The simple fact is that most folks that’s are playing mmo's have been doing so for many years (simply put, we’re bored). The first mmo I've ever played was WoW (4 years worth), to me was great because it was my first. Now; however, it bores my to death. I've tried just about every mmo out (new and old) and while many have in-depth features, none have all.
Yes, I'm one of many still looking for an in-depth mmo. The problem today is three fold. First, like I stated above, most players are bored with current builds. Second, everyone’s idea of in-depth is different (we'll get into what that means for me below) and third, Devs simply want to make a game that will make money (not the greatest game ever made)(I know that doesn't make since because if they made the greatest game ever made, it would make the most money but you have to remember most Dev's are restarted).
So what does in-depth mean to me:
First and foremost, it has to be realistic (not real life, just believable - talking frogs? Really?
Most mmo's both new and old have quests (mainly to keep you busy and progress). The problems with this is I have to go kill 10 rats (ya I know, I went there), then the guy behind me has to kill 10 rats and so on and so on. Why? Where do all these rats keep coming from? What's the point if they are going to just respawn? To the point: it's not in-depth because anything you do has no purpose or outcome for the game (Yes I know there are games out that have done well to fix this issue but they lack other in-depth features).
Environment. Most lack an environment to makes you feel your there. No clouds? If you do have clouds, they don’t move. If you do have clouds that move, there is no wind (sounds that go with). What, we have clouds that move and wind but now to weather (doesn’t rain / snow). And if you are lucky and get moving clouds, winds and weather, somehow high winds don’t slow you down, rainwater doesn’t puddle up and snow doesn’t accumulate. Again, the point is: it’s not believable.
Well, I’m going to stop here because the list of why games don’t feel indepth can and will turn into a book.
I think its because the previous MMO's didnt have the large audiences of WoW like proportions so they were more niche. They had far less hand holding, and things took alot more time and relied far more on the community then the Developers. You can call it grindy because yes if you aren't enjoying repeating some action in an MMO, you are THEN grinding, if you are enjoying it well then the thought doesn't even come up does it. The niche like status of these MMO's allowed them to go into depth of the areas that THEIR players enjoyed, they didn't try to catch every type of player with the same net, so while there game may have had a very indepth crafting system, its PvP was probably fairly bland compared to DaOC.
Simply put, MMO's weren't trying to be designed for a One size fits all, business model back then, they are now, and requiring more money to invest and start up, and having larger target audiences really hurts the developers chances of being able to focus in any one area because they don't want to turn off a contrasting audience. (I.E. PvE raiders contrast with PvPers) etc etc.
The older MMO's were never really that much more deep. People just have a tendency to look back on things with fondness more. I remember for as much as I loved SWG back in the day, there was a lot of stuff in the game that was more of a hassle than fun.
SWG, eh?
Can you name me a newer MMORPG that let you do as much as SWG did before SOE nuked it?
The game in its "good days" definitely had problems and criticisms (deservedly). But it definitely had other viable forms of gameplay (again, crafting), freedom in character building, etc. What other newer MMORPG let players totally immerse themselves in non-combat aspects for all their game time? Where crafters / merchants are just as important to the community and game as a combat-oriented type? EVE is the closest, but that game came out in '03 (same as SWG).
Not to mention an oustanding community SWG once had.
Having other forms of gameplay is NOT depth. It is broad.
Is its combat mechanics as complex as that of WOW? I played EQ for a year and UO beta (hated that game) and their combat mechanics are no where close to the depth of WOW (in terms of procs, CDs, resource management ... even different form of CCs .. although EQ emphasize CC a bit more).
All you can really say to any of these posts no matter which they are is that some people have different tastes and likes and thus the problem with everyone wanting one maker to make their ultimate game...
" You can make all of the people happy some of the time and some of people happy all of the time but you can never make all of the people happy all of the time."
Unfortunately I didn't have the chance to participate in the older classic MMOs (ie. EQ, UO, SWG pre CU) when they were in their prime, so my knowledge of them is all second-hand.
So with that disclaimer, here is where I think one of the major differences may be.
Endgame.
Based on what I've been told and what I've read, "endgame" was not an element in those games. When you don't have an "endgame", you have a lot more freedom in development. You don't have to make it so players can get to endgame quickly and not get bored before they get there. You don't have to worry about sufficient endgame content. You don't have to worry about class balance for endgame. You can make content a lot more challenging, because it's all optional. And becuase the content is more challenging, it takes players longer to get through it and it lasts a lot longer. (Has anyone ever completed all the content available to them in EQ?) There is no gear you *have* to get to do "endgame" content. There's no dungeons people HAVE to be able to beat. You don't have to have efficient ways to level. You don't have to have quest hubs. All of these things are open to whatever creativity the game developers have to offer. And most importantly, the entire game is "the game", not just endgame.
Anyone who has played one or more of those games care to weigh in on this?
Unfortunately I didn't have the chance to participate in the older classic MMOs (ie. EQ, UO, SWG pre CU) when they were in their prime, so my knowledge of them is all second-hand.
So with that disclaimer, here is where I think one of the major differences may be.
Endgame.
Based on what I've been told and what I've read, "endgame" was not an element in those games. When you don't have an "endgame", you have a lot more freedom in development. You don't have to make it so players can get to endgame quickly and not get bored before they get there. You don't have to worry about sufficient endgame content. You don't have to worry about class balance for endgame. You can make content a lot more challenging, because it's all optional. And becuase the content is more challenging, it takes players longer to get through it and it lasts a lot longer. (Has anyone ever completed all the content available to them in EQ?) There is no gear you *have* to get to do "endgame" content. There's no dungeons people HAVE to be able to beat. You don't have to have efficient ways to level. You don't have to have quest hubs. All of these things are open to whatever creativity the game developers have to offer. And most importantly, the entire game is "the game", not just endgame.
Anyone who has played one or more of those games care to weigh in on this?
