The lack of large, greedy publishers is what made earlier MMOs deeper. The same thing happened to MMOs that happened to music after the 70s: the suits that were bankrolling the creativity just grew too enamored with min/maxing their own accounts.
Older games were written to be games. Newer games are written to make money.
That is the truth if i've ever heard it. Games today are less about PLAY than ever. The people who enjoy these games tends to be the ones that abuse the systems and or accept the systems.
WoW for instance the only people I know who thoroughly ENJOY playing the game are either:
A) Engage in RMT, Botting, and any form of Griefing they can muster. or
Are part of a dedicated end game raiding group with set schedules mandatory raids and lots of rules.
Sure there are plenty others that play the game, but I hardly ever see them get as excited about it as these to parties. The problem is the neither of them really engage in the PLAY that was created for them.
In the case of group A) I see them get excited all the time, They practically brag when they get banned and have to create new accounts and bot their way back up to the top. But they are playing 0% of the game. Their bots take them straight to the end game in a matter of days, then the rest of the time is spent griefing and completely ignoring any and all content.
Then there are the players in Group , and again... they tend to power level straight to end game (sometimes legally sometimes not) and then sit there doing the same things over. I see them get excited about the game, because they got that piece of armor they are aiming for and it excites them. But.. again... a HUGE chunk of the game is getting skipped via PL, and then the part they are playing.. they are hardly playing. It's almost like a job. I see them get just as furious. Not because of the game but because of some newb who ruined their run. These people enjoy the game, but if anyone who isn't a hardcore raider has ever tried to play with these people. They suck the life out of the game. Everything is cold, tactical, pecise, and the smallest thing can bring down the overexagerated wrath of the entire group.
There are 2 things Current games lack 1) Investment and 2) Failure. WoW pretty much garunteed a return on investment and the only way it will fail is if someone screws up.
Risk and Reward was what older games had that current games dont. It is proven science that the more someone invests in a particular objective the more it will mean to them. Even in the event of failure, after the initial shock wears off their determination NOT to fail will increase and so will the perception that the objective is worth the extra investment. The overall pleasure when the goal is reached is maximized. Even the deep games of today are timid in enforcing any sort of real risk reward system. For fear of losing a player because the risk and loss was too great. So, they remove it not to create a great game but to capitalize on the income.
New MMOs are made to be games. Old MMOs were created as alternate reality.
MMO players are i think.. generally more creative thinkers than those who don't.. dreamers maybe.. but.. imagination is a powerful thing.. especially if we're allowed to use it.. .. lately it seems that game developers don't seem to trust their players.. im glad CCP are not in that category
The lack of large, greedy publishers is what made earlier MMOs deeper. The same thing happened to MMOs that happened to music after the 70s: the suits that were bankrolling the creativity just grew too enamored with min/maxing their own accounts.
This is the problem with many modern gamers and music lovers, cynicism, I have a large music collection of great music from small and big record labels, from the 1930's to the present, all of it very creative and fun, I have also played and still do play games that are creative and fun its just you have to look for the great creative projects out there and just not expect them to be plopped into your lap with no effort. As with all entertainment spheres there are a few classics released every decade but the vast majority is just good honest fun and the notion that all game developers are greedy evildoers is just laughable to me.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Quest help (markers, more brief text, better grouping of quests/hubs)
The gameplay is more focussed
Graphics (dur)
accessibility
Areas that where way better before 2003:
Gameplay variety
lore (depends on the game)
support for long term play
community (in some very specific aspects, namely friendliness and support but not in communication)
My biggest gripe with modern MMO's (post 03) are that they seem to focus too much on a few elements of an MMO and don't flesh out their games enough. I seem to recall far more MMO's in 03 where I could do things other than just kill mobs. Yes most new games have crafting too but it's often an afterthought or just really really minor and insignificant. MMO's no longer feel like worlds but simply (terrible) extensions of single player RPG's.
If I wanted a good story I sure as hell wont look towards an MMO first, nor will I look for one if engaging combat is what I am after. Everything modern MMO's try to do is done far far better in other genres and they need to stop and realise that they can't just focus on a few aspects of the genre and get them 110% down pat (which they never do anyway) rather than creating new ways to engage in the world they create.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Lets not overlook the playerbase. It's amazing how much more social and helpful everyone was back then. You knew most people that played were more so than not just like you. I actually enjoyed helping and meeting new people and just talking.
I'm the complete opposite now in newer MMO's. With the huge influx on non traditional MMO fans, i find myself staying away and ignoring as many players as possible and only doing things in game with people i've known for a while. I barely speak with anyone not in my guild and i assume they're there to grief me in some way.
It's amazing how many similar things MMO's have with the music industry. The more mainstream things get, the more they suck. I remember what it was like being one of a select few that was part of a movement with a local band from the start. I felt part of something. It was about the music. Now it's about the business.
If you want the mmo industry to continue to develop old school mmos you need to start speaking with your wallet, and no I don't mean refusing to buy modern mmos.
Pick an existing mmo that has the design features you want in an old school mmo and convince half a million of your old school mmo buddys to sub and play actively for 6+ months, you'll see old school mmos poping out of the woodwork.
Why, because you just gave some developer 45 million + box sales.
