saying "i hate rift because it's a wow clone" is perfect,because it makes sense,i hate wow,and i also hate rift because it's a wow clone.
/signed. Don't fall for the trolls who know exactly what the term WOW clone means to about 99% of the readers of these forums but for some reason feel the need to split hairs over its "definition".
No. Actually I don't.
We have themepark and sandbox. In 99% of all occurances the term "wow clone" is just a synonyme for "theme park". While you may do this, why use an even more hollow term like Wow clone? You guys KNOW it will only aggravate people. And I bet any fortune, most people use it ONLY to cause trouble!
Sorry, but I find your arguments illogical.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Yes, the majority understands that it means copying core features from wow [which in turn copied them from other games and simplifying them.].
Is it politically correct.
The phrase makes no mention of gender, race, culture, age, etc. Seems fine to me.
On the intelectual part. It seems ridiculous using it as an argument. If used correctly it would act as a point of reference and not the argument itself.
For example, rift is a wow clone BECAUSE it copies features such as basic quests, crafting, etc. from wow.
Or.
rift is not innovative becuase itt copies stuff from wow.
Which is more inntelectual. The one that gives examples; Or the one that doesnt. Its not the phrase thats bad. Its the way you use it.
A) A clone is by definition a copy, an identical reprocution. Which, in case of MMOs, never is true. No game is a WOW clone, because the only WOW clone would be... WOW itself. So it is misleading and absurd.
So it is "similar in some aspects" to WOW. But into what pit of vagueness are we plunged here? How much similar makes "similar"? Just when it has radar? It when radar is round not squared? How many aspects does it need to qualify a WOW-similar? What aspects are important and which are arbitrary? Sorry, it just opens such a box of pandora: EVERYONE will understand something entirely different, and in the end the information given by the term is close to zero.
C) In most cases it is simply overstreched. It's like saying Claudia Schiffer is a clone of Madleine Albright, because both have boobs and some other similar features.
D) It is replacing one term by another. That method per se is no explanation at all. It's as if I explain someone who doesn't know the word "metaphor" by saying "it's like a simile".
E) Be precise. Critizise actualy features. Saying "I hate/love MMO X because it's a WOW clone" is something that says nothing, because it will say something completely different to everyone.
People using this phrase are either lazy or purposefully want to stir some emotions. I haven't seen a single serious and meanigful debate coming out of the usage of the term.
A)Need a hug,dude?
B)It's a wow clone when the game is extremely linear,has no sandbox features whatsoever,it's a quest grinder,the combat is the same old tab targeting 123 snorefest. The talent trees are a carbon copy of wow,and the endgame consist of grinding raids in instanced dungeons for your next epic lootz or instanced BG'S for lame instanced pvp.
C)Not true,the wow clone term fits perfectly for games like AoC,WAR,Lotro,Rift,SWKOTOR.
E) No,saying "i hate rift because it's a wow clone" is perfect,because it makes sense,i hate wow,and i also hate rift because it's a wow clone.
/signed. Don't fall for the trolls who know exactly what the term WOW clone means to about 99% of the readers of these forums but for some reason feel the need to split hairs over its "definition".
No. Actually I don't.
We have themepark and sandbox. In 99% of all occurances the term "wow clone" is just a synonyme for "theme park". While you may do this, why use an even more hollow term like Wow clone? You guys KNOW it will only aggravate people. And I bet any fortune, most people use it ONLY to cause trouble!
Sorry, but I find your arguments illogical.
NO,there are many themepark mmos that aren't wow clones.
And every time anyone says that, a thread explodes with 2000 (angry) posts debating whether or not it IS a WOW clone. Yeah, makes sense. =P
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Well WoW is a clone of EQ amd FFXI so can we call them EQ or FFXI clones instead ?
WoW and FFXI aren't even close. FFXI is also a lot harder to establish yourself in/make money in. The interface and combat system is very different. Healing is different, threat is more like old wow than modern and dps--before the game was dumbed down--used to be about cooperation with each other.
OP: "Wow clone" is short and to the point. It's also accurate because these games are copying WoW because it made so much money. Many of these devs may have never played another mmo, but they surely study the features and behavior of Warcraft. They're not copying the less successful guys before and since, they're copying the sucessful guy.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
"every 'WoW clone' MMO falls in the category of 'themepark MMO'"
But...DAoC,FFXI,L2 and Vanguard are themepark MMO's,not wow clones.
Lineage 2 and Rift aren't wow clones,Lineage 2 is a themepark mmo,and Rift is a wow clone.
See? it works.
Not really. Hardly anybody calls those themepark MMO's, as little as they call them WoW clones.
The whole term 'themepark MMO' became popular with WoW, since WoW is the MMORPG that with the way how WoW worked defined the design and typical gameplay elements that belongs to themepark MMO's, and that people associate with themepark MMO's. The core elements of WoW are the core elements of themepark MMO.
Even if WoW copied a lot of gameplay elements from EQ and some other MMO's, the difference in gameplay and design philosophy is the reason that people are hardly calling EQ a 'themepark MMO'.
Themepark MMO design started and became popular with WoW.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You can take the existing foundation and make it different while still staying true to the original concept.
XI is a good example of this. When you get down to it, it's an EQ clone in most aspects. But you can still see that the game has enough going on for it that it can stand out from EQ.
Its all about whether you care enough to make your game have an original spin while staying true to the age-old concepts.
You can take any recent FF game, online or offline, and figure out that in the concept, the progression system is closer to WoW than you'd think. But the presentation is original, and fresh, so it's hardly a clone.
Simply said, the game doesn't have to sport a "talent tree" to stay true to the concept of "talent tree". Even talent trees are much older than WoW, but again, Blizzard gave a new spin to the old concept. So much so that the old concept is being called "talent trees" nowadays. It's pretty brilliant.
