Territorial warfare is a more sophisticated form of PvP but is this what you all mean by generating new content? PVP? Cause a lot of games have PvP in them but I don't see this as a stream of "new content". It is unsatisfactory to me.
I haven't seen a single convincing sandbox argument which has been applied to practice and is more than some PvP preaching... As far as I have seen EvE doesn't offer much in the PvE department which is not developer generated. Trading doesn't cut it. Why should this idea of a sandbox game appeal to PvE players? Can someone give me an example of how a sandbox MMO will benefit me in any way if I am a PvE player and can't bothered with PvP?
If someone only or foremostly loves themepark style of MMO's, then I don't see why any sandbox feature would please or benefit you.
But speaking in general, I think that UO and SWG showed enough PvE content and options that the players of those games liked, features and mechanics that offered more freedom and flexibility than those features as seen in themepark oriented gameplay, if they were present in those MMO's at all.
A player driven economy in MMO's like UO, SWG and EVE that went a lot deeper than in other MMO's, where crafting wasn't just tacked on or rudimentary, where crafters had a career path and profession that offered as much variety and full time entertainment for those who opted it as pvp and raiding could give for others. Player made cities that as hubs were as meaningful, lively and useful as any dev provided NPC populated town or city. Player made buildings and complexes that were as interesting and challenging as dev created dungeons or haunting houses could be.
As a case of player generated content that isn't a sandbox feature, the Foundry of STO, where quests and storylines are created that are more interesting and varied than most of the quests that are created by devs.
Another good example is Xsyon, where you can terraform the environment, creating things like for example a moat around your tribe's settlement as defense, or create a hill to build your city on.
Sure, some of these features can be found in themepark MMO's as well, but often in a more rudimentary form; in sandbox MMO's these same features often typically have more depth, flexibility and a wider range of possibilities and things to do with them than you can see in non-sandbox MMO's, with the effect that the result of these features play a larger role in the gameplay and offer more entertainment value.
Content created by other players, that contributes value and entertaining gameplay to other players as equal and sometimes better than what the devs could provide. Which is what my OP was about.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I haven't seen a single convincing sandbox argument which has been applied to practice and is more than some PvP preaching... As far as I have seen EvE doesn't offer much in the PvE department which is not developer generated. Trading doesn't cut it. Why should this idea of a sandbox game appeal to PvE players? Can someone give me an example of how a sandbox MMO will benefit me in any way if I am a PvE player and can't bothered with PvP?
Sandboxes don't have to include PvP. That's just one gameplay tool among many that can be given to sandbox players.
A sandbox is interesting to any player, PvE or otherwise, because sandboxes have emergent gameplay. Sandboxes consist of a game environment with a bunch of tools for players to fiddle with. Players are expected to come up with interesting combinations of those tools. If the developers picked a good set of tools, then the gameplay that will emerge will be enjoyable. If the developers put in the wrong combination of tools, mayhem can result.
Theme parks are given that appellation because they don't provide tools for creating rides but rather come with rides preassembled. "Do these six things in sequence and something good will happen." That's restrictive to a PvE player because there is no emergent gameplay. The game will always have that one ride with six steps and it will never change. A sandbox would take that ride apart and let the players combine the six steps any way they wanted. Some will produce desirable results while others will produce disaster. It all depends on the motivation of the involved player.
So the net result is that a sandbox is interesting to any player because emergent gameplay produces more varied interactions for players. You'll have more options, and the players will be more motivated to pursue their options because whatever they choose will be theirs.
The only people who don't care about sandboxes are those who have found a game that does exactly what they're after. So a player who wants to kill monsters, gain levels and gear up can play World of Warcraft. That's perfectly legitimate. It's a ride that they enjoy and they don't need it to change.
People say they want sandbox but they always choose theme park.
Sandbox can be too much work. When I log into a game I want a game....not work. I play to escape life and work.