Personally though, I don't think there's half a million that want an old school mmo. I think you'd be lucky to find more than a few thousand and that's just not worth a big developer's time and resources to make.
Lets not overlook the playerbase. It's amazing how much more social and helpful everyone was back then. You knew most people that played were more so than not just like you. I actually enjoyed helping and meeting new people and just talking.
I'm the complete opposite now in newer MMO's. With the huge influx on non traditional MMO fans, i find myself staying away and ignoring as many players as possible and only doing things in game with people i've known for a while. I barely speak with anyone not in my guild and i assume they're there to grief me in some way.
The way the games are built is also a huge factor.
When you don't promote socialization, and instead give more weight to convenience, what else could happen? It's not like most of us live in a society where we'd voluntarily interact with strangers without an agenda. If you give us an agenda, we will. And we are most likely better off for it.
Yet the developers, thinking that the current trend is the way to go, aren't helping. Non traditional MMO's attract non traditional MMO fans. Yet everything traditional is seen as "thing of the past" or "dated".
It's also hard to give a shit about the world when the developers clearly do not either. Sure they develop these cool dynamic events that shape the world, but that doesn't mean you give a crap about what is actually going on. At the same time, in a game without these things you may still care a lot more because there is a context that doesn't feel tackled on at the last minute to justify this cool super dynamic next-gen event's existence.
Where's the mystery? Where is the adventure? Why am I not craving to find out more about the world and see what's behind the seas on a distant continent teased by the devs? Why is everything laid out to me in advance and yet feel so cheap and overdone in an effort to make the game seem "epic"?
This disease plagues most new MMO's in existence. Gameplay is irrelevant if you don't give a shit.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Some folks consider it a challenge to learn how to orient themselves in a game world (with the proper tools). I prefer a map, but it does add depth to a game to have to learn to use a compass to navigate the world.
Is downtime, delays, and long queues creating depth?
Downtime definitely adds depth, because almost all MMO's that employ it provide tools which players must learn or acquire to allow them to minimize them to their most efficient level. (its part of the gameplay). EVE woudn't be the same game with instant travel, and DAOC had a certain magic in their downtime between fight system and the balance it created when certain classes were available to help keep it down. Groups learned to fight effciently, preserving health and mana in order to keep downtimes low. It was an artform and a skill, and good groups learned to do it well. There was also the added bonus of increased time for socialization which adds depth to any MMO IMO.
Is forced grouping creating depth?
Of course it does. It makes being able to properly build a good team another important skill players have to develop and grow, and makes one become far more social in order to obtain a good group. I'm pretty much a loner, but in DAOC I had to learn to become everyone's friend because my Infiltratror brought little to any groups utility so I got in based on how well I interacted in the game world.
What you saw as timesinks in earlier games (which perhaps they were) served a very useful purpose and I don't think it was an accident on the part of the developers. For me it made the older games much more challenging and engaging and these are some of the features that have been largely eliminated from modern games.
Time sinks were just that time sinks. There is nothing challenging about doing something which requires a long time to accomplish or complete. The challenge is in activity itself not the time of amount required to do that activity. if that is what you consider challenge i am glad the MMOS have moved away from that philosphy. But a lot of asian F2P MMOS still use that design i am sure you would love it.
Lets not overlook the playerbase. It's amazing how much more social and helpful everyone was back then. You knew most people that played were more so than not just like you. I actually enjoyed helping and meeting new people and just talking.
I'm the complete opposite now in newer MMO's. With the huge influx on non traditional MMO fans, i find myself staying away and ignoring as many players as possible and only doing things in game with people i've known for a while. I barely speak with anyone not in my guild and i assume they're there to grief me in some way.
It's amazing how many similar things MMO's have with the music industry. The more mainstream things get, the more they suck. I remember what it was like being one of a select few that was part of a movement with a local band from the start. I felt part of something. It was about the music. Now it's about the business.
Most f2p games support socialisation by having mentor systems, group events and benefits for being in a guild, usually at the start they encourage you to build a friends list and work together. Games from the Orient are always about playing together and being social, how many western MMO's have ingame marriage? but many here just focus on US/European games that have lost that element.
Everybody was a n00b once in the lives and you are actively ignoring them and lableling them non-traditional MMO players but how can they be if MMO tradition by itself no longer exists? or you are not willing to educate them, makes it a bit tough to be a young n00b traditional MMO player doesn't it?
As for music I refer to my previous post, but will say there are 1000's of quality original albums released every year in 100's of genres and thats the way the MMO space has gone with many different types of MMO's for us to pick from now from TBS games to Ship Warfare games to Classic WoW styled themeparks to skill based crafting sandboxes pick ya poison its out there if you look for it. Expecting a AAA MMO company to realease your perfect game in unreasonable just like 75% of my record collection (yes I collect vinyl albums) is from small independent labels not the big four.
If EQ, AC, DAOC,UO were released today in the exact same state they were at release I can guarantee with todays knowledgable players the bugs and wonky gameplay would be pulled to peices and they would get nowhere near 100,000's of players that they did, ignorance is bliss and thats how they were successful.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I will give one part of old school MMORPG gameplay that newer ones in general just don't have.
Can you dedicate your character and playtime to nothing but non-combat stuff and still have alot of fun and enough things to keep you busy if you so chose that route?
