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Why sandbox features are the way of the future
MMO.Maverick
Member CommonPosts: 7,619
Looking upon the genre, its possibilities and how its wide variety of features are received, I think there's a limit to the possibilities of themepark core features.
Why am I saying this?
By their very nature, gameplay in themepark oriented MMO's leans heavily on dev provided content and a directed, controlled gameplay experience.
However, these features are very resource intensive, and have become more and more resource intensive over the years.
Take for example quests, a major part in the quest based leveling experience that themepark MMO's offer.
In the early MMO's, quests could be simple and suffice to be 'kill x of y', 'get z' or 'go to A' quests. It didn't cost much dev time to implement them, they weren't that abundant. With themepark MMO's quests started to play a far larger role, replacing mob grinding as main leveling means. This meant it also started to take a considerably larger amount of resources and dev time to create the required amount of content needed to quest level, more than MMO's with mob grind leveling needed. However, doing a huge abundance of questing in multiple MMO's, the simple mechanics of quests have been tiring out, deleting as a valuable entertainment resource for large portions of the MMO playerbase: much alike an area that has been deforested and agricultured so heavily that little will grow on it anymore, its innate nutrients in the soil used up too quickly and heavily.
Which leads to quests having to be something beyond the simple mechanics that people grow tired of. Which means to more complex and resource intensive mechanics required like WoW's post-CATA type of story questing or minigame questing, or a more cinematic, story immersive kind of questing like GW2, SWTOR and TSW seem to implement and that AoC had.
However, it's reaching the point where only the largest MMO companies are able to continue on this path, the resources needed to deliver this kind of deeper, more complex questing more and more mounting.
And then there's another problem: a lot of MMO gamers favor a faster and faster means of leveling, leading to the time to level cap becoming short when MMO companies cater to that desire. Especially if you compare with MMO's like EQ where the time to reach level cap could easily be 1000+ hours, where now you reach level cap in 200-250 hours, in newer MMO's like DCUO or Rift even 150 hours or less.
The problem here is however that the gameplay changes at level cap and questing becomes less relevant. This means that that part which themepark MMO's depend heavily on, a questbased leveling experience, and that costs more and more resources of an MMO budget to make entertaining, is also the one that becomes irrelevant faster in newer MMO's. It only covers the first 200 hours of gameplay while MMO's are often intended to provide thousands of hours of gameplay.
And this is the core problem in the current progression of the MMO genre: it costs more and more resources to provide acceptable, high level quality of content in themepark oriented, quest heavy MMORPG's, while a large portion of that content is only good for the first 200-300 hours of the 1000+ hours of gameplay that MMO's often are supposed to offer.
So, then what? How to provide more gameplay with the same amount of resources (money, manpower, development time)?
One option is to add randomisers or offer different content to level, content that doesn't lose value after the first 200 hours of playtime. We see examples of this in Rift's rifts or GW2's Dynamic Events.
The problem is, randomisers as sole method can become boring after a while, adding random elements can take more resources to implement than simple, straight content, and, as with all dev provided content, it'll be consumed and used up after a while anyway.
So, how to have MMO's progress further, more content being added to them without all MMO's requiring monster budgets to make?
I think there's only one sure way to evolve MMO's further, being able to deliver more high quality content and variety in it than current MMO's have, and that is to make use heavily of the one resource that is potentially unending and random enough: players themselves.
No AI can hope to be as smart or unpredictable as the best of players can be. Other players are the ones that breathe life in an MMO, that help make an MMO world an environment of constantly changing, non-scripted events and situations.
And that's where the ingenuity of sandbox oriented MMO's lie: when done well the features of a sandbox oriented MMO make better use of players as resource than themepark oriented MMO's do, which in turn leads to more content variety (or unpredictability) and amount of content being generated than in themepark oriented MMO's is the case.