Too much sandbox (and inherently realism) is not fun. Lets take an example. I want to craft a weapon. This weapon can be crafted with many different types of wood and the type I want only grows during a particular season. I have to wait for this wood or look for another type. I choose to craft it with a broom handle instead of grown wood. The broom handle is brittle so I have to make sealant or glue to strengthen the wood. The glue is created by mixing two components. I decide to skip both and use a magical compound. The compound is created by loot that drops from a mob that spawns at night in a remote corner of the forest. See how this can go on and on and on? Too much headache, too much work, too much sandbox.
The best solution is a compromise between sandbox and theme park. I have not seen a game reach that ideal yet.
I can't realistically see this being true. Sandbox in the 'true' sense of the word lacks too much direction. Most players will always need some sort of direction to enjoy a game. When you give people too many choices they tend to have trouble enjoying that freedom. There needs to be a balance between open content and direction for a game to succeed. It would be nice to see more games with player driven content (this doesn't necessarily make it a sandbox, though), however it's rare to see a game that can do that correctly.
I feel that its not the recent sandboxes [mo, df, etc] that are the problem. Its the resources and thought that are going into them. A well designed sandbox would eb balanced enough that it allows ffa pvp while not killing off other playstyles. Maybe using an eve-like security rating system.
A well designed sandbox with a goof "backbone" community would easily releive the workload nessesary. Looking for a rare resource. buy it. Need a sword, find a crafter and have it made. But it would still require a good community to keep it working.
Its also very easy to add "rides" to a sandbox. Want to go on a quest grind. Join the mages or mercenaries [npc] guild and do the quests attached.
sandbox is the future. As long as they're well though out sandboxes. Not underfunded pvp fests with a non existant economy and a ten year grind. [darkfall]
People say they want sandbox but they always choose theme park.
Sandbox can be too much work. When I log into a game I want a game....not work. I play to escape life and work.
The best solution is a compromise between sandbox and theme park. I have not seen a game reach that ideal yet.
Originally posted by aesperus
I can't realistically see this being true. Sandbox in the 'true' sense of the word lacks too much direction. Most players will always need some sort of direction to enjoy a game. When you give people too many choices they tend to have trouble enjoying that freedom. There needs to be a balance between open content and direction for a game to succeed. It would be nice to see more games with player driven content (this doesn't necessarily make it a sandbox, though), however it's rare to see a game that can do that correctly.
Note that I said sandbox features, not sandbox MMO.
I agree that a mix is the best, MMO's that are a mix of themepark and sandbox features, offering the directed gameplay for those players who need it, but also offering the flexibility and freedom in features to enable emergent gameplay, a community that by investing their time in those player tools and content help create a richer world that's a mix of dev provided content and community generated content.
So far it looks like ArcheAge is the only MMO that's going fully into that direction.
Although EVE seems to cater more towards different kinds of gameplay as well, if I look at what Incarna and Dust514 has to offer.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have a very big problem with sandbox type of MMOs. I want game to entertain me (and as quickly as possible), not running around trying to entertain myself somehow. All that "bunch of tools for players to fiddle with" sound good on paper, but not that good in reality. Actually i like the idea too, but always get an awful experience when i try some sandbox game.
Well, let's take my experience with EVE. First of all i don't like PvP too much, so I decided to try some PvE activity first. I started as... well, you can guess it - high sec miner. Do i need to tell you how boring this type of activity is? Just target a new asteroid in 180/360 seconds and activate you strip miners. That is ultimate boredom! So i tried some trading. Well, that was fun for a start. But after some time i found myself doing same things over and over again. And all the money i get, well, i couldn't find a way to use it! Got myself some implants, skill books i needed. But for a new transport ship i need skills that would be learning for the next few months...just because there is a huge gap between industrial ships and freighters. So i tried missions. That was even more boring than mining actually. You have to do some stupid repetitive missions over and over again just to get enough standing for next level agent in order to get harder (with better rewards) missions and repeat that stand grinding again. Even WoW daily quests grinding feels like fun after that. So I finally tried PvP with some academy corp. And that was a lot of fun. The best PvP experience in MMORPG I may say. But you can't just log in when you can and hop on some action. Most corps require you to follow some schedule, take part in KTAs or you'll be kicked out. And i can't effort that. In smaller corps you don't have to do it, but you have to organize ppl yourself for some activity. I'm not that great in organizing dudes so i quit EVE.