There was a time in MMORPG gaming that players logged in all the time and never lifted a weapon, yet they had their kicks.
This leads into something MMORPGs used to strive for: A virtual world to do anything. I believe that was the aim with old school MMORPGs.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Following on from my last thread I've seen the comment about older MMO's having more depth of gameplay many times but no real explanation and wonder is that true? I have to admit that I found World Of Warcrft quite shallow as it really to me seemed to just revolve around quest grinding, now even though many of the quests and lore in WoW were interesting and fun after 10 months of that without really any restbite it became tedious for me. In EQ2, LoTRO, Aion and especially EVE, Vanguard and POTBS in the p2p arena I found that these games had other things to do, instead of quest grinding, like strategic combat, good economies, good social tools, housing, deeper and more useful crafting, politics and diplomacy systems with much better character customisation with all combat spells/moves being useful. Even in some f2p games like UWO, Jade Dynasty, Atlantica, etc... we have great customisation of characters, meaningful PvP with contested areas creating politics between the big guilds, decent crafting systems, loads of social tools and even beasteries/knowledge books for us to compile which WoW lacks.
My only thoughts are that people seem to think WoW is the ONLY modern MMO and don't look further into the vast array of MMO's that exist or seem to want to revel in their past memories of great times by putting down modern MMO's with this throwaway line that really is never backed up. Have I misconstrued what is meant by depth of gameplay? because I see plenty of deep MMO's on the market where you actions count or have storylines that put you in the centre of an epic tale. I must admit though that games like Warhammer, AOC and Rift really have not got deep systems to keep you enthralled with the game and thats a shame but over my many years playing video games, 30+ years, there have only been a few great deep games (in context to the 10000's of games that have been made) that have left a lasting mark on my memory and the vast majority are just fun diversions. Having the expectation that every game will be deep and challenging is a tall order and one that is not achieved with today's or yesterday's games as there were many simplistic games in the past its just those games have fallen from memory.
If you keep on expecting a AAA MMO company is going plop the perfect deep MMO in your lap you will be eternally disappointed but lower expectation a bit and there is a world of depth outside of the main AAA world. I agree with the thread about modern MMO's doing fine its just many people around here are just ignoring them.
Cal.
The one thing I see that people seem to be missing in this post is that people see WoW as the "only" modern day MMO when it is not. EQ2 has been on longer and is still putting out expansions and more content than WoW ever has. And yes most definately WoW has a burn out issue because of not enough sideline stuff. Everyone I know that plays WoW HAS to take breaks for long periods of time or they can not keep playing it.
Another thing is that something that was said in one of the lower posts struck my eye. Good social tools in WoW. Since when? As far as guilds ok but only if you are in a guild and have very close nit friends do you get to have a good social network on there. And here is why WoW does not have good social tools. LFG did away with people on same servers learning to work together so that when they get in a raid together they know how one another works. it also made tradechat useless for anything other than a mainstream troll, and gold spam line. No one has used tradechat for actually trading much in years other than hackers. They log in on a level one toon and spam for you to go to a site and spend real money on things that they hacked out of the game. Basically anyone can get anything they want for a price. If someone askes a simple question in chat on WoW they get treated like an idiot by everyone, hardly anyone can just give a straight out answer and help the person instead of belittling them.
I never played an MMO before WoW and it amazed me jsut to see what was in it. I see everyone saying why can't anyone make a good MMO anymore when some of the older ones have kept up with WoW and have more viabiliity for all players, more sideline content for everyone who enjoys gaming.
Another thing I found with WoW the only socializing is in dungeons and raids otherwise it is all solo content. I can honestly say the latest expansion from EQ2 I am not soloing the quests of coarse I was not in all raid gear going into it but in Cata as soon as you hit the first area you were out of raid gear and soloing anyway. I soloed everything in Cataclysm outside of dungeons on more than one toon. Sure some classes were more difficult to do it on but it was still all soloable.
I thought MMO meant "Massive Multiplayer online" for the reason that you don't have to do everything alone and that it was supposed to be for a social network.
And Yes I have loremaster on WoW and yeah I had some fun but as soon as I had loremaster the fun faded more and more as people in WoW only seemed to have one thing on their minds to do and that is to beat end content as fast as they can and get the best gear right now because if they don't they will get behind everyone else in gear and then the next raids and such will come out and they will be behind because some of the other guilds just go in and wipe things up like a mop. Not ever taking a moment to breath and smell the roses outside of dungeons and raids.
I have left WoW now and no I don't play the newest MMO because I don't find that it is for me so instead I went backward to find what I liked and where I fit in at. A game where even if you have a small guild you can still progress in certain ways that other guilds might progress in differently. No one is left out and there are tons of quests and you can choose to do them or raid or whatever you and the community you are playing with enjoy the most. Not feeling pressured to do something that you might not want to do. And still having a social network to where if you need help or want to help others those options are always available.
So ultimately and this is coming from someone who has played almost all of WoW's copntent I would have to totally agree with the OP in this thread. And believe me I loved WoW for a long time and would not say anything I have not come to feel myself about it and have witnessed/taken part in.