Well lol I never got to play some of those either. I do however play EQ2. One thing I have found with it is there are always new expansions coming out and yes you can choose whether or not to participate in raiding and dungeons or not. You don't HAVE to get the gear and such unless you choose to play your game that way. I totally enjoy doing dungeons sometimes and hey if someone wants to help me get into a raid or something all the more fun too, but I don't HAVE to. There are enough other things to do in the game to keep a person busy for a long time. Chrono mentoring is a blast and gives high level players a chance to help lower levels as well. You can even do world raids not jsut instanced and I love that you just go where it is going to start and the whole server puts together the raid and everyone joins in for some fun and actually some pretty nice gear at that if you would like some decent stats. All I know is that based on these things and not trying to beat endgame I totally enjoy EQ2. I don't feel stressed out and I play it the way I want to play it not how someone else tells me I have to. Which in some games I have played people say you have a choice but you don't. Everything is main-streamlined so bad that there is no where else to go but to the end and do end content and you have no choice in the matter because there is nothing else to do period but end content.
I saw someone playing EQ1 once and the graphics scared me so bad that I almost never started playing EQ2 boy was I glad when someone told me the difference. ( Some people say graphics do not matter but when I look at a game that doesn't even have as good of graphics as console games I have an issue with that especially if I am paying to play all of the time and not just buying it straight out.) They also told me there were no such things as quests and you had to kill mobs just to be able to level. However I found that to be somewhat of a folly as well. I was told later that when EQ1 originally came out that it had no quests but that quests were added in later. I guess the person I saw playing was behind the times.
One thing EQ2 has done is not make it impossible for them to add storyline they did not just stick themselves with one straight forward line of story and have been able to add throughout the years. Myself I don't mind semi-streamlined quests as long as there is enough content to keep me busy. As well as a good crafting system.
Unfortunately I didn't have the chance to participate in the older classic MMOs (ie. EQ, UO, SWG pre CU) when they were in their prime, so my knowledge of them is all second-hand.
So with that disclaimer, here is where I think one of the major differences may be.
Endgame.
Based on what I've been told and what I've read, "endgame" was not an element in those games. When you don't have an "endgame", you have a lot more freedom in development. You don't have to make it so players can get to endgame quickly and not get bored before they get there. You don't have to worry about sufficient endgame content. You don't have to worry about class balance for endgame. You can make content a lot more challenging, because it's all optional. And becuase the content is more challenging, it takes players longer to get through it and it lasts a lot longer. (Has anyone ever completed all the content available to them in EQ?) There is no gear you *have* to get to do "endgame" content. There's no dungeons people HAVE to be able to beat. You don't have to have efficient ways to level. You don't have to have quest hubs. All of these things are open to whatever creativity the game developers have to offer. And most importantly, the entire game is "the game", not just endgame.
Anyone who has played one or more of those games care to weigh in on this?
Well lol I never got to play some of those either. I do however play EQ2. One thing I have found with it is there are always new expansions coming out and yes you can choose whether or not to participate in raiding and dungeons or not. You don't HAVE to get the gear and such unless you choose to play your game that way. I totally enjoy doing dungeons sometimes and hey if someone wants to help me get into a raid or something all the more fun too, but I don't HAVE to. There are enough other things to do in the game to keep a person busy for a long time. Chrono mentoring is a blast and gives high level players a chance to help lower levels as well. You can even do world raids not jsut instanced and I love that you just go where it is going to start and the whole server puts together the raid and everyone joins in for some fun and actually some pretty nice gear at that if you would like some decent stats. All I know is that based on these things and not trying to beat endgame I totally enjoy EQ2. I don't feel stressed out and I play it the way I want to play it not how someone else tells me I have to. Which in some games I have played people say you have a choice but you don't. Everything is main-streamlined so bad that there is no where else to go but to the end and do end content and you have no choice in the matter because there is nothing else to do period but end content.
I saw someone playing EQ1 once and the graphics scared me so bad that I almost never started playing EQ2 boy was I glad when someone told me the difference. ( Some people say graphics do not matter but when I look at a game that doesn't even have as good of graphics as console games I have an issue with that especially if I am paying to play all of the time and not just buying it straight out.) They also told me there were no such things as quests and you had to kill mobs just to be able to level. However I found that to be somewhat of a folly as well. I was told later that when EQ1 originally came out that it had no quests but that quests were added in later. I guess the person I saw playing was behind the times.
One thing EQ2 has done is not make it impossible for them to add storyline they did not just stick themselves with one straight forward line of story and have been able to add throughout the years. Myself I don't mind semi-streamlined quests as long as there is enough content to keep me busy. As well as a good crafting system.
No offense, but I don't think you understood my post.
I think its because the previous MMO's didnt have the large audiences of WoW like proportions so they were more niche. They had far less hand holding, and things took alot more time and relied far more on the community then the Developers. You can call it grindy because yes if you aren't enjoying repeating some action in an MMO, you are THEN grinding, if you are enjoying it well then the thought doesn't even come up does it. The niche like status of these MMO's allowed them to go into depth of the areas that THEIR players enjoyed, they didn't try to catch every type of player with the same net, so while there game may have had a very indepth crafting system, its PvP was probably fairly bland compared to DaOC.
Simply put, MMO's weren't trying to be designed for a One size fits all, business model back then, they are now, and requiring more money to invest and start up, and having larger target audiences really hurts the developers chances of being able to focus in any one area because they don't want to turn off a contrasting audience. (I.E. PvE raiders contrast with PvPers) etc etc.
No offense, but I don't think you understood my post.
No I understood your point I was just trying to give a different point of view then some people get about games with end content such as EQ2. No WoW does not impress me what so ever and I tried the Rift trial and was not impressed at all. What my point was is that there is a way to do it with end content as well. You just have to put enough in for everyone to enjoy. A lot of different angles and sideline things to do. That way no one gets left out and everyone enjoys the game. Not just one kind of player.
And I disagree with the thing about if you have a big audience not having enough time to focus on everything that is why the bigger games have seperate teams for each angle of the game. And that is what it takes for the ultimate online game is a lot of money a lot of degrees and a lot of different teams for each area of expertise of the game. You just have to have the backing. I have tried some of hte recommended games for crafting that people have said are really good and I don't understand what they see in them there is no RPG at all. So you see there is a reason to make a game that has all angles is because if you don't you don't have enough money to pay those seperate teams that it takes. THis kind of stuff costs no matter how you look at it and so the businesses have to make something that everyone likes they don't have much choice or they would go broke.