That's why giving more flexibility in tools and options to players is something that should be considered in all MMO's: dev provided content is good, but there's a limit to what it can offer in entertainment and some content is consumed faster than other content. In all the cases however devs can't hope to keep up with the speed in which players consume content, unless they build in timesinks, things that cost little to program and implement but that costs a lot of time for players to be busy with. However, that has the risk of grind and players losing interest because of it.
Another way is though provide an environment where players are able to generate a lot of content and variety in it themselves, that is entertaining enough for other players to spend their time with.
That doesn't have to be all sandbox features.
A User Generated Content tool, like the Foundry in STO for example, isn't really a sandbox feature, but it does enable players to generate content. UGC tooling, when done well, has the potential to add a lot of content and entertainment to an MMO. Another example of UGC is Second Life, where you see a lot of content being generated in a wide range by players of it themselves.
Another is a player ecology, which is typically more present in sandbox MMO's than themepark oriented ones. Player driven economies, player cities, player controlled territories, player driven environment restructuring etc.
It costs resources for a dev team to implement all these, and intelligent design to make it interesting for players from the first stage of building things up to the later more advanced and complex stages. But when it comes down to it, it's far less resources than themepark styled, dev driven content costs to create, with a higher return on investment when things are up and running.
One of the best examples is of course EVE Online, where a large amount of the content that keeps players busy and entertained is the content that players provide for eachother by their own actions.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
I am looking forward to the day when somebody creates a ruleset and construction kit so robust that people can actually create their own (developer checked) worlds, like some sort of multidimensional GURPs/Rifts (... the P&P RPG) type thing.
Some literal player created content. Actually designing everything from appearance to... well, everything.
A really powerful, simple, flexible tool set and maybe even a method of having the best designers earn some profit would be a great way to have as much content as possible.
Sort of like Little Big Planet having a baby with Second Life, only with it actually being a good game. :T
I agree that the current MMOs are set up where people max out characters and reach the level cap quite easily. The player then usually becomes bored and resorts to tacky achievements as to a way to boast greatness. Star Wars Galaxies had a few good elements before it went on life support and part of the reason it was put on life support was because it removed such elements. I liked how you could find creatures out in the wild and then use a Bio-engineer to mix genetic and get Pets that had stats and abilities that were unique. What was even better is that the Bio-engineer could put these pets up for sale. I can easily see this being applied to crafters who must search out the highest quality ores and invest in certain skills to get unique crafted items to put on the market. I don't think anyone likes to use generic weapons and I would think that most players want to create armor and weapons that not only look unique but also are unique in stats.
Some sandbox things I'd like to see.
Guilds that revolve around crafters. Crafters gain fame not by killing creatures but by making master items. The quality of the item is dependant on the real time invested in it. Not only do you have to get premium materials but you have to train to have high skills and then invest time. You have three elements in crafting.
1. Base materials-The higher the quality then the higher the stats
2. Player skills-Certain weapons take skill and infusing such weapons with powers or abilities may take more that one player. The player contracts services of other players who have skills that he does not posses. For example. A person making a sword has speclized in fire rune magic and can place fire enchantments on the sword but he wants the sword to strike quickly but the speed enchantments are the specialty of someone skilled in wind magic. The player would need another player to put that ability in the sword so he might hire the player, trade with player, or perform a service for the player who might be seeking people skilled in fire magic.
3. Time-Like real life I think items should reflect the amount of time invested in it. If a player wants to invest a real life year in crafting a single sword then that sword should have some awesome stats assuming he used premium materials of course. You can spend a year making a tin sword but it would still be a tin sword.
In summary, I think those three qualities plus maybe a dash of luck for randomness should be applied to crafting so weapons and gear are not simply a icon that fills a slot. Additionally, quality materials can be quested for such as dragon scales for armor.
I'd also like to see the pets in pet classes more customizable not just in stats but in appearance. Why not introduce breeding mechanics where people have to find a male and a female in the wild and capture it successfully without killing it to get quality offspring for pets or mounts. Maybe even add a cross breeding element for species that are similar so you can get pets with unique skills.