All I know is that I am actually playing an MMO that is older than WoW and seems to be so much better that it is not even funny. As well as it still puts out an expansion a year with more content updates throughout the year than WoW as far as all things in the game are concerned not just dungeons and raids. And the quests are much mroe in depth. In fact I like the fact that some quests require older quests to have been completed to finish the latest one and some that is may require may be as much as 50 or more levels lower than what max level is. And that the system to help people do this rewards anyone and everyone in some way or another.
Originally posted by quixadhal Older games were written to be games. Newer games are written to make money.
Uh, no.
Older games were made to make money too.
You see, in the real world businesses need money. So, if Origin Systems didnt make money off Ultima Online they would have shut it down. They wouldnt have kept it going, losing money until eventual company bankruptcy, out of the goodness of their hearts and their love of the game.
But, here in wacky forum land it seems companies can pay employees and run servers with dreams and wishes.
Some folks consider it a challenge to learn how to orient themselves in a game world (with the proper tools). I prefer a map, but it does add depth to a game to have to learn to use a compass to navigate the world.
Is downtime, delays, and long queues creating depth?
Downtime definitely adds depth, because almost all MMO's that employ it provide tools which players must learn or acquire to allow them to minimize them to their most efficient level. (its part of the gameplay). EVE woudn't be the same game with instant travel, and DAOC had a certain magic in their downtime between fight system and the balance it created when certain classes were available to help keep it down. Groups learned to fight effciently, preserving health and mana in order to keep downtimes low. It was an artform and a skill, and good groups learned to do it well. There was also the added bonus of increased time for socialization which adds depth to any MMO IMO.
Is forced grouping creating depth?
Of course it does. It makes being able to properly build a good team another important skill players have to develop and grow, and makes one become far more social in order to obtain a good group. I'm pretty much a loner, but in DAOC I had to learn to become everyone's friend because my Infiltratror brought little to any groups utility so I got in based on how well I interacted in the game world.
What you saw as timesinks in earlier games (which perhaps they were) served a very useful purpose and I don't think it was an accident on the part of the developers. For me it made the older games much more challenging and engaging and these are some of the features that have been largely eliminated from modern games.
Time sinks were just that time sinks. There is nothing challenging about doing something which requires a long time to accomplish or complete. The challenge is in activity itself not the time of amount required to do that activity. if that is what you consider challenge i am glad the MMOS have moved away from that philosphy. But a lot of asian F2P MMOS still use that design i am sure you would love it.
Missed my point completely eh? The challenge is in learning how to efficiently manage and minimize the downtime, it actually takes skill and brains to learn how to do it well.
FTP's put grind in for grinds sake and its not the same thing at all. Fortunately there is still EVE in which it is still important to practice these skills.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I must concur with a few of my previous posters. Older games had more depth because the players did.
I hope thats sarcasm, cuz that just silliness.
All of these so called "mmo vets" that try to reason how much superior and intelligent they are than the "wow kiddies" now a days make me laugh, I'm sorry. I've met all types of people in mmo's, children, adults, teenagers, parents , and grandparents who have been in middle school to college, jobless, in the military, doctors, and retired. My point is... these vets need to get of their high horses, because your not somehow more intelligent or superior just because you found out about the genre earlier. The range of mmo players has grown, and you gotta live with it...and it doesn't make you better or have more "depth" than anybody.
And if your complaining about why modern mmo's are shallow, it's really not my problem, because there is many different types of mmo's. There is still mmo's that have depth, go play one of them, and let the people who just want to go home after a days work and relax in some themepark dungeon have their fun. Why do all of them have to be the way you like it?
It's the reason im usually subbed to two or three mmo's, sometimes i want to play a sandbox, sometimes i want to log in to a wow-ish game and que up for some harmless pvp.
Now, do I wish some high quality developer made a sandbox? Hell yes. Just give it time...archage is on the way, and hopefully more will follow.
The older MMO's were never really that much more deep. People just have a tendency to look back on things with fondness more. I remember for as much as I loved SWG back in the day, there was a lot of stuff in the game that was more of a hassle than fun.
You could also throw that at the end of all the other actual facets, like those described in this thread, of old school MMORPG gameplay that's superior than today's.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The older MMO's were never really that much more deep. People just have a tendency to look back on things with fondness more. I remember for as much as I loved SWG back in the day, there was a lot of stuff in the game that was more of a hassle than fun.
SWG, eh?
Can you name me a newer MMORPG that let you do as much as SWG did before SOE nuked it?
The game in its "good days" definitely had problems and criticisms (deservedly). But it definitely had other viable forms of gameplay (again, crafting), freedom in character building, etc. What other newer MMORPG let players totally immerse themselves in non-combat aspects for all their game time? Where crafters / merchants are just as important to the community and game as a combat-oriented type? EVE is the closest, but that game came out in '03 (same as SWG).
Not to mention an oustanding community SWG once had.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Some folks consider it a challenge to learn how to orient themselves in a game world (with the proper tools). I prefer a map, but it does add depth to a game to have to learn to use a compass to navigate the world.
Is downtime, delays, and long queues creating depth?