So, simply said, you can take EQ, WoW, DAoC or even FFXI and build your own game off those concepts. You don't even have to use those games as your base, as everything they have done has been done before. Those games simply remade the old features with a twist to make them their own.
But most games nowadays don't bother to do that. There is no distinct difference between talent trees and the system these games sport. While there could be. It's not a feature of their own, it's a rip-off. You don't have to make something totally unique either, the presentation is what matters. And the lack of proper presentation is what makes these games fail. They don't try to make their games look and feel unique while not being really that unique in the end. They try to make their games look and feel like WoW instead.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
You don't have to make something totally unique either, the presentation is what matters. And the lack of proper presentation is what these games fail. They don't try to make their games look and feel unique while not being really that unique in the end. They try to make their games look and feel like WoW instead.
AoC didn't feel like WoW. It had a graphical look and atmosphere in theme that was leagues away from WoW. It had different presentation in its questing. Its melee combat felt significantly different from WoW. Its hybrid focus in classes felt different, as well as the shared talent trees. It had guildcities and sieges.
Still, (some) people call it a WoW clone.
This tells me that people are looking more to the similarities than the differences, and if they don't like it that another MMO shares some similarities in various features with WoW, then despite the differences that that MMO has as well, they'll still call that MMO a 'WoW clone'.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
AoC didn't feel like WoW. It had a graphical look and atmosphere in theme that was leagues away from WoW. It had different presentation in its questing. Its melee combat felt significantly different from WoW. Its hybrid focus in classes felt different, as well as the shared talent trees. It had guildcities and sieges.
Still, (some) people call it a WoW clone.
This tells me that people are looking more to the similarities than the differences, and if they don't like it that another MMO shares some similarities in various features with WoW, then despite the differences that that MMO has as well, they'll still call that MMO a 'WoW clone'.
You bring up a good example. I, also, did not find AoC to be that close to WoW. I think that, if the game had everything that was planned, it would have stood out on it's own, pretty much. But what was planned and what we actually got turned out very different in the end. The developers had the right idea, but perhaps what we actually received was still not enough to make it truly stand out.
It's hard to pinpoint the golden line between having enough differences and having less similarities that determine whether an MMO can be considered a clone by most. All I know is that it seems AoC did not quite meet that criteria, although it got close.
I also did not find EQ2 to be too similar to WoW, when I played it. You can see the similarities, but also that both games were made separately from each other. That's important.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Actually, it's a good term as far as I'm concerned.
If you were, say, a different band from the same genre (i.e. a different game from the same genre) then theyre'd be obvious differenes. But, on the other hand, if someone copied everything, everry song Pink Floyd did, but maybe added in snazzier sound effects and slightly different vocals in some verses, then you wouldn't be singing the praises of originality.
So, yes, WoW clone works. Once upon a time it didn't. Now..meh.
Thread ended on this first post as far as i'm concerned :P Well played.
Can we stop saying WoW clones and just start saying non-innovative MMORPGs or something? Seriously it's getting old. To me it's like saying every rock band copies Pink Floyd because they all use a guitar a bass guitar and some drums. Well every MMORPG uses a guitar a bass guitar and some drums for their band as well. However, their not WoW clones because despite the fact that they all use the MMORPG instruments none of them play the same melody.
That's how I feel if you have a legit reason to call every modern MMO a WoW clone please throw it my way because this concept still baffles me.
None of them play the same? What chu talk'in about? Take the theme away and skins for it and the base of the most MMO's out today are all the same bloody thing. Since wow each new MMO trying to get some of its pie has copied it trying to make the wow formula more dumb down to bring over the mindless lemmings of kids playing it like lab rats in a maze.
First, I have to let everyone know my background otherwise they'd think I'm ignorant.
To PC games I've been a gamer for a long time. Around 1989 I switched to PC gaming and I remember RPG games like Eye of the Beholder..etc and since then I've been hooked to RPGs so my preception is not biased and my awareness to games is big.
I played Aber MUD, I played Meridian 59, I played UO and I played EverQuest.
To me World of Warcraft is NOT an EverQuest clone or even CLOSE to it. To me World of Warcraft is even a DIFFERENT genre of EverQuest. While I admit that 90% of wow game mechanics are a copy of EverQuest they still only copied 10% of what EverQuest was so they cannot be an EverQuest clone and the game definitely doesn't play like EQ because WoW is Quest Driven, Hand Holding, Easy and Casual game while EverQuest had A LOT more freedom (can attack anything, can build faction with any race, and you are free to choose your adventure and never hand held).
HOWEVER, A game like RIFT is a freaking WoW CLONE!!!!! because..... it IS!!
It's not that Rift Quest Driven... everything now is Quest Driven even Single Player games. It's the very details of EVERYTHING. The way soul trees are designed is 100% WoWish. The way bags are controled is 100% WoWish!! (Press B, SAME BAG DESIGN!). The monster difficulty scaling is the same. The pet controls and abilities have that "auto" flash revolving thing (taken from WC3 and brought to Wow) is the same. The pets have Bite! dealing the SAME DAMAGE. The whole combat thing is 90% WoWish.
I'm not even going to talk about the Faction vs Faction, the Green, Blue, Purple itemization or the Auction House. However, what shocks me is the items themselves are designed EXACTLY like WoW! the damage, the font, the font color, the tool tip. Oh my God I've never seen a game that copies another game like Rift copied WoW.
Rift looks like WoW more than WoW looks like WoW after a patch. It's HILARIOUS!!
Popularity and negative portrayal from people who dislike the playstyle of the game and blame it for their lack of enjoyment with MMOs....compelling stuff.
Why do people get so angry over WoW, I believe that is tied in with the term, is it because its "ruining the mmo industry?"