I'd like to be able to play a MMO either fantasy or space that has these elements of customization. Other sandbox items that should have some kind of game benefit are inns, bars, clubs, and cantinas. Not only are they good for social roleplay but they should be used to find people to contract and maybe get some sort of resting benefit for combat. I have a feeling I'll be dead of old age by the time the MMO market shifts gears from the generic games put out today.
I'm not sure if this exactly in line with what you're thinking (as I only read about it, never tried it), but Ryzom has a built-in scenario builder where you can basically populate an area with content, mobs, quests yourself and then make it either a public or private scenario for people to go through... in an instanced way of course... that way there's no need for developer checks.
Unfortunatley the Ryzom community is so small that not many people will ever get to experience this. I played for a bit, but just couldn't deal with the ghost town of a world...
You know? I wish Bioware had gone that way, Neverwinter Nights and NWN2 were good progressions along that path: the player created worlds were great. It only needed the possibility to have more than 200 people in each world, and the option to have some overarching meta ruleset or standard that made it possible to connect all those player made worlds with eachother, with the possibility for your character to hop from 1 world to another (eg via portals or such).
A shame they didn't make NWN3, I'd have loved to see an evolution of that kind of gameplay and design.
In my eyes, with NWN and NWN2 you had true MORPG's, to enable those player created MORPG worlds to connect with eachother or to expand would've been great: a player created MMORPG.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
... if Bioware had gone in that direction instead of with SW:ToR, I'd be punching nuns if I thought that would make their game come out faster. I'd even pay a subscription for that sort of thing.
ESPECIALLY if it was a more GURPs like, rather than D&Dlike rule system... something that allows everything from magic to science to psychics to... whatever.
I really like building things, and also seeing what other creative people come up with.
I agree with putting content into the hands of the players. Look at StarCraft. They gave the community the tools to build their own maps, and for only the price of running the servers Blizzard got an endless supply of content to keep people playing their game.
This concept could translate directly into an MMO by giving players the ability to create dungeons, cities, items... Handing this type of thing to the players would not only save money, but would create a truly evolving and intrigueing game world.
Heh, yeah, that would've been great. Now we have to look forward to Cryptic's Neverwinter Nights, with its User Content Generation tooling.
I don't think it will be an extrapolation or evolution of the path that BW's NWN and NWN2 went in, sadly enough, but the Foundry of STO seems to deliver a nice UGC feature, so we'll see.
I agree, when done smart, it could make a game world a whole lot livelier and interesting.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with alot of what the OP says, I had expierenced my first sandbox in darkfall and it was a great game, save the constant griefing in an already grindy game with full body loot, I would still be playing. Developers really have stopped caring about the leveling up process most of the time, or maybe its the attitude of the players but everyone is just always worried about end game. The majority of the content is all focused on end game, very little value is put on making the level process fun and enjoyable. One of the simplest ways to making leveling up fun is to just give people atlernatives that actually work at a decent rate. Crafting, Questing, Grinding, and PvP should all be viable ways to level so you don't just get bored doing the same thing over and over. Bored with questing and grinding, go level up your crafting and get experience this way, or PvP.
I am still waiting for the next great PVE MMO, one that is perferably a sandbox and where PvP changes have no influence on the PVE world.
I strongly believe that the oldschool sandbox MMOs were simply too far ahead of their time. The design philosophies and concepts were in the right place, however the technology and development experience simply wasn't advanced enough to tackle the ideals of the sandbox philosophy.
I hope that in the near future, developers will begin to embrace many of the sandbox MMO concepts that have in recent years been left out in the cold. There is a great deal of potential in many of them, provided the proper attention in development is given to these mechanics, and that they are tailored together into a game with a decent level of completeness (polish).
I completely agree, sandboxs are the future. If they can get away from sandbox = ffa pvp.
Sandboxes typically require a way to screw each other.
Since MMO-Tards expect combat to be the largest amount of content, we get PvP. Rather than political, trade, crafting, survival content.