Downtime definitely adds depth, because almost all MMO's that employ it provide tools which players must learn or acquire to allow them to minimize them to their most efficient level. (its part of the gameplay). EVE woudn't be the same game with instant travel, and DAOC had a certain magic in their downtime between fight system and the balance it created when certain classes were available to help keep it down. Groups learned to fight effciently, preserving health and mana in order to keep downtimes low. It was an artform and a skill, and good groups learned to do it well. There was also the added bonus of increased time for socialization which adds depth to any MMO IMO.
Is forced grouping creating depth?
Of course it does. It makes being able to properly build a good team another important skill players have to develop and grow, and makes one become far more social in order to obtain a good group. I'm pretty much a loner, but in DAOC I had to learn to become everyone's friend because my Infiltratror brought little to any groups utility so I got in based on how well I interacted in the game world.
What you saw as timesinks in earlier games (which perhaps they were) served a very useful purpose and I don't think it was an accident on the part of the developers. For me it made the older games much more challenging and engaging and these are some of the features that have been largely eliminated from modern games.
Time sinks were just that time sinks. There is nothing challenging about doing something which requires a long time to accomplish or complete. The challenge is in activity itself not the time of amount required to do that activity. if that is what you consider challenge i am glad the MMOS have moved away from that philosphy. But a lot of asian F2P MMOS still use that design i am sure you would love it.
Missed my point completely eh? The challenge is in learning how to efficiently manage and minimize the downtime, it actually takes skill and brains to learn how to do it well.
FTP's put grind in for grinds sake and its not the same thing at all. Fortunately there is still EVE in which it is still important to practice these skills.
Totally agree. Those "time sinks" often were not time sinks but actually strategic elements of the MMO. Now, some games were designed to have a lot less down time than others, but notice the key point there: DESIGNED. Having down time in your game is fine, but it should serve a purpose. Likewise, having little to no downtime is also fine, as long as you implement another way for the character to achieve the goals downtime was used for, such as socialization.
I find most modern games miss the point and are more worried about graphics and mass appeal than they are about proper pacing and meaningful actions.
And that's another big one... your actions in-game - especially in PVP - need to be meaningful. Pirates of the Burning Sea, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE, Wurm Online, Shores of Hazeron, even Ultima Online seem to get it. Other games just throw you into arena matches. Now, for games where that is the entire point (Guild Wars) that's fine, but don't promise people "MEANINGFUL PVP!!!!11!11!ONEELEVEN" and then give us WoW Battlegrounds.
I might be alone on this but I don't think it had to do with "older games having more depth" but older games having somewhat less of a standard and, as a result, having more freedon to pursue and develop their game. I have to bring up WoW in this light because, love it or hate it, its the one mmo that is mostly familiar and some developers hate moving too far awar from the curve and creating a system that takes elements too far from what WoW has boasted and used. I'm not saying WoW is the progenitor of what should/shouldn't be in an mmo but rather some features it has used, whether they created it or not, are features that players are used to having and this does limit and impact what developers do.
At one level, we see this present in an mmo like FF14 which launched and still has no auction house in the game. That was and still is one of the biggest gripes players have complained about on and off. Granted its just one area but how many games have features that are taken above a standard auction house in mmo's? Eve online has a culmination of player and npc auctions and FF14 uses npc vendors to sell items for players.
I think the issue of game immersion and depth has created [and catered too] different expectations because player attitudes have changed. I know players like myself who, at cutscenes, like to watch it and get an idea of what's going on. Then there are others who keep hitting the "Enter" button and want to get out of the CS asap and move onto the next mission. Both sides consume content but in different directions and, in some ways, depth is effected as well. For myself game content and immersion is a priority; for the latter end-game content, items and rewards are the priority.You have to admit this is a catch-22 for developers: you can't create a system that always makes everyone happy but you know you have an issue when you get players who look not at progression and transition but rather "what can I do when I get to the end" or "what can I do at the highest levels?" and have to deal with the fact that there is only so much content. I'd also add given the priority endgame has nowadays too, with so much emphasis on the "higher levels" we also loose some of the game depth; content is again catered and leaning towards one end and not evened out a bit more.
Comments
The lack of large, greedy publishers is what made earlier MMOs deeper. The same thing happened to MMOs that happened to music after the 70s: the suits that were bankrolling the creativity just grew too enamored with min/maxing their own accounts.
That is the truth if i've ever heard it. Games today are less about PLAY than ever. The people who enjoy these games tends to be the ones that abuse the systems and or accept the systems.
WoW for instance the only people I know who thoroughly ENJOY playing the game are either:
A) Engage in RMT, Botting, and any form of Griefing they can muster. or
Sure there are plenty others that play the game, but I hardly ever see them get as excited about it as these to parties. The problem is the neither of them really engage in the PLAY that was created for them.
In the case of group A) I see them get excited all the time, They practically brag when they get banned and have to create new accounts and bot their way back up to the top. But they are playing 0% of the game. Their bots take them straight to the end game in a matter of days, then the rest of the time is spent griefing and completely ignoring any and all content.
Then there are the players in Group
, and again... they tend to power level straight to end game (sometimes legally sometimes not) and then sit there doing the same things over. I see them get excited about the game, because they got that piece of armor they are aiming for and it excites them. But.. again... a HUGE chunk of the game is getting skipped via PL, and then the part they are playing.. they are hardly playing. It's almost like a job. I see them get just as furious. Not because of the game but because of some newb who ruined their run. These people enjoy the game, but if anyone who isn't a hardcore raider has ever tried to play with these people. They suck the life out of the game. Everything is cold, tactical, pecise, and the smallest thing can bring down the overexagerated wrath of the entire group.