Either way, the term is illogical in itself, in the entertainment industry the only way to survive is to market when the world is getting more and more impatient it does not cater to the long grind mmos anymore, people want instant gratification.
"I WANT MA SANDBOX!", then leave the themepark alone, why does it matter if themeparks build off eachother and progress, roller coasters were originally built with wood, all the way back in the 1700s in Russia originally. The first steel coaster was built in Disney, called "Disney's Matterhorn Bobsled Ride" in 1959, so according to your logic every other coaster was built as a "Matterhorn Bobsled Clone"?
I have seen all the arguments here "Its not the same because they copied everything about WoW and just added jazz to it", ok, well every roller coaster is initially the same and the main reason for turning it to metal was to add more twists, turns and thrills, hmmmmm seems like jazz to me......Building blocks are important, without them there would be no standard to build on, this is the MMO industry now, if this is not in your taste the door is right there. Either keep up with the times or get a degree and change the industry one game at a time.
Progression is in human nature, sure MMOs are adding single player elements, but the multiplayer elements are still there and always will be, but change must be taken in short strides, especially with an economy as we live in today...The industry is still a business and must factor in risks, change will come, but stop downing every game just because they are trying to build off the standards safely.
Games Waiting for: FF14, Tera Online, Blade and Soul, and Rift
The industry is still a business and must factor in risks, change will come, but stop downing every game just because they are trying to build off the standards safely.
The issue is not that there is no change.
The issue is that companies do not build off the standards to make a game of their own. That means doing the standard things differently. There is hardly a risk involved, at least compared to trying out something truly novel.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I think the problem isn't about just developers trying to emulate the success of WoW by copying their mechanics, but simply they don't show their own way of doing things, for example lets take the Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age franchise, they are both tapping into the fantasy rpg gamerbase, but one put emphasis on the openess of the world (Elder Scrolls) whereas Dragon Age is much more emphasised on the story of the hero.
We just don't see that in MMO
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
"every 'WoW clone' MMO falls in the category of 'themepark MMO'"
But...DAoC,FFXI,L2 and Vanguard are themepark MMO's,not wow clones.
Lineage 2 and Rift aren't wow clones,Lineage 2 is a themepark mmo,and Rift is a wow clone.
See? it works.
I agree with you here except that Lineage 2 is not a "themepark". Themepark and Sandbox are two extremes one focus on making the player follow a pre-defined linear experience (like theme park ride on rails) and sandbox is giving the players tools and sand and let them make their own fun. I hate both extremes. Lineage 2 was not a theme park.
Also, Themepark does not equal WoW clone. I agree with you here and whoever thinks WoW Clone = Themepark is a compelte ignorant. Because WoW clone is more about copying WoW's Major and Minor features and WoW is not ALL themeparks. Aion for instance is a Themepark but not a WoW clone because there are alot of core features of WoW that's not available in Aion. Unlike Rift which is a clear WoW clone and of course a themepark.
There are levels of extremes going both ways. I think WoW resides in the EXTREME thempark side while A Tale in the Desert or Second Life are an EXTREME sandbox. I Hate both worlds. The best MMORPG in my opinion is an MMORPG who takes the best of both worlds and combines them together to create that magic sandwich. EverQuest was the closest to achieve that magic because it wasn't set on rails yet it wasn't an empty world with nothing but sandbox tools.
The industry is still a business and must factor in risks, change will come, but stop downing every game just because they are trying to build off the standards safely.
The issue is not that there is no change.
The issue is that companies do not build off the standards to make a game of their own. That means doing the standard things differently. There is hardly a risk involved, at least compared to trying out something truly novel.
Honestly how could you justify saying that?, games try to incorporate their own dynamic content or else there truly would be no change, Rifts are dynamic, SWTOR's conversation system is dynamic, and I refuse to cover F2P models because most of them aren't worth covering.
When a game releases they ride on the familiarity that gamers possess and change minor things and ultimately add their own dynamic style. After the release they examine their earning/losses and plan proceeding content, lower risk at launch to create the game they truly want overall. That IS progression in itself, I would much rather have this than have a terrible launch. Rift as an example had an amazing launch that was ultimately polished to a suprising point. It clearly had dynamic content but of course did have familiar basics that WoW had and every other hugely succesfull game ran with.
If your taking a loan out for an amount of, I don't know for sake of argument 50,000,000(the rough cost of Rift to fully create it) would you invest in something that has a high risk of losing your money? or would you play it safe to start, create something you know will work, with your own look and "jazz" and then build upon it?
Sorry Robert Frost in America's business world "The Road Less Traveled By" doesn't always "Make all the difference"
Games Waiting for: FF14, Tera Online, Blade and Soul, and Rift
Honestly how could you justify saying that?, games try to incorporate their own dynamic content or else there truly would be no change, Rifts are dynamic, SWTOR's conversation system is dynamic, and I refuse to cover F2P models because most of them aren't worth covering.
Like I said, the issue is not that there is no change (like you said, there is some change, so that can't be the culprit), the issue is everything that does not change.
It's everything that these games do not change yet do not bother disguising either that makes them clones. Only what they do change can be considered something of their own, the rest is ultimately the same damn thing from game to another and for the record, there is more of the same mechanics than there are "changes" in these games. Thus that becomes the problem. It's not that everything should be done differently, it's that the traditional mechanics need to be done in a non-traditional way.
There is no risk involved because ultimately they are the same proven-to-work mechanics from decades ago.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Also, Themepark does not equal WoW clone. I agree with you here and whoever thinks WoW Clone = Themepark is a compelte ignorant. Because WoW clone is more about copying WoW's Major and Minor features and WoW is not ALL themeparks. Aion for instance is a Themepark but not a WoW clone because there are alot of core features of WoW that's not available in Aion. Unlike Rift which is a clear WoW clone and of course a themepark.