Personally I would abosulotly love to see cut throat politics where guilds are fighting over AI affection of raising/lowering other/their guilds taxes. To be honest most modern day MMO sandboxes are pretty darn retarded.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Why don't you start your own game company and show the industry how to do it the right way? If you are correct, you would be doing everyone a favor.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If you want to know how retarded the term sandbox is, just look at darkfall.
It's are litterally just an evolution of core RvR mechanics. To be honest there is just some traditional MMO stuff piled on after that as an afterthought.
In otherwords darkfall just gets called a sandbox, because every other MMOs fail soo very much at being a sandbox.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Nice post, OP.
Give the kids some toys, a playground (*ahem* sandbox), and they can take care of themselves for a long time.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
True, DF is not a sandbox.
Virtual Worlds are and always were the future. Everything else is a waste of time.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
This cannot be said enough times.
How is Darkfall not a sandbox? I can go anywhere, pick whatever skills I want, wear whatever I want, fight whatever I want. I can be a crafter, I can be a harvester. I can go sailing and fish. I can wander around with a treasure map and dig up buried goods. I can fight anyone anywhere. How is that not a sandbox?
Virtual worlds were the past, maybe one day a AAA MMO will attempt to make one again and people will realize how much more impressive old MMOs were. But with linear single player focused games like SWTOR on the horizon, I don't have much hope.
Darkfall is a pvp game atm. One that I enjoy, but not a sandbox.
Virtual worlds are the future. Everything else is a waste of time. When it comes to the internet, it's usually winner take all too.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Yes, PvP is a big part of the game... but you still haven't said how it's not a sandbox.
Well it depends on what sandbox means to you. The only tools provided to the community to create content are for PVP.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Darkfall is maybe a PvP sandbox, but not a PvE sandbox or PvP/PvE sandbox from what I read about it.
As for upcoming MMO's that'll have sandbox features, I think ArcheAge and WoD fall in that category.
I've also hope for UGC tools (user generated content), but sadly enough Cryptic is the only one exploring that avenue with the Foundry in STO and with their Neverwinter.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think archeage is going to be a themepark game, with sandbox like sideshows. Hope Im wrong, but i doubt it. Dont know about WoD, not enough info.
UGC like you're describing has always been a waste from what ive seen. It's just an option not incorporated into the lore or game. Now if you could create content as a training scenario or something for your guild, that would be nice. May not work with fantasy, but it fits into the game rather than just an option 1% of the people may use. It needs to have a real benefit to use is what im saying i guess.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I think most people use the term "sandbox" to illustrate an ideal where players can create their own content which will supposedly provide endless stream of content etc. However, I haven't seen any MMO do it nor have I seen any realistic ideas on how to do it. What I've heard players talk about is mostly PvP stuff - player controlled territories, economic interaction (which is literally trading and all you need to have is crafting which gives you useful things to craft; not something I consider content), and politics (which is actually the whole territory warfare thingie.
This is not satisfactory content. I would remain a sandbox sceptic until I see real examples of what people proclaim a real "sandbox" MMO to be. It looks like an unrealised philosophy to me at the moment.
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*points to EvE*
May not be your cup of tea but there's no denying that for thousands of 0.0 EvE players the territorial warfare and politics are a stream of near endless content. Also no denying that for the still large amount of traders and industrialists in EvE the economic interaction is considered real content.
Or maybe CCP is just lucky and there's half a million loonies out there paying them to play unsatisfactory content that they secretly don't enjoy at all.
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Territorial warfare is a more sophisticated form of PvP but is this what you all mean by generating new content? PVP? Cause a lot of games have PvP in them but I don't see this as a stream of "new content". It is unsatisfactory to me.
I haven't seen a single convincing sandbox argument which has been applied to practice and is more than some PvP preaching... As far as I have seen EvE doesn't offer much in the PvE department which is not developer generated. Trading doesn't cut it. Why should this idea of a sandbox game appeal to PvE players? Can someone give me an example of how a sandbox MMO will benefit me in any way if I am a PvE player and can't bothered with PvP?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.