There are 2 things Current games lack 1) Investment and 2) Failure. WoW pretty much garunteed a return on investment and the only way it will fail is if someone screws up.
Risk and Reward was what older games had that current games dont. It is proven science that the more someone invests in a particular objective the more it will mean to them. Even in the event of failure, after the initial shock wears off their determination NOT to fail will increase and so will the perception that the objective is worth the extra investment. The overall pleasure when the goal is reached is maximized. Even the deep games of today are timid in enforcing any sort of real risk reward system. For fear of losing a player because the risk and loss was too great. So, they remove it not to create a great game but to capitalize on the income.
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Live a life less ordinary.
New MMOs are made to be games. Old MMOs were created as alternate reality.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
MMO players are i think.. generally more creative thinkers than those who don't.. dreamers maybe.. but.. imagination is a powerful thing.. especially if we're allowed to use it.. .. lately it seems that game developers don't seem to trust their players.. im glad CCP are not in that category
This is the problem with many modern gamers and music lovers, cynicism, I have a large music collection of great music from small and big record labels, from the 1930's to the present, all of it very creative and fun, I have also played and still do play games that are creative and fun its just you have to look for the great creative projects out there and just not expect them to be plopped into your lap with no effort. As with all entertainment spheres there are a few classics released every decade but the vast majority is just good honest fun and the notion that all game developers are greedy evildoers is just laughable to me.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Areas of improvement since (roughly) 2003:
Quest placement and pacing
Quest help (markers, more brief text, better grouping of quests/hubs)
The gameplay is more focussed
Graphics (dur)
accessibility
Areas that where way better before 2003:
Gameplay variety
lore (depends on the game)
support for long term play
community (in some very specific aspects, namely friendliness and support but not in communication)
My biggest gripe with modern MMO's (post 03) are that they seem to focus too much on a few elements of an MMO and don't flesh out their games enough. I seem to recall far more MMO's in 03 where I could do things other than just kill mobs. Yes most new games have crafting too but it's often an afterthought or just really really minor and insignificant. MMO's no longer feel like worlds but simply (terrible) extensions of single player RPG's.
If I wanted a good story I sure as hell wont look towards an MMO first, nor will I look for one if engaging combat is what I am after. Everything modern MMO's try to do is done far far better in other genres and they need to stop and realise that they can't just focus on a few aspects of the genre and get them 110% down pat (which they never do anyway) rather than creating new ways to engage in the world they create.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Lets not overlook the playerbase. It's amazing how much more social and helpful everyone was back then. You knew most people that played were more so than not just like you. I actually enjoyed helping and meeting new people and just talking.
I'm the complete opposite now in newer MMO's. With the huge influx on non traditional MMO fans, i find myself staying away and ignoring as many players as possible and only doing things in game with people i've known for a while. I barely speak with anyone not in my guild and i assume they're there to grief me in some way.
It's amazing how many similar things MMO's have with the music industry. The more mainstream things get, the more they suck. I remember what it was like being one of a select few that was part of a movement with a local band from the start. I felt part of something. It was about the music. Now it's about the business.
If you want the mmo industry to continue to develop old school mmos you need to start speaking with your wallet, and no I don't mean refusing to buy modern mmos.
Pick an existing mmo that has the design features you want in an old school mmo and convince half a million of your old school mmo buddys to sub and play actively for 6+ months, you'll see old school mmos poping out of the woodwork.
Why, because you just gave some developer 45 million + box sales.
Personally though, I don't think there's half a million that want an old school mmo. I think you'd be lucky to find more than a few thousand and that's just not worth a big developer's time and resources to make.
The way the games are built is also a huge factor.
When you don't promote socialization, and instead give more weight to convenience, what else could happen? It's not like most of us live in a society where we'd voluntarily interact with strangers without an agenda. If you give us an agenda, we will. And we are most likely better off for it.
Yet the developers, thinking that the current trend is the way to go, aren't helping. Non traditional MMO's attract non traditional MMO fans. Yet everything traditional is seen as "thing of the past" or "dated".
It's also hard to give a shit about the world when the developers clearly do not either. Sure they develop these cool dynamic events that shape the world, but that doesn't mean you give a crap about what is actually going on. At the same time, in a game without these things you may still care a lot more because there is a context that doesn't feel tackled on at the last minute to justify this cool super dynamic next-gen event's existence.
Where's the mystery? Where is the adventure? Why am I not craving to find out more about the world and see what's behind the seas on a distant continent teased by the devs? Why is everything laid out to me in advance and yet feel so cheap and overdone in an effort to make the game seem "epic"?
This disease plagues most new MMO's in existence. Gameplay is irrelevant if you don't give a shit.
Time sinks were just that time sinks. There is nothing challenging about doing something which requires a long time to accomplish or complete. The challenge is in activity itself not the time of amount required to do that activity. if that is what you consider challenge i am glad the MMOS have moved away from that philosphy. But a lot of asian F2P MMOS still use that design i am sure you would love it.