I think that peope who're saying that WoW clone =/= Themepark are the ones acting as complete ignorants. You don't have to look far on these forums to find enough people saying that Aion is a 'WoW clone' so who's right, eh? Those people or you? Bottomline is that peope mix the terms themepark MMO and WoW clone together as some other posters have already said, only they use the term 'WoW clone' when they dislike an MMO and want to mention and scorn its heritage.
There are levels of extremes going both ways. I think WoW resides in the EXTREME thempark side while A Tale in the Desert or Second Life are an EXTREME sandbox.
Second Life isn't an MMORPG, mate, it's a virtual world simulation.
I Hate both worlds. The best MMORPG in my opinion is an MMORPG who takes the best of both worlds and combines them together to create that magic sandwich. EverQuest was the closest to achieve that magic because it wasn't set on rails yet it wasn't an empty world with nothing but sandbox tools.
EQ was an oldschool MMO, it didn't have a lot of sandbox features if at all, and it didn't have a directed gameplay experience as themepark MMO's have. Progenitor or predecessor to the subgenres that arose, yes, but not part of both sandbox or themepark subgenre.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
EQ was an oldschool MMO, it didn't have a lot of sandbox features if at all, and it didn't have a directed gameplay experience as themepark MMO's have. Progenitor or predecessor to the subgenres that arose, yes, but not part of both sandbox or themepark subgenre.
What do you consider "a sandbox feature"?
IMO the less directed the game, the more sandboxy it is.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
IMO the less directed the game, the more sandboxy it is.
Heh yeah, it all isn't really clear cut and especially these definitions are a bit murky.
I see 'sandbox' and 'themepark' as subgenres or specialisations in MMO design philosophy, and personally, in contrast to how some other people might see it, I don't see the absence of features as proof of sandbox design: absence of certain content doesn't make an MMO automatically a sandbox MMO even if some MMO companies proclaim it like that. In my opinion, it's the freedom and flexibility in the features present that makes an MMORPG belong to the specialised subgenre 'sandbox'.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Popularity and negative portrayal from people who dislike the playstyle of the game and blame it for their lack of enjoyment with MMOs....compelling stuff.
Why do people get so angry over WoW, I believe that is tied in with the term, is it because its "ruining the mmo industry?"
I don't get angry over WoW. WoW is WoW. Some people like it. Some don't. I just wish that more games catered to the vast audience that doesn't really like WoW. The problem is that too many MMO developers simply try to make a game that mirrors WoW in almost every respect in hopes that the easy transition from WoW to their game will aid in getting them subscriber numbers. This usually works in the short term, but once the newness wears off, gamers realize that said games really aren't too different from WoW and when weighing playing this new game vs the time and effort they've already spent in WoW, most people go back to WoW. That's the reason why even incredibly solid MMOs like LotRO and Rift see a drastic drop in population after the first few months of release.
Either way, the term is illogical in itself, in the entertainment industry the only way to survive is to market when the world is getting more and more impatient it does not cater to the long grind mmos anymore, people want instant gratification.
This really has nothing to do with asking for an MMORPG that brings more to the table than it takes from other games. I realize that there's a vocal minority on these boards that can't seem to imagine a sandbox MMORPG or a themepark style game that takes from WoW's modern conveniences yet offers a unique gameplay experience, but like life, things aren't always so black and white. You can have a game that takes from WoW, but for all that's holy, please implement it in a way that's unique to your game.
"I WANT MA SANDBOX!", then leave the themepark alone, why does it matter if themeparks build off eachother and progress, roller coasters were originally built with wood, all the way back in the 1700s in Russia originally. The first steel coaster was built in Disney, called "Disney's Matterhorn Bobsled Ride" in 1959, so according to your logic every other coaster was built as a "Matterhorn Bobsled Clone"?
Not all sandboxes are alike, and not all themeparks are alike. Vindictus, DDO, Lineage II, Everquest, FFXIV, Anarchy Online, WoW, and DAoC are all games that you might consider a themepark, yet they are all very different products with little in common with one another outside of the fact that you kill things for experience points.
The problem is that I don't see such a distinction between WoW and Rift, LotRO, modern EQ2, etc. In fact, WoW has even surpassed many of the games that attempt to copy it in playability. Hence Rift having no guild bank, Rift having no dungeon finder at launch, EQ2 having no quest helper, and each game having absolutely mundane questing in comparison to WoW's innovative quests in Cataclysm. Rift is a huge offender. To illustrate, I just finished a quest kill quest for 40 mobs..
I have seen all the arguments here "Its not the same because they copied everything about WoW and just added jazz to it", ok, well every roller coaster is initially the same and the main reason for turning it to metal was to add more twists, turns and thrills, hmmmmm seems like jazz to me......Building blocks are important, without them there would be no standard to build on, this is the MMO industry now, if this is not in your taste the door is right there. Either keep up with the times or get a degree and change the industry one game at a time.
Video games aren't quite roller coasters, as I would argue that a week spent gaming is arguably more time that you'll ever see riding a roller coaster. You ride a roller coaster for 5 minutes, and you're done. MMORPGs require a time commitment and dedication, and one of the best ways to prevent boredom is to give players something they've never seen before. Sorry, but most new MMORPGs simply don't give players anything that hasn't been done 1000 times before, and players tire of them rather quickly.
EQ introduced the concept of progressing through levels by the party-based mob grind, and managed to retain a huge number of players via large numbers of timesinks that devoured gamers' social lives, then WoW comes along and totally redefines the genre by building on the foundation already set by Everquest. WoW popularizes the genre by making it acceptable to play while having social life, popularizes the quest grind, and makes soloing possible. Rift, EQ2, LotRO, Aion, WAR, and others all to varying degrees, are by no means building on the foundation laid by WoW, they're simply hopping on the cash-train bandwagon.