I don't want to say something bad about EVE. I still like the idea, I like to read some battle reports, but there is no way i'll going to try it ever again. So with most sandbox games i tried: you get more fun reading about it than playing it. And mostly it's a huge time sinkhole. So I think I'm more about themepark MMORPGs like WoW or just some multiplayer games like Team Fortress, Battlefield or SC2. They are a way more casual player friendly.
Sandbox can be too much work. When I log into a game I want a game....not work. I play to escape life and work.
Too much sandbox (and inherently realism) is not fun. Lets take an example. I want to craft a weapon. This weapon can be crafted with many different types of wood and the type I want only grows during a particular season. I have to wait for this wood or look for another type. I choose to craft it with a broom handle instead of grown wood. The broom handle is brittle so I have to make sealant or glue to strengthen the wood. The glue is created by mixing two components. I decide to skip both and use a magical compound. The compound is created by loot that drops from a mob that spawns at night in a remote corner of the forest. See how this can go on and on and on? Too much headache, too much work, too much sandbox.
The best solution is a compromise between sandbox and theme park. I have not seen a game reach that ideal yet.
Sandbox in no way implies realism. They are orthogonal considerations.
A sandbox design focuses on providing tools that players employ in a variety of ways to pursue their own goals. Patterning after reality is one way to package everything up, but there's no reason that completely unrealistic tools and patterns cannot be implemented. For example, a sandbox doesn't have to require realistic travel times. Teleportation isn't realistic, but it's perfectly acceptable in a sandbox.
In a theme park, teleportation is structured such that the designers set out the teleporters and the players use them as designed. It's all balanced and structured so that everyone gets a consistent experience out of the game.
In a sandbox, teleportation would be structured such that players can set up teleportation themselves. There would be appropriate restrictions, but the players would set everything up themselves to support whatever agenda they're after.
Sandboxes certainly require more work from someone, because somebody has to have the enthusiasm and interest to set up the teleportation stuff. But the rest of the players that work with those guys can then use the teleporters as if a game designer had done the work.
Sandboxes don't have to include PvP. That's just one gameplay tool among many that can be given to sandbox players.
A sandbox is interesting to any player, PvE or otherwise, because sandboxes have emergent gameplay. Sandboxes consist of a game environment with a bunch of tools for players to fiddle with. Players are expected to come up with interesting combinations of those tools. If the developers picked a good set of tools, then the gameplay that will emerge will be enjoyable. If the developers put in the wrong combination of tools, mayhem can result.
Theme parks are given that appellation because they don't provide tools for creating rides but rather come with rides preassembled. "Do these six things in sequence and something good will happen." That's restrictive to a PvE player because there is no emergent gameplay. The game will always have that one ride with six steps and it will never change. A sandbox would take that ride apart and let the players combine the six steps any way they wanted. Some will produce desirable results while others will produce disaster. It all depends on the motivation of the involved player.
So the net result is that a sandbox is interesting to any player because emergent gameplay produces more varied interactions for players. You'll have more options, and the players will be more motivated to pursue their options because whatever they choose will be theirs.
The only people who don't care about sandboxes are those who have found a game that does exactly what they're after. So a player who wants to kill monsters, gain levels and gear up can play World of Warcraft. That's perfectly legitimate. It's a ride that they enjoy and they don't need it to change.
Yeah I understand but I haven't seen an MMO realise this so far.
If you look at Neverwinter Nights, it is a brilliant example of what you can do if you are provided the right tools to generate new content. There is sooooo much content for that game it ain't even funny. There isn't a single MMO which has even a small fraction of the content for that game. There is still new content coming out for that game even after 8-10(?) years since its release. Players have created tons of quests, zones, classes, races, mobs, items even various systems within the game. You also have the opportunity to have a dungeon master who can change the experience as the adventuring party progresses through the module.
Some of that content is simply brilliant with some amazing storylines, quests and tons of room for roleplaying and player interaction.