Most f2p games support socialisation by having mentor systems, group events and benefits for being in a guild, usually at the start they encourage you to build a friends list and work together. Games from the Orient are always about playing together and being social, how many western MMO's have ingame marriage? but many here just focus on US/European games that have lost that element.
Everybody was a n00b once in the lives and you are actively ignoring them and lableling them non-traditional MMO players but how can they be if MMO tradition by itself no longer exists? or you are not willing to educate them, makes it a bit tough to be a young n00b traditional MMO player doesn't it?
As for music I refer to my previous post, but will say there are 1000's of quality original albums released every year in 100's of genres and thats the way the MMO space has gone with many different types of MMO's for us to pick from now from TBS games to Ship Warfare games to Classic WoW styled themeparks to skill based crafting sandboxes pick ya poison its out there if you look for it. Expecting a AAA MMO company to realease your perfect game in unreasonable just like 75% of my record collection (yes I collect vinyl albums) is from small independent labels not the big four.
If EQ, AC, DAOC,UO were released today in the exact same state they were at release I can guarantee with todays knowledgable players the bugs and wonky gameplay would be pulled to peices and they would get nowhere near 100,000's of players that they did, ignorance is bliss and thats how they were successful.
Cal.
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Rewards have gotten completely out of hand and have ruined the mmo experience. The Industry is not fine.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I will give one part of old school MMORPG gameplay that newer ones in general just don't have.
Can you dedicate your character and playtime to nothing but non-combat stuff and still have alot of fun and enough things to keep you busy if you so chose that route?
There was a time in MMORPG gaming that players logged in all the time and never lifted a weapon, yet they had their kicks.
This leads into something MMORPGs used to strive for: A virtual world to do anything. I believe that was the aim with old school MMORPGs.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The one thing I see that people seem to be missing in this post is that people see WoW as the "only" modern day MMO when it is not. EQ2 has been on longer and is still putting out expansions and more content than WoW ever has. And yes most definately WoW has a burn out issue because of not enough sideline stuff. Everyone I know that plays WoW HAS to take breaks for long periods of time or they can not keep playing it.
Another thing is that something that was said in one of the lower posts struck my eye. Good social tools in WoW. Since when? As far as guilds ok but only if you are in a guild and have very close nit friends do you get to have a good social network on there. And here is why WoW does not have good social tools. LFG did away with people on same servers learning to work together so that when they get in a raid together they know how one another works. it also made tradechat useless for anything other than a mainstream troll, and gold spam line. No one has used tradechat for actually trading much in years other than hackers. They log in on a level one toon and spam for you to go to a site and spend real money on things that they hacked out of the game. Basically anyone can get anything they want for a price. If someone askes a simple question in chat on WoW they get treated like an idiot by everyone, hardly anyone can just give a straight out answer and help the person instead of belittling them.
I never played an MMO before WoW and it amazed me jsut to see what was in it. I see everyone saying why can't anyone make a good MMO anymore when some of the older ones have kept up with WoW and have more viabiliity for all players, more sideline content for everyone who enjoys gaming.
Another thing I found with WoW the only socializing is in dungeons and raids otherwise it is all solo content. I can honestly say the latest expansion from EQ2 I am not soloing the quests of coarse I was not in all raid gear going into it but in Cata as soon as you hit the first area you were out of raid gear and soloing anyway. I soloed everything in Cataclysm outside of dungeons on more than one toon. Sure some classes were more difficult to do it on but it was still all soloable.
I thought MMO meant "Massive Multiplayer online" for the reason that you don't have to do everything alone and that it was supposed to be for a social network.
And Yes I have loremaster on WoW and yeah I had some fun but as soon as I had loremaster the fun faded more and more as people in WoW only seemed to have one thing on their minds to do and that is to beat end content as fast as they can and get the best gear right now because if they don't they will get behind everyone else in gear and then the next raids and such will come out and they will be behind because some of the other guilds just go in and wipe things up like a mop. Not ever taking a moment to breath and smell the roses outside of dungeons and raids.
I have left WoW now and no I don't play the newest MMO because I don't find that it is for me so instead I went backward to find what I liked and where I fit in at. A game where even if you have a small guild you can still progress in certain ways that other guilds might progress in differently. No one is left out and there are tons of quests and you can choose to do them or raid or whatever you and the community you are playing with enjoy the most. Not feeling pressured to do something that you might not want to do. And still having a social network to where if you need help or want to help others those options are always available.
So ultimately and this is coming from someone who has played almost all of WoW's copntent I would have to totally agree with the OP in this thread. And believe me I loved WoW for a long time and would not say anything I have not come to feel myself about it and have witnessed/taken part in.
All I know is that I am actually playing an MMO that is older than WoW and seems to be so much better that it is not even funny. As well as it still puts out an expansion a year with more content updates throughout the year than WoW as far as all things in the game are concerned not just dungeons and raids. And the quests are much mroe in depth. In fact I like the fact that some quests require older quests to have been completed to finish the latest one and some that is may require may be as much as 50 or more levels lower than what max level is. And that the system to help people do this rewards anyone and everyone in some way or another.
I would say player nostalgia!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Older games were made to make money too.