It's called inflation over the years that has caused this not the makers choice. And there is a big audience for having games that have everything so no one gets burned out.
What gave older MMO's more depth of gameplay than modern MMO's?
Older games were more-so designed with open environments and promoted in-game aid, necessities, cooperativeness and community from and through players' efforts and involvement amongst the player-base community.
Leads to forced gameplay and social protocols.
Newer games are more-so designed with closed and instanced environments and promote in-game aid and necessities easily from linear questing efforts and involvement with static npc's.
Leads to more strategically sculptured and complex gameplay.
Two ideas in yellow as to the pro's and cons of such systems used to counter you initial premises. All eras of games have pro's and con's and you cannot demiss them in such a way as to make one better than the other. I will say that some modern MMO's have taken the removal of what is considered tedious game design to far thinking thats all Blizzard did and really miss the point of the whole package that Blizzard delivered when they released WoW. Its all about balance, too complex and open and you have no real way to stratigise anything as you have to many variables to consider, too closed and instanced and it becomes to restrictive, predictable and easy.
Cal.
I would argue what is written in yellow. I'm going to refrence WoW (because exept for FFXI, FFXIV..I havn't spent any in-depth time in a "modern MMO")
But in wow you say it leads to a more sculpted and stratigic game play. WoW is anything but stratigic, You have a set area you level, untill you reach a certain level, then you hop on the tredmill do the exact same thing as everyone else earing "epic gear" and then about the time you start collecting that gear...blam, blizzard comes out with an expansion pack.
Anyways....just doesn't seem... creative, or stratigic.
And the first arguement "forced gameplay" well.....its a game. if you want to play it then play it. It cracks me up people who buy a MMO, and then are like "no I dont' want to play the way it was designed...change it or i'm leaving"
No offense, but I don't think you understood my post.
No I understood your point I was just trying to give a different point of view then some people get about games with end content such as EQ2. No WoW does not impress me what so ever and I tried the Rift trial and was not impressed at all. What my point was is that there is a way to do it with end content as well. You just have to put enough in for everyone to enjoy. A lot of different angles and sideline things to do. That way no one gets left out and everyone enjoys the game. Not just one kind of player.
No, you didn't get my point. My point is that any time you have a real "end-game" per se, all the prior content becomes mostly meaningless no matter how varied your end-game content is, particularly when your end-game content requires certain gear. In this regard, EQ2 is no different from WoW or Rift. EQ was designed to take much much longer to get to level cap, and (to my knowledge) has no "end-game" specific content that requires any particular gear to do.
So I guess what I'm saying is the difference is two-fold: a focus on end-game content and gear grind.
What gave older MMO's more depth of gameplay than modern MMO's?
Older games were more-so designed with open environments and promoted in-game aid, necessities, cooperativeness and community from and through players' efforts and involvement amongst the player-base community.
Leads to forced gameplay and social protocols.
Newer games are more-so designed with closed and instanced environments and promote in-game aid and necessities easily from linear questing efforts and involvement with static npc's.
Leads to more strategically sculptured and complex gameplay.
Two ideas in yellow as to the pro's and cons of such systems used to counter you initial premises. All eras of games have pro's and con's and you cannot demiss them in such a way as to make one better than the other. I will say that some modern MMO's have taken the removal of what is considered tedious game design to far thinking thats all Blizzard did and really miss the point of the whole package that Blizzard delivered when they released WoW. Its all about balance, too complex and open and you have no real way to stratigise anything as you have to many variables to consider, too closed and instanced and it becomes to restrictive, predictable and easy.
Cal.
I would argue what is written in yellow. I'm going to refrence WoW (because exept for FFXI, FFXIV..I havn't spent any in-depth time in a "modern MMO")
But in wow you say it leads to a more sculpted and stratigic game play. WoW is anything but stratigic, You have a set area you level, untill you reach a certain level, then you hop on the tredmill do the exact same thing as everyone else earing "epic gear" and then about the time you start collecting that gear...blam, blizzard comes out with an expansion pack.
Anyways....just doesn't seem... creative, or stratigic.
And the first arguement "forced gameplay" well.....its a game. if you want to play it then play it. It cracks me up people who buy a MMO, and then are like "no I dont' want to play the way it was designed...change it or i'm leaving"
Ok well you can say strategic for WoW but I Have to disagree. How is watching a meter for dps strategic? Or watching a meter to see who can throw out the most HPS? Which it ends up coming down to once the fights are learned is the meters in WoW.
As far as Cata goes. Strategy at times does you no good in the dungeons because there are a few bosses that are nothing but pure luck of oh crap the dragon breathed on everyone of us because he decided to turn this way or that way. Some of the bosses yes were strategy but if you play with people who actually know how to play again it is all about meters not strategy. Right off the bat after Cata came out and I was geared for ther heroics I pugged one of the heroics and we one shotted every boss in there simply by having HIGH dps and a healer with HIGH hps. The guy who actually had done it before when we got to the bosses said these are all dps fights so get it up there and we'll be fine. Other than that one of the bosses is simply the healer knowing what n eeded to be dispelled. There was no strategy about it what so ever once the healer knew to dispel it.
If there is any strategy at all once you learn the fight it becomes so easy and repetative that pretty soon there is a burn out issue then "oh well no more gear in these for me why am I still doing them? I am tired of this let me out of here!!"
Then once you are sick and tired of the repetativeness you start farming to make money and if you know what you are doing have the best mounts money can buy within less than 3 months and that is even with digging the recipe up yourself. Once you reach that point you have to wait for the next content patch so then you are farmimg trash for gear because maybe you don't play with all of the ones who know how to play because they tend to be total jerks and you can't even stand to be around them because all they do is sit there and downgrade other people to make themselves feel more high and mighty like they are better than everyone else so no raids because for myself I can not stand to be around people like that. I grew up getting treated like they treat other people and it sickens me.