Neverwinter Nights can be considered the most "sandboxy" experience by going with some of the definitions in this thread.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Its true sandboxs dont need or have to have PvP but they ALWAYS do, and to many players it can be determental because it can ruin your immersion as your trying to just do your own thing and someone attacks you. For the player assaulting it can be fun but most of the time as in darkfall, I would just stand still and let them do their thing, in hopes of having them not attack me again for fear of boredom, worked wonders lol.
I think people feel the need to be competitive even in a sandbox world, just to go oh look how much influence I have over this part of the sandbox!
i personally agree with the op mostly, sandboxes are my mmo future atleast. At this point im entirely fed up with the vast selection of themepark rides most of which i never bothered with anyways. Still waiting for the next entire 3d virtual augmented envirment, something akin to ultima online.
People say they want sandbox but they always choose theme park.
Sandbox can be too much work. When I log into a game I want a game....not work. I play to escape life and work.
Too much sandbox (and inherently realism) is not fun. Lets take an example. I want to craft a weapon. This weapon can be crafted with many different types of wood and the type I want only grows during a particular season. I have to wait for this wood or look for another type. I choose to craft it with a broom handle instead of grown wood. The broom handle is brittle so I have to make sealant or glue to strengthen the wood. The glue is created by mixing two components. I decide to skip both and use a magical compound. The compound is created by loot that drops from a mob that spawns at night in a remote corner of the forest. See how this can go on and on and on? Too much headache, too much work, too much sandbox.
The best solution is a compromise between sandbox and theme park. I have not seen a game reach that ideal yet.
And you forgot a very basic feature inherit in most sandbox game designs. You can trade ANYTHING. You don't need to wait for the particular seasons. Someone that likes to do gathering has done that for you. You can purchase the component from him. You don't want to run off to the dark part of the dark forest on the dark continent that will take you two days to get their and many more to get back out? You don't need to. Some adventurer that likes that sort of thing has killed the thing and very likely has the component for sale.
In sandbox, the player picks and chooses what features of the game they want take part in rather than the streamlined feature set the developers have decided the players will have. A sandbox game is also typically set up so the player actually has a choice to avoid or not participate in certain aspects of the game.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Comments
If someone only or foremostly loves themepark style of MMO's, then I don't see why any sandbox feature would please or benefit you.
But speaking in general, I think that UO and SWG showed enough PvE content and options that the players of those games liked, features and mechanics that offered more freedom and flexibility than those features as seen in themepark oriented gameplay, if they were present in those MMO's at all.
A player driven economy in MMO's like UO, SWG and EVE that went a lot deeper than in other MMO's, where crafting wasn't just tacked on or rudimentary, where crafters had a career path and profession that offered as much variety and full time entertainment for those who opted it as pvp and raiding could give for others. Player made cities that as hubs were as meaningful, lively and useful as any dev provided NPC populated town or city. Player made buildings and complexes that were as interesting and challenging as dev created dungeons or haunting houses could be.
As a case of player generated content that isn't a sandbox feature, the Foundry of STO, where quests and storylines are created that are more interesting and varied than most of the quests that are created by devs.
Another good example is Xsyon, where you can terraform the environment, creating things like for example a moat around your tribe's settlement as defense, or create a hill to build your city on.
Sure, some of these features can be found in themepark MMO's as well, but often in a more rudimentary form; in sandbox MMO's these same features often typically have more depth, flexibility and a wider range of possibilities and things to do with them than you can see in non-sandbox MMO's, with the effect that the result of these features play a larger role in the gameplay and offer more entertainment value.
Content created by other players, that contributes value and entertaining gameplay to other players as equal and sometimes better than what the devs could provide. Which is what my OP was about.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Sandboxes don't have to include PvP. That's just one gameplay tool among many that can be given to sandbox players.
A sandbox is interesting to any player, PvE or otherwise, because sandboxes have emergent gameplay. Sandboxes consist of a game environment with a bunch of tools for players to fiddle with. Players are expected to come up with interesting combinations of those tools. If the developers picked a good set of tools, then the gameplay that will emerge will be enjoyable. If the developers put in the wrong combination of tools, mayhem can result.