What I want to see is a game that doesn't take a checklist of features from WoW to implement but a game that captures the heart and soul of World of Warcraft while at the same time wrapping it around a game that has entirely new features and progresses the genre forward so that playing WoW will feel obsolete just as playing EQ feels today. Right now we see various attempts at refining the standard already set by WoW with developers adding a few new features here and there, but at the end of the day, once the shine wears off, I think gamers realize there's next to nothing new here.
Progression is in human nature, sure MMOs are adding single player elements, but the multiplayer elements are still there and always will be, but change must be taken in short strides, especially with an economy as we live in today...The industry is still a business and must factor in risks, change will come, but stop downing every game just because they are trying to build off the standards safely.
World of Warcraft revolutionized the MMORPG genre 5 years after Everquest was released. 7 years after WoW, we have a guildbankless WoW with randomly spawning public quests. I've said all I care to say.
Whenever the term wow clone is used, it's used as a derogatory term by people who don't like a themepark mmo or the whole themepark subgenre. They tend to ignore any difference and focus only of the similarities. Seems Kyleran is the only one willing to admit it's used as a derogatory term and not by people that are at least trying to be objective.
Ugh everytime I turn around on this forum WoW seems to be the main topic of everything good or bad because people either hate it or love it so the ones who hate it put down the ones who love and and it just keeps going back and forth back and forth and has been ever since Cataclysm and Rift came out.
Get over it guys. Ok so someone took ideas from WoW so what.... WoW took ideas from other games before games took ideas from WoW... I joined an MMO forum hoping for some diference in conversation to hear than to hear WoW get beaten down by people on forums just as bad as it does by people who play it. It all sounds like a lot of immaturity to me. Either you like WoW or you don't period there is no ZOMG they are cloning it. If that were the fact then you would have to say WoW cloned another game. Which one would that be? Oh wait I don't want to know because I don't care if I like it I like it if I don't I don't it's that simple. I don't like Wow since Cata came out for multiples of reasons and I am not going to repeat them again. But I didn't care for the free weekend of Rift either but no where in there did I see WoW being cloned if anything a lot of games were as you call it cloned into that one.
At this point if you are still having issues with either continuing WoW or quitting and can not make a decision maybe it is time to seek some outside help so you can decide one way or the other and not keep just bringing it up over and over. This is not healthy for anyone to keep reliving it and keeping it stirred up.
Personally I think it is time to stop saying WoW clones due to the unhealthy effect it is having on so many people mentally because no one can just let it lie which means they can not leave things in the past and move on. Things of the past are the past not present. Maybe all of this bickering is happening because a lot of people have a fear due to the fact that Cataclysm caused a lot of people to quit that WoW is going to die. I don't kow but man it is getting really old. I don't even want to log into the forum hardly because all I see in almost every thread is WoW this and WoW that.
So I think I will take a break until people can get over it and change the subject. Looks like it isn't going to end anytime soon several threads have asked for it to and all that does is stir up a bees nest and drags it on even longer maybe if we quit asking people to stop it will just die out.
Shrug. I think it's like saying 'n*gger' or 'white trash', sure, people know what you mean when you use it, but it doesn't mean that there isn't a negative aura attached to it, and prone to evoke heated debates.
Is there a term that can be used that roughly means the same?
Sure. Themepark MMO.
By definition it describes better, since 'clone' implies 'perfect copy' while in 95% of the cases there are a lot of differences. It'd be like saying 'Christina Aguilera is a clone of Britney Spears,' because they're both blond, have good tits and body and both sing. Or 'Vampire Diaries is a clone of Buffy the Vampire Slayer', because both shows have vampires as main occurring theme and they're directed to a teen audience.
So yes, themepark MMO is a better, more truthful term to use. It fits better for MMO's that fall into that subgenre and is more neutral.
Then again, just like 'n*gger' or 'ch*nk' or 'fag' is sometimes used instead of more neutral names, the same applies with 'WoW clone': it doesn't just describe things but also expresses scorn and disgust, and therefore 'WoW clone' is a more powerful term to use than 'themepark MMO', a term that suits people better who want to express their dislikes.
So according to you using the term WoW clone is just as ignorant as using racial slurs, I think your example may be a little strong, to say the least.
But it's just that, WoW clone is a sloppy term and I'm really just tired of hearing it. Every FPS can be considered a Call of Duty clone because of its similar elements. Every RTS can be called a Civilization clone because of it's similar elements. Take any game of any genre and call them all clones because of the genre specific similarities that must exist. However, doing so is just plain stupid and it baffles me when people try to justify it. I've yet to hear a good reason for calling any game a WoW clone.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Shrug. I think it's like saying 'n*gger' or 'white trash', sure, people know what you mean when you use it, but it doesn't mean that there isn't a negative aura attached to it, and prone to evoke heated debates.
Seriously, the only derogatory inference anyone is finding is, like I've already stated, purely internal. If it bothers you, ask yourself why you're letting individuals who you're never going to meet influence how you feel about something (on the internet)? Why is something so trivial and pointless being discussed so often?
I can tell you that it's for one good reason, and that's because people take personal offence when they believe something they cherish is being down-played, or ridiculed. "WoW Clone" is a term you can make as neutral or as emotionally loaded as you allow yourself, and as I've mentioned before, it has nothing to do with the people using the term or how they mean to use it, even if they do intend for its use to be derogatory, but rather the meaning or inference you yourself are placing upon the vernacular.
Using WoW clone is the best reference point for the most players within the market space, and I'd hope that when I used the term to describe a game to a friend, which I do often, they're not going to throw their arms up in a hussy because I may have accidentally offended their delicate sensabilities, but rather understand that I was trying to reference my experience to one that they were familiar with.