And yes I raided with some of the really good ones who had played for a long time and in wotlk something about them changed and pretty soon the only time you ever saw them log in was when they were raiding and they just seemed more distant somehow. You didn't go out and do things together like you did before and Wotlk was when the meters were the HUGE thing as well as the GS addon. When someone was putting together a raid it was like you had to give them a resume just to be able to get into their raid which in turn took all of the fun out of it and then all you played was a job not a game anymore and no relaxation at all. Nothing for dowtime for a sideline to keep you from getting sick and tired after doing every quest in the game and having nothing more to do and because it was so centered around end game no one even wanted to go with you to get old raid achievements or anything like that.
Then the lfg system came out even worse by like 50 times as to how the communtiy started acting and treating each other. So I would much rather play a game that is more balanced then to feel like I am stuck in a rut because all there is left for me to do is to go raid with a bunch of people who no matter what age they are act like teenagers.
Of course this is my opinion on what you had to say about making a game which is only concentrated on one thing instead of everything in the game. Because that is exactly what is happening in WoW they are only concentrating on one thing nowadays and it really sucks because all of the fun has been taken out of it for me.
The resume was the actual reason I left WoW, I played a Hunter (I know people always made fun of them) it was back in the days of BC, Anyways I always had a "owl" pet, he was awesome. and I loved playing with that one pet, I had blues and a couple of purples, and just because I used a Owl instead of a lion people wouldn't raid with me. I got turned down so many times. And finally I was like "this is just stupid" I mean. everyone had a certain build for each class...and if they varried, you didn't get parties.
Another example is I started playing after one of my friends played for a while, so he was at 70 back when I was at like level 30, so I kinda had a mentor through-out the game, One thing that was always previlent, before I would start grouping for a certain dungon or somthing he would be like "oh you need this gear first" "oh you need to crawl this dungon to get this gear before you can crawl this dungon"
My overall point is it was VERY specific on what EXACTLY you needed, and if you tried to very a little bit from the path people wouldn't want to raid/party with you.
a page or two ago people started talking about timesinkes vs. faucets of the game. And quite honestly I think the argument voids itself, I mean "timesink vs...a game" a game is made to be a FUN time sink, So I think the arguement should be: Fun time sinks VS. unfun time sinks.
And here is my responce: Without the "unfun" time sinks, the reward is not near as cool.
Example: I played FFXI for around 4 years (And in my opinion it was THE BEST mmo ever made, and yes I know you probably disagree...and thats fine) Anyways, One of the things that made that game great was how difficult it was, yes it was frusterating....but rewarding. Nothing beats leveling up after a all night party, grinding away for endless hours. Getting to know people in your group. In FFXI they had gold crafting, I only knew of 1 person that had capped goldcrafting. And he was like a god, it took him close to a year to do it.
But if you look at WoW, MOST people have: 3-6 char. capped at 85, and 3 of those chars. have crafting skills capped. For instance, My friend who had been playing awhile, wen't from 0-350 (cap at the time) with engineering in a single night, he had enough gold...how is that epic/fun? who wants to be a crafter if everone can craft already.
So I repeat my statement,
Timesinks/risk = reward
easy to play/streemlined = game that you only stick with for 6 months
One thing not considered an awful lot is that the MMO market is now saturated with high quality games. Despite the slathering rants of disgruntled coke swilling spoilt brats, who think every dev has got it wrong, the current crop of games really are of a high quality.
As an old git who played EQ on release, trust me, whilst being a great game for its time it had its problems. Hitting a snake or rat... it went Ouch! in a distincly human voice. The characters had oblong heads, I spent 2 hours in the Karana's on a quest... and got 2 copper for it. But!
It was new, UO not withstanding, EQ was the first first person 3D popular MMO RPG. I still remember being staggered by the fact I was in a group in Blackburrow with an American, a Frenchman, a Canadian, a German and myself (Brit) playing in a fantasy world, all from our own homes. Grouping and getting to know strangers whilst working together in a common cause was unbelievably good fun... and something new to most of us.
Remember your first kiss and fumble, or your first car or motorbike? It was an awesome new experience. I wouldn't dare drive that old nail now, even if I could... and the same for the car / motorbike.
A lot of gamers of today expect instant gratification, Devs try to provide. Then they get bored. If it's not hard to achieve, then it maybe wasn't worth achieving.
I currently play Rift... yeah! I,ve read all the posts, I know. But I enjoy it. It really is a quality game. Like most modern MMO's it does suffer from the fact that it was made easy mode, which does not allow people the time to get to know and grow fond of their toons. Most now wish to rush to endgame, to strut their stuff. Fair play, I dont believe anyone should dictate anothers playstyle. Problem is, it does impact on game design.
In real life, take it from this dribbling old git who is too slow for PVP, dont rush to Endgame... all you'll find is a polished wooden box.
In older games it took a lot more time to accomplish anything. Experience was very hard to come by and you had very limited scripted content (like quests) to hold your hand through the levelling, instead you were forced to farm mobs often in groups. You spend few levels in one area before moving to a next. You might visit a city to get supplies and skills, but mostly you just grinded mobs. The worst example of this is probably Lineage 2. Games before WoW were really designed for more hardcore gamers, who had time to spend a lot of time with the game whereas new games are aimed towards casual gamers. And soloability in mind.
My game time is limited these days, so I am really not looking forward to old-style MMORPGs anymore.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Didn't read a single post in this thread, but I can tell you that people's enjoyment comes down to one thing. Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
Older MMOs had depth because the players gave depth. The MMO industry is not flooded with insta-gamers that have no imagination and can't create systems for themselves to enjoy the games given to them. Older games had people workign together and creating their own parties and events. Now, everyone is just waiting for the developers to give them something instead of comunicating with their peers and creating something for themselves.
Don't blame the developers for their design, blame the players for their lack of imagination, spirit of cooperation, and overall dickishness to their fellow man.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift Willing to try anything new
What surprises me is the fact that this genre kept simplifiying everything with every new title released. They also kept scratching older features/concept or rehashing them with a shallow clone.
Example, the Faction System from EverQuest compared to the Repuation system from WoW. That is a feature from EQ that was so good, made shallower and linear in WoW.