Theme parks are given that appellation because they don't provide tools for creating rides but rather come with rides preassembled. "Do these six things in sequence and something good will happen." That's restrictive to a PvE player because there is no emergent gameplay. The game will always have that one ride with six steps and it will never change. A sandbox would take that ride apart and let the players combine the six steps any way they wanted. Some will produce desirable results while others will produce disaster. It all depends on the motivation of the involved player.
So the net result is that a sandbox is interesting to any player because emergent gameplay produces more varied interactions for players. You'll have more options, and the players will be more motivated to pursue their options because whatever they choose will be theirs.
The only people who don't care about sandboxes are those who have found a game that does exactly what they're after. So a player who wants to kill monsters, gain levels and gear up can play World of Warcraft. That's perfectly legitimate. It's a ride that they enjoy and they don't need it to change.
People say they want sandbox but they always choose theme park.
Sandbox can be too much work. When I log into a game I want a game....not work. I play to escape life and work.
Too much sandbox (and inherently realism) is not fun. Lets take an example. I want to craft a weapon. This weapon can be crafted with many different types of wood and the type I want only grows during a particular season. I have to wait for this wood or look for another type. I choose to craft it with a broom handle instead of grown wood. The broom handle is brittle so I have to make sealant or glue to strengthen the wood. The glue is created by mixing two components. I decide to skip both and use a magical compound. The compound is created by loot that drops from a mob that spawns at night in a remote corner of the forest. See how this can go on and on and on? Too much headache, too much work, too much sandbox.
The best solution is a compromise between sandbox and theme park. I have not seen a game reach that ideal yet.
I can't realistically see this being true. Sandbox in the 'true' sense of the word lacks too much direction. Most players will always need some sort of direction to enjoy a game. When you give people too many choices they tend to have trouble enjoying that freedom. There needs to be a balance between open content and direction for a game to succeed. It would be nice to see more games with player driven content (this doesn't necessarily make it a sandbox, though), however it's rare to see a game that can do that correctly.
I feel that its not the recent sandboxes [mo, df, etc] that are the problem. Its the resources and thought that are going into them. A well designed sandbox would eb balanced enough that it allows ffa pvp while not killing off other playstyles. Maybe using an eve-like security rating system.
A well designed sandbox with a goof "backbone" community would easily releive the workload nessesary. Looking for a rare resource. buy it. Need a sword, find a crafter and have it made. But it would still require a good community to keep it working.
Its also very easy to add "rides" to a sandbox. Want to go on a quest grind. Join the mages or mercenaries [npc] guild and do the quests attached.
sandbox is the future. As long as they're well though out sandboxes. Not underfunded pvp fests with a non existant economy and a ten year grind. [darkfall]
Note that I said sandbox features, not sandbox MMO.
I agree that a mix is the best, MMO's that are a mix of themepark and sandbox features, offering the directed gameplay for those players who need it, but also offering the flexibility and freedom in features to enable emergent gameplay, a community that by investing their time in those player tools and content help create a richer world that's a mix of dev provided content and community generated content.
So far it looks like ArcheAge is the only MMO that's going fully into that direction.
Although EVE seems to cater more towards different kinds of gameplay as well, if I look at what Incarna and Dust514 has to offer.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have a very big problem with sandbox type of MMOs. I want game to entertain me (and as quickly as possible), not running around trying to entertain myself somehow. All that "bunch of tools for players to fiddle with" sound good on paper, but not that good in reality. Actually i like the idea too, but always get an awful experience when i try some sandbox game.