Originally posted by i00x00i
Take any game of any genre and call them all clones because of the genre specific similarities that must exist. However, doing so is just plain stupid and it baffles me when people try to justify it. I've yet to hear a good reason for calling any game a WoW clone.
I'm not sure what's so stupid about trying to connect with another individual, and explain something that they may not otherwise understand by using vocabulary that will produce, in effect, a better comprehension of a product or experience. No, I get it, to make sure we're fair to everyone's sensabilities and everyone's offenses, lets all take perfect care every time we're describing a new WoW-familiar MMO to a buddy or a friend, or talk about it on the internet, we need to make sure they know that it's really an EQ clone, then a DAoC clone, and then a whatever clone, because WoW didn't do it first. WHO CARES?!
The term is as much of a slight as you make it, and it isn't at all "stupid" or "idiotic" to find an easier point of reference for discussion or debate. There have been ample amounts of good reasoning mentioned within this thread itself.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Comments
Sigh, I knew it, no one ever reads my posts.
LOL, yeah I know, just more ravings from the lunatic fringe. Have a good evening ....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No. Actually I don't.
We have themepark and sandbox. In 99% of all occurances the term "wow clone" is just a synonyme for "theme park". While you may do this, why use an even more hollow term like Wow clone? You guys KNOW it will only aggravate people. And I bet any fortune, most people use it ONLY to cause trouble!
Sorry, but I find your arguments illogical.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
And every time anyone says that, a thread explodes with 2000 (angry) posts debating whether or not it IS a WOW clone. Yeah, makes sense. =P
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
WoW and FFXI aren't even close. FFXI is also a lot harder to establish yourself in/make money in. The interface and combat system is very different. Healing is different, threat is more like old wow than modern and dps--before the game was dumbed down--used to be about cooperation with each other.
OP: "Wow clone" is short and to the point. It's also accurate because these games are copying WoW because it made so much money. Many of these devs may have never played another mmo, but they surely study the features and behavior of Warcraft. They're not copying the less successful guys before and since, they're copying the sucessful guy.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Not really. Hardly anybody calls those themepark MMO's, as little as they call them WoW clones.
The whole term 'themepark MMO' became popular with WoW, since WoW is the MMORPG that with the way how WoW worked defined the design and typical gameplay elements that belongs to themepark MMO's, and that people associate with themepark MMO's. The core elements of WoW are the core elements of themepark MMO.
Even if WoW copied a lot of gameplay elements from EQ and some other MMO's, the difference in gameplay and design philosophy is the reason that people are hardly calling EQ a 'themepark MMO'.
Themepark MMO design started and became popular with WoW.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You can take the existing foundation and make it different while still staying true to the original concept.
XI is a good example of this. When you get down to it, it's an EQ clone in most aspects. But you can still see that the game has enough going on for it that it can stand out from EQ.
Its all about whether you care enough to make your game have an original spin while staying true to the age-old concepts.
You can take any recent FF game, online or offline, and figure out that in the concept, the progression system is closer to WoW than you'd think. But the presentation is original, and fresh, so it's hardly a clone.
Simply said, the game doesn't have to sport a "talent tree" to stay true to the concept of "talent tree". Even talent trees are much older than WoW, but again, Blizzard gave a new spin to the old concept. So much so that the old concept is being called "talent trees" nowadays. It's pretty brilliant.
So, simply said, you can take EQ, WoW, DAoC or even FFXI and build your own game off those concepts. You don't even have to use those games as your base, as everything they have done has been done before. Those games simply remade the old features with a twist to make them their own.
But most games nowadays don't bother to do that. There is no distinct difference between talent trees and the system these games sport. While there could be. It's not a feature of their own, it's a rip-off. You don't have to make something totally unique either, the presentation is what matters. And the lack of proper presentation is what makes these games fail. They don't try to make their games look and feel unique while not being really that unique in the end. They try to make their games look and feel like WoW instead.
AoC didn't feel like WoW. It had a graphical look and atmosphere in theme that was leagues away from WoW. It had different presentation in its questing. Its melee combat felt significantly different from WoW. Its hybrid focus in classes felt different, as well as the shared talent trees. It had guildcities and sieges.
Still, (some) people call it a WoW clone.
This tells me that people are looking more to the similarities than the differences, and if they don't like it that another MMO shares some similarities in various features with WoW, then despite the differences that that MMO has as well, they'll still call that MMO a 'WoW clone'.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You bring up a good example. I, also, did not find AoC to be that close to WoW. I think that, if the game had everything that was planned, it would have stood out on it's own, pretty much. But what was planned and what we actually got turned out very different in the end. The developers had the right idea, but perhaps what we actually received was still not enough to make it truly stand out.
It's hard to pinpoint the golden line between having enough differences and having less similarities that determine whether an MMO can be considered a clone by most. All I know is that it seems AoC did not quite meet that criteria, although it got close.
I also did not find EQ2 to be too similar to WoW, when I played it. You can see the similarities, but also that both games were made separately from each other. That's important.
Thread ended on this first post as far as i'm concerned :P Well played.
None of them play the same? What chu talk'in about? Take the theme away and skins for it and the base of the most MMO's out today are all the same bloody thing. Since wow each new MMO trying to get some of its pie has copied it trying to make the wow formula more dumb down to bring over the mindless lemmings of kids playing it like lab rats in a maze.
The OP must understand one thing about something.
First, I have to let everyone know my background otherwise they'd think I'm ignorant.
To PC games I've been a gamer for a long time. Around 1989 I switched to PC gaming and I remember RPG games like Eye of the Beholder..etc and since then I've been hooked to RPGs so my preception is not biased and my awareness to games is big.