Why can't a publisher "expand" on the old school MMORPG? go back to what these games were about and expand on that. We have plenty of colorful/retarded MMORPGs how about someone make a decent MMORPG for a change huh? just as a goof? It might work this time???
Older games were written to be games. Newer games are written to make money.
It really is that simple. If you want money rolling in the door, you have to cater to the ADD crowd of teeagers who will "win" your game in 30 days and be gone, as well as the old timers who can only play for 5 hours a week but still want to fee like they're making progress.
That's why everything is stupidly easy in games now. The time-challenged can still feel that they're making progress becaues even a couple hours can net you a level. The ADD kids can blow by all the silly "content" and get to endgame where they can minmax against each other until they get bored and move on.
I don't see that changing unless a company somewhere feels content to just make a profit, rather than have to provide their investors with a 500% ROI every quarter.
I solidly share your opinion in this, game mechanics aside, their ment to make money. We can all bark from the side lines, but put yourself in a designers shoes. They just aren't given the artistic freedom to make good cames, rather where being fed 20% game and the rest commercial content.
Let's brake this down Yo Gabba Gabba style. Your S.A. is well informed and has truth in all areas. But with this information I draw a conclusion, rather than simply know it. Obviously Blizzard is attempting to satisy a rediculously huge audience i.e. everyone. But most importantly, they are aiming at the general population. Now what would cause such an inscentive, I don't even need to build a reason as to why it would be (Subscription 14.99). Has anyone figured 10,000,000 multiplied by 14.99, that's a lot of Snapple. Speaking of snapple, let's parallel our precious gameing industry with soda. Their are differant flavors of soda, because people have differant tastes. No flavor could encompass the desire of every person, but their are flavors more popular than others. The MMO genre is a very new thing and WOW is a great example of how big our industry is. But WOW is not the industry, it is just simply our coke. When cooperations start understanding that a good sized portion play WOW for lack of competition. Competitors will be made, for God sakes I know I'm not the only one looking for options. You can ask the 1.5 million who bought warhammer including me. WOW's butter is spread way to thin for my taste and I wouldn't doubt that millions agree with me. If your trying to satisy everyones desire for content, a good portion of us are going to be left with a sour taste. So really, I do beleive a mmo will be molded to fit a narrower audience. But when and how I don't know.
Apart from Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies there were no old MMO's with more depth of gameplay. Only some players who are stuck in the past think most of them were.
Most MMO's were and are very simple. And even with MMO's that had complexity, it was only complex for a few. For example, I loved Anarchy Online, but I dont like how ppl always act as if its such a complex game. Back then most gamers also simply relied upon guides written by a few. So most of those Anarchy Online players were also playing a simple game, because others already did the work of finding stuff out for them. Same goes for SWG btw. All those copycats claiming that they are playing this complex game which makes them so elite, are just hypocrite.
Main difference with now is that designers took out the most horrific forms of timesinks. Like spawncamping or ridiculous waiting times that are only workable if everyone is willing to play hours on each day.
For me depth is all about character development and how you actually live and breath in the world you are part of. All most modern MMO's now seem to be instanced to high heaven and could easily be the equivalent of multiplayer console games. It just doesn't seem like you are actually living in a world. Also, I think there is too much focus on combat and killing X to get Y. Whether it be dungeons, battlegrounds or just plain and simple quests. Combat seems to be the only thing modern MMO's focus on. I would like to enjoy a game that had combat but also branched out a bit and added other options that didnt solely involve all around swinging a sword or firing a phaser.
SWG delivered on this and still does to a point. You had entire professions that didn't require you to kill anything but gave you the option to develop your character around crafting or entertaining. There was also little extra's such as the hotels where you could gamble if you so chose. It actually felt like a world your character was living in.
Archeage seems to be going that little bit further by giving players the ability to write their own books in game and then sell them to other players. There was also talk of cartography where players can explore parts of the world and then sell their maps to other players.
While these features alone don't make a game they certainly branch out away from the narrow tunnel that is solely combat and I think thats the problem with MMO's today. Every game has combat and very little else to offer. When you have 50 to 100 MMO's that all offer combat and not much else then no wonder people are getting bored with them.
I think the moment when devs stop solely focussing on instances, combat and kill X to get Y quests then that will be the day when MMO's start getting better.
Comments
For me it was the non combat features like an deep crafting system, housing and fishing. Plus for me class base games are all shallow.
Nothing.
The simple fact is that most folks that’s are playing mmo's have been doing so for many years (simply put, we’re bored). The first mmo I've ever played was WoW (4 years worth), to me was great because it was my first. Now; however, it bores my to death. I've tried just about every mmo out (new and old) and while many have in-depth features, none have all.
Yes, I'm one of many still looking for an in-depth mmo. The problem today is three fold. First, like I stated above, most players are bored with current builds. Second, everyone’s idea of in-depth is different (we'll get into what that means for me below) and third, Devs simply want to make a game that will make money (not the greatest game ever made)(I know that doesn't make since because if they made the greatest game ever made, it would make the most money but you have to remember most Dev's are restarted).
So what does in-depth mean to me:
First and foremost, it has to be realistic (not real life, just believable - talking frogs? Really?
Most mmo's both new and old have quests (mainly to keep you busy and progress). The problems with this is I have to go kill 10 rats (ya I know, I went there), then the guy behind me has to kill 10 rats and so on and so on. Why? Where do all these rats keep coming from? What's the point if they are going to just respawn? To the point: it's not in-depth because anything you do has no purpose or outcome for the game (Yes I know there are games out that have done well to fix this issue but they lack other in-depth features).
Environment. Most lack an environment to makes you feel your there. No clouds? If you do have clouds, they don’t move. If you do have clouds that move, there is no wind (sounds that go with). What, we have clouds that move and wind but now to weather (doesn’t rain / snow). And if you are lucky and get moving clouds, winds and weather, somehow high winds don’t slow you down, rainwater doesn’t puddle up and snow doesn’t accumulate. Again, the point is: it’s not believable.