Well, let's take my experience with EVE. First of all i don't like PvP too much, so I decided to try some PvE activity first. I started as... well, you can guess it - high sec miner. Do i need to tell you how boring this type of activity is? Just target a new asteroid in 180/360 seconds and activate you strip miners. That is ultimate boredom! So i tried some trading. Well, that was fun for a start. But after some time i found myself doing same things over and over again. And all the money i get, well, i couldn't find a way to use it! Got myself some implants, skill books i needed. But for a new transport ship i need skills that would be learning for the next few months...just because there is a huge gap between industrial ships and freighters. So i tried missions. That was even more boring than mining actually. You have to do some stupid repetitive missions over and over again just to get enough standing for next level agent in order to get harder (with better rewards) missions and repeat that stand grinding again. Even WoW daily quests grinding feels like fun after that. So I finally tried PvP with some academy corp. And that was a lot of fun. The best PvP experience in MMORPG I may say. But you can't just log in when you can and hop on some action. Most corps require you to follow some schedule, take part in KTAs or you'll be kicked out. And i can't effort that. In smaller corps you don't have to do it, but you have to organize ppl yourself for some activity. I'm not that great in organizing dudes so i quit EVE.
I don't want to say something bad about EVE. I still like the idea, I like to read some battle reports, but there is no way i'll going to try it ever again. So with most sandbox games i tried: you get more fun reading about it than playing it. And mostly it's a huge time sinkhole. So I think I'm more about themepark MMORPGs like WoW or just some multiplayer games like Team Fortress, Battlefield or SC2. They are a way more casual player friendly.
I think a mixture if features would be the best.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
Sandbox in no way implies realism. They are orthogonal considerations.
A sandbox design focuses on providing tools that players employ in a variety of ways to pursue their own goals. Patterning after reality is one way to package everything up, but there's no reason that completely unrealistic tools and patterns cannot be implemented. For example, a sandbox doesn't have to require realistic travel times. Teleportation isn't realistic, but it's perfectly acceptable in a sandbox.
In a theme park, teleportation is structured such that the designers set out the teleporters and the players use them as designed. It's all balanced and structured so that everyone gets a consistent experience out of the game.
In a sandbox, teleportation would be structured such that players can set up teleportation themselves. There would be appropriate restrictions, but the players would set everything up themselves to support whatever agenda they're after.
Sandboxes certainly require more work from someone, because somebody has to have the enthusiasm and interest to set up the teleportation stuff. But the rest of the players that work with those guys can then use the teleporters as if a game designer had done the work.
Yeah I understand but I haven't seen an MMO realise this so far.
If you look at Neverwinter Nights, it is a brilliant example of what you can do if you are provided the right tools to generate new content. There is sooooo much content for that game it ain't even funny. There isn't a single MMO which has even a small fraction of the content for that game. There is still new content coming out for that game even after 8-10(?) years since its release. Players have created tons of quests, zones, classes, races, mobs, items even various systems within the game. You also have the opportunity to have a dungeon master who can change the experience as the adventuring party progresses through the module.
Some of that content is simply brilliant with some amazing storylines, quests and tons of room for roleplaying and player interaction.
Neverwinter Nights can be considered the most "sandboxy" experience by going with some of the definitions in this thread.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Its true sandboxs dont need or have to have PvP but they ALWAYS do, and to many players it can be determental because it can ruin your immersion as your trying to just do your own thing and someone attacks you. For the player assaulting it can be fun but most of the time as in darkfall, I would just stand still and let them do their thing, in hopes of having them not attack me again for fear of boredom, worked wonders lol.
I think people feel the need to be competitive even in a sandbox world, just to go oh look how much influence I have over this part of the sandbox!
i personally agree with the op mostly, sandboxes are my mmo future atleast. At this point im entirely fed up with the vast selection of themepark rides most of which i never bothered with anyways. Still waiting for the next entire 3d virtual augmented envirment, something akin to ultima online.
And you forgot a very basic feature inherit in most sandbox game designs. You can trade ANYTHING. You don't need to wait for the particular seasons. Someone that likes to do gathering has done that for you. You can purchase the component from him. You don't want to run off to the dark part of the dark forest on the dark continent that will take you two days to get their and many more to get back out? You don't need to. Some adventurer that likes that sort of thing has killed the thing and very likely has the component for sale.
In sandbox, the player picks and chooses what features of the game they want take part in rather than the streamlined feature set the developers have decided the players will have. A sandbox game is also typically set up so the player actually has a choice to avoid or not participate in certain aspects of the game.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.