I played Aber MUD, I played Meridian 59, I played UO and I played EverQuest.
To me World of Warcraft is NOT an EverQuest clone or even CLOSE to it. To me World of Warcraft is even a DIFFERENT genre of EverQuest. While I admit that 90% of wow game mechanics are a copy of EverQuest they still only copied 10% of what EverQuest was so they cannot be an EverQuest clone and the game definitely doesn't play like EQ because WoW is Quest Driven, Hand Holding, Easy and Casual game while EverQuest had A LOT more freedom (can attack anything, can build faction with any race, and you are free to choose your adventure and never hand held).
HOWEVER, A game like RIFT is a freaking WoW CLONE!!!!! because..... it IS!!
It's not that Rift Quest Driven... everything now is Quest Driven even Single Player games. It's the very details of EVERYTHING. The way soul trees are designed is 100% WoWish. The way bags are controled is 100% WoWish!! (Press B, SAME BAG DESIGN!). The monster difficulty scaling is the same. The pet controls and abilities have that "auto" flash revolving thing (taken from WC3 and brought to Wow) is the same. The pets have Bite! dealing the SAME DAMAGE. The whole combat thing is 90% WoWish.
I'm not even going to talk about the Faction vs Faction, the Green, Blue, Purple itemization or the Auction House. However, what shocks me is the items themselves are designed EXACTLY like WoW! the damage, the font, the font color, the tool tip. Oh my God I've never seen a game that copies another game like Rift copied WoW.
Rift looks like WoW more than WoW looks like WoW after a patch. It's HILARIOUS!!
Lets see here......WoW clone....interesting......
Popularity and negative portrayal from people who dislike the playstyle of the game and blame it for their lack of enjoyment with MMOs....compelling stuff.
Why do people get so angry over WoW, I believe that is tied in with the term, is it because its "ruining the mmo industry?"
Either way, the term is illogical in itself, in the entertainment industry the only way to survive is to market when the world is getting more and more impatient it does not cater to the long grind mmos anymore, people want instant gratification.
"I WANT MA SANDBOX!", then leave the themepark alone, why does it matter if themeparks build off eachother and progress, roller coasters were originally built with wood, all the way back in the 1700s in Russia originally. The first steel coaster was built in Disney, called "Disney's Matterhorn Bobsled Ride" in 1959, so according to your logic every other coaster was built as a "Matterhorn Bobsled Clone"?
I have seen all the arguments here "Its not the same because they copied everything about WoW and just added jazz to it", ok, well every roller coaster is initially the same and the main reason for turning it to metal was to add more twists, turns and thrills, hmmmmm seems like jazz to me......Building blocks are important, without them there would be no standard to build on, this is the MMO industry now, if this is not in your taste the door is right there. Either keep up with the times or get a degree and change the industry one game at a time.
Progression is in human nature, sure MMOs are adding single player elements, but the multiplayer elements are still there and always will be, but change must be taken in short strides, especially with an economy as we live in today...The industry is still a business and must factor in risks, change will come, but stop downing every game just because they are trying to build off the standards safely.
Games Waiting for: FF14, Tera Online, Blade and Soul, and Rift
The issue is not that there is no change.
The issue is that companies do not build off the standards to make a game of their own. That means doing the standard things differently. There is hardly a risk involved, at least compared to trying out something truly novel.
another WoW clone thread.. facepalm
I think the problem isn't about just developers trying to emulate the success of WoW by copying their mechanics, but simply they don't show their own way of doing things, for example lets take the Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age franchise, they are both tapping into the fantasy rpg gamerbase, but one put emphasis on the openess of the world (Elder Scrolls) whereas Dragon Age is much more emphasised on the story of the hero.
We just don't see that in MMO
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I agree with you here except that Lineage 2 is not a "themepark". Themepark and Sandbox are two extremes one focus on making the player follow a pre-defined linear experience (like theme park ride on rails) and sandbox is giving the players tools and sand and let them make their own fun. I hate both extremes. Lineage 2 was not a theme park.
Also, Themepark does not equal WoW clone. I agree with you here and whoever thinks WoW Clone = Themepark is a compelte ignorant. Because WoW clone is more about copying WoW's Major and Minor features and WoW is not ALL themeparks. Aion for instance is a Themepark but not a WoW clone because there are alot of core features of WoW that's not available in Aion. Unlike Rift which is a clear WoW clone and of course a themepark.
There are levels of extremes going both ways. I think WoW resides in the EXTREME thempark side while A Tale in the Desert or Second Life are an EXTREME sandbox. I Hate both worlds. The best MMORPG in my opinion is an MMORPG who takes the best of both worlds and combines them together to create that magic sandwich. EverQuest was the closest to achieve that magic because it wasn't set on rails yet it wasn't an empty world with nothing but sandbox tools.
Honestly how could you justify saying that?, games try to incorporate their own dynamic content or else there truly would be no change, Rifts are dynamic, SWTOR's conversation system is dynamic, and I refuse to cover F2P models because most of them aren't worth covering.
When a game releases they ride on the familiarity that gamers possess and change minor things and ultimately add their own dynamic style. After the release they examine their earning/losses and plan proceeding content, lower risk at launch to create the game they truly want overall. That IS progression in itself, I would much rather have this than have a terrible launch. Rift as an example had an amazing launch that was ultimately polished to a suprising point. It clearly had dynamic content but of course did have familiar basics that WoW had and every other hugely succesfull game ran with.
If your taking a loan out for an amount of, I don't know for sake of argument 50,000,000(the rough cost of Rift to fully create it) would you invest in something that has a high risk of losing your money? or would you play it safe to start, create something you know will work, with your own look and "jazz" and then build upon it?