Well, I’m going to stop here because the list of why games don’t feel indepth can and will turn into a book.
I think its because the previous MMO's didnt have the large audiences of WoW like proportions so they were more niche. They had far less hand holding, and things took alot more time and relied far more on the community then the Developers. You can call it grindy because yes if you aren't enjoying repeating some action in an MMO, you are THEN grinding, if you are enjoying it well then the thought doesn't even come up does it. The niche like status of these MMO's allowed them to go into depth of the areas that THEIR players enjoyed, they didn't try to catch every type of player with the same net, so while there game may have had a very indepth crafting system, its PvP was probably fairly bland compared to DaOC.
Simply put, MMO's weren't trying to be designed for a One size fits all, business model back then, they are now, and requiring more money to invest and start up, and having larger target audiences really hurts the developers chances of being able to focus in any one area because they don't want to turn off a contrasting audience. (I.E. PvE raiders contrast with PvPers) etc etc.
Having other forms of gameplay is NOT depth. It is broad.
Is its combat mechanics as complex as that of WOW? I played EQ for a year and UO beta (hated that game) and their combat mechanics are no where close to the depth of WOW (in terms of procs, CDs, resource management ... even different form of CCs .. although EQ emphasize CC a bit more).
All you can really say to any of these posts no matter which they are is that some people have different tastes and likes and thus the problem with everyone wanting one maker to make their ultimate game...
" You can make all of the people happy some of the time and some of people happy all of the time but you can never make all of the people happy all of the time."
Unfortunately I didn't have the chance to participate in the older classic MMOs (ie. EQ, UO, SWG pre CU) when they were in their prime, so my knowledge of them is all second-hand.
So with that disclaimer, here is where I think one of the major differences may be.
Endgame.
Based on what I've been told and what I've read, "endgame" was not an element in those games. When you don't have an "endgame", you have a lot more freedom in development. You don't have to make it so players can get to endgame quickly and not get bored before they get there. You don't have to worry about sufficient endgame content. You don't have to worry about class balance for endgame. You can make content a lot more challenging, because it's all optional. And becuase the content is more challenging, it takes players longer to get through it and it lasts a lot longer. (Has anyone ever completed all the content available to them in EQ?) There is no gear you *have* to get to do "endgame" content. There's no dungeons people HAVE to be able to beat. You don't have to have efficient ways to level. You don't have to have quest hubs. All of these things are open to whatever creativity the game developers have to offer. And most importantly, the entire game is "the game", not just endgame.
Anyone who has played one or more of those games care to weigh in on this?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Well lol I never got to play some of those either. I do however play EQ2. One thing I have found with it is there are always new expansions coming out and yes you can choose whether or not to participate in raiding and dungeons or not. You don't HAVE to get the gear and such unless you choose to play your game that way. I totally enjoy doing dungeons sometimes and hey if someone wants to help me get into a raid or something all the more fun too, but I don't HAVE to. There are enough other things to do in the game to keep a person busy for a long time. Chrono mentoring is a blast and gives high level players a chance to help lower levels as well. You can even do world raids not jsut instanced and I love that you just go where it is going to start and the whole server puts together the raid and everyone joins in for some fun and actually some pretty nice gear at that if you would like some decent stats.
All I know is that based on these things and not trying to beat endgame I totally enjoy EQ2. I don't feel stressed out and I play it the way I want to play it not how someone else tells me I have to. Which in some games I have played people say you have a choice but you don't. Everything is main-streamlined so bad that there is no where else to go but to the end and do end content and you have no choice in the matter because there is nothing else to do period but end content. 
I saw someone playing EQ1 once and the graphics scared me so bad that I almost never started playing EQ2 boy was I glad when someone told me the difference. ( Some people say graphics do not matter but when I look at a game that doesn't even have as good of graphics as console games I have an issue with that especially if I am paying to play all of the time and not just buying it straight out.) They also told me there were no such things as quests and you had to kill mobs just to be able to level.
However I found that to be somewhat of a folly as well. I was told later that when EQ1 originally came out that it had no quests but that quests were added in later. I guess the person I saw playing was behind the times.
One thing EQ2 has done is not make it impossible for them to add storyline they did not just stick themselves with one straight forward line of story and have been able to add throughout the years. Myself I don't mind semi-streamlined quests as long as there is enough content to keep me busy. As well as a good crafting system.
No offense, but I don't think you understood my post.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
This is exactly the problem.
No I understood your point I was just trying to give a different point of view then some people get about games with end content such as EQ2. No WoW does not impress me what so ever and I tried the Rift trial and was not impressed at all. What my point was is that there is a way to do it with end content as well. You just have to put enough in for everyone to enjoy. A lot of different angles and sideline things to do. That way no one gets left out and everyone enjoys the game. Not just one kind of player.
And I disagree with the thing about if you have a big audience not having enough time to focus on everything that is why the bigger games have seperate teams for each angle of the game. And that is what it takes for the ultimate online game is a lot of money a lot of degrees and a lot of different teams for each area of expertise of the game. You just have to have the backing. I have tried some of hte recommended games for crafting that people have said are really good and I don't understand what they see in them there is no RPG at all. So you see there is a reason to make a game that has all angles is because if you don't you don't have enough money to pay those seperate teams that it takes. THis kind of stuff costs no matter how you look at it and so the businesses have to make something that everyone likes they don't have much choice or they would go broke.
It's called inflation over the years that has caused this not the makers choice. And there is a big audience for having games that have everything so no one gets burned out.
I would argue what is written in yellow. I'm going to refrence WoW (because exept for FFXI, FFXIV..I havn't spent any in-depth time in a "modern MMO")
But in wow you say it leads to a more sculpted and stratigic game play. WoW is anything but stratigic, You have a set area you level, untill you reach a certain level, then you hop on the tredmill do the exact same thing as everyone else earing "epic gear" and then about the time you start collecting that gear...blam, blizzard comes out with an expansion pack.
Anyways....just doesn't seem... creative, or stratigic.