You see, in the real world businesses need money. So, if Origin Systems didnt make money off Ultima Online they would have shut it down. They wouldnt have kept it going, losing money until eventual company bankruptcy, out of the goodness of their hearts and their love of the game.
But, here in wacky forum land it seems companies can pay employees and run servers with dreams and wishes.
Missed my point completely eh? The challenge is in learning how to efficiently manage and minimize the downtime, it actually takes skill and brains to learn how to do it well.
FTP's put grind in for grinds sake and its not the same thing at all. Fortunately there is still EVE in which it is still important to practice these skills.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I must concur with a few of my previous posters. Older games had more depth because the players did.
I hope thats sarcasm, cuz that just silliness.
All of these so called "mmo vets" that try to reason how much superior and intelligent they are than the "wow kiddies" now a days make me laugh, I'm sorry. I've met all types of people in mmo's, children, adults, teenagers, parents , and grandparents who have been in middle school to college, jobless, in the military, doctors, and retired. My point is... these vets need to get of their high horses, because your not somehow more intelligent or superior just because you found out about the genre earlier. The range of mmo players has grown, and you gotta live with it...and it doesn't make you better or have more "depth" than anybody.
And if your complaining about why modern mmo's are shallow, it's really not my problem, because there is many different types of mmo's. There is still mmo's that have depth, go play one of them, and let the people who just want to go home after a days work and relax in some themepark dungeon have their fun. Why do all of them have to be the way you like it?
It's the reason im usually subbed to two or three mmo's, sometimes i want to play a sandbox, sometimes i want to log in to a wow-ish game and que up for some harmless pvp.
Now, do I wish some high quality developer made a sandbox? Hell yes. Just give it time...archage is on the way, and hopefully more will follow.
The older MMO's were never really that much more deep. People just have a tendency to look back on things with fondness more. I remember for as much as I loved SWG back in the day, there was a lot of stuff in the game that was more of a hassle than fun.
You could also throw that at the end of all the other actual facets, like those described in this thread, of old school MMORPG gameplay that's superior than today's.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
SWG, eh?
Can you name me a newer MMORPG that let you do as much as SWG did before SOE nuked it?
The game in its "good days" definitely had problems and criticisms (deservedly). But it definitely had other viable forms of gameplay (again, crafting), freedom in character building, etc. What other newer MMORPG let players totally immerse themselves in non-combat aspects for all their game time? Where crafters / merchants are just as important to the community and game as a combat-oriented type? EVE is the closest, but that game came out in '03 (same as SWG).
Not to mention an oustanding community SWG once had.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Totally agree. Those "time sinks" often were not time sinks but actually strategic elements of the MMO. Now, some games were designed to have a lot less down time than others, but notice the key point there: DESIGNED. Having down time in your game is fine, but it should serve a purpose. Likewise, having little to no downtime is also fine, as long as you implement another way for the character to achieve the goals downtime was used for, such as socialization.
I find most modern games miss the point and are more worried about graphics and mass appeal than they are about proper pacing and meaningful actions.
And that's another big one... your actions in-game - especially in PVP - need to be meaningful. Pirates of the Burning Sea, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE, Wurm Online, Shores of Hazeron, even Ultima Online seem to get it. Other games just throw you into arena matches. Now, for games where that is the entire point (Guild Wars) that's fine, but don't promise people "MEANINGFUL PVP!!!!11!11!ONEELEVEN" and then give us WoW Battlegrounds.
I might be alone on this but I don't think it had to do with "older games having more depth" but older games having somewhat less of a standard and, as a result, having more freedon to pursue and develop their game. I have to bring up WoW in this light because, love it or hate it, its the one mmo that is mostly familiar and some developers hate moving too far awar from the curve and creating a system that takes elements too far from what WoW has boasted and used. I'm not saying WoW is the progenitor of what should/shouldn't be in an mmo but rather some features it has used, whether they created it or not, are features that players are used to having and this does limit and impact what developers do.
At one level, we see this present in an mmo like FF14 which launched and still has no auction house in the game. That was and still is one of the biggest gripes players have complained about on and off. Granted its just one area but how many games have features that are taken above a standard auction house in mmo's? Eve online has a culmination of player and npc auctions and FF14 uses npc vendors to sell items for players.
I think the issue of game immersion and depth has created [and catered too] different expectations because player attitudes have changed. I know players like myself who, at cutscenes, like to watch it and get an idea of what's going on. Then there are others who keep hitting the "Enter" button and want to get out of the CS asap and move onto the next mission. Both sides consume content but in different directions and, in some ways, depth is effected as well. For myself game content and immersion is a priority; for the latter end-game content, items and rewards are the priority.You have to admit this is a catch-22 for developers: you can't create a system that always makes everyone happy but you know you have an issue when you get players who look not at progression and transition but rather "what can I do when I get to the end" or "what can I do at the highest levels?" and have to deal with the fact that there is only so much content. I'd also add given the priority endgame has nowadays too, with so much emphasis on the "higher levels" we also loose some of the game depth; content is again catered and leaning towards one end and not evened out a bit more.
Oh well just my rant & rave lol!
SWG pre-NGE was a very indepth game, especially the Artisan skill tree. That alone puts more depth into game play than many past and current MMORPG's.