Sorry Robert Frost in America's business world "The Road Less Traveled By" doesn't always "Make all the difference"
Games Waiting for: FF14, Tera Online, Blade and Soul, and Rift
Like I said, the issue is not that there is no change (like you said, there is some change, so that can't be the culprit), the issue is everything that does not change.
It's everything that these games do not change yet do not bother disguising either that makes them clones. Only what they do change can be considered something of their own, the rest is ultimately the same damn thing from game to another and for the record, there is more of the same mechanics than there are "changes" in these games. Thus that becomes the problem. It's not that everything should be done differently, it's that the traditional mechanics need to be done in a non-traditional way.
There is no risk involved because ultimately they are the same proven-to-work mechanics from decades ago.
EQ was an oldschool MMO, it didn't have a lot of sandbox features if at all, and it didn't have a directed gameplay experience as themepark MMO's have. Progenitor or predecessor to the subgenres that arose, yes, but not part of both sandbox or themepark subgenre.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What do you consider "a sandbox feature"?
IMO the less directed the game, the more sandboxy it is.
Heh yeah, it all isn't really clear cut and especially these definitions are a bit murky.
I see 'sandbox' and 'themepark' as subgenres or specialisations in MMO design philosophy, and personally, in contrast to how some other people might see it, I don't see the absence of features as proof of sandbox design: absence of certain content doesn't make an MMO automatically a sandbox MMO even if some MMO companies proclaim it like that. In my opinion, it's the freedom and flexibility in the features present that makes an MMORPG belong to the specialised subgenre 'sandbox'.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Whenever the term wow clone is used, it's used as a derogatory term by people who don't like a themepark mmo or the whole themepark subgenre. They tend to ignore any difference and focus only of the similarities. Seems Kyleran is the only one willing to admit it's used as a derogatory term and not by people that are at least trying to be objective.
Ugh everytime I turn around on this forum WoW seems to be the main topic of everything good or bad because people either hate it or love it so the ones who hate it put down the ones who love and and it just keeps going back and forth back and forth and has been ever since Cataclysm and Rift came out.
Get over it guys. Ok so someone took ideas from WoW so what.... WoW took ideas from other games before games took ideas from WoW... I joined an MMO forum hoping for some diference in conversation to hear than to hear WoW get beaten down by people on forums just as bad as it does by people who play it. It all sounds like a lot of immaturity to me. Either you like WoW or you don't period there is no ZOMG they are cloning it. If that were the fact then you would have to say WoW cloned another game. Which one would that be? Oh wait I don't want to know because I don't care if I like it I like it if I don't I don't it's that simple. I don't like Wow since Cata came out for multiples of reasons and I am not going to repeat them again. But I didn't care for the free weekend of Rift either but no where in there did I see WoW being cloned if anything a lot of games were as you call it cloned into that one.
At this point if you are still having issues with either continuing WoW or quitting and can not make a decision maybe it is time to seek some outside help so you can decide one way or the other and not keep just bringing it up over and over. This is not healthy for anyone to keep reliving it and keeping it stirred up.
Personally I think it is time to stop saying WoW clones due to the unhealthy effect it is having on so many people mentally because no one can just let it lie which means they can not leave things in the past and move on. Things of the past are the past not present. Maybe all of this bickering is happening because a lot of people have a fear due to the fact that Cataclysm caused a lot of people to quit that WoW is going to die. I don't kow but man it is getting really old. I don't even want to log into the forum hardly because all I see in almost every thread is WoW this and WoW that.
So I think I will take a break until people can get over it and change the subject. Looks like it isn't going to end anytime soon several threads have asked for it to and all that does is stir up a bees nest and drags it on even longer maybe if we quit asking people to stop it will just die out.
So according to you using the term WoW clone is just as ignorant as using racial slurs, I think your example may be a little strong, to say the least.
But it's just that, WoW clone is a sloppy term and I'm really just tired of hearing it. Every FPS can be considered a Call of Duty clone because of its similar elements. Every RTS can be called a Civilization clone because of it's similar elements. Take any game of any genre and call them all clones because of the genre specific similarities that must exist. However, doing so is just plain stupid and it baffles me when people try to justify it. I've yet to hear a good reason for calling any game a WoW clone.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Seriously, the only derogatory inference anyone is finding is, like I've already stated, purely internal. If it bothers you, ask yourself why you're letting individuals who you're never going to meet influence how you feel about something (on the internet)? Why is something so trivial and pointless being discussed so often?
I can tell you that it's for one good reason, and that's because people take personal offence when they believe something they cherish is being down-played, or ridiculed. "WoW Clone" is a term you can make as neutral or as emotionally loaded as you allow yourself, and as I've mentioned before, it has nothing to do with the people using the term or how they mean to use it, even if they do intend for its use to be derogatory, but rather the meaning or inference you yourself are placing upon the vernacular.
Using WoW clone is the best reference point for the most players within the market space, and I'd hope that when I used the term to describe a game to a friend, which I do often, they're not going to throw their arms up in a hussy because I may have accidentally offended their delicate sensabilities, but rather understand that I was trying to reference my experience to one that they were familiar with.
I'm not sure what's so stupid about trying to connect with another individual, and explain something that they may not otherwise understand by using vocabulary that will produce, in effect, a better comprehension of a product or experience. No, I get it, to make sure we're fair to everyone's sensabilities and everyone's offenses, lets all take perfect care every time we're describing a new WoW-familiar MMO to a buddy or a friend, or talk about it on the internet, we need to make sure they know that it's really an EQ clone, then a DAoC clone, and then a whatever clone, because WoW didn't do it first. WHO CARES?!
The term is as much of a slight as you make it, and it isn't at all "stupid" or "idiotic" to find an easier point of reference for discussion or debate. There have been ample amounts of good reasoning mentioned within this thread itself.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)