And the first arguement "forced gameplay" well.....its a game. if you want to play it then play it. It cracks me up people who buy a MMO, and then are like "no I dont' want to play the way it was designed...change it or i'm leaving"
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No, you didn't get my point. My point is that any time you have a real "end-game" per se, all the prior content becomes mostly meaningless no matter how varied your end-game content is, particularly when your end-game content requires certain gear. In this regard, EQ2 is no different from WoW or Rift. EQ was designed to take much much longer to get to level cap, and (to my knowledge) has no "end-game" specific content that requires any particular gear to do.
So I guess what I'm saying is the difference is two-fold: a focus on end-game content and gear grind.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Ok well you can say strategic for WoW but I Have to disagree. How is watching a meter for dps strategic? Or watching a meter to see who can throw out the most HPS? Which it ends up coming down to once the fights are learned is the meters in WoW.
As far as Cata goes. Strategy at times does you no good in the dungeons because there are a few bosses that are nothing but pure luck of oh crap the dragon breathed on everyone of us because he decided to turn this way or that way. Some of the bosses yes were strategy but if you play with people who actually know how to play again it is all about meters not strategy. Right off the bat after Cata came out and I was geared for ther heroics I pugged one of the heroics and we one shotted every boss in there simply by having HIGH dps and a healer with HIGH hps. The guy who actually had done it before when we got to the bosses said these are all dps fights so get it up there and we'll be fine. Other than that one of the bosses is simply the healer knowing what n eeded to be dispelled. There was no strategy about it what so ever once the healer knew to dispel it.
If there is any strategy at all once you learn the fight it becomes so easy and repetative that pretty soon there is a burn out issue then "oh well no more gear in these for me why am I still doing them? I am tired of this let me out of here!!"
Then once you are sick and tired of the repetativeness you start farming to make money and if you know what you are doing have the best mounts money can buy within less than 3 months and that is even with digging the recipe up yourself. Once you reach that point you have to wait for the next content patch so then you are farmimg trash for gear because maybe you don't play with all of the ones who know how to play because they tend to be total jerks and you can't even stand to be around them because all they do is sit there and downgrade other people to make themselves feel more high and mighty like they are better than everyone else so no raids because for myself I can not stand to be around people like that. I grew up getting treated like they treat other people and it sickens me.
And yes I raided with some of the really good ones who had played for a long time and in wotlk something about them changed and pretty soon the only time you ever saw them log in was when they were raiding and they just seemed more distant somehow. You didn't go out and do things together like you did before and Wotlk was when the meters were the HUGE thing as well as the GS addon. When someone was putting together a raid it was like you had to give them a resume just to be able to get into their raid which in turn took all of the fun out of it and then all you played was a job not a game anymore and no relaxation at all. Nothing for dowtime for a sideline to keep you from getting sick and tired after doing every quest in the game and having nothing more to do and because it was so centered around end game no one even wanted to go with you to get old raid achievements or anything like that.
Then the lfg system came out even worse by like 50 times as to how the communtiy started acting and treating each other. So I would much rather play a game that is more balanced then to feel like I am stuck in a rut because all there is left for me to do is to go raid with a bunch of people who no matter what age they are act like teenagers.
Of course this is my opinion on what you had to say about making a game which is only concentrated on one thing instead of everything in the game. Because that is exactly what is happening in WoW they are only concentrating on one thing nowadays and it really sucks because all of the fun has been taken out of it for me.
First off, I think we were saying the same thing^
The resume was the actual reason I left WoW, I played a Hunter (I know people always made fun of them) it was back in the days of BC, Anyways I always had a "owl" pet, he was awesome. and I loved playing with that one pet, I had blues and a couple of purples, and just because I used a Owl instead of a lion people wouldn't raid with me. I got turned down so many times. And finally I was like "this is just stupid" I mean. everyone had a certain build for each class...and if they varried, you didn't get parties.
Another example is I started playing after one of my friends played for a while, so he was at 70 back when I was at like level 30, so I kinda had a mentor through-out the game, One thing that was always previlent, before I would start grouping for a certain dungon or somthing he would be like "oh you need this gear first" "oh you need to crawl this dungon to get this gear before you can crawl this dungon"
My overall point is it was VERY specific on what EXACTLY you needed, and if you tried to very a little bit from the path people wouldn't want to raid/party with you.
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a page or two ago people started talking about timesinkes vs. faucets of the game. And quite honestly I think the argument voids itself, I mean "timesink vs...a game" a game is made to be a FUN time sink, So I think the arguement should be: Fun time sinks VS. unfun time sinks.
And here is my responce: Without the "unfun" time sinks, the reward is not near as cool.
Example: I played FFXI for around 4 years (And in my opinion it was THE BEST mmo ever made, and yes I know you probably disagree...and thats fine) Anyways, One of the things that made that game great was how difficult it was, yes it was frusterating....but rewarding. Nothing beats leveling up after a all night party, grinding away for endless hours. Getting to know people in your group. In FFXI they had gold crafting, I only knew of 1 person that had capped goldcrafting. And he was like a god, it took him close to a year to do it.
But if you look at WoW, MOST people have: 3-6 char. capped at 85, and 3 of those chars. have crafting skills capped. For instance, My friend who had been playing awhile, wen't from 0-350 (cap at the time) with engineering in a single night, he had enough gold...how is that epic/fun? who wants to be a crafter if everone can craft already.
So I repeat my statement,
Timesinks/risk = reward
easy to play/streemlined = game that you only stick with for 6 months
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Cost for development was much lower.
WoW's succsess was not known by financial backers.
Game creation was a passion more than a proffesion.
One thing not considered an awful lot is that the MMO market is now saturated with high quality games. Despite the slathering rants of disgruntled coke swilling spoilt brats, who think every dev has got it wrong, the current crop of games really are of a high quality.
As an old git who played EQ on release, trust me, whilst being a great game for its time it had its problems. Hitting a snake or rat... it went Ouch! in a distincly human voice. The characters had oblong heads, I spent 2 hours in the Karana's on a quest... and got 2 copper for it. But!
It was new, UO not withstanding, EQ was the first first person 3D popular MMO RPG. I still remember being staggered by the fact I was in a group in Blackburrow with an American, a Frenchman, a Canadian, a German and myself (Brit) playing in a fantasy world, all from our own homes. Grouping and getting to know strangers whilst working together in a common cause was unbelievably good fun... and something new to most of us.
Remember your first kiss and fumble, or your first car or motorbike? It was an awesome new experience. I wouldn't dare drive that old nail now, even if I could... and the same for the car / motorbike.
A lot of gamers of today expect instant gratification, Devs try to provide. Then they get bored. If it's not hard to achieve, then it maybe wasn't worth achieving.
I currently play Rift... yeah! I,ve read all the posts, I know. But I enjoy it. It really is a quality game. Like most modern MMO's it does suffer from the fact that it was made easy mode, which does not allow people the time to get to know and grow fond of their toons. Most now wish to rush to endgame, to strut their stuff. Fair play, I dont believe anyone should dictate anothers playstyle. Problem is, it does impact on game design.
In real life, take it from this dribbling old git who is too slow for PVP, dont rush to Endgame... all you'll find is a polished wooden box.
In older games it took a lot more time to accomplish anything. Experience was very hard to come by and you had very limited scripted content (like quests) to hold your hand through the levelling, instead you were forced to farm mobs often in groups. You spend few levels in one area before moving to a next. You might visit a city to get supplies and skills, but mostly you just grinded mobs. The worst example of this is probably Lineage 2. Games before WoW were really designed for more hardcore gamers, who had time to spend a lot of time with the game whereas new games are aimed towards casual gamers. And soloability in mind.
My game time is limited these days, so I am really not looking forward to old-style MMORPGs anymore.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Didn't read a single post in this thread, but I can tell you that people's enjoyment comes down to one thing. Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
Older MMOs had depth because the players gave depth. The MMO industry is not flooded with insta-gamers that have no imagination and can't create systems for themselves to enjoy the games given to them. Older games had people workign together and creating their own parties and events. Now, everyone is just waiting for the developers to give them something instead of comunicating with their peers and creating something for themselves.
Don't blame the developers for their design, blame the players for their lack of imagination, spirit of cooperation, and overall dickishness to their fellow man.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
What surprises me is the fact that this genre kept simplifiying everything with every new title released. They also kept scratching older features/concept or rehashing them with a shallow clone.
Example, the Faction System from EverQuest compared to the Repuation system from WoW. That is a feature from EQ that was so good, made shallower and linear in WoW.
Why can't a publisher "expand" on the old school MMORPG? go back to what these games were about and expand on that. We have plenty of colorful/retarded MMORPGs how about someone make a decent MMORPG for a change huh? just as a goof? It might work this time???
I solidly share your opinion in this, game mechanics aside, their ment to make money. We can all bark from the side lines, but put yourself in a designers shoes. They just aren't given the artistic freedom to make good cames, rather where being fed 20% game and the rest commercial content.
Let's brake this down Yo Gabba Gabba style. Your S.A. is well informed and has truth in all areas. But with this information I draw a conclusion, rather than simply know it. Obviously Blizzard is attempting to satisy a rediculously huge audience i.e. everyone. But most importantly, they are aiming at the general population. Now what would cause such an inscentive, I don't even need to build a reason as to why it would be (Subscription 14.99). Has anyone figured 10,000,000 multiplied by 14.99, that's a lot of Snapple. Speaking of snapple, let's parallel our precious gameing industry with soda. Their are differant flavors of soda, because people have differant tastes. No flavor could encompass the desire of every person, but their are flavors more popular than others. The MMO genre is a very new thing and WOW is a great example of how big our industry is. But WOW is not the industry, it is just simply our coke. When cooperations start understanding that a good sized portion play WOW for lack of competition. Competitors will be made, for God sakes I know I'm not the only one looking for options. You can ask the 1.5 million who bought warhammer including me. WOW's butter is spread way to thin for my taste and I wouldn't doubt that millions agree with me. If your trying to satisy everyones desire for content, a good portion of us are going to be left with a sour taste. So really, I do beleive a mmo will be molded to fit a narrower audience. But when and how I don't know.
Apart from Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies there were no old MMO's with more depth of gameplay. Only some players who are stuck in the past think most of them were.
Most MMO's were and are very simple. And even with MMO's that had complexity, it was only complex for a few. For example, I loved Anarchy Online, but I dont like how ppl always act as if its such a complex game. Back then most gamers also simply relied upon guides written by a few. So most of those Anarchy Online players were also playing a simple game, because others already did the work of finding stuff out for them. Same goes for SWG btw. All those copycats claiming that they are playing this complex game which makes them so elite, are just hypocrite.
Main difference with now is that designers took out the most horrific forms of timesinks. Like spawncamping or ridiculous waiting times that are only workable if everyone is willing to play hours on each day.
They didnt have more depth of gameplay just better communities to create depth with rather than pewpew solo fest where nobody utters a word.
For me depth is all about character development and how you actually live and breath in the world you are part of. All most modern MMO's now seem to be instanced to high heaven and could easily be the equivalent of multiplayer console games. It just doesn't seem like you are actually living in a world. Also, I think there is too much focus on combat and killing X to get Y. Whether it be dungeons, battlegrounds or just plain and simple quests. Combat seems to be the only thing modern MMO's focus on. I would like to enjoy a game that had combat but also branched out a bit and added other options that didnt solely involve all around swinging a sword or firing a phaser.
SWG delivered on this and still does to a point. You had entire professions that didn't require you to kill anything but gave you the option to develop your character around crafting or entertaining. There was also little extra's such as the hotels where you could gamble if you so chose. It actually felt like a world your character was living in.
Archeage seems to be going that little bit further by giving players the ability to write their own books in game and then sell them to other players. There was also talk of cartography where players can explore parts of the world and then sell their maps to other players.
While these features alone don't make a game they certainly branch out away from the narrow tunnel that is solely combat and I think thats the problem with MMO's today. Every game has combat and very little else to offer. When you have 50 to 100 MMO's that all offer combat and not much else then no wonder people are getting bored with them.
I think the moment when devs stop solely focussing on instances, combat and kill X to get Y quests then that will be the day when MMO's start